How about only "Don't Ask" as a military policy?

The military is not a very safe place for women or gays.

@alive the main reason I think is because having a homosexual in your squad could make homophobic soldiers (trust me there’s a lot of them) uncomfortable, decrease moral, etc. which is a shoddy reason if you ask me.

The natural response to that is, well, why don’t we just make all gay squads then… remember, this is the army, “a bunch a lilly ol fancy queer boys running around trying to be a squad? I don’t think so!”

How about we just make sexual orientation and gender equality a non-issue?
[sigh] if only it were that easy…

I think the policy needs to be No One Gives A Shit, There’s a War On.

@pdworkin I like where your head’s at soldier!

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 A very shoddy reason indeed if you realize that you could just as easily put “having a black guy in your squad could make racist soldiers (trust me there’s a lot of them) uncomfortable, decrease moral, etc.”

Its not up to the gay people not to be gay, its up to the homophobic to accept other people

So if a person was drafted into military service and they proclaimed they were gay, would that exclude them from military service?

@The_Compassionate_Heretic yes. during the vietnam draft, some men used this as a way to escape the draft

What a miserable waste of human courage, sacrifice and talent whenever we have excluded any group. It used to be Blacks, then women, now GLBT. We never seem to learn.

@tinyfaery in that article it states :”...whose hate had been inflamed by official cadence calls that urged soldiers to “kill fags.”
...seriously?

I can’t vouche for the validity of others’ quotes.

I don’t see why it should be an issue at all. It is totally irrational. but so is war.

Unfortunately, this is a very contentious issue for some people both in and out of the military and there aren’t any foolproof answers on how to work with the ‘gays in the military’ situation. As a career service member, I’ve known several person who were homosexual and I never even gave it a second thought. They never presented overt signs of their sexual leanings while in the course of their duties and they were always professional and dependable in their work ethics and behaviors.

I’ve never seen the need for someone to unecessarily persecute or harass someone who is homosexual. As long as they do their job competently and maintain the standards that the military expects of them, who cares if they’re gay? I understand that some people might be homophobic but that’s an issue they have to deal with. The thought that gay people will disrupt teamwork or continuity or they won’t pull their own weight in a forward deployed area is largely unfounded in my opinion. I’ve never seen this occur in over 20 years of military service. And this is coming from someone that has been stationed all over the world and has served with people of many different races and persons who are homosexual.

At the current time, I think the ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’ policy might be the best option we have right now. It’s not perfect but I don’t honestly know what an ideal alternative might be to put in its place. I’m disheartened that some people, because of their sexual preferences, have to bear a heavier burden than many others at times because of what may or may not happen if someone finds out that they’re homosexuals or the stress they might have to endure, or do endure, while trying to hide part of their true selves.

@Bluefreedom I’m sorry, and I mean this only to express my reaction to your view that DADT may be the best option and not to your other views, but, you know, horseshit. Armies all over the world including the Israeli army, which functions rather nicely, have homosexuals serving openly with no ill consequences.

Similar arguments (not your arguments- the arguments of the proponents of DADT) were used during WWII to marginalize African Americans. The Army is now probably the most completely integrated institution in the country, and it seems to function just fine.

Women are now active in battle, as you well know, and General Officers are calling for changes in the laws and rules that keep them out of combat. This was once considered an impossible state of affairs. It’s just time for this antedeluvian crapola to disappear. We will all benefit.

@Bluefreedom Why not punish homophobia instead of homosexuality?

Rather than don’t ask, I’d institute “don’t judge you narrowminded fucks”

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 I agree with @benjaminlevi The Taliban believe women should be forced to wear burquas because a few men are horny beasts, It is easier to deal with the homophobes and horny beasts. However, everyone knows that spreading your personal business at work is a bad idea and sleeping with someone from work is always a hot topic. Today I heard about one guy who just decided he didn’t want to be married so he walked out on wife and 2 babies and another guy who was juggling two coworkers. Last year an exec was arrested for bankrollimg and managing a brothel, Our gay coworkers look like models of propriety.

Being openly gay in the military is just not a good idea. I’m not saying anything about the status of being gay… just that it’s not a good idea to go rollin around saying it. I’m not sure why being gay has to be such an open thing.. why is it so important that everyone know you’re gay?

The whole idea of soldiering is to make everyone the same regardless of race, creed, religion, or sexual orientation.. (with the obvious exception that males and females should not share latrines and showers, etc) all of those things are non-applicable! Once you sign the line you are a soldier, or a sailor, or a marine, or an airman, or .. whatever the coast guard calls its people. You are not a gay individual, or a white man, or a woman, (in concept only of course) you are a soldier!

It’s for that same reason that I disagree with having different standards for women in the military. If they are going to be a soldier they should be held to the same standard as every other soldier. They should have to run as fast, do as many pushups, situps, pullups, etc as every other soldier out there.

Beyond all that there is an issue of privacy. Once someone proclaims open gayness which bathroom are they to use? Which berthing or barracks? Which pt standard would they held to? Is a heterosexual supposed to share a bathroom with a homosexual person? Are we to build three or more sets of latrines, heads, commodes, bathrooms, etc, for each sexual persuasion? It’s just not practical. The current policy of “Don’t ask, don’t tell” is perfectly viable and should remain in place imho.

Insisting on being categorized differently than everyone else is not in keeping with the traditions and standards of the military and is a characteristic of someone who doesn’t need to be in the military to begin with.

@benjaminlevi. I don’t know how you would punish someone for having a phobia or a behavior based on a phobia. Instead, if someone were to purposefully and maliciously mistreat, abuse, harass, or discriminate against a homosexual person or persons, I would agree that this individual should be punished for these actions. Even this is problematic in that you have to determine how severe punishments should be and what constitutes clear examples of offenses against gay persons. As I said in my first post, this is a very contentious issue and also a difficult one.

@NaturalMineralWater. I thought your answer was excellent. You make some very good points in your reasoning.

@NaturalMineralWater – I understand and agree with your assessment that people in the military should be soldiers, period. With that in mind however we have female soldiers, black soldiers, Hispanic soldiers, tall soldiers, short soldiers, blue eyed soldiers, green eyed soldiers. Anything that is just part of who you are, though you shouldn’t be expected to be treated any differently based on any of those things, none of the other soldiers should be bothered by that either. I agree with the don’t ask part, it’s no one’s business. And the don’t tell, well that’s your business, I don’t think anyone should go around advertising their differences, as the purpose of that is often to differentiate yourself. As you said, once you sign your name, your features don’t really matter, you have a duty as a soldier and you need to do it as well as anyone else. But you should not have to actively hide your relationships if you choose to partner with a person of the same sex. Certainly there are many married soldiers or soldiers dating people of the opposite sex whose relationships with their significant others are public knowledge….certainly there is a social aspect to soldier life as well, and what is part of your social life, though again you have no obligation to share it, if a guy has a boyfriend, he shouldn’t need to hide that any more than a guy should have to hide his girlfriend. So, when it comes out as just the normal course of living and not in a manner in which someone is using that information to gain special treatment, again, if everyone is to be treated equally, there are NO EXCEPTIONS, and it is not the gay person’s problem…it is the problem of anyone else who can’t rise to the expectations of the military which SHOULD be that you are all equal members of this unit, period. And basically, if you can get over showering naked with people of the same sex, really if you’re mature and of that everyone is treated equally mindset, should it matter more to you if you know a person showering with you is gay, vs. just the general knowledge that any one of these other guys could be gay. Showering is not a sexual activity, nor is going to the bathroom, if someone harasses someone sexually in such a setting, then court martial the bastard and get on with it, but forcing people to hide who they are because some might be uncomfortable with it is narrow minded, immature and downright inhumane.

As a lesbian who was in the military for 8 years I have billions of things to say on this issue so I’ll say now forgive my wordiness. Going from your comments in the question there are a lot of people who shouldn’t ‘be themselves’ in the workplace regardless of sexual orientation. The work place is not the place for anyone’s sexuality. There is a big difference between mentioning your partner in passing when speaking of nonsexual things & being all ‘out’ with your sex life. In the majority of cases there is no one who asks & no one who tells but the way they enforce the policy is by stalking gay service members in their privat outside the work place lives. The loophole is that if you have gay friends that are out, go to a gay bar, have a sexy pic of the same sex up on your FB page then they consider you as “telling” which is crap!!! As far as “tolerance training” in my entire 8 years of duty I never heard of that – perhaps it’s new since 2003. Lol @tinyfaery as a woman inthe military I never felt safer & even as a lesbian I was safer than gay men (scared for them). People that tell you women aren’t safe in the military are lying. @The_Compassionate_Hereticduring Vietnam recruiters got smart with gay claims & asked for proof. @Facade yes there are plenty of cadences that are anti gay with violent leanings – I learned them all in boot camp.

@NaturalMineralWater based on the first statement you made I believe you are confused a little. Gays in the military do not expect a special classification, they expect exactly what you say to be a Soldier! The problem occurs when the other soldiers speak of non soldierly things like “my wife this, my kids that, my husband the other” when a lesbian soldier says my girlfriend & I saw that same movie last night it was great the consequences can be dangerous and can range from those who all of a sudden live in fear of sharing a bathroom/sleeping quarters etc. To actual violence. The truth is that anyone whose concern is about things like bathrooms & sleeping arrangements reveals more about their own inner desires than that of the person they fear may peak at them at the urinal. Not to
say that person is gay but to say that person is highly sexual in their thoughts & cannot imagine a sleeping arrangement or bathroom sharing without it including fantasy about peaking at those they may have attractions for. It is they who are the weak ones in fear that those they may mingle with could be equally as weak when it comes to follow thru & animal urges. As a gay person in the military I can say that those who fear being pursued the most are those who we would least desire to pursue. It’s their one chance to feel like SOMEONE may be interested in them fir nothing more than their physical form (perhaps they should nurture that in themselves that isn’t physical if they think that’s where their most positive attribute lies so they won’t be so insecure). It’s a sad state when people focus on such unproven, unfounded & invalid issues as bathroom & sleeping etiquite in order to justify their uninformed & uneducated (on the subject at hand) fears &/or hatred.

I think “Don’t Ask” is a brilliant term for what the policy should be. It shouldn’t be the government’s (or your employer’s) business what your sexual orientation is.

There was a poll of active enlisted service members in 2007 and 70% of the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines said that it wasn’t an issue for them or that they didn’t care. Its the brass that is out of touch. I saw this around the time that 60 Minutes aired this story about how little rank and file service members actually care. (A hundred people would know of someone’s homosexuality and nobody would turn them in; or they would tell an officer and there would be an “investigation” and they wouldn’t find anything.)

As for being seen naked in the shower, they are already being seen. The only difference is that the person would know who was gay, and could turn away if he was so insecure about himself that he couldn’t bear to be seen. I can tell you from my own experience of having been “outed” in prison, the only problem with having other people knowing what your deal is, is having to deal with curious straight guys who start flirting with you. All you have to say is, “Oh, come on now, you know I can’t have sex sober!” and its all over and done with. Pretty much.

As for having moral reservations about homosexuality, do you mean to tell me that after all the moral compromises we made in invading Iraq, a country that didn’t attack us and had no weapons of mass destruction; that after raping and killing its civilians, violating the Geneva conventions against torture and inhumane treatment; that after Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and lying to the American public; and trashing our own constitutional principles governing what constitutes a fair trial, we now suddenly find it “morally objectionable” for two guys to have consenting sex in private? I don’t think so.

“How about we just make sexual orientation and gender equality a non issue?”

Sounds doable if we make the Military Co-ed.

@Jenniehowell After over 16 years in two military branches, countless units, and quite a few deployments seeing this stuff first hand.. I assure you I’m not confused.

@NaturalMineralWater The thing I found confusing about your statement was your assumption that you would need separate facilities for gay people. You don’t have them now and nobody seems to sweat it.

Isn’t tolerating diversity a mark of that professionalism you were talking about?

@MontyZuma Nobody is sweating it because nobody knows that anyone is gay. It’s not about toleration.. it’s about practicality. I call it like I see it. It will decrease functionality, efficiency, and productivity if everyone starts coming out of the closet. That’s not a guess.. it will. But I’m just one man.. I believe it will happen eventually anyway despite my quiet protest.

@NaturalMineralWater I’m sorry, I just don’t see why knowing somebody is gay makes it impractical for you to take a shower with them. What’s the problem exactly?

@MontyZuma For the same reason I don’t shower with females knowing they are females. It’s just inappropriate. If you can’t agree with me on that simple point than we’re wasting our time here.

@NaturalMineralWater You seem like far too delicate a flower to be in the military. Perhaps a seminary might suit you better. I’m sure every man there will be straight.

By the way, what happened the many, many times you have showered with Gay men without knowing it? Just askin’.

@NaturalMineralWater Yes, but you are sexually attracted to females, not to males. The embarrassment factor in showering with a female (if you’re male) is that you might pop a bone and there would be a moment of awkwardness. But that is not going to happen to you with another male regardless of what you know about him. You are already being seen by gay people who are obviously professional enough not to show inappropriate sexual interest in you, or else you would know who they are. So, how would knowing his deal change things in a way that would make it “inappropriate” for you to shower with him? Frankly, the only thing I can see here is that your knowledge of his gayness taps into your homophobia.

I read that long debate you had about linguistics, and you are such an intelligent fellow, it just seems so uncharacteristic of you not to be able to articulate a reason.

According to a recent poll 73% of enlisted men say they would have no problem serving with an openly gay person; 23% already serve with someone in their unit they know to be gay. Also check out this 60 Minutes story on how attitudes in the military have changed in the past few years.

@pdworkin Now you’re just being disrespectful to which I say…

@MontyZuma I’m not interested in what the “news” has to say on the issue. I’m not homophobic, just a realist. If you guys don’t have anything better to say than that I hate gay people (not true) than just move along.

I encourage you both to get some military service under your belts before you venture an opinion in a field you are completely oblivious to.

You keep dodging the questions, while dismissing other people’s arguments. Do you think no one notices? I wonder if you have some fears and issues about your own sexuality. Otherwise, I don’t know how to explain all the ducking and dodging, and, especially, the fear.

“what happened the many, many times you have showered with Gay men without knowing it?”

So as long as it is a covert situation it is ok?

Peepholes in the womens shower should be ok then,if no one knows?

Who, in wartime, gives a shit about peeping at your fucking body? The Times just ran an article about women who, as squad leaders have to pee by the side of the road, sometimes getting interrupted by the men they command. So the fuck what? Christ what a juvenile argument.

“Who, in wartime, gives a shit about peeping at your fucking body?”
Under fire is one thing.

But you are not under fire 24/7.

Seems that you are a very progressive individual. But, still a minority.
Plenty would take offense to your attitude and poor choice of words. I am not one of them. I feel your passion.

I choose my words very carefully, and do not agree that I have made any poor choices. Was I not well understood?

@NaturalMineralWater I assure you that every single person who thinks/believes/feels that gays feel as if they need “special status” is completely confused. It has NOTHING to do with special privileges or status unless FREEDOM is a special status in our country all of a sudden. The problem with people who have more freedoms & privileges over another take them for granted & make the assumption that everyone else has them. That idea is completely false. The ONLY thing that gays want is the ability to be free to speak openly about their lives like everyone else is privileged & free to do. Every day that I served in the military someone made mention of their wife, girlfriend, husband, boyfriend – the activities they participated in (non sexual) – they spoke of who they were & were not attracted to openly in conversations in the workspace as well as on breaks etc. The only thing that is “special” is that heterosexuals have the privilege & freedom to do those things without fear of losing their jobs over where they place their genitals from one moment to the next outside the workplace. That my friend is not asking for a special privilege it is asking fir equal privilege. And to assume that simply because of the gender a person is attracted to is enough of a reason for separate facilities is crazy to be frank. All of society does not have separate facilities & we have managed quite nicely from high school/college/pro sports facilities & beyond. No ones bonor or attraction has caused any world wars or major issues. I am a lesbian & would have no problem showering with a bunch of woody ridden men & all my life in sports I’ve showered right along side hundreds of women & not one of them or me crossed the line with inappropriate behavior. The only people who aren’t able to function like mature adults in shared settings are the perverts who are in need of intensive therapy to cure them of their inability to act on their fantasies & the narcissists who are deluded enough to imagine that anyone would not be attracted to them & therefore they need protection from the masses of people who will bombard them with sexual advances. Sorry to break it to you but in the military & all your life each time you have been in a sleeping arrangement, a showering situation, a bathroom situation with more than one person of your same sex you’ve been with homos & I promise you the squelching of the phrase “I’m gay” is not what has protected you from the otherwise deviant bombardment of perverts who may have been attracted to you. Only people who are unable to separate sex from their every waking moment are afraid of such delusional possibilities. The fact that you lack information about the facts of what gays want, desire, need & lack as freedoms is what proves that you have a fear & hate related to gays. You could keep your viewpoint & not be put in that category if you came from a realistic & informed place but you haven’t done that in this forum hence the readers are putting you
into that category.

@NaturalMineralWater “Nobody is sweating it because nobody knows that anyone is gay. It’s not about toleration.. it’s about practicality. I call it like I see it. It will decrease functionality, efficiency, and productivity if everyone starts coming out of the closet.”

But 23% do know their co-workers are gay and 73% say they wouldn’t care if they did know. So where is the “impracticality” aside from your peevish reluctance to be naked in the presence of someone you know to be gay?

@MontyZuma If nobody knew who was male and who was female the military would be more efficient and productive too. I’m not limiting my mindset to just gay people. It’s just a fact. As a side note, it’s not really conducive to conversation when you insult the person you’re talking to. When I come across people who choose to do this I have no desire to continue conversation with them.

@Jenniehowell I’m sure that was a good response but I don’t want to read it all. I can tell by all the caps that you disagree. That’s all I need to know. I prefer brevity over verbosity any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

@whoever Just as in so many other threads this has turned into a everybody versus me situation and I’m not inclined to respond to so many people. Suffice it to say we disagree on the matter and move along to bigger and better threads.

@NaturalMineralWater I’m insulting you?

@MontyZuma I thought so, in using “you” words where nonspecific words would be better “your…...someone you know” could have been “a…......someone known to be gay”

@YARNLADY You think so?

@MontyZuma well, it did occur to me when I read it

@YARNLADY His objection seems entirely personal, since I don’t think he has made the case for “impracticality.”

It’s not a good idea to let it be known that you are gay in prison, since it potentially opens you up for unwanted and predatory attention, but he hasn’t made any kind of case like that. As I found out, its not a catastrophe if you are outed, and the more people who are “out” the more people are cool with it, because they soon learn that nothing untoward is going to happen.

Geez, it’s difficult getting laid under the best of circumstances. To think that things are going to grind to a stop simply because people know each other’s sexual preferences simply doesn’t square with reality. We already have women and men who are attracted to one another and potentially available, and it doesn’t seem to impair efficiency to any unacceptable degree. I think the record is pretty clear that people can control themselves in a total institution like the services, and to suggest that homosexuals can’t or that they would somehow impair the efficiency of straight men is frankly insulting to me.

I’m curious if the argument that it’s OK to shower with gay people if you don’t know they’re gay because then you aren’t worried that they might be sexually attracted to you should apply to gym in school as well. I NEVER liked showering with my classmates, I found it a HUGE violation of my privacy. But you know what, in today’s world, unlike when I went to school, a gay person in your school is far more likely to be “out” than at any time in history. So, now we have a situation where kids who haven’t even finished high school have to shower naked in front of gay people of the same sex who might be thinking impure thoughts about them. So you’re telling me a 10th grader can handle what a trained soldier can not?

@NaturalMineralWater, and everyone else who is interested in this topic: Don’t take my word for it, take it from a military lieutenant himself, he said he is gay and military personal of ranks high and low said “we don’t care”.

Lt. Dan Choi Fired for being Gay interview

I have yet to hear a legitimate argument to prove to me that people SHOULD be fired for being gay.

The shower and barracks argument is very weak, because gays are already serving. Gays can serve as long as they keep their sexual orientation a secret. Therefore, whether you know it or not there are going to be some non-straight people serving right next to you at some point or another.

And if someone has a problem with homosexuality then why should the gay person have to bear the weight on their shoulders.

Serving in the army is not serving with robots. Everyone has their own story and during off time people like to hang out and get to know each other.

There is an airforce base in the city that i live in and i run into air focer personnel all the time at bars. they hang out and go party together during their off time. many of them are stationed in a place that they are not from, and want to meet new people and even go on a couple dates. i don’t see anything wrong with that – straight or gay.

why should only gay people be punished for having a personal life?

it seems to me that if “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” were really a fair law, that applies evenly accross the board, then STRAIGHT military personnel should not be able to say they are straight!!!!!

otherwise the law itself is discriminatory! and discriminatory laws are unconstitutional!

Just do your job, come home, and do what you want to do..

@NaturalMineralWater the fact you don’t desire to read my comments to you due to just their lenghth sort of proves my point – you are set in your mind about something in which the majority of your information comes from your own life experiences & few all encompassing facts. You would rather stay in your place than learn something new. It is always from a place of denial-inequality & hate that we avoid the truths about ourselves & others.

@Jenniehowell See? That was much better. I can deal with one paragraph. Nice work.

@NaturalMineralWater LOL – funny – it will be a rare moment in time so perhaps I deserve some Lurve for it – ha ha ha ha

The president says he wants to do away with the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy in the military. This is not to be confused with George Bush’s “Don’t know, don’t care” policy.

(Letterman)

@Zen lol