Do you believe in male circumcision, do you feel that God/Nature made a mistake that man needs to "correct" at birth without the consent of the child?
Just wondering what feedback I can get. Me personally, have mixed feelings but I’m sort of hanging towards, it should be the choice of the person, being such an important part.
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No and No God did not make a mistake. This was started by religious fanatics as a way to identify the males born to their religion.
It is odd thought that people are so open minded about male circumcision but those same people will raise seven kinds of hell about female circumcision. Circumcision is wrong, no matter the sex of the child.
If an adult wants it done, that would be their decision.
Asked 3 Weeks ago, here
BTW God doesn’t make mistakes.
Parents make a lot of decisions that may not always be best for the child, more than just having a piece of skin surgically removed.
No, I do not think circumcision is preferable.
I believe in male circumcision, only because it is the symbol of the covenant between God and the descendants of Abraham. I don’t think it is perfecting a wrong nor is it necessarily “cleaner,” easier though it may be to keep “it” clean without a foreskin. The scientific evidence concerning the health and hygiene of men with and without foreskins is about even (although some evidence suggests that circumcised men seem less likely to get infected with HIV, for some reason).
If not being done in accordance with religious tradition, in reference to the covenant of God and Abraham, I see no other use for it.
I believe my wiener didn’t need a sweater, has nothing to do with god.
I feel male circumcision is just as wrong as female genital mutilation.
Female genital mutilation removes sensation (and pleasure) from sexual activity for women.
Circumcision increases male sensitivity, and is found to help prevent AIDS infection.
@filmfann Actually, circumcision decreases male sensitivity. The foreskin protects the glands of the penis, keeping it sensitive. With no foreskin, the glands are exposed to friction and the like and become desensitized.
I am speaking from a friend’s experience. He was circumcised while in the Navy.
The WHO (World Health organization) has gone on record recommending male circumcision in third world countries where there is a high rate of heterosexual HIV transmission because studies are demontrating a decreased risk to men of acquiring HIV.
I asked one of the pediatricians in the medical group I practice with just this week whether the AAP (American Academy of Pediatricians) was altering their stance advising against routine male circumcision here in the US in light of this information, and her answer was no, that the conditions the WHO was basing their recommendations on did not apply here.
The foreskin is there for a specific purpose, if it was not needed,
(for the Godly) God would not have put it there,
(for heathens) if it was not needed, evolution would not have created it, and subsequently would have remove it .
@DrBill that’s not true at all. there are plenty of instances where certain qualities and traits are not evolutionarily beneficial yet still remain prevalent.
and evolution doesn’t “create” anything….
@DrBill So you’re saying some day people will stop getting wisdom teeth?
Genital mutilation is genital mutilation. I think it’s horrible. If you choose later, fine. But no individual should have such a thing done to them without consent.
@DrBill Didn’t it evolve to protect the penis when clothing wasn’t used? I think that our traditions of wearing clothing a great deal of the time might make the evolutionary purpose kind of redundant.
@tinyfaery But the thing is, people get so hung up on this one thing…they seem to fight tooth and nail about it, then forget about the rest of the parenting decision a parent makes. Like…vaccincations or other medical procedures, how much is too much tv, which foods to feed them…all of those decisions have consequences for the child. The tv watching could cause the child to have diminished developmental skills. The food the parent chooses could wreak havoc on the childs insides…nasty processed foods, that some parents don’t even think about, and could cause life long things like obseity or diabetes for that childs future.
There are days I feel guilty when I don’t feel I stimulate my son enough intellectually…but there is not a day that goes by that I regret getting him circumcised.
If my child is going to hate me, it’s not because I had his foreskin removed. I cared for his penis after his surgery, I know what he went through and I did not feel I was mutilating him.
@casheroo You can explain it however you like. I still think it’s invasive and unnecessary. I’m not hung up on anything. I think parents do hideous things to their children in the name of so many things, all the time. Do whatever you gotta do.
@casheroo – great answer. Too often people are what I call penny wise and pound foolish and what you said points that out very well.
I want to know how sensitivity is measured. Do they take one uncircumcised man, he has sex with a woman and they have something attached to him and it monitors how good it is. Then they take the same guy, circumcise him and he has sex with the same woman and they measure again and compare??? There can never be an accurate measure that I can see.
To me it is one of those things that is individual and it is a decision usually made by parents at birth. I really don’t think it is anyone’s business except those involved.
I knew of 2 men who were not done and they both wished they had been because they were the odd ones. I think doctors advise against because of malpractice problems. One of these days some guy is bound to sue his parents and doctor and hospital and everyone else in sight.
Comparing it to female circumcision is like comparing apples and oranges, they have different intent and purpose and different outcome.
I’m with @Facade here
doing anything to the genitals of the child whether it be foreskin, clitoral, or because the child is intersex is wrong – there should be consent of the child and since there isn’t it’s wrong, period. and doing it for a religious reason, wow, even more wrong.
Routine infant male circumcision is a barbaric practice that no thinking feeling human being would consent to. The glans is connected to the foreskin on boys up to about the age of seven or so. To remove it means to RIP the foreskin away from the glans.
It slays me that people will whine and bitch about people that hunt, kill and eat meat, but then have this barbaric process performed on their infant sons because some ‘book written by Bronze Age goat herders’ says so.
The foreskin is more than just a piece of skin, it is a doubled over section of extremely sensitive flesh, which means it is twice as big as it looks, it has thousands of nerve endings, and glands that produce various lubricating substances, and blood vessels. Go Here, here and here to see what was done to me and thousands of other boys from my generation, and what is still being done in the name of some meaningless covenant of a religion I didn’t believe in when I was born.
Routine male circumcision is an evil and barbaric practice when there is no medical need for such brutality.
@evelyns_pet_zebra I don’t know how anyone can look at those pictures and still be for circumcision. It’s beyond me.
The way mohels do circumcisions, it doesn’t look nearly that bad (I just attended a friend’s son’s Brit Milah this past January).
@evelyns_pet_zebra Those pics aren’t fair. That’s like trying to convince someone not to get breast enhancement, rhinoplasty or any other plastic surgery by showing them pics of the patients during the surgery or just a day or two after the procedure. The results of plastic surgery takes months of healing time to become evident. Same thing with circumcision.
Say what you will, but I think my circumcised penis is gorgeous compared with the foreskinned variety.
@drdoombot Pictures of cosmetic surgeries don’t discourage me from participating in it, but the circumcision pictures do (even though I won’t be having children).
@Facade Why? What’s the difference? Once of the main reasons people do it is cosmetic enhancement.
No, I do not. I don’t think that God or Nature would have that exist, it makes no sense that a part of the body needs to be removed through painful surgery. I simply do not believe in removing a part of a person’s body without their consent. I wouldn’t agree with it was removing a toe or preventing the child from ever growing facial or anything like that. It’s up the person whose body parts they are and no one else.
If anyone has time to read this ridiculously long Wikipedia article, that would be tight. I have to go to bed now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_analysis_of_circumcision
The summary states that findings indicate that there are few real benefits to it and that ultimately the decision to circumcise should be made on non-medical grounds.
@DominicX I’ve read that article. It also states that it is the parents’ decision to do what they believe to be in the best interest of the child.
@avvooooooo
Yes, but the question remains: where does the “best interest” come from? How can parents know what is in the best interest of their infant? How can parents judge what will happen to their infants in the future? Like I said before, 1% of boys get UTIs in the first place, the American Cancer Society does not recommend circumcision, and the American Academy of Pediatrics says it has little effect on optimal hygiene.
No I don’t believe in it, no it’s not a mistake (though you could say there are such mistakes, as we evolve as a species and have leftovers from our previous states) and personally I did not get it and I’m fine and clean. I just have to remember to wash myself more than once a month. I don’t see any particular need for it now that we have invented soap.
My daughter was born with a tumor which could possibly be malignant, and would not allow her to walk unless removed. So in that case we gave her an operation, and also took the chance to remove her cocyx. But I wouldn’t have let anyone touch her otherwise.
@avvooooooo
I just looked up stuff. That was the point of what I said up there. I didn’t pull that out of my ass. It’s also a problem because too many uncircumcised males aren’t taught how to properly clean that area.
@DominicX I can’t remember where I read it, it very, very late here now, but there’s also a link to increased sexual dysfunction in uncircumcised men for some reason. It was a reputable medical source that found that one…
Nevermind, found it.
This is one of those subjects like spanking. It always seems as if everyone is trying to change each others mind. I figure if you are opposed to it, don’t have it done, if you think it is a good idea, have it done.
From my nursing friends I have heard that more women catch std’s from uncircumcised men and uncircumcised males are frequently in the office for infections because they don’t clean properly, that applies to men and boys. I have also heard women say giving oral sex to an uncircumcised males can be very unpleasant.
It also seems to be a generational thing, when I was young and when my friends were having children, it was just done, there was little discussion. Now it seems to be out of vogue.
I don’t recall “God” ever making a mistake, but I do recall the parents genes being passed on. I think if it’s what they want then that’s fine. Also they have the option of not having the procedure done and getting it done when the male is older, when he can choose if he wants it or not. But having it uncircumcised can be risky with STDs and infections. In the name of health, I think it’s best to go through with the procedure.
Yes. He looked down at his creations and said: “Hell – a lot of my creations are total dickheads. What can i do to improve things?”
@rooeytoo, uncircumcised males are frequently in the office for infections because they don’t clean properly
By this same logic, we would have dentists pull all of our children’s teeth and fit them with dentures because so many end up back in the dentists office later with cavities and gum disease.
Parents who don’t circumsize their sons are sometimes not given good information about the care of the uncircumsized penis and try to clean under the foreskin of their small infants. The foreskin is actually adherent to the head of the penis for at least the first 6 months, sometimes for several years – that’s why the photos linked to by @evelyns_pet_zebra are so cringeworthy – the doctor performing the circumcision has to pull the skin loose before cutting it off. If parents try to force the skin back before it’s ready, you can create inflammation and set up the bay for ongoing infection problems. The best plan is usually for parents to leave the foreskin alone for at least 6 months, then occasionally gently check to see if it retracts. Once it does, then cleaning under the foreskin should become part of the normal hygeine routine.
Regardless of all the arguments I’ve seen so far, there is something that intrigues me overall: this discussion would not even happen in Europe, where cirumcision is simply something done by Jews and Muslims. No Christian or Atheist (the main two religious groups) here would even consider it, or care to discuss it. If you have a willy…well, simply wash it.
Similarly, the discussion would be just as irrelevant in the Middle East. Boys just get it done at birth, and everybody does it, and doesn’t think about it, and cannot imagine it any other way. Nobody stops to think whether there are reasons of hygiene for doing it, or whether perhaps these reasons are now obsolete.
To take this a step further, there is also female mutilation in parts of Africa, which is also seen as “normal” and nobody thinks about it. As is the assumption that women should be under men, or that a man can have many wives, or perhaps that a man may only have one wife, or that children should not vote, smoking is good for you, alcohol is blessed by God and drugs help clear your mind. And that there is a dragon living in that cave beyond the next forest.
I guess it’s a good thing that we’re even having this discussion. I didn’t even know there were Americans that would be for it, I always assumed Christians simply didn’t do it (at least not for the last 17–18 centuries). It’s nice that most of the arguments I’ve seen here are not religious (regardless of their actual validity).
@Jack79, my understanding is that circumcision became common practice here in the US because WW1 soldiers had problems with infections while stuck in the trenches without the ability to do normal hygeine routines. It wasn’t very long before our military hierachy decided to force all recruits to be circumsized – sort of a preemptive war?
From there it wasn’t much of a leap to routine newborn circumcision. Up until the 1960s, new moms weren’t even asked to sign a consent form for their baby boys to be circumsized – it was just a given, and carried out routinely without discussion.
The funny part is I’d never even heard of all this in my 37 years upon this Earth until I came here to fluther.
@MagsRags – your lecture to me is unnecessary, I won’t be having any babies in the near future!
I do feel however, it is to each their own. Why do people feel everyone should see it their way. If you are opposed to it, great, let your boys go.
@ABoyNamedBoobs03
I don’t know of any useless qualities, and evolution has created the person you are today.
@filmfann
Medical science has extended the human lifespan beyond the usefulness of tghe wisdom teeth. Evolution will catch up, given enough time.
@avvooooooo
It had nothing to do with clothing and a lot to do with sex.
It is still an abomination and should never be allowed.
@DrBill An abomination? Flat out unacceptable? Are you gonna start burning down synagogs?
@filmfann
No, I don’t do that, I just will not support it in any fashion. They can be wrong if they want to, but I choose not to explain to God why I thought I could improve on his design.
@rooeytoo, sorry if it sounded like a lecture, wasn’t meant that way. You mentioned nurse friends, and since I am a nurse too, I wanted to share my experience. In answering questions from pregnant couples about pros and cons of circumcision, the question about cleanliness/prevention of infections comes up frequently, so it’s a discussion I’ve had before.
And believe it or not, I do believe parents should take the route that feels right to them. I just hope it will be an informed decision. If a couple has made a decision to have their baby boy circumsized, I don’t express my personal opinion or try to talk them out of it. As you said, to each his own.
Response moderated
Although I think the above should be modded (it is spam), the idea of serious infection from general uncleanliness can also be attributed to natural selection. If you cannot keep yourself clean, then perhaps you should not reproduce.
It really took me about 15 minutes to write that lol. So I am kind of offended that you think it is spam. Cleanliness is the most typical doctor recommendation given for circumcision, and yes ..people should keep themselves as well as their children clean. In our society many parents choose to have their children circumcisedso they do not appear out of place in gym class, but it is becoming more and more common for parents to decide against circumcision. My one year old is not circumcised. When he is old enough to understand the procedure and make his own decisions..then he can tell me whether or not he would like it done.
My father wanted me to be circumcised shortly after my birth, but the doctor refused to do it. I am eternally grateful to said doctor.
Having your penis circumcised is like having an eyelid removed (i.e. it evolved for protection).
@Health_Remedies
Directing people to your web site to sell them something is spam.
If you were truly trying to help (and not self-promote) you would have left off the sales pitch
@Health_Remedies, in my medical community, newborn circumcision is done under local anesthesia, and I think that’s a pretty widespread approach. Of course, local wears off after about an hour, and research has shown that baby boys who have been circumsized are more irritable for the next week or two than other babies.
@Health_Remedies
I just want to know: what are the rates of “very serious infection” in countries like Denmark, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Finland, Russia, and all those other European countries where routine infant male circumcision isn’t something they do?
Like it or not, this is a uniquely American thing.
So I’ve realized a few things. One, the foreskin is not equivalent to the clitoris, that would be the head of the penis, right? It should be someone’s choice, wouldn’t you like to be given choices about whether or not something is going to be removed from your body. Also, do you think Hitler was circumcised?
@bumwithablackberry
You are right, It is not equivalent to a clitoris, but essential for having sex the way it was intended. The procedure will forever change the way him and his partner(s) enguage for the rest of his life. With that much on the line, he should choose for himself.
Just because something has been done that way for years, does not mean it is not incredibly stupid
Hitler was not circumcised.
A brisk is more than JUST a circumcision. As a religious practice, covenant, or ritual i don’t see a big problem with it. In that case it is NOT considered a “correction” of God’s creation, but rather a covenant with God.
As far as doing it on your doctor’s recommendation for supposed “cleanliness”... Well here is some information that we all should consider.
Male circumcision was not a widespread practice in mainstream American culture until the 1880’s when Dr. John Harvey Kellogg (yes, that is the Cornflakes guy!) who was fervently anti-masturbation, saying it was sinful and unhealthy, claimed it could KILL you. He believed that for young boys, a CURE to masturbation was circumcision.
Further, for young girls who masturbated he recommended that they have their clitoris burned out with acid!
HOLY SHIT WTF!!!!????
You think I’m making this shit up? Click Here!
As if that wasn’t bad enough… a doctor can make an extra $34,500 per year ON TOP of his salary if he or she performs circumcisions!!!
I find that a LITTLE EXORBITANT! It just goes to show that we cannot really take the biased opinion of doctors seriously when they tell us “it is Better to circumcise.”
To give credit where credit is due, I have gotten my information from a Brilliant psychoanalyst, and author of The Guide To Getting It On, Paul Joannides.
Does any one know what it costs for a circumcision?
@kalafatic How much does a circumcision cost?
Well, not an arm and a leg, but…
or
No skin off my back.
@kalafatic We will be paying out of pocket, if our next is a son. It is approximately $300. Not really an expensive medical procedure, but for what it is..you’d think it’d be cheaper. I can ask my OB today though what they’ll charge us.
Circumcision has nothing to do with God. It’s a cultural tradition associated with certain religions and countries.
Nothing needs to be corrected. Hygiene is important.
Well I’ve decided to grow mine back, at least partially, out of interest, and as a statement to all that gaze upon my Jimmy, that (music plays) one day Queen Victoria will crawl out of her underground lair and decide to stop keeping herself alive by a tonic made by the foreskin’s of our young men.
There is a device called a P.U.D. and you can grow it back. Not as good as the original, but, could be a good icebreaker at parties.
@bumwithablackberry hahahaha omg wow! i just assumed you were kidding with the “grow it back” comment… wellllll good luck!
It should definately be a personal choice.
I can see the hygeine argument, sort of, maybe some guys cant wash it or something?
I can see the medical side, sometimes the foreskin will not pull back without pain.
But to be honest, if it aint broke…...................
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