Is it possible to have a genderless society?
In a sociology course I just took, we spoke about this thought. What are your thoughts?
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Genderless as in unisex? No difference between males and females? or everybody with the ability to choose being neuter, as in asexual, like is portrayed in John Varley’s Steel Beach, where people can decide to be either male, female or neuter and have no external sexual characteristics?
Like the line in the Kinks song, Lola “Boys will girls and girls will be boys, it’s a mixed-up world” is that what you mean?
Personally, if that is what you mean, I agree with the monkey man, what fun would that be?
No thanks. I like being a woman.
There’s a verse from a favorite song of mine that goes:
you cannot go against nature
because when you do
go against nature
that’s part of nature too
… no new tale to tell…
No, not as long as we’ve got these things, and they have those things.
No, it wouldn’t work because of visible and emotional differences, it might be possible for equal treatment in many respects, but nothing is going to change the fact that we are different.
as soon as we all transfer our minds into robots.
You could have a remote forum something like Fluther… (or like some multi-player computer games – e.g. Quake) where the discussions don’t include sexual topics.
Unisex styles were fashionable for a while in the sixties, but they didn’t really catch on. Most people seem to prefer to differentiate. I am very comfortable in jeans and would hate to have to wear a dress all the time as my mother did, but there’s a part of me that even wishes we differentiated as much as this.
Well first of all you’d have to think of the practical side of it, ie how we’d be led there to start with. How would people reproduce? Incubators for example? Would we have only one gender (eg only women, with infinite amounts of sperm frozen in sperm banks so that they could use it to have children whenever they felt like it, then genetically modified them to make sure they were girls)?
Or are you referring to a society where the gender exists, but is hidden (eg the dwarves in Discworld, where both men and women have beards and dress the same way, but actually have different genitals, which only matter when they want to reproduce)? This is actually feasible. I can imagine that, what with women shaving their heads and men shaving their chests, we can soon see a world of uniform, skinny people, all hairless.
Men will still have genitals, hidden under their clothes (the same clothes that women already wear), and women’s breasts would be so small as to be practically invisible (especially if fashion does away with bras and the tops are also unisex). There are already girls that could pass as boys, perhaps this type of neutral look could become the norm. And if everyone turns out to be bi, then gender will become insignificant. You could pick someone up at a bar, not knowing what they’ve got packed in their pants until you get home. Just like women today can be (un)pleasantly surprised with a larger or smaller penis, everyone in this society would then have to wait to find out whether their sex partner had a penis at all.
All this still sounds very far-fetched, and personally I’d hate such a scenario, but then again I’m a 20th century heterosexual male. I imagine that over the next couple of centuries our society could change towards that, and some people even today might find all this appealing.
They did an episode of Star Trek Voyager with that scenario and it was not a happy society. And they were pretty much brainwashed into it from early childhoo on. If anyone started showing feelings for being one or the other, they had to be “re-educated” and get a mind wipe.
Make my vote a no on that.
Actually, it was ST NextGen for anyone interested
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/The_Outcast
“I am female. I was born that way. I have had those feelings, those longings, all of my life. It is not unnatural. I am not sick because I feel this way. I do not need to be helped. I do not need to be cured. What I need, and what all of those who are like me need, is your understanding. And your compassion. We have not injured you in any way. And yet we are scorned and attacked. And all because we are different. What we do is no different from what you do. We talk and laugh. We complain about work. And we wonder about growing old. We talk about our families and we worry about the future. And we cry with each other when things seem hopeless. All of the loving things that you do with each other – that is what we do. And for that we are called misfits, and deviants and criminals. What right do you have to punish us? What right do you have to change us? What makes you think you can dictate how people love each other?”
- Soren, to Noor
corals are one of the most beautiful things on earth…
Gender is a man-made description of specific biological attributes. The only way I could see getting a genderless society is if we change our definitions, i.e., instead of identifying a man or a woman we would identify a “human, some having a penis and others having a vagina”. Much the same way that we currently say “human, some are black, some are white…” or “human, some have black hair some have blonde”.
No, or we would eventually not exists.
who knows…gender roles always seem to be in question and evolving…maybe they are just things that change as culture develops…they have in the past
i love being a woman.
What I don’t love is making less money for the same job as men, being told if I am sexually harassed that I should have dressed a different way or not walked in that hour of in that place.
What I don’t love is the assumption that women should have preference in custody arrangements or that men who choose careers in dance or the arts are mocked.
What I would like to see rather than a genderless society is a more equal opportunity society. In our patriarchy women have some ways to go to get equality, but there are some areas in which men do not receive equal treatment either.
but also I dont see it happening anytime soon
@Marina hey I thought this was a men-only site! Who allowed HER online?
Good points (you forgot female lorry/taxi drivers and male babysitters), though for me they’re more a result of human stupidity, which is genderless, borderless and, above all, infinite.
Yes, I think that gender becomes obsolete at some point in our evolution.
Obviously the physiological attributes of gender won’t go away. So, physiologically, it’s extremely unlikely. However, sociologically, it’s another question. Could gender constructs go away, so that everyone would treat everyone else as if we were all the same gender?
Let’s assume that we ignore the differences that physiology causes in terms of social behavior. Could we eliminate the differences in aggressiveness, empathy, shopping behavior, importance of looks, etc., etc? It’s hard to see how that would be possible.
And, of course, once you add back in the effect of different physiology and different body chemistry (estrogen vs testosterone), there’s no hope of reaching a genderless society.
This, of course, begs the question of why you might want a genderless society? Variety is the spice of life. Seems to me we’d want more genders, not fewer. But then, I like a spicy woman! Or a spicy anyone. Your mileage may vary.
yeah I agree with @Quagmire and @doggywuv
gender norms are norms put upon physical categories such as biological sex
we don’t need these norms, everyone should be free to act however they want
people will figure out who to sleep with, don’t you worry
How can we have a genderless society when people don’t even know the difference between sex and gender?
We could, but we never will. Dichotomy is embedded in our psyches, our language, and our culture.
@tinyfaery people don’t know the difference but that doesn’t mean it’s not possible…it just means it a far far far away possibility and maybe only for some people, some communities
I thought I said it was possible?
@tinyfaery you said we’ll never have it – i think it’s possible we’ll have it
Oh, right. Yeah. It’ll never happen. At least not in this lifetime.
Isn’t sexual attraction gender based?
Boy and Man are two flavors of the masculine gender; Girl and Woman, two flavors of the feminine gender. There are many further gender distinctions, such as Young Woman, Mature Woman, Old Crone. Within one age stratum there are even further differentiated gender styles, such as Jock, Nerd, Androgynous or Effeminate among the young male flavors of masculinity.
It would seem that any presentation of self inextricably and necessarily involves some presentation of one’s gender as a simple consequence of being of a particular sex, age or stylistic idioms in how we express these. So, I would have to say, “No, there can not be a society without gender, any more than there can be a society in which age, sex and style are irrellevant.”
In a genderless society there would be no “sexuality” per se. Sexual preference, I submit, is fundamentally an aesthetic preference for a particular gender style; notably, one that is complimentary or compatable with one’s own. In a society without gender people would be fairly indiscriminate in whom they choose to couple with, which would more or less defeat any evolutionary benefit to sexual selection. Or, to put it the other way around, the reason we have so many nuances of gender is because we have sexual selection.
History has shown that social groups usually add gender classifications instead of ridding of it. i.e. homosexuals, gender transformations, etc.
Gender is also closely tied to social hierarchy and roles as their basis.
For instance, some cultures treat men as leaders while others treat women as those who hold power. There are some historically that hold the third gender in high value, while others ridicule them.
@derekpaperscissors agreed. of course it’s tied to social hierarchies, that’s one of the purpose of gender norms and why they’re more harmful than useful
Ahh…gender is not inherent or biological and has nothing to do with sexual preference. <<Screams in head, again.>>
@tinyfaery What make a person “sexy” is it their “parts” or how they act? To put it another way are “manly” men more sexy that “effeminate” men?
@MontyZuma what, to me or to people? evolutionary drive, unknown as of yet genetic factors and socialization
@Simone_De_Beauvoir What turns you on sexually, “parts” or style?
For me, it is the person’s style and the way they present their “parts,” not so much the parts themselves. I think beauty and ugliness fall more within the realm of gender, which I see as consisting of many, many idioms of masculinity and femininity. (See the larger of my two posts above.) When I look at a person in a sexual way, I am looking at the person, and only incidentally, their body. The last thing I am thinking about is evolution.
It can be what you do not see that attracts you, pheromones and such.
We just over exaggerate it these days with perfume, tight clothing and lipstick.
Bottom line, the goal is to mate. We do our best, un unbenounced to us, in some cases, that we are sending signals out to attract the opposite sex for that purpose.
@ChazMaz I don’t think so. People tend to have a very narrow range of people they are attracted to. People tend to have a preference for one sex or the other. Within that sex, they tend to have an age preference. And within that age range, they tend to have a range of “types” that are defined more by stylistic idioms than by visual or olfactory stimuli. If it were pheromones, we would be much more indiscriminate in our sexuality. I’m not saying it has no effect, but from everything we know, these are very minor influences.
And not everyone is attracted to the opposite sex.
“they tend to have a range of “types” ”
That is, for the most part, something that our materialistic society has created.
“And not everyone is attracted to the opposite sex.”
That is a whole other discussion. But, does not change from the basic fundamental that our purpose is to keep the species going.
@MontyZuma I look for people not parts, obviously…but I’m queer
@Simone_De_Beauvoir why would you being attracted to people as opposed to “parts” make you different from other people just because you’re “queer” (by which I gather you mean homosexual)? My point is, that I think gender is a characteristic of the whole person, whereas “parts” are a characteristic of their bodies. I think that most people are sexually attracted the whole person (i.e., their gender), and not so much their sexual parts per se.
@MontyZuma no by that I don’t mean homosexual, I mean queer – as in attracted to all genders which is why I mentioned it, because it doesn’t matter to me the parts, but the person…and people do care about other’s parts because it is apparently uber important to them to be really straight or what have you
Good question. I saw this came up in a sociology class you took. I am getting my Ph.D. in sociology (I study race, class, and gender). The nutshell opinion I have is…no. Gender is not a biologically determined characteristic. It is created via roles and customs. To complicate things more gender is highly intertwined with the political, economic, and ideological ways and means of our society. To eliminate gender somehow, therefore, would mean a very complicated re-ordering of social institutions. (In fact, some theorists argue that gender is, in fact, a social institution. If this idea interests you read Patricia Yancey Martin).
Furthermore, because there is not one type of each gender (there are many forms of masculinity and femininity——i.e. hegemonic masculinity) the elimination of gender would be too difficult.
—Lastly, why eliminate it in the first place???
I disagree that the concept of gender does harm. “Gender” as a concept doesn’t do bad things. We use gender as a social tool. Just as we use social class and ethnicity. None of these things are bad. Inequality is, of course, “bad”. Gender is one way we relate to each other. This reminds me of a similar topic. I recently wrote and presented a paper on “The myth of a color blind society”. The argument that many have suggested is that race is “bad” and b/c we have now “outlawed” racism, it no longer exists. I disagree completely. I argued in that paper that race (like gender) are important concepts that should exist, have a vital role in society, and most likely always will exist. Simply stating that gender (or race) can be harmful detracts from the actual inequality that is built w/in social systems (be they the law, education, economic systems, etc.).
@jenandcolin I am of the camp that believes it is a not necessary as a concept or as a social tool, whatsoever…that it exists a lot less for understanding society than for perpetuating inequality…as you say…and there is no reason to bring equality between genders, it’s better to just get rid of the idea all together, imo…because gender norms and inequality go hand in hand…when you don’t need the inequality, you don’t need the norms
Getting rid of the concept doesn’t get rid of the behavior.
@daloon it would get rid of a lot of the forced behaviour or what the differences in behaviour means – children don’t know gender and if it wasn’t put on them, they’d know some people are different and some have this or that between their legs bu they wouldn’t learn what they CAN’T do
@Simone_De_Beauvoir But you’re talking about a complete change in social attitudes. It’s not the words or even what you think about it, but it’s how people behave, and that goes beyond thought. Thoughts come from behavior, not the other way around. Our behavior does stem from our form and capabilities.
We can wish for freedom to be whoever we want to be all that we want, but we can’t get past society. If we want to be free, we have to just take our freedom, and ignore the disapproval. We have to support each other in removing the shame from behavior that society thinks is weird.
We’ll never have a genderless society, and I’m not sure we even want that. What we really want, I believe, is more freedom to express ourselves as we feel without being judged as weird or unnatural for it. Nature contains many possibilities. Yet society likes to clamp those possibilities down, because people have no clue what to do when they are outside their comfort zones. They have no idea what others will think about them.
That’s what locks us into gender roles. It’s not an idea. It’s not something that people even think. It’s just what they do, and it’s not something we’ll ever do away with. All we can do is to fight for more freedom from judgment over things that truly are about expression, and really don’t hurt anybody else.
@daloon yes a complete shift in societal attitudes would be great – no it’s not realistic, i get it…but there are enough of us who’d give it a try
@Simone_De_Beauvoir Would give it a try? How about are giving it a try? We are all constrained by notions of appropriate sex roles, only most of us have no idea what it’s doing to us. All we can do is stand up for what’s right as often as we’ve stomach for doing it.
I have to admit that it tears at me. Today, at the used clothes store, my son wanted to buy necklaces, which I would have bought, had they had any. But when he was looking at the ball gowns with lust in his eyes—in a perfect world, I would have no trouble getting him one. In our world…. well, let’s just say I’m pretty much of a chicken. Buuuck. Buck buck!
@daloon exactly and i wish you could buy those for him – and i wish no one would bother him…but that’s the thing…if we as parents agreed to this somehow together…it would get better
Well, Halloween is just around the corner. If he reeaaallly wants that ball gown…
How old is he, if you don’t mind my asking?
I do face painting at parties and festivals and I get a significant number of kids of both genders who want something that the parents don’t consider is “appropriate” and I usually do my best to get the kid what they want. This type of fantasy stuff is so normal for young kids and I do my best to explain that to the parents.
It’s just pretend, I say to them. The other thing I to and try to remember to put a smile on my face and keep it light is to tell them that my policy is that I won’t paint something that a child actively dislikes. After all, it’s their face, isn’t it?
At least that way hopefully some kind of compromise can be achieved. What’s the matter with a girl Batman or a boy wanting to be Minnie Mouse cuz he likes the exaggerated eyelashes? I kid you not.
The one that sticks out in my memory most is a little four year old boy who fell in love with the hot pink paint color I had ( it really is spectacular, he had great taste) and definitely wanted hot pink hearts on his cheeks. Of course the parents are having half a heart attack over it. They’re telling me to paint him with the tiger face and he’s got tears in his eyes at the thought.
I told them I don’t impose something on a child which he clearly didn’t want. So they keep trying to arm twist him into every macho design on my board but he held firm. He had his heart set on hot pink hearts on his cheeks. I mean these ninnies are trying to resort to shaming him by saying that’s only a color for girls. He doesn’t want his friends to think he’s a sissy, bla bla bla
So since they were all focused I asked them if blue hearts would be ok. They agreed to that but this poor little guy still wasn’t happy. So I pointed that out to them and suggested a blue heart with the pink on the inside. They finally agreed to that, the kid was going along with it and I’m sure that their idea of what it would finally look like and mine were quite different. You never saw a narrower blue border on a fat pink heart in all your life.
When he looked in the mirror the little guy was beaming.
One little step at a time….
BTW. I wouldn’t be in the least surprised if this kid grows up to be an average heterosexual guy happily married to a wife who can count on him for decorating advice because of his fabulous color instincts.
:D
That hot pink is the best one in my entire color pallette. ALL the kids of any gender love it’s vividness and I go through 4x as many containers of that compared to any other color except black ( which uses up a lot for line definition and such)
Obviously kids grow out of the vivid, eye-popping stage as they age but it’s fun while it lasts.
I’m fairly certain the little guy won’t be painting his walls that color but for a few brief moments as a four year old he had a blast.
My son is nine. He likes nail polish and over the summer, his older sister and their teen minder gave him makeovers a few times, and he loves it. He likes dressing up, I guess. It’s strange to me, since I feel completely at a loss around clothes. Or maybe I just don’t want to stand out. And usually he doesn’t like to stand out, but I guess in the safety of his own home he doesn’t mind.
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