Catholics: would you support the idea of formally dividing Catholics into religious and less-religious or non-religious, but maintain a Catholic identity?

Catholic with a little c is a word already meaning universal.

If you are not a practicing Catholic, what binds you with other Catholics?

@Marina That you are a non-practicing catholic. What do you mean by “catholic with a little c is a word already meaning universal.” Universal what?

From Merriam Webster

”: comprehensive, universal; especially : broad in sympathies, tastes, or interests <a catholic taste in music>”

@Marina I know nothing about this definition, you are educating me :).

Some protestant Christians use little-c catholic to mean the early Christian church along with the “real” Christians that follow its teachings, as opposed to the later (evil) Roman Catholic church.

@Qingu Wait, I might need a history lesson. I always think of the Catholics as coming after the Jews and then the Protestans protesting the Catholic church, do I have that wrong? Sounds like, fom what you wrote, the “early Christian church” are not Catholics and came before the Catholics.

So, after Jesus, you had various sects of Christians competing with each other for a few hundred years. A number of these sects, in the tradition of Paul and Peter, developed an authority structure for their churches. (The word “church” originally just meant “assembly.”)

So this early Christian tradition, I believe, referred to itself as catholic, aka universal.

Then, in the 300’s A.D., Roman Emperor Constantine saw a magic floating cross in the sky (allegedly) and converts to Christianity.

Problem is, at this time, there’s all these different sects of Christians. So Constantine gets together a bunch of the heads of the sects and basically tells them (i.e. threatens them) to work out their differences and agree to a common doctrine. The aforementioned sects, allied with Peter and Paul’s traditions, win out.

At this point in history, you start getting two things:
1. A Christian church with political (and military) power
2. Official declarations of heresies and power to persecute them.

These two aspects quickly evolved into the Roman Catholic Church.

Fast-forward a thousand or so years ago, and Christians are pissed at the Roman Catholic Church for a variety of reasons. The Protestants saw themselves as reverting back to the Christianity practiced by the early Christians—i.e. the “universal” or “catholic” church, as opposed to the Roman Catholic church, corrupted by the Roman Empire, etc.

Of course, it isn’t all as neat and tidy as all this; Protestantism itself depended on many creeds and ideas formalized by Emperor Constantine’s councils (such as the Athanasian Creed, detailing the idea of the Trinity). But yes, there is some space—300 years or so—between the early Christians and what became known as the Roman Catholic Church.

@Qingu Thank you for taking the time to write that out. So if you are little c do you have a catholic church you can go to or are you one of the Protestan groups?

@JLeslie Orthodox, Conservative and Reformed Jews are all observant. They have different rituals and interpretations of Judaism in the same way Christian sects like the Amish, Presbyterians and Catholics have different rituals and interpretations of Christianity.

There may be something in your idea about non-practicing Catholics and Jews. I was raised and educated in the Catholic Church and it is so enmeshed in my culture that when I am asked about my religion I usually answer Catholic or raised Catholic. (Church members may refer to us as “fallen away or lapsed”. lol) This is because I eat, dress, and have an outlook very similar to what I learned as a child. I only attend church for family rituals out of respect for the beliefs of others but then I will attend other religions’ places of worship for those same weddings, funerals etc. Even though I don’t agree with some of the theology, including papal infallibility and assignment of sin, Catholicism is part of who I am, I think a lot of non-practicing Jews feel the same way.

I don’t think it necessary to label myself or others based on active participation in a church. That seems to be unduly divisive.

@JLeslie, I don’t think anyone used little-c catholic to identify themselves.

I believe the term “catholic” was used by Christians before Constantine, and then Constantine’s regime (i.e. Roman Catholic) started using it. Protestants don’t like Roman Catholics, but they do like the small-c early Christian catholics that their theology is supposedly modeled after.

But as far as I know, there aren’t “first catholic churches” in towns or anything, like “first Presbyterian church” or “first Lutheran church.” The term is really just a theological curiosity more than anything.

No. As someone who isn’t a catechized Catholic but attends a Catholic Church, I can say that the large size of the Catholic Church is a huge benefit. Why would we want to take that away by dividing everyone?

Even if everyone in the Catholic Church isn’t 100% uber-religious (I don’t do communion or confession), I think it’s a bad idea to subdivide it. Sometimes it’s good to be around people with slightly different beliefs and practices than you. I just don’t see a point.

Besides, Catholicism is a belief, not an identity. If you’re catholic, you could be Irish, German, Canadian, Hispanic, African-American, or even Chinese in nationality.

@Qingu catholic is a perfectly good word with a specific meaning. Just because it isn’t part of your vocabulary, to call it a curiosity is balderdash < ; P

To answer the question, I’m not a Catholic… and I used to be a Jew, but I would not consider myself a Jew anymore, because I don’t believe in the Jewish god, Yahweh.

I’m actually pretty hard-set against the idea that someone can be “culturally Jewish” or, by extension, “culturally Catholic.” In some senses, I share a common culture with Jews—I like matzo ball soup and I still have memorized in my brain a bunch of Hebrew songs. But if we define religions in terms of their associated cultures, that means you can’t ever leave them, even if you believe in none of the central dogmas of the religion. And that kind of definition sounds nonsensical to me.

Another problem with the “cultural” definition—it only applies to lapsed religious people. So if you’re a Jew and you stop believing in the Jewish religion, you’re still “culturally Jewish.” But if you’re a Jew who converts to Islam—but who still enjoys matzo ball soup and knows Hebrew songs—what then?

For my part, the Jewish-influenced part of my culture is a relatively insignificant part of my total personality. It doesn’t really give someone good information about who I am. So it seems an odd label to affix from that angle as well.

@galileogirl Many reformed Jews are not observant, over half are atheists by many estimates. I consider myself a Reformed Jew, so among Jews they know that basically I am not religious and that I don’t keep kosher in my home, etc. You said that you don’t want to label yourself as actively participating or not, but I guess my point is if you are labeled you can seek out others just like you and maybe feel more comfortable. Not that I am trying to imply you are uncomfortable. For me personally I don’t care atht much about the labels because I don’t go to synogogue, so I don’t worry much about fitting in, but for instance when I got married by a reformed Rabbi it didn’t feel disengenuous to me, because I know he doesn’t keep Kosher either. There is a huge group of Jewish people just like me who are comfortable calling ourselves Jewish and not following every word of the old testament.

@galileogirl, I didn’t say small-c catholic doesn’t have a specific meaning. Just that its meaning is sort of obscure outside of Christian theological discussions.

Unless you happen to speak koine Greek, I guess…

@FrogOnFire Your point is well taken about strength in numbers so to speak. But I am an American and Jewish and an atheist and not relgious. Many Jews see Judaism as not only a religion, but also an ethnicity, some go as far to say race, but I don’t. Most Catholics I know seem to want to hold onto their Catholic identity even if they fall away from the church in many other ways. But, I realize my assumptions might be wrong on the feeling I am putting onto Catholics, that is why I asked the question, to clarify how Catholics feel about it. Thanks for your answer :).

@Qingu Just read your answer about being “Jewish” and totally respect that you no longer identify Jewish and reject the cultural definition. I think it is completely logical that if we attach Judaism to a culture you can never leave it even if you reject all of the religious stuff. Here is the thing, I always feel like the outside world doesn’t let Jews really do that, doesn’t let us say, “we are not Jewish.” If you had said to Hitler, I am no longer a Jew, would he have let you live? I guess you can argue that after generations it would be forgotten that you are/were Jewish, like the Spaniards who were forced to convert.

@JLeslie That’s quite an assumption that people who don’t follow the tenets of a particular religion NEED or WANT to seek out others just like us. You say you don’t but this was your question implying there should be labels.

@JLeslie I think you’re somewhat right about that. It reminds me of the joke with the 3 churches with mouse infestations. The Methodists give the mice food in hope they’ll go away, but the mice come back. The baptists try to kill the mice, but more just come back. The Catholics, on the other hand, convert the mice to Catholicism. Now they only come back on Christmas and Easter.

Of course, the joke just represents a common stereotype and in no way generalizes all Catholics.

@galileogirl I am ASKING if you want to, not telling you that you should.

@JLeslie, I agree about the “outside world” refusing to let Jews “leave” their religion—by characterizing it as a permanent cultural trait or, even stupider, a race—which is why it’s a shame to see so many Jews doing this as well.

I get especially peeved at Jews (and, I guess, non-Jews) who claim that you’re Jewish if your mom is Jewish. Presumably through some kind of magical Jewish mitochondrial DNA? Hrmph!

@JLeslie: small-c catholic means universal. The Roman Catholic church, some Orthodox churches, and some Protestant churches see themselves as small-c catholic, which means that they are part of the one true universal church that everyone belongs to.

The difference is that the theology of a church that holds itself to be small-c catholic will see other Christians as fellow believers who have a few major differences of opinion, while a church that is not small-c catholic will see other Christians as not like us and damned to hell for their errors.

@Qingu I started to acquire a stronger Jewish identity in my late teens. I am proud of how the Jews have survived over 5,000 years, I identify with their pursuit of knowledge, their desire to “argue,” zeal for the sciences, and more. Of course other people who are not Jewish have similar values, but it seems easy for me to just accept the label, because of what I associate Judaism with. Especially since I have the option of being a reformed Jew. If everyone was Orthodox I would probably be out.

Personally I wish the Jews would just go the way of the ancient Greeks or Babylonians (not that their religion was that much different from ancient Babylonian religions to begin with). Screw survival when the theology you’re clinging to is so morally warped and obviously false.

Edit: apologies if that comes off as a personal attack. Or, worse, an invitation to Holocaust, Round 2. It’s a discussion I get into with my Jewish grandparents alot.

@cwilbur So how do you know which churches are small c? Or, the Christians just know because they know? I still feel confused. I’m glad to learn something new—Fluther is so awesome.

@Qingu Don’t you basically feel that about all religions then? Or, do you have one you identify with? Previously, I thought the same thing, that all things come to an end, even Judaism like the ancients Greeks etc., but I changed my thinking over time. If the world could have all religion dissapear I might go for that. I don’t know how to make the font little, I never could figure it out.

@JLeslie, yeah, I definitely feel that way about all religions. (And to make the font little, put two hyphens before your text and two hyphens after it. Look below the box you write in, the word “whisper”—that’s the arrangement of hyphens you use to make it small.)

To further my point: I have a girlfriend who had always gone to conservative temple as a child and an adult. In her early 50’s she moved to a different state, and for some reason in her new city she joined a Reformed Temple. When she told me where she had joined one of the first things out of her mouth was, “it’s great, I don’t have to hide that I eat shrimp.” That’s the type of thing I am talking about, you don’t have to follow the religion strictly and you don’t have to hide anything or put on a false facade. So many Catholics fit into this category.

Oh, you mean the Cafeterians.

@JLeslie: you study what they believe. Most Christians will be happy to expound on what sets their church apart from the others.

Someone may have said this, but I say it has already happened.

Catholic and Lapsed-Catholic.

Ok, I didn’t read it all, but here is what my answer is. There is the Roman Catholic Church. And yeah, that’s the only Catholic church. Now, we have sort of, I don’t know, “titles for some.” Like those who have fallen away are lukewarm. Those who pick and choose are cafeteria. Even though its used, its not official.
@Qingu Wow. You really generalize things.