Social Question

Zuma's avatar

What is so wrong with "socialism" that conservatives want to stop health insurance reform at all costs?

Asked by Zuma (5908points) August 21st, 2009

It appears that at the bottom of these deeply emotional outbursts in town hall meetings is a deep-seated aversion to “socialism.” You see it in the placards they carry accusing Obama of being a “socialist” as if that were something terrible and to be resisted at any cost. What is it that these people have in mind when they think of socialism and do they realize that Social Security and public education are socialist programs?

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57 Answers

potrick's avatar

When the town-hall protesters think of socialism, they are thinking of Soviet Russia and Cuba. The term “socialized medicine” has been used by American conservatives to protest any kind of government involvement in health care since FDR’s days in the 30s. They generally feel costs will go up if the government gets involved, even though costs are lower in supposedly socialized countries. (though most of the cheaper countries there have a two-tier system, not a completely socialized one.)

Noel_S_Leitmotiv's avatar

Im not for any system that heads even slightly toward fewer choices.

Funny how it never seems to cross anyones mind that i might be more or less satisfied with my health insurance and that i wouldnt want it to change.

The reason these people are so emotionally engaged is because they understand that the very way of life in America is under attack from socialism.

IchtheosaurusRex's avatar

What pass for conservatives in this country don’t really care about health care reform; they want to embarass Obama so they can pick up seats in the next election. That’s the only thing this is about. If you haven’t read this, do it now:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/06/AR2009080603854_pf.html

The town hallers don’t even know what they’re against. They’re being sent there by the Republican leadership because they hate Obama, maybe because he’s black, or they think he’ll take their guns away, or maybe because they really do think he wants to kill their granny. When you already hate somebody, you’ll believe any vile lie you’re told about him.

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv , you won’t have fewer choices if the bill passes, you’ll have more. That’s why the public option is called an “option.” Don’t believe the bullshit the Republicans are telling you.

jrpowell's avatar

It is political. They just want Obama to fail. Seriously, if Obama gets a public option that will be 50 million people that will find themselves grateful to Democrats for it. Republicans will be fucked for a long time. Republicans don’t care about you.. They care about power and money.

Like the one lady said, Keep the governments hands off my Medicare.

Noel_S_Leitmotiv's avatar

I sincerely believe that it wont remain an option. Im drawing my own conclusions, not believing ‘bullshit’.

Because hes black? please, Theres too many legitimate reasons to be opposed to Obama to need to resort to bringing up his race.

dpworkin's avatar

“Socialism” is a deliberately chosen scare-word used by the right wing to induce ignorant people to vote against their own interests. These kind of tactics have worked for years, Regan used Race baiting, Rove used homophobia. It’s all cynical, and all for the same purpose: to please their Corporate Overloerds.

marinelife's avatar

It’s just a rallying word whose meaning does not even fit here. It is a distortion.

IchtheosaurusRex's avatar

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv , why do you believe you’ll lose the insurance you have now? What are your sources? What led you to your conclusion? You are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but if you want to influence others, cite references.

MissAusten's avatar

I, for one, would love to have some other health insurance options. My husband is self-employed, and I am a stay at home mom. The cost to privately insure our family of five is ridiculous. Lower costs for small business owners? Sign me up! I’m so sick of writing a big check each month to insure a group of perfectly healthy people just in case someone gets into an accident or becomes chronically ill.

Conservative scare tactics make me so angry. My father in law and my father both completely believe everything they hear on Fox News because they want to. Why would the Democratic party want to institute changes that would make people hate them? They wouldn’t—they’d lose votes. It sickens me how easily people can believe the nonsense they hear on TV. I bet if Obama really had been born in Hawaii and wasn’t connected to domestic terror groups, he wouldn’t have these socialist leanings and a secret plan to rid the US of the elderly by denying them medical care. Sheesh.

Vincentt's avatar

I was just yesterday discussing with my dad how Americans seem to have a knee-jerk reaction when they hear the word “socialism”. I really never knew this (only knew Americans were far more right-wing on average than Dutch people) until it became such an issue with those elections – all of a sudden I heard socialism pronounced as a dirty word.

It’s been working quite well over here in the Netherlands for a while (granted, that’s more liberal-socialism, but it’s a lot more left-wing than the American system to be sure), but I guess the aversion it mostly a matter of culture. Americans are more afraid of government control – which I can understand, as it’s only one party that is in charge. In the Netherlands, the government consists of a coalition of different political parties, so one party wouldn’t even be able to gain full control that easily.

So yeah, to recap, I think it’s a matter of culture, with @Noel_S_Leitmotiv being a prime example of being afraid this “won’t stay an option” which you wouldn’t hear anytime soon in the Netherlands.

That said, I really can’t understand how somebody can be so selfish as to be afraid of the minimal chance that their existing health insurance might change shape while there is an outrageous number of people that aren’t insured but would be with such a plan.

ragingloli's avatar

that is the result of decades of cold war anti-soviet propaganda.

Noel_S_Leitmotiv's avatar

@IchtheosaurusRex: I fully understand the futility in attempting to influence others. Thats not what im trying to do here.

‘Socialism’? whatever, call it what you want, i dont want it.

As i conservative i am by definition opposed to increased goverment control. Healthcare ‘reform’ does not represent smaller government.

@ragingloli: The shambles of the USSR and the berlin wall is all the anti- soviet propaganda i need to see.

It doesnt take a genius to see that one would rather live in a country that needs walls to keep people out rather than in.

AstroChuck's avatar

Why aren’t these anti-socialist types up in arms about socialized public schools, roads, police, fire department, libraries, army, navy, etc…? I don’t hear anyone bitching about those. Socialism has been a part of this country in some way from the beginning.

Grisaille's avatar

@AstroChuck That’s a mighty fine question.

Noel_S_Leitmotiv's avatar

@AstroChuck: Okay, ill bitch about socialized public schools. As is usually the case the socailzed system results in poor quality.

Americas public schools suck, mainly because teachers cant be held accoutable due to tenure and unions.

So theres socialism in the American system, well of course, but think of it this way:

Without potassium your heart cannot beat, but get too much potassium and you die.

wundayatta's avatar

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv You may be satisfied just fine with your health insurance. I wonder—do you care about the uninsured and underinsured in the country? Do you understand that your health insurance costs more because of them? Do you know that you would have a higher amount of take-home pay, even after taxes, under a system that covers everyone, either with a “public option” or with single-payer?

Frankly, I think that so-called “free enterprisists” have a very short-sighted view of self-interest. They think that they will not be impacted if no one takes any responsibility for helping anyone else. They have a very limited understanding of how we are all in this together. Every person we seek to compete against by pulling away opportunity for them means we are less well off. We lose their potential.

Free-enterprisists are assuming we’re in a zero-sum game. If someone else takes more, then I get less. It’s not true. If someone else gets more, then I, who am already better off than they are, actually end up getting more. It drives the economy, and those on the top will always get further ahead. I think Malcolm Gladwell once wrote an article about this, or something similar.

In that article, he pointed out that hospitals that don’t do as well are always trying to emulate hospitals that offer better care. This does improve the care they provide, however the better hospitals have, meanwhile, gotten even further ahead. The gap between rich and poor will always rise, even if the rich are taxed at ever higher rates. Even if the ratio between the richest and poorest remains the same, percentage-wise, the gap, in dollars, constantly rises, because the rich are starting from a much wealthier place.

Unless you institute a 100% tax on the rich, you will never take away their incentive to keep on earning. In Norway, they have a 60% marginal tax rate on the highest incomes. Is their economy suffering? Not so you’d notice.

Socialism means caring for your neighbors. Socialism means understanding that we are all in this together. The best way to organize our collective efforts is through voluntary collaboration. Big organizations, whether government or the private sector stifle innovation. Small is better, but government can and does provide excellent service. Not in all cases, but in many.

Free market capitalism has so many inequities that it doesn’t work, either, if it is pure. A mixed system is the best, I think.

However, most people don’t have a clue what Socialism or Capitalism really mean. They react to them on a knee-jerk basis, just as @Noel_S_Leitmotiv shows, when he writes ‘Socialism’? whatever, call it what you want, i dont want it. It’s a non-thinking approach to policy that is endemic in the United States. It’s part of the mythic United States, and as such, it is an archetype. Archetypes won’t just go away. They live very deep inside people. It becomes a matter of faith.

The only way to dislodge faith is with evidence. Yet, evidence alone is not enough. You have to get people to actually consider the evidence. When faith tells them not to consider the evidence (and if they do, it is not very sincerely), there is nothing anyone else can do, I believe, to get them to be scientific about it. It’s a highly intractable problem. It can only be overcome over generations, if that. It has to start with our very young, and the education they receive.

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv serves a purpose in these discussions. He makes us marshal our evidence. However, we will never change his mind. Perhaps we can influence the minds of people who know little about the issue. But even they are subject to the myths, and like I said, myths have more power than almost anything.

Noel_S_Leitmotiv's avatar

@daloon said:

‘Perhaps we can influence the minds of people who know little about the issue.’

Sounds like a job for Whitehouse.gov and Laptop.org

When you say faith i think you mean morality. My individual morality tells me that liberal goverment isnt good for people.

dynamicduo's avatar

Nowadays it has nothing to do with the actual meaning behind the word – I guarantee you if you interviewed a group of people who “hate” socialism, they will each give you a different definition of what exactly it is, including those who foolishly believe Medicare is without government help.

As @AstroChuck delves, socialism is good in many ways. It’s what society is based on! We pay some money to help better everyone as a whole. Everyone benefits from having public schools, libraries, et cetera. I am of the opinion that everyone also benefits from having health care without the burden of inflated costs and miles of red tape.

In the States though, the word is used as a knee jerk thing, based on the events that have occurred in the past century. The USSR of course is one of the biggest examples of how a heavy handed and authoritarian socialist agenda can be implemented and the results of that. However, many people seem to ignore the good parts of socialism, such as observing our Canadian system versus being content with whatever the politicians say and who they get to preach for them, like that girl who said she had to come down here for surgery to remove a brain tumour, guess what, it was a benign cyst and now she’s in huge debt just like many Americans!). They are content with not examining the reality of the situation. They seem to ignore basic statistics such as that they spend the most money per-capita on health care yet are rated 37th in the world in terms of quality of care. Of course, then there’s the millions who are uninsured, and then the million who have to fight to get their claims approved who have insurance. There’s a problem with their system. So there is a choice, to try and fix it, as Obama is doing, or to not fix it at all, like the Republicans support. To not fix it, they need to encourage people to not discuss it, hence they use loaded words like “socialism” and telling a German person “heil hitlet” to derail the discussion. It’s really like real life trolling, in many cases.

Don’t get me wrong here, I’m a libertarian at heart and I would rather see options versus non-options, as well as less government. But seriously, your health “care” system is broken. And no one from the right is proposing any solutions or having any actual debate, they do things like bringing guns to the rallies and talk about death panels. Which is a shame, because the old Republican party with fiscal responsibility and limited government was a great thing, but this Republican party seems to have been hijacked by corporate interests and the religious sector. Of course, this is my Canadian vantage point. I’m certainly glad I don’t have to live through it like many of you do…

ragingloli's avatar

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv
The grave error you make in your judgement is assuming from the collapse of the Soviet Union, that everything that is socialist = bad. The Soviet Union collapsed because of being a dictatorship (dictatorships tend to collapse after some time) and because of a flawed approach to execution of socialism. The government tried to control everything, they controlled what was produced, when it was produced, how much was produced and how much it would cost. When people who are insufficiently trained in economic and business matters try to take on a task that even professionals would be overwhelmed with, it can not be sustained for long.
And that is the main, and massive, difference to the modern social market: the government only provides the funds and general directions and lets the market do the rest and decide the details on its own. That is why western Europe took such a different path from the Soviets and instead of a poverty ridden shithole became a prosperous continent. What matters is not if you do socialism, but how you execute it.

Grisaille's avatar

I moved away from the page and lost my progress. Crap.

I have a question. Why is a Public Option – a choice, optional, not mandatory – considered wrong to you, @Noel_S_Leitmotiv? What is the difference between a government run health insurance option and a corporate one? It is not a health insurance takeover. Never was, never will be. However, if the program is successful and people buy into it, of course more people will flock to it.

Is it because the government does not need high profit to pay health insurance executives? If anything, when the system finds equilibrium, it will spark competition in the health industry, forcing the private sector to lower prices and expand offers. Is that a bad thing?

But regardless, this isn’t a matter of price, cost, profit or what have you. This is a matter of life and death. Financial worth should never have dominion over life.

Zuma's avatar

Folks, let’s not get sidetracked into a debate about health care. What I want to know is what conservatives think socialism is and why they are so against it. So, far I haven’t heard anyone, least of all a conservative define what socialism is.

All I have heard so far is one guy saying (in effect) that if you call something “socialism” he “by definition” has to be against it (for reasons that are yet to be explained).

It’s pretty clear that “socialism” is a kind of dog whistle that signals right-wingers to attack. But do they have any principled, reasoned idea of why they do so, or are they just uneducated, weak-minded pawns responding to signals from the people who push their buttons?

dpworkin's avatar

They are just uneducated, weak-minded pawns responding to signals from the people who push their buttons. But you knew that.

Zuma's avatar

@pdworkin Maybe, but I don’t think they see it that way.

Zuma's avatar

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv “When you say faith i think you mean morality. My individual morality tells me that liberal goverment isnt good for people.”

Really? We’re really talking about socialism here, but go ahead and explain why either is “immoral.”

dpworkin's avatar

@MontyZuma Please explain why working class to middle class people of any political belief would cast their votes in favor of the wealthy elite and against their own fiscal, health and safety interests unless they had been professionally brainwashed all their lives.

Zuma's avatar

@pdworkin Noel’s position is, “I’ve got mine Jack, so screw everybody else.” So “moral” don’t you think?

He considers himself part of the priveliged class and considers it an imposition to share with people who are less fortunate than he, or to make any contribution to the common good. In a sense, he is the member of a priveliged class. He has health insurance, or so he thinks. Its about to be priced out of his reach because health care inflation far outstripes his wage earning potential, but he is too smug and complacent in is selfish “morality” that he can’t (or won’t) see this.

Perhaps this “morality” he speaks of is the actual brainwashing, so let’s see what he says about it.

dpworkin's avatar

I think he’s just drunk the Kool-Aid. They’ve been serving it up in very enticing ways. Even he doesn’t understand that he is fouling his own nest.

christine215's avatar

I’m not getting sidetracked into another healthcare debate.. I say that I believe in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

The very reasons that this country was founded are in oppostion to the socialist state:
MontyZuma, maybe YOU should look up “socialism”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
and maybe you should follow your own advise and not turn your original question into a debate about healthcare

are there some “social programs” in this country that work? yes, of course there are, but that does not mean that we should turn our backs and completely throw away the principals that this country are based on.

dpworkin's avatar

@christine215 Where in the Declaration, the Constitution or the Bill of Rights is redistribution of wealth prohibited? Page and line, please.

potrick's avatar

@pdworkin The right to “Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness” in the declaration of independence was a reference to John Locke’s “Life, Liberty and Property.” Because of this, its not too far-fetched to say that redistribution of wealth is inconsistent with historical American ideals. So while not prohibited there certainly is an argument to be had here. Whether this means government-run health care is a bad thing is a completely different argument.

dpworkin's avatar

So I see you have found it in Locke. Where do you find an explicit prohibition in the Constitution? You’re not a :::shudder::: Judicial Activist, are you?

ragingloli's avatar

@potrick
the equality of whites and blacks is also inconsistent with historical american ideals.

MissAusten's avatar

Let’s not forget the equality of men and women…

Zuma's avatar

@christine215 Yes, what are these “principles” exactly?

By the way, there were no “socialist states” when this country was founded. The first implemented instance of socialism was a social security retirement scheme in Germany in the 1880s, instituted at the behest of the conservative Otto Von Bismark.

I’ve taken several graduate courses in political economics and I know very well what socialism entails; I’ve read Heilbroner, Polyni and Schumpeter (among others), and there is nothing in socialism that is inherently anti- or undemocratic. In fact, there is nothing in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Federalist Papers, or any other founding document that prescribes, much less mandates, what sort of economic system we should have.

Nonetheless, the political system was explicitly set up with checks and balances to prevent the concentrations of wealth and power that would subvert democracy and lead back to oligarchy, plutocracy, aristocracy and monarchy.

@potrick And just how, exactly, is socialism antithetical to “Life, Liberty, or the Pursuit of Happiness”? You are basing your argument on an allusion to John Locke? A reference that was self-consciously abandoned? And one which, even if we are to take it at face value, poses no argument against socialism?

Also, could you please tell me how, exactly, slavery and Jim Crow are not a redistribution of wealth from one class to another?

What you both are offering are slogans and bumper sticker cliches, not arguments.

potrick's avatar

Hey everyone. I’m not conservative, just pointing out that there is an intellectual core to conservative ideas. It’s not my fault that’s such a hard point to prove.

galileogirl's avatar

Socialism was a dirty word in the 50’s through the 70’s and that idea has hung on but most people don’t remember why. Communism and Socialism were mistakenly identified as the same. Now we understood why we hated the Communists. It was going to be a fight to the death over who was going to be top dog. By 1990 that had been decided but the us v them mentality remmained

We had a dicussion about this at work yesterday and one guy said we should have exposed the excesses of the extreme right after the McCarthy era. Americans have a tendency to lose interest after a period of political unrest Instead of cleaning out the wounds, the infection festers and contiues to keep the disease viable,

We also forget some of the things that work. We had a decent (though not perfect) health care system until the early 1970’s. Most insurance companies and hospitals were not for profit and doctors were healers not medical entrepeneurs. With the conservative and incorrect notion that competition was always right, medical corporations were formed. With better funding they were able to attract the most profitable patients leaving the most expensive, (under insured and sickest) to the non-profits. As those hospitals failed it became easy to buy them up and switch them to money makers.

Once these corporations consortiums ruled, a lot of other things started to happen. We go through a few decades when big medicine and big pharm are lobbying for lower corporate taxes and virtual price fixing. As we changed the way we supported education, when student loan interest went from 3% to double digits and tuition rose faster than inflation, Drs had different challenges, Their tratment choices and fees became dictated by insurance companies and with 20 years of student debt hanging over their heads, the way they practiced had to change, They had to have a 15 minute turnover and could no longer take on any pro bono work.

We have seen that in any industry around the world when that industry behaves in a way detrimental to the people of the nation to the point they can control the legislature, the only option is to nationalize/socialize that industry

AstroChuck's avatar

Yeah. Look at all those horrible socialist governments in Scandinavia. What a terrible quality of life those Swedes have. Not only do they force universal healthcare on them but they make them take several weeks vacation, have them work a grooling 36 hour week, and the government actually takes care of their elderly. My God! And this is what those liberals want for us? For shame, you evil leftists.

Vincentt's avatar

Funny. by the way, how the liberals are the socialists. Here in the Netherlands, you have the People’s Party for Freedom and Democracy, which are often referred to as the liberals and and have traditionally been the go-to right-wing party (though this has changed the past few years), and the socialist party, traditionally the more extreme left-wing party.

Then again, the People’s Party for Freedom and Democracy, being right-wing for us, would probably be considered left-wing in the US.

AstroChuck's avatar

@Vincentt- It’s funny that at the time of its inception the US was the most liberal nation in the world. Now even South Africa is more progressive.

dalepetrie's avatar

Simply put, the people who spout the most ignorant rhetoric are usually allowing blowhards to think for them, because they lack the capacity to do it themselves, so they listen to the Limbaugh’s and Hannity’s and Coulter’s to tell them all manner of things. They don’t need a reason, they’ll hate the opposition because that’s what Republicans do in their estimation.

Now the people who actually do consider some of the facts have been brainwashed over years into thinking that socialism (an economic concept) is the same as communism (a socio-economic concept) which is the same as facism (a social concept). Socialism means you’re a friggin’ commie. So they think in terms of Marxism and believe that people who want a more social democracy (a term many of them have never heard) based in a capitalist economic system are really people who want to cede control over everything (not just economically speaking) related to personal choice to the government. It’s fear of big brother.

And of course it has benefited the right greatly to propegate this myth, if people didn’t believe that lie, there would be no Republicans.

What they don’t understand is that the liberal ideal is not to give control of everything to the government, but to put in the government’s hands (and to take the profit motive out of) anything that serves the public trust or public good. Most liberals will agree that Capitalism is a pretty damn good system (much to the surprise of conservatives who want to paint us all as Socialists/Communists), we just feel that there are certain things which comprise either a social safety net for those who fall through the cracks of society (health and welfare) and things that contribute to the betterment of our society (education, communication, transportation) where government has the ability to ensure that the public safety and well-being is the FIRST concern, and is NOT considered secondary to the profit motive…some thing are just too important to put in the hands of people who would make money off it.

So operatives on the right misconstrue the fact that there are a very few specific important things we as liberals want the government to support via tax dollars, and that we want to right size government, not miniaturize it for the sake of lower taxes. But the main problem with this is if you ask people in terms of whether they believe in a strong social safety net that is there if they should ever need it through no fault of their own, somewhere around 75 to 85 percent of Americans want this. But if you ask if we should spend YOUR tax dollars, giving welfare to LAZY people, you get no support for that statement, which is the lie the right wing sells. And because people are greedy and fearful that someone is going to take something I earned and THEY didn’t, it’s classic us vs. them hysteria. Which is what is necessary, because when people see the human side of these issues, they are on board. But when they see themselves as the victims, that’s when they start to think that this should be everyman for himself, I got mine, you get yours, and you’re lazy if you can’t.

If most of the people who fear that Democrats are going to make this a Socialist country really understood what a Social Democracy was and how well it could function within a capitalist society, they’d stop fighting tooth and nail against anything which would take some money out of the hands of a few people who make that money by exploiting the suffering of others.

Zuma's avatar

Why aren’t the self-styled conservatives answering this question? What I am looking for is their objections to socialism. Is it the weekend, or is this just too close to home to examine closely. It is, from what I gather, the central core belief of Republicans. Yet they don’t seem to eager to defend it.

dalepetrie's avatar

@MontyZuma – to be fair, @Noel_S_Leitmotiv answered this question, he just failed to make a convincing point, and his argument sounded a lot like what I described above.

Zuma's avatar

@dalepetrie I don’t think his statement answers the question. All he said was “I am a self-identified conservative, so by definition I am obligated not to like socialism.” He gives no reason or argument.

He an unsubstantiated assertion that teachers are not held “accountable,” but apparently he is unaware that for the past 8 years, every grade level has been relentlessly tested under the No Child Left Behind initiative instituted by Bush II, for the sake of “accountability,” and it has been the single most destructive thing to happen to the public education system since the tax revolts of Proposition 13. He also seems to be blissfully unaware that higher education is also public, and that our Universities are among the best in the world.

But yes, he exhibits all the signs of “data blindness” and analysis paralysis of someone shielding a fundamental belief from critical scrutiny.

Vincentt's avatar

@AstroChuck Ha, also, the liberals here are also often conservative, while the social-liberals are progressives.

It’s hard to define an entire nation as conservative, progressive, liberal or socialist or whatever. You might have a country with a very conservative economic policy yet progressive when it comes to the education system. I suppose you’re also looking at a particular facet of the US and SA.

“The liberal idea”, which @dalepetrie mentions, over here is considered to concern restricting government control, or more accurately, promoting self-control. Liberty, freedom. Socialism would be more about taking care of people, also the weaker. Social-liberal tries to find a middle ground. I get the impression these terms don’t mean what they did anymore in the US, is that correct?

@MontyZuma I think what also might play a role is that there are many more progressives here on Fluther. At least, I often get that idea.

Zuma's avatar

@Vincentt Interesting. If what you mean by “self-control” is the same thing people mean over here as “personal responsibility” then your liberals are like our conservatives, and our liberals are like your socialists. We have the same tension between personal and collective responsibility, although we are very shy when it comes to exercising collective responsibility, mainly because our “weaker” tend to be unpopular people of color.

Since you are in the Netherlands, I wonder if you could comment on the French system. It is ranked #1 in terms of health outcomes, but someone in another thread said that it is terribly expensive and that taxes are onerous. Do the French find what they get worth what they pay?

Vincentt's avatar

Wow, I wonder how those terms got to differ so much…

And no, I can’t really comment on the French system, however, I think the Dutch system might be interesting as well. It’s was also ranked high in the 2000 WHO report (17th), spending 9.8% of the GDP in 2007 according to a OECD report. This is above average but far less than the US and e.g. Norway. (France, btw, according to the same report spends 11%, also far less than the US.)

Anyway, in general, most Dutch people are satisfied. Sure, people like to complain, but not having to worry about being one illness away from bankruptcy is nice, as well as being able to go to the doctor if you feel something is wrong so you can catch things early on. When people complain about health care here, it’s about the waiting lists mostly, not the quality of the care. Occasionally a debate about medical errors, but of course, those will also be too high.

So yeah, taxes for the highest incomes are 52% over here, but you get a lot in return. An interesting article to read might be this one where a NYTimes reporter goes to live in the Netherlands, initially with skepticism over the high tax rate, but learning to appreciate it later on: Going Dutch – How I Learned to Love the European Welfare State. A few generalization errors, drawing conclusions from the Netherlands over the whole Europe, but for the Netherlands I’d say it’s rather accurate.

critter1982's avatar

@MontyZuma, Here are my objections:

The first issue I take is that under socialism, incentives play a very minor role or are even ignored completely. A centrally planned economy without market prices or profits, where property is owned by the state, is a system without an effective incentive mechanism to direct economic activity. By failing to emphasize incentives, socialism is a theory inconsistent with our human nature, that incentives don’t matter. Ever try to get a kid to do something without offering them candy, it doesn’t work.

The second issue I take is that prices are now driven by a central system. Take for example the end of the 1970’s when OPEC restricted the supply of oil or in late 2008 when oil prices rose dramatically. The information transmitted by higher oil prices provided the appropriate incentive structure to both buyers and sellers. Buyers increased their effort to conserve a now more precious resource and countries dependant on foreign natural resources were forced into looking into alternative energy sources. The only alternative to a market price, is a controlled or fixed price, which always transmits misleading information about relative scarcity. Take for example what happened in the 1970s when U.S. gas prices were controlled. Long lines developed at service stations all over the country because the price for gasoline was kept artificially low by the government. The full impact of scarcity was not accurately conveyed. We could have eliminated the lines at the pump in one day by allowing the price to rise to clear the market.

The 3rd issue I take is the tragedy of the commons. For example back in the sixteenth century when the British communally owned certain grazing lands by villages which were made available for public use. The land was quickly overgrazed and eventually became worthless as villagers exploited the communally owned resource. When assets are publicly owned, there are no incentives in place to encourage wise stewardship. While private property creates incentives for conservation and the responsible use of property, public property encourages irresponsibility and waste. If everyone owns an asset, people act as if no one owns it. And when no one owns it, no one really takes care of it. Public ownership encourages neglect and mismanagement.

Without the incentives of market prices, profit-and-loss accounting, and well-defined property rights, socialist economies remain stagnate. The economic atrophy that occurs under socialism is a direct consequence of its neglect of economic incentives. Socialism was not the driving force behind America becoming the number one world power, it was capitalism, and after WWI, the US made more goods than any other nation including Britain, France, Germany, and Japan.

Now I do understand the reverse argument as capitalism fails to control and/or prevent the dangerous concentration of power that has always plagued the world. Monopolies and Oligopolies are only controlled by consumer groups and government regulation. Additionally, capitalism significantly increases the wealth of consumer goods but provides not incentive base for public services.

IMO there needs to be a happy medium in these ideologies. There needs to be a semi-restricted free market rather than an absolute free market. The problem is that nobody knows where this happy medium is, if we did then we wouldn’t be in this economic downturn. But again, IMO a capitalistic economy driven by the free market which generates significantly unequal powers can be fixed much easier than a socialistic market that generates equal power but remains stagnant as the world changes around it.

critter1982's avatar

@MontyZuma: Realize that my statements above have little to do with the whole health care issue, and my view on health care varies from what you would identify as the “self-styled conservatives”.

Zuma's avatar

@critter1982 Thank you for your long and thoughtful reply. It is refreshing to see from your side.

What you are describing as a centrally planned or “command economy,” is actually Communism. I agree with you that it has everything wrong with it that you say it does, but that is not what is being proposed here. Communism arose from an attempt to graft Socialism onto an economically undeveloped society which had no markets to speak of. But let me back up and define a number of terms to put all this in perspective:

First, let’s take a moment to recall what Liberalism is. Classical Liberalism was the original ideology of the American Revolution. It emphasized human rationality, natural (inalienable) rights, free markets, individual property rights, civil liberties and constitutional limitations on government. It flourished in early America because there was no entrenched establishment based on inherited privilege, tradition or dogma.

In the 1960s, a resurgent liberalism attempted to extend the promise the promise of natural rights to those who were left out of the original deal (blacks, women, gays, and other minorities). And they were criticized by Conservatives for trying to go “too fast.” By the way, Classical Conservatism, in the tradition of Edmund Burke, sought to preserve social continuity by limiting the pace of social change—which was beginning to accelerate with the advent of modernity since the Industrial Revolution.

Modernity was, and is, the continuing the attempt revise and reorder every human institution according to rational principles—to introduce routinizing and rationalizing technologies wherever possible, and get human life “down to a science.” In the late 1960s, conservatives embraced modernity with a vengeance in the form of a kind of “let ’er rip” free-market capitalism, which Robert Heilbroner aptly called, “business radicalism.” This was condensed into “trickle down” economics which, of course, greatly enriched the rich but has resulted in stagnant or declining real (after inflation) wages for everyone else.

Here, unfettered free market forces tend to reduce human beings to a commodity: labor so that people are expected to relocate and adapt to the economy rather than the other way around, even if it means uprooting families from their traditional communities and relocating them elsewhere. Markets also transform the natural world into a commodity; i.e, Nature becomes “real estate,” posing problems of environmental degradation that make the problem of the commons pale by comparison. Human wealth also becomes commodified into the form of “capital” and technology. Liberals and Progressives have had to take on the role of trying to slow things down, so that people are not destroyed by capitalism’s winds of “creative destruction.”

Socialism, in its earliest sense, was one of the forces of modernity. Originally it meant the “alienation” or “spinning off” of economic functions that were traditionally done by the family, into “society” in such a way that this function could be rationalized by technology and divisions of labor in a wage labor economy. Care of the sick, for example, was spun off from the family to creates a medical profession, consisting of doctors, nurses, midwives and hospitals—and more recently, a whole scientific establishment, and a health insurance industry. Likewise, the making of clothes was spun out of the family into manufactured clothing industry and a retail trade. And, more recently, the preparation of food has been spun off from the family into a vast restaurant, fast-food and prepared food industry.

Some of these family functions, such as education, criminal justice, providing for people during their old age or during periods of unemployment are inherently unprofitable; so these functions have been socialized into the state. And, it is this latter aspect of socialism that has come down to us as the dominant meaning of “socialism” today among people who use the term in it’s precise economic and historical sense.

One of the consequences of modernity is that the family has been transformed from a unit of production to a unit of consumption. So, when you hear traditionalists rail against “socialism” or “liberalism” and the loss of “traditional family values,” what they are really complaining about is the modernity-driven socialism that has transformed the family into an engine of consumerism, and only incidentally about the functions the family falling into the hands of the state. Unfortunately, traditionalists tend to view things in rather individualistic, moralistic, and religious terms so, they tend to see the forward thrust of secularization, rationalization and the spinning off of the economic functions of the family in terms of the failings of individual moral character rather than systemic economic forces playing themselves out across history. For example, instead of viewing the “decline of the family” in terms of people moving away to new job markets, or the transformations of values and tastes engendered by consumerism, they tend to blame it on individual selfishness as expressed in dope, divorce, abortion, feminists, and gays. These, of course, are the effects of systemic changes, not their cause.

As we have seen, socialism has both a public and a private face. The fast food industry, of course, is organized for private profit; whereas, the public schools and social security are nonprofit ventures run for the benefit of the public by the state. Under Communism, there is no private sector; everything is socialized and run by the state for the benefit of the public, usually with poor results.

Under Democratic Socialism, as they have in Sweden, there is a private sector, organized for private profit, but that profit is heavily taxed in order to provide a kind of equality of lifestyle based on public benefits, with excellent results. Even our own “free market” system contains socialized sectors providing public education and social insurance and health care (Medicaid and Medicare), and they work very well. But the privatized part of our health care system, and attempts to privatize education, prisons, and warfare, have all turned into profiteering boondoggles that are at least as inefficient in their way as the Communist’s attempt to socialize manufacturing and service industries.

Since people are currently tossing the term “Nazi” around without much regard to it’s actual meaning, let’s consider what that means: National socialism, the economic program of the Nazis, was something altogether different that Democratic Socialism. Here, the object of socialism is not the welfare of the individual, as it is under Liberalism, Democratic Socialism, and Communism, but the welfare of the State—in particular, the militarized State and the corporations that profit from this militarization. In other words, the whole society and all its institutions are being rationalized and streamlined for the waging of war. And because National Socialism puts the welfare of the state and its corporations before the welfare of the individual, it is not shy about purging itself of “useless” citizens, “decadent” ideologies, criminals, deviants, the racially “inferior” or anyone else it for whom it can find no rational use.

When a society commits itself to total war mentality like this, there is no room for dissent. Criticism, dissent and even “lack of enthusiasm” become treason. The Nazis purged leftists and trade unionists because they were Democratic Socialists who wanted the state to work “by the people, for all the people.” The National Socialists despised democracy, and were intent on building a two-tier society consisting of Pure Aryans, who would be the Master Race, while everyone else would be enslaved and eventually liquidated when they needed the room. The Nazis didn’t build the autobahns and the Volkswagen for “the masses,” they built them in preparation for war. They also paid for these projects with slave labor and the liquidated assets of the Jews, and others they purged.

As you will recall, capitalism collapsed in the 1920s, and it nearly collapsed in 2008 (and it might yet still collapse). The New Deal Liberalism of FDR was based on a Socialist critique of Capitalism—and that critique is still valid today as it was then. Capitalism has inherent structural weaknesses:

1. Market societies are inherently prone to boom and bust cycles;
2. Market societies are inherently prone to oligopoly and monopoly;
3. Capitalists can not be trusted to voluntarily regulate themselves, so market societies tend are inherently prone to pervasive gaming and organized crime;
4. The unrestrained rapacity of capitalists leads to a form of class warfare in which the rich get richer and the poor get poorer until the rich disenfranchise the poor.
5. Once the rich consolidate their power in the form of a Corporate State, they tend to instigate wars for profit.
6. This leads to environmental degradation, displaced populations, epidemic disease, widespread poverty and a collapse back into third-world conditions.

FDR’s reforms were an attempt to save Capitalism from itself. Regulatory agencies helped clean up the cesspools of graft and corruption that were pervasive at the time; trust busting made sure that the rich didn’t dominate the economy; interest group politics made sure that everyone got a seat at the political table. The separation of banking and securities investment ensured that capital markets were insulated from speculative bubbles. The FDIC socialized the risks of bank failure, greatly strengthening the system. Make work projects put people back to work. Social Security gave people some measure of pension security.

Since then, those structural reforms have been gradually undermined, leading us back to an unregulated financial sector engaging in speculative bubbles characterized by boom and bust. So far, Obama’s reforms have been tepid compared to FDRs, insofar as they seek only to patch up the failing bank and credit systems, rather than fundamentally alter the power relationships between creditor and debtor, producer and consumer, and employer and worker. Obama’s credit “reform” restrains the credit card industry from engaging in certain predatory practices, but it still allows them to charge upwards of 30% interest.

One exception is health care. This involves one-sixth of the economy, and it is absolutely corrupt with waste fraud and abuse. The higher you go in the industry, the more it is like organized crime. None of the proposals on the table have anything to do with the government taking over any hospitals, HMOs, drug companies, or setting up a planned economy that will set prices and allocate services, or anything like that. The proposal is simply to let the government lay down some ground rules prohibiting insurance companies from denying people coverage for pre-existing conditions, requiring prior authorizations for every little thing (which are often automatically denied), denying people coverage because they inadvertently failed to disclose some unrelated thing, or pressuring people into high deductible plans, or plans with inadequate coverage.

The other thing it proposes to do is to organize an insurance pool that will compete with private insurance plans. The government has economies of scale and other advantages that allow them to do this very cheaply. This is the so-called public option. And it is absolutely necessary to have private insurers compete against it, since otherwise there is no incentive to wring any of the waste, fraud, and abuse out of the current system. So, you see, the proposal is to let the markets do the work of reforming the system, which the health insurance industry is opposed to, since they’ve got most state markets sewn up with just a couple of insurers and there isn’t much meaningful competition at all. Also, much of the profit in the for-profit system is actually due to waste, fraud and abuse, since the money ends up in private pockets rather than in actual medical services.

Sorry for the length, but that should set the record straight about what Socialism is and isn’t.

Vincentt's avatar

GA for @critter1982 for actually answering the question (and allowing @MontyZuma to give his lecture ;-)

MissAusten's avatar

This fascinating video gives an in-depth explanation for why one segment of the US population is opposed to health care reform. ;)

mattbrowne's avatar

Some American conservatives don’t believe in solidarity. They believe in free market fundamentalism and predatory capitalism. But in the long run solidarity will prevail.

DarlingRhadamanthus's avatar

Come live in the UK….especially under Gordon Brown. Come live here and see what is wrong with socialism. I was a super, duper, placard carrying liberal and then I came here and saw socialism in action and the elimination of the middle class…the fat cats get fatter and the lean cats on benefits just stay there with no dreams, hopes or aspirations. And the middle class is taxed out of their bloomin’ minds to support both the fat cats and the lean cats and they are left with soup bones while the other two groups eat quite well.

I speak from experience. I have no stats, no big theories, no historical precedent. I lived well in America and I had dreams. Here, there is no room for dreaming, your days are consumed by survival even when you make a good salary. The other two groups do well——one is wealthy and the other gets benefits of all kinds…for everything. It’s the little guy in the middle who is attempting to carve out a better life that loses. Benefits for single parents and the elderly, I understand…but false claim benefits cost the taxpayer astronomical amounts of money. It’s not fair.

What’s wrong with this picture? Socialism in a nutshell.

AstroChuck's avatar

@DarlingRhadamanthus- The UK is far from a socialist state.

mattbrowne's avatar

@AstroChuck – To some everything left of predatory capitalism is perceived as socialism. Taxes is disguised socialism. I wonder why these people are not suggesting to run the military based on charity. That would be a truly capitalistic paradise.

DarlingRhadamanthus's avatar

@AstroChuck….You are one of my favorite Flutherites. But I beg to differ on this…come here and hang out. You can sit on the other side of the pond and pontificate, but actually living here is another story entirely.

And @mattbrowne…Your dismissal is incredibly patronizing. And again, with no merit.

mattbrowne's avatar

@DarlingRhadamanthus – Labeling the UK and Gordon Brown as socialist deserves a harsh answer. You were crossing a line here. Real socialism is what happened in East Germany before 1989. The UK is a free country with a market society. There are people who own businesses. Your comment was an insult to all the victims of the totalitarian regime ruling East Germany. Normally my anwers are relatively moderate. Sorry, I really had to be very frank about this one. Social market democracy is not the same as socialism.

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