Social Question

w2pow2's avatar

Why did President Obama pardon the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing?

Asked by w2pow2 (490points) August 20th, 2009

I’ve heard a little on the subject but not much. I seek enlightenment. I’m sure there’s a good reason why he did so but can someone please explain it to me?

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81 Answers

w2pow2's avatar

Mr. President… you got esplainin to do.

augustlan's avatar

Can you provide a link to this information?

kyanblue's avatar

I’m having a little difficulty finding an impartial news source to read more about this. I second the link request.

w2pow2's avatar

Only wikipedia. Am I the only one who trusts wikipedia?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_al-Rahim_al-Nashiri
Now it says that the charges may be refiled but they were dropped in February! WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON!?!?!

sandystrachan's avatar

The guy was tortured that is against the law , what difference does it really make him being released . Isn’t everyone getting released or have been released from Guantanamo ?
Could this be the US Presidents plan all along , releasing terrorists so they and he can bomb places ? JK

ragingloli's avatar

yes, the guy was tortured, which makes his confession worthless, his conviction becomes unrightful and as such a reversal of it is the only right choice.
no if they want to repeat the trial, but this time without torture, then so be it.

filmfann's avatar

To refile, they will need to build a chinese wall, so that no previous evidence obtained by his confession (due to torture) taints it.
Bush fucked us.

w2pow2's avatar

Not only did he admit to the USS Cole bombing but he also admitted to
-Attempting to sink the USS The Sullivans in 2000.
-Becoming the chief of operations for the Arabian Peninsula
-Organizing the Limburg Tank bombing in 2002
I REALLY REALY REALLY don’t think it’s a question of if we have the right guy or not. And if the only way you can defend the President’s decision is by saying that al-Nashiri’s confession is not valid due to torture… Well… Words cannot describe how much that FAILS to put my mind to rest.
You need to do better than that. You need to dig deeper.

ragingloli's avatar

@w2pow2
that is really all that is needed.
Torture does not work to produce true information. Torture produces false information. It makes people say what the torturer wants to hear, even if it is not true, just to make them stop torturing. It makes people lie.
There is an extremely high probability that his confessions were lies.
Which means that it is extremely likely that he is innocent.
So yes, it is a question of whether we have the right guy, because we probably have the wrong one.

ragingloli's avatar

an example.
why do you think there were so many convictions for witch craft and sorcery during the time of the holy inquisition? Because they were all truly witches?

kyanblue's avatar

My mind would not be at rest if we went on the basis of confessions that were extracted through torture. Like @ragingloli says, the primary objective of someone being tortured is to make the pain stop, any way possible. This usually means saying what the torturers want to hear—a confession.

There have been incidents where overzealous police questioning has led to people confessing to crimes they never did. And in a more trivial example, if a friend is extremely upset with me for doing something I didn’t do, I might just cop to doing it and apologize, if that’s the best way to calm my friend down.

w2pow2's avatar

@kyanblue I would like you to meet Khalid Sheik Mohammad. Mr. M played a big part in the attack on 9/11. Yeah he was one of the masterminds. When the CIA asked him about potential future attacks he said “You will soon know”.
SOOOO we took Khalid to Guantanamo and water boarded his diluted backside. And dude the COOLEST thing happened- He gave us information that thwarted an attack (Something that he called the “Second Wave”. Oh Khalid! You’re a real character!) against a building in LA. Aren’t you thankful that activity in Guantanamo was able to save a whole bunch of lives? If the people at club Gitmo didn’t push that guy to the point where he broke, a whole lot of children would have to attend their parent’s funerals.
And that’s why I’m up to TORTURING these people who would gladly kill hundreds of INNOCENT civilians!
Oh BTW the info of that thwarted terrorist attack was released by Obama himself! So I think it’s pretty accurate.
As to the part where he COULD be lying- Do you think that the CIA goes off of the confession ALONE? There are many ways to tell if someone is lying, not to mention they could cross-reference it with information they already have! I think that the CIA or CTU is smarter than that. The operatives there probably get a hundred lies a day! And they probably know how to rule-out the lies. Cause if they’re getting lies every five seconds, and the CIA believes those lies every five seconds, it’s ganna get to a point where they’re going to look REAL stupid! And that’s not good for anyone. That’s how CIA operatives lose their jobs.
Another reason- holding innocent people at Gitmo is COSTLY! Those people are required by law to have three square meals a day and adequate hydration. That can get real expensive man! Nobody wants to hold them if they’re innocent.
Witch trials: I’m not sure how many people could miss this. Ok let’s get one thing straight: YOU DON’T HAVE TO MAKE FIRE COME OUT OF YOUR FINGERTIPS IN ORDER TO BE A WITCH! All you have to do is devote yourself to the study of witchcraft. All you have to do to PERFORM witchcraft is a simple ritual. Whether you can cast a spell on someone is irrelevant.
SO have you ever considered that maybe, just MAYBE, the people who were accused of being witches were just VERY delusional and actually BELIEVED they were witches? What if it was just a crazy rebellion? I think there’s no way to prove it but I think that it is definitely a possibility. If you don’t think it’s a possibility then why not?
BUT it appears that we have digressed so lets get back to that terrorist thing.
It’s extremely likely that he’s innocent? Have you looked at this guy’s history?
And how on earth can you be against methods like water boarding if it’s already been proved that the lack of doing so will cost lives! Ahhhh I’m glad that you’re willing to trade OTHER people’s lives for the sake of YOUR morals!
For the people who are against torture- I understand where your coming from and I actually kind of admire the attempt to be morale. But I think a lot of people need to take a few steps back and look at the big picture. Is it moral to gamble with other people’s lives? Is it immoral to harm someone who is evil, no less?

augustlan's avatar

Torture is immoral. Period. The end.

dalepetrie's avatar

Shit, you could get me to admit to kindapping the Lindberg baby if you waterboarded me long enough, and I wasn’t even BORN yet.

sandystrachan's avatar

Look back at my history i used to play with fire and loved to burn things , does that mean i am an arsonist . If you looked at what i did and had me confess to it , it would suggest i was even your C.I.A would convict me of it . The law no matter how high up they are make mistakes , if you want to get the guy start a fresh scrap all evidence and work again . If the evidence works out then they guy might get convicted , tho no matter what anyone says here you wont listen or care . You can’t take the evidence of a man who was tortured even i know that . Work the law not around it thats what Bush did and he fucked your erse royally

kyanblue's avatar

I have never said that I believe he is innocent. I don’t know enough about his case to state a clear opinion on it; I’m just preoccupied with your support of torture.

There are other methods of getting information from people that may be more reliable—I’m pretty sure there was an article in TIME recently, where an intelligence officer was interviewed, and he told his experiences of essentially manipulating someone through civility (showing Americans are human) and gradually turning him against his employers or former cronies. Information surrendered willingly is more likely to be accurate.

& on the witches…I think it’s highly unlikely that everyone (or even the majority) accused and killed during the Salem witch trials were consciously trying to practice witchcraft and this is another leap of faith to believe that witchcraft is exists and can be practiced. In many trials, the evidence against a suspected witch came from the testimony of one person, and it could be that they saw a ‘vision’ of someone who had cursed them (which is something that can’t be confirmed by another witness, and is easy to make up).

Or the ‘evidence’ could have been one of the following: remaining calm during arrest & question; showing fear; having a mole on your body that, if pricked, would not cause pain; testimony (possibly gained through torture or harsh questioning) from another confirmed witch; not attending church regularly; attending regularly (and presumably relaying it back to the Devil)...

They could easily have accused anyone with these parameters.

w2pow2's avatar

@kyanblue have you ever tried to personally “undilute” someone? I think we all have on some level. And I think you agree when I say that some people are so out in left field that they will never embrace reality.
And I think that we can all agree that the Taliban brainwashes it’s people extremely well.
For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FHHZ-BOMuI&feature=channel
I once saw a video of a girl, who couldn’t be no more than 7, screaming out radical Islamic poetry with all her heart.
And thank god some of those people have the sense to take a few steps back and question their own religion! IT HAS HAPPENED!
But again, there are the vast majority who are strongly diluted and refuse to seek enlightenment.
So I ask you, how many Taliban operatives are going to turn because they were shown the truth? Ten? Twelve?
If you honestly believe that is a reliable method than you misjudge those crazy people that call themselves the Taliban. You gotta understand that THESE PEOPLE ARE CRAZY VERGING ON PSYCHOTIC! They don’t reason like we do. You have an opinion, but then find an opposing viewpoint, and so you change your opinion. You gotta understand with these people that THERE ARE NO OPPOSING VIEWPOINTS! And opinions are scarce to come across with them. No, seriously, everybody there thinks the same thing. Could you imagine what it would be like if ALL of America was Christian? Jewish? Atheist?
... Yeah neither can I. And I wouldn’t have it any other way.
So when you say that you think that showing them the truth is a reliable method, I say that you say that because you misunderstand them.
And after a few minutes of google search, I’ve already found out that information surrendered by torture is good enough to thwart a terrorist attack.
And as for those silly witches, please verify your sources. Not that I disagree with you, I think that it was probably a very corrupt system back then.
Oh and I think witchcraft is obviously BS! But what I was saying before is all you have to do is study witchcraft to be a witch. Nobody cares if you can do anything with it. Witchcraft is more like a religion.

w2pow2's avatar

I know that the idea that torture can actually yield some reliable information is new to you, but I think you just need to take a few steps back.

dalepetrie's avatar

@w2pow2here you can see former FBI interrogator Jack Cloonan explain why regular interrogation techniques are MORE effective, and why tactics like waterboarding do more harm than good.

Here’s a well researched article from the Washington Post which decisively dispels a lot of the misconceptions that only liberals are against torture, by quoting strong military interrogators who have been there and know what works and what doesn’t.

How about one from the Christian Science Monitor…hardly a liberal haven?

Or how about this opinion piece by a 14 year Air Force veteran who has served in 3 wars as an interrogation team leader and has received a Bronze Star?

And from the Army Field Manual 34–52 Chapter One,

“the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.”

A quote which I found along with those of several other military authorities on the subject, which you can read here.

Bottom line is, regardless of what bleeding heart liberals like myself believe, centuries of documented history regarding the use of torture show it to be a technique that in ALL cases is LESS effective than non-torture techniques. It’s preferable to earn the subject’s trust, find out what they most desire and promise it to them, regardless of whether you can deliver (or even intend to). The reason torture doesn’t work is basically Psychology 101. If I am hurting you, you are thinking 2 things. 1) How do I get this asshole to stop hurting me, and 2) What can I tell this asshole who is hurting me that won’t help the miserable prick?

If you’re being tortured you will quickly assess what the person wants to hear and tell them what they want to hear. It’s always been this way. There have been numerous studies about this which point to the fact that the information gathered by torture is statistically LESS valuable than that gathered by other methods.

But if you want to disagree with everyone, including the people who actually do it for a living, it’s a free country.

augustlan's avatar

@w2pow2 And BTW, the word you want is deluded, not diluted. Just for future reference.

w2pow2's avatar

@dalepetrie Alright I’ll admit I’m almost halfway convinced. I’ll think about this and I’ll comment in a couple.

dalepetrie's avatar

@w2pow2 – I’ll look forward to reading it!

w2pow2's avatar

Ok you got me. I’m convinced. Other methods seem to be more reliable.
But back to the main topic: I want to find out if Al- Nashir is innocent or not. Can anyone give me the date of his confessions? It says in 2004 that he didn’t show up to a Yemeni court and as a result, he was sentenced to death. Does he have an excuse for not showing up?
Now I know that torture may not be as reliable as other tactics, but it is not without some merit. As I said before, it thwarted a terrorist attack. So this guy could be guilty as charged.
But one things for sure: He’s a bad guy. When you look at his confirmed history, you can be sure that he’s an enemy.

sandystrachan's avatar

@w2pow2 Could his history be a cover up , could it be fabricated to make him look bad ? . Dont trust everything you see and hear or indeed read . unless it comes from FOX news~

w2pow2's avatar

@sandystrachan Oh comeon now sandy! If the government was really fabricating evidence then this guy would be dead by now!

w2pow2's avatar

You really think that this guy is some Joe Schmoe that they pulled off the street? You think that this guy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time? What does the government have to gain by executing an innocent man? I can assure you that anything they would have to gain wouldn’t be worth the trouble!
I think your forgetting who the real bad guys are, sandy. The real bad guys are the guys who have enlisted thousands of teenage suicide bombers to die in the name of their Jihad! Those guys have no problem fabricating evidence!

augustlan's avatar

@w2pow2 The point here is that it doesn’t matter if he’s guilty (even though he probably is)... the evidence/confessions are tainted because of the torture. For one thing, as you’ve now agreed, torture is not a reliable method to gain the truth. For another, in the US court system evidence obtained by illegal means is not admissible. If this guy were a regular old US citizen charged with murder, and the cops beat him to get a confession, the entire case would be thrown out.

w2pow2's avatar

I agreed that other methods are more reliable but the torture method isn’t without some merit. As I said before it thwarted a terrorist attack.
The “Is he lying?” Problem can be solved fairly easily- If you give me some info then I’ll stop hurting you. If you lie then I’ll make it hurt twice as bad. And we WILL know if you lie. Cause we’re the CIA, bitch!

w2pow2's avatar

Can no one find the info that I requested a few comments ago? It’s crucial info. It can tell me if the confession was false or not.

filmfann's avatar

@w2pow2 says: If you lie then I’ll make it hurt twice as bad. And we WILL know if you lie. Cause we’re the CIA, bitch!
LOL! Ya, they don’t make mistakes. Those weapons of mass distruction will be found any day now.

ragingloli's avatar

@filmfann
not to mention that the “information” that iraq had WMD’s also came from a captured and tortured terrorist.

w2pow2's avatar

@filmfann Yeah it’s not like Iraq had a biological weapons program and nuclear weapons program that they lied to us about!
Oh wait… actually… hehe… They did…
Aren’t you glad we invaded Iraq and stopped that kuh-razy bastard?

w2pow2's avatar

@ragingloli Really? Well I don’t mind if the CIA is that accurate…
Has WMD’s…
Building WMD’s…
Hmm. Close enough.
Poor terrorist’s lie was just TOO DAMN CLOSE to the truth.

ragingloli's avatar

@w2pow2
Really? Well I don’t mind if the CIA is that accurate…
Has WMD’s…
Building WMD’s…
Hmm. Close enough.
Poor terrorist’s lie was just TOO DAMN CLOSE to the truth.

too bad neither was true

w2pow2's avatar

Sources rangingloli
Sources and/or links would be SO COOL!

w2pow2's avatar

That doesn’t really say anything new…
Iraq had a biological weapons program and nuclear weapons program that was secret and kept from the U.S. It was BUILDING WMD’s
But maybe I’m missing something from the article. Explain it in your own words. and use small words please so that my little 3-pound brain can understand.

ragingloli's avatar

It says that there was no evidence that Iraq was actively pursuing the construction of WMDs. There was no evidence supporting that before the invasion, and there was no evidence found after the invasion. Your claim that they had an active programme and “kept it secret” is just as unfounded as the Bush regime’s claim that Iraq had WMD’s.

w2pow2's avatar

“In David Kay’s statement on the interim report of the Iraq Survey Group, the following paragraphs are found:

“We have not yet found stocks of weapons, but we are not yet at the point where we can say definitively either that such weapon stocks do not exist or that they existed before the war and our only task is to find where they have gone. We are actively engaged in searching for such weapons based on information being supplied to us by Iraqis.”

“With regard to delivery systems, the ISG team has discovered sufficient evidence to date to conclude that the Iraqi regime was committed to delivery system improvements that would have, if OIF had not occurred, dramatically breached UN restrictions placed on Iraq after the 1991 Persian Gulf War.”

“ISG has gathered testimony from missile designers at Al Kindi State Company that Iraq has reinitiated work on converting SA-2 Surface-to-Air Missiles into ballistic missiles with a range goal of about 250 km. Engineering work was reportedly underway in early 2003, despite the presence of UNMOVIC. This program was not declared to the UN.”

“ISG has developed multiple sources of testimony, which is corroborated in part by a captured document, that Iraq undertook a program aimed at increasing the HY-2’s range and permitting its use as a land-attack missile. These efforts extended the HY-2’s range from its original 100 km to 150–180km. Ten modified missiles were delivered to the military prior to OIF and two of these were fired from Umm Qasr during OIF – one was shot down and one hit Kuwait.”

Another notable statement is the following:

“We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.””

Saddam Hussein was a sneaky bastard

w2pow2's avatar

From Wiki:
After he was captured by U.S. forces in Baghdad in 2003, Dr. Mahdi Obeidi, who ran Saddam’s nuclear centrifuge program until 1997, handed over blueprints for a nuclear centrifuge along with some actual centrifuge components, stored at his home – buried in the front yard – awaiting orders from Baghdad to proceed. He said, “I had to maintain the program to the bitter end.” In his book, “The Bomb in My Garden”, the Iraqi physicist explains that his nuclear stash was the key that could have unlocked and restarted Saddam’s bombmaking program. However, it would require a massive investment and a re-creation of thousands of centrifuges in order to reconstitute a full centrifugal enrichment program.”

ragingloli's avatar

@w2pow2
Increasing the range of missiles is not a WMD programme.
As for your second post, it only confirms what I said earlier: That there were no active programmes to produce weapons of mass destruction.

w2pow2's avatar

Although it’s really suspicious that Saddam kept that program hidden from the UN, and that it could be connected to WMD if chemical agents were stored in the missile, It aint the star of the show here!
The real star of the show is:
“We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.”

President Bush said in his 2003 state of the union speech:

“The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.

The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin; enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He’s given no evidence that he has destroyed it.”

And now it appears that they’re finding evidence of that claim. It seems that Saddam is just really good at hiding stuff.

But Mr Hussein kept WAY too much info from the UN. He was asking for it.

w2pow2's avatar

I misunderstood my source when I said that there were secret weapon programs that Saddam was hiding from the U.S.
So let me rephrase: He had EVERY intention of building weapons of mass destruction when the USA was looking the other way. And he hid the materials and resources from the UN.

ragingloli's avatar

Of course he had the intention. He was a dictator so it would surprise anyone if he didn’t. But the fact remains that he did not have active programmes to produce weapons of mass destruction.

w2pow2's avatar

So do you think that the invasion of Iraq was justified?

w2pow2's avatar

WHY! i cry WHY!
Why not?

w2pow2's avatar

Saddam was one evil dude. He gassed a whole lot of Kurds. I don’t think anyone would argue that the world would be better off with him still alive.
Boy if only Omar al-Bashir was making WMD’s… One can only dream… (sarcasm)
No the point is that the UN said disarm or face consequences. And Saddam continued to be a snake and hide stuff from the UN. And so he swings by the neck for it.
See ya in hell Saddam!

filmfann's avatar

@w2pow2 Sir, we have evidence you have purchased, in the last 3 years, 3 gallons of Clorox Bleach, 28 cans of Orange Juice Concentrate, over 300 gallons of gasoline, and several containers of Ammonia.
These chemicals can be combined to create Mustard Gas and Nalpalm.
We demand you show us where you have these hidden, or we will seize your property.

Easy, isn’t it?

w2pow2's avatar

@filmfann Yeah, sure. I’ll tell you where they are. I got nothing to hide, see?
Yeah that was pretty easy!
Can those items really be combined to make mustard gas?
And what items would you have to combine to make anthrax? How about botulinum toxin? Can those be made by household products?

ragingloli's avatar

Jus ad bellum

Just cause
The reason for going to war needs to be just and cannot therefore be solely for recapturing things taken or punishing people who have done wrong; innocent life must be in imminent danger and intervention must be to protect life. A contemporary view of just cause was expressed in 1993 when the US Catholic Conference said: “Force may be used only to correct a grave, public evil, i.e., aggression or massive violation of the basic human rights of whole populations.”
-clearly not the case. the gassing of the kurds was long gone and the present suffering of the population was mainly due to the sanctions placed on the country. Threat by the government to the populace was greatly reduced due to the constant disarmament enforced by the UN.

Legitimate authority
_Only duly constituted public authorities may wage war.
– invasion not authorised by the UN, therefore no legitimate authority._

Right intention
Force may be used only in a truly just cause and solely for that purpose—correcting a suffered wrong is considered a right intention, while material gain or maintaining economies is not.
– cheney was ceo of halliburton, and overall it is accepted that economic interests played a large role as cause for the invasion.

Probability of success
Arms may not be used in a futile cause or in a case where disproportionate measures are required to achieve success;
– i’ll give you that, iraq was no match for US forces.

Last resort
Force may be used only after all peaceful and viable alternatives have been seriously tried and exhausted or are clearly not practical. It may be clear that the other side is using negotiations as a delaying tactic and will not make meaningful concessions.
– again, clearly not the case. iraq was, albeit reluctantly, complying with UN demands of disarmament, and constant watching of the country would have prevented Iraq from resuming their WMD programmes.

Proportionality
The anticipated benefits of waging a war must be proportionate to its expected evils or harms. This principle is also known as the principle of macro-proportionality, so as to distinguish it from the jus in bello principle of proportionality.

- hundreds of thousands dead, mainly civilian casualties only to remove a dictator whose actions could have easily been restricted by constant international oversight with much less death, so in my estimation, not proportional.

ragingloli's avatar

@w2pow2

“Yeah, sure. I’ll tell you where they are. I got nothing to hide, see? Yeah that was pretty easy!”

That is what Saddam did too, and as you yourself said, he still hid some materials.

filmfann's avatar

One could make all kinds of explosives, using simple household items —- Tyler Durden

w2pow2's avatar

@ragingloli “cheney was ceo of halliburton, and overall it is accepted that economic interests played a large role as cause for the invasion.”
“and OVERALL it is ACCEPTED…” Wow that’s an interesting and careful choice of words. Care to go into great detail?

“Iraq was, albeit reluctantly, complying with UN demands of disarmament…”

PLUS

“That is what Saddam did too, and as you yourself said, he still hid some materials.”

PLUS

“The United Nations concluded in 1999 that Saddam Hussein had biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.”

PLUS

“The United Nations concluded that Saddam Hussein had materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin; enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He’s given no evidence that he has destroyed it.”

EQUALS CONTRADICTORY

Saddam really wasn’t playing nice with the UN. We’ve already established that he hid materials. But he also had “materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin” as well as “materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax”
Saddam is like that bastard at the poker table that has two aces up his sleeve and one in his hat. He (Iraq) didn’t follow the rules.

w2pow2's avatar

@filmfann could that stuff really be used to make mustard gas?

ragingloli's avatar

@w2pow2
that is why I said reluctantly

ragingloli's avatar

and saddam wasn’t a poker player. he didn’t have any aces up his sleeves.
he was a little boy trying to hide his porn mags from his parents as well as he could.

w2pow2's avatar

Well it got to the point where it wasn’t even reluctant. It got to the point where Saddam was just flat out lying.
”...materials sufficient to produce more than 38,000 liters of botulinum toxin; enough to subject millions of people to death by respiratory failure. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He’s given no evidence that he has destroyed it.”
“biological weapons materials sufficient to produce over 25,000 liters of anthrax; enough doses to kill several million people. He hasn’t accounted for that material. He has given no evidence that he has destroyed it.”

@ragingloli lets forget politics for a moment as well as porn magazines which I just read and laughed my ass off at.
Lets forget politics.
Saddam Hussein: Used mustard gas on those poor Kurds. Killed countless innocents.
But does he pay for his treacheries? No. He’s sitting in a cozy little office… Wondering what he should order for breakfast.
Doesn’t that make your blood boil?
Doesn’t that make you want to stand up and DO something?

w2pow2's avatar

“hundreds of thousands dead, mainly civilian casualties only to remove a dictator whose actions could have easily been restricted by constant international oversight with much less death, so in my estimation, not proportional.”

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/iraq/images/040903_kiss.jpg

Ya wanna explain that to him?

w2pow2's avatar

Well I’m about to sign off now but I would really like for you to expand on Dick Cheney being the CEO of Halliburton and how it influenced us to go to war. If the former administration was THAT corrupt then I definitely want to know about it.
I came here for enlightenment and so far everyone has been great with providing insight. Thanks everyone!

ragingloli's avatar

The west got its chance to punish him for that after he did that during desert storm, which occured after the genocide, but the coalition forces, led by bush senior, decided to leave him in office. Maybe they thought the military defeat was sufficient punishment.
Besides, the people who ordered and executed the nuking of two japanese cities full of innocent civilians are still worshipped as heroes by Americans. They should have been tried for war crimes too at the time. But I will not call for trial of half dead, wrinkly seniors now.

Ya wanna explain that to him?
http://www.rawa.org/temp/runews/data/upimages/child_burnt.jpg

augustlan's avatar

@w2pow2 Where did/do you stand on these genocides: Rwandan, Karabakh, and Darfur? I mean, if you want to say the war in Iraq is justified, what about these places?

w2pow2's avatar

Late night, can’t sleep. went to computer to look something up. Comment above made me forget what I was going to look up. Thanks a lot @augustlan
Going back to my previous sarcasm-filled statement:
“Boy if only Omar al-Bashir was making WMD’s… One can only dream… (sarcasm)”
That should tell you where I stand on the Darfur genocide.
As for the Rwandan genocide, I’m all for it. Hutu power, man.
The statement above is pure sarcasm- What… Is that what you expected me to say? I’m a flag-waving American so OF COURSE I’m against all those genocides. I just wish that the USA could start an invasion of Africa and get rid of al-Bashir like we got rid of Saddam in Iraq.
Hey wait a second, aren’t you Liberal? Aren’t you against military intervention? So what’s the point of asking me that question?
@ragingloli How did that boy die? What’s the story?

augustlan's avatar

@w2pow2 Was just wondering. If we went to war in order to defend lives that were in imminent danger, I could get behind that. However, if we are only going to step in when oil is at stake… nope. We should be everywhere or nowhere, not just where it hits us in the pocketbook.

w2pow2's avatar

@augustlan Awww comeon. I’ll be damned if ANY U.S. administration is ever that corrupt as to go to war for oil. Not only would the president have to be that corrupt but also every member of congress who voted for it. It would take some long, hard work to corrupt that many people.
Hey speaking of congress voting for the invasion, does anyone have the vote count on that?

dalepetrie's avatar

@w2pow2 – you DO realize that in Dick Armey’s book, he recounted how he was about to recommend AGAINST the authorization of the use of force in Iraq, until Dick Cheney, his long time friend, came to him and TOLD him that Saddam actually possessed a suitcase nuke, do you not? Read his book, all in there.

You DO realize that Dick Cheney was a founding member of the Project for a New American Century in 1997…an organization which was founded by everyone who became Bush II’s original cabinet (Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, etc.), which stated in their charter that America should achieve world dominance by engaging in multiple simultaneous theater wars in the middle east, do you not?

You do realize that Halliburton took in several billion dollars in no-bid contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq, no-bid meaning they got the work, no one else was even allowed to try to undercut them, do you not? Yet, if you watch Robert Greenwald’s amazing documentary entitled Iraq for Sale, you’ll see how much they overcharged the government, how lavishly they spent their money on their high rollers, and how little they actually supplied for the money. And you do realize that after Halliburton was pretty much caught red handed being unable to account for where billions in taxpayer dollars was spent, Cheney helped to ensure there was no investigation, nor did any of their no bid contracts disappear, do you not?

And you do realize that Cheney was not only the CEO of Halliburton until he assumed the role of the Vice Presidency, but that his golden parachute included a payment in the amount of $250,000 per year for the first 5 years of his Vice Presidency, putting Cheney on the payrolls of both Halliburton and the US Government, do you not?

Ultimately, as long as the US requires foreign oil, having our citizens at the mercy of oil cartels in a hostile area of the world is a national security problem, and this is the problem Cheney and the neo-cons felt we should resolve by basically establishing a Jeffersonian Democracy in the middle east somewhere, probably Iraq. Further the fact that Iraq had leader who was certainly not morally pure, who had in the past been hostile to the US, who needed to save face and could be counted on to push back against any UN weapons inspectors, and one who also happened to have tried to kill the President’s daddy, well it’s no surprise that a year BEFORE the invasion, Condi Rice tried to brief bush on Saddam and bush said, “Fuck Saddam, we’re taking him out.”

The invasion of Iraq was 6 years in the making and required the PNAC to install themselves in the White House by ANY MEANS NECESSARY, so that they could get us involved in an action against Iraq. There was NO doubt whatsoever that Bush was going to get us into a war in the Middle East, hell, even the satirical newspaper The Onion was prescient enough to realize this (note the date of the article…3 days before Bush first took office), which you can read here. I bring this up because it’s frightening how close the article came to articulating the then future/now past-present era.

You don’t think the Bush administration was corrupt? Look no further than the machinations Bush and co underwent to steal the 2000 election (read The Best Democracy Money Can Buy by Greg Palast if you don’t believe me), illegally and fraudulently removing some 154,000 net Democrats from the voter rolls in an election that was decided by only a couple hundred votes.

Bottom line is, you should recall as well as I do that it wasn’t about going to war to take out an evil man. Yes, Saddam was evil, no tears were shed when he died. But there are evil dictators all around the world that the US doesn’t give two shits about, because they control countries that do not have a massive commodity that props up our entire economy. You can either be the police force of the world (something which is bankrupting us by the way), or you can remain neutral, but the US has always wanted it both ways, and this has been true under Dems and Republicans, we’ll watch people suffering but when it begins to affect us, we’ll get involved. Anyway, Saddam being evil and having gassed the Kurds had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the justification for the war.

Bush in fact went on TV and did a State of the Union address just before the invasion. At the time, Hans Blix was diligently working within the UN Security Counsel, inspecting Iraq for WMDs, and though from time to time he was meeting with resistance, by and large, he was getting Saddam to cooperate. But for months we heard this drumbeat from the Bush administration that we couldn’t afford to wait. The phrase they used over and over and over again (and remember the first rule of facism is that if you repeat something often enough, it begins to seem like the truth) was “the evidence that Iraq has WMDs could come in the form of a mushroom cloud”. I heard Rumsfeld say this, I heard other administration officials say this, and I heard Bush himself make a similar claim, in this aforementioned State of the Union Address. In this address he also pointed to a copy of a purchase order from Iraq to buy enriched yellowcake uranium from Nigeria….only two problems. One is that this was an OBVIOUS forgery, the name of the Nigerian President was someone who had left office in 1988! Two was that this whole document had already been discredited and the White House informed (which is what led to Cheney outing Valerie Plame as a CIA operative to get back at her husband who went public with the story that this document had already been discredited and that Bush should have known that).

Our Congress was basically TOLD what Dick Armey was told….he had been assured by Cheney (who had put in WRITING 6 years earlier that he believed we should invade Iraq to essentially build a permanent friendly presence in the oil rich region we depend on) that Saddam HAD suitcase nukes. So even if the vote count had been 100% (I believe it wasn’t too far shy of that), yeah, you tell Congress that a dictator has a suitcase nuke and is going to bring it to our shores less than 2 years after another terrorist crashes planes into the WTC and Penatagon, of COURSE they were going to vote to authorize force.

But again, what they voted for was not to go to WAR, but to authorize the use of force IF NECESSARY. Basically it’s been well documented that the authorization was presented to Congress as something that would make it easier to defend ourselves if necessary, and that once they had it, they used it to justify a preventive war.

Wake up and smell the coffee…we were misled into a war that most Americans and most of Congress would NOT have supported had they known the truth, the truth was actively hidden from both these groups, and the people hiding these truths had financial and political interests in going to war at any cost. If you really don’t think a U.S. administration could possibly be that corrupt, then you are indeed naiive. Not every member of Congress needs to be corrupt to push through an agenda….do you have a clue how politics works? It’s not about the greater truth, it’s about the best appearance. If you can paint a picture in the political realm of two possibilities, and make one picture incredibly bleak and the other sunshine and roses, well the reality could be the exact opposite, and people are still going for the better looking option….this is what happened to Congress.

Here’s what I’d suggest. Find a few books on the Bush Administration written from the “Bush bad” point of view….there are thousands, just pick like the two where you can look at the author and the author’s reputation and feel like they’re not a partisan hack (because many anti-Bush tomes have been written by non-Democrats), books where you feel like you’re not just going to write it all off, books by people perhaps who had an insider’s view. Look at these and read what the arguments are (which I’ve somewhat haphazardly summarized here) about how Bush and company lied to get us into war and how Cheney’s financial interests definitely had something to do with it, and get informed about what people are actually upset about instead of just writing it off. Many of us here have already done our homework…we can’t sit here and give you source after source after source. But what I can do is give you this well documented list (including sources) of nearly 1,500 reasons why Bush and his administration were bad, corrupt, self serving, devious, downright treasonous bastards.

sandystrachan's avatar

Dont ya’ll get the feeeling of head meets brick wall syndrome in this thread ???

dalepetrie's avatar

@sandystrachan – I have to at least give credit to @w2pow2, who first came on here with a “torture is OK by me attitude”, we managed to present a compelling enough argument that @w2pow2 showed himself to be reasonable enough, with an open enough mind to have reversed position on that part of it when confronted with persuasive evidence. Whether or not we’ll be able to convince him that the Bush Administration was corrupt remains to be seen, but I’m not willing to write off the fight just yet. I’ve seen plenty of people who I know have been 100% in the wrong who would simply turn tail and run from a war of words, usually ending up making some sort of weak ad hominem attack on the way out. You can say what you want about @w2pow2‘s politics, but I personally respect anyone who will actually take the time to listen to and consider what the other side has to say before constructing his counter argument.

w2pow2's avatar

Ok you got me yet again.
I’ve sought enlightenment and I’m not going to argue with facts.
You guys have done a good job with providing the facts. Thanks!

w2pow2's avatar

To any godsend that is still following this post, I have one more question:
Of we went to Iraq for oil, why haven’t we confiscated any oil?

filmfann's avatar

I never said that, but we have restored Oil flow and sales in the area.

w2pow2's avatar

Going to war just to restore oil flow sales in the area? Seems highly unlikely. Why not just drill in Alaska?

filmfann's avatar

We didn’t go to war JUST to restore oil flow. We went to war cause W. hated Saddam, and wanted him out of power. The oil flow problem was cause by the early days of the war.

w2pow2's avatar

Well maybe you’re saying that we didn’t go to war just to restore oil flow, but everyone else on this post is.

dalepetrie's avatar

@w2pow2 – “everyone”? Clearly I wasn’t saying that. What I was saying was, there were two main reasons we went to war.

1) Bush II had a personal vendetta against Saddam, TONS of evidence to back this up.
2) Iraq was meant to be Phase I of the PNAC’s plan to establish a “US” friendly regime in the Middle East, as part of a 50 year (at least) plan, meant to start with Iraq, proceed to Iran, then to Libya, then Syria, but of course at the time these plans were formulated, Iran didn’t have the nuke, and Libya hadn’t started to kiss our asses. Those complications along with the fact that we weren’t “greeted as liberators” the way the PNAC expected we would be, are the main reason we haven’t “restored oil flow”. But it was never as simple as “confiscating oil” or “restoring oil flow”. It was more a matter of the realization that the majority of the world’s oil reserves are held by countries which a) collude with each other and b) are hostile to us. The point of the PNAC and thus Bush’s entire game plan was that we replace the regime of one of these countries with one which has OUR interests at heart, and it will have a twofold effect (over time). First, it will cause the other countries to fall like dominoes, especially when they realize we’re serious, but mostly because democracy will be contagious…all the people in the other neighboring countries will see the newly created democracy as a role model and they will rise up against their oppressive regimes, and if necessary, the US would step in and help the cause. Eventually, forces friendly to the US would have a strong foothold within OPEC, and we’d never have to worry about the idea that some day some dictator would decide to raise our gas prices to 10 bucks a gallon. So indirectly, yes, Iraq was “about” oil, but it was a bit more complicated than that. And clearly, it would serve the US in more than one way if we were somehow able to convert the middle east into a Jeffersonian Democracy, so to say it was all about oil is overly simplistic. But to deny that oil had anything to do with it is equally naiive.

w2pow2's avatar

“The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow.”—

Bill Clinton in 1998

why would Bill Clinton say something like that?

w2pow2's avatar

“I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons…I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out.”—

Clinton’s Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

“Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”—

Al Gore, 2002

I thought we were past the WMD discussion, but these quotes raise some doubt concerning the conclusion of said discussion.

dalepetrie's avatar

Clearly there were suspicions that Iraq possessed WMDs, and there was indeed evidence of a program to create them which came out of the first Gulf War, but the problem with the WMDs is that Saddam never produced them. He may have wanted to, and he was a dictator, his power came from bravado, it was his job to convince people he was dangerous so they wouldn’t mess with him. Had he been perceived as weak within Iraq, he would have been taken out by a coup, Saddam had to talk loud, even if he had nothing to back it up with, which is EXACTLY what he did with the WMDs. He convinced his people he had them, and by extension, other countries became convinced he had them. One of the main reasons he kept playing cat and mouse with weapons inspectors was no more than a show, a ruse designed to leave some doubt so he would not be defanged in the court of public opinion.

The big problem was that the UN weapons inspectors, headed up by Hans Blix were at times stonewalled by Saddam in 2002, but they were making progress, they would occasionally have to deal with Saddam’s theatrics, and it made their job take longer than it would have had Saddam given them full cooperation, but Saddam could not do that, it would have meant his death. If the UN were to issue a report which concluded what was ultimately found to be true, that Saddam had once had a program with the intention of creating WMDs, but that these efforts had been shut down years before, had never actually produced a weapon, and Iraq had basically zero capability of producing anything we’d consider to be a WMD any time within the next couple decades, then he could have easily convinced his people (as he did have state control of the media after all) that he had everyone “fooled” and he could have continued on with his hollow threats and posturing. Really, all Saddam wanted was money and power and not to die…that’s what was meaningful to him. Indeed, he reportedly offered to step down for a billion dollars and he’d just disappear, before we invaded…which would have been an absolute bargain compared to the cost of the war. He was a bully…a coward, he was not some dangerous man hell bent on world destruction, capable of bringing down the great US.

Fact is, not one single shred of evidence has surfaced to indicate that Iraq had or was anywhere near obtaining WMDs, and all evidence points to Saddam having dismantled his program years before the invasion, but putting on a good show thereafter to avoid losing face (and his life). And OK, most people, including Democrats, including Clinton and Cohen, were taken in by this ruse. BUT the important distinction is that where Democrats wanted Blix and company to finish the job, Bush went ahead with plans to invade before UN weapons inspectors has even finished inspecting. Where Democrats were told they were authorizing the use of force for the purposes of self defense, Bush used it for justification for a pre-emptive strike. When a skeptical nation was told we have to go to war now, when nothing really seemed to have changed or become in any way more urgent, we were told repeatedly things like “the smoking gun could come in the form of a mushroom cloud.” Whereas Bush and co were suspicious that Iraq might be attempting to obtain WMDs, the case they made to get Congress’ approval was that Saddam had a suitcase nuke working and in his possession.

Bottom line is, it doesn’t matter what the previous administration thought, what matters is the administration which invaded did so at BEST without obtaining all the facts, and at WORST in a premeditated manner which was inconsistent with either our values or our stated reasons for justifying the war, which in my opinion makes them all war criminals and traitors who if I had my way would be hanged if for no other reason than to serve as a lesson to any future leaders who might spend the lives of our nation’s young people to suit their own agendas.

dalepetrie's avatar

I also want to point out, lest there be any misunderstanding about my meaning, I would advocate hanging for Bush and his administration only IF there were a trial, and AT that trial, they were convicted of starting a pre-emptive on the premise of our nation being in imminent danger, AND they knew that we were not. If and only if they did actually believe we were in imminent danger of Saddam coming after us with WMDs (which is possible), it still would have to have seemed that the risk of temporary inaction in favor of allowing weapons inspectors to finish their jobs was too high to justify not invading. That was the story we were sold, that it was too much of a risk to wait, what was that based on. Would a reasonable, prudent person with access to the information that the Bush administration had have believed we were in imminent danger? The information on the public record does not seem to bear that out, but that’s why a trial is necessary. And I would say that the trial would need to establish that the administration went to war on false pretenses. If that were the case, it would rise to the level of treason….which is doing harm to one’s country for personal gain. And we do hang traitors. But again, I don’t know what I don’t know, we would need a fair trial to actually demonstrate they committed treason. Just wanted to make sure no one thought I was on an unreasonable quest for blood, I just want justice to be served and to deter future leaders from misusing our military in this way, if indeed it were proven that this is what happened.

stranger_in_a_strange_land's avatar

Obama is playing a game of images and symbolism. much like Jimmy Carter did. It will ultimately blow up in his face just as it did in Carter’s. All it will do is push a middle-America backlash and we will wind up with a right-wing moron like Palin being elected in 2012. To paraphrase W.S.Churchill, “It is not the destiny of great powers to be liked…”.

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