To the religious Christians who are against the proposed healthcare reform, how do you reconcile this...

you are assuming that so-called “religious” Christians do anything or know anything about what the Bible actually says. in doing so, you’d be wrong.

In the New American Conservative Bible all references to the meek inheriting the Earth and helping the impoverished have been omitted.

To be fair, they probably think that reform wouldn’t actually help people.

Matthew 25 is the verse I always take into the polling both with me. I can’t recall ever voting republican though.

@eponymoushipster That’s probably the biggest blanket statement I’ve ever seen you make… also very interesting that you assume you know what all Christians do and feel.

@drdoombot I really hope there isn’t anyone out there, Christian or not, who doesn’t want healthcare reform just because they don’t want to pitch in a little to help people in need! I think the majority of opposition to the healthcare reform comes from citizens either not liking specific things within the proposed plan, or not trusting that our government will do what they say they’ll do with the program. Hopefully everyone agrees we need healthcare reform, they just do not all agree on the details of the program.

Well, to clarify my question a bit:

If there are religious Christians who know of the above passage but are against the proposed healthcare reform because:
a. They think it is Socialism or against Capitalism
b. They believe it is against the Constitution
c. They believe healthcare is the responsibility of the individual, not the state
d. Any other reason similar to the above

How do they reconcile the apparent contradiction between their religious belief and a government program which has the aim of making every American citizen healthy. Isn’t it our responsibility to help out our fellow man?

look at what most do and say, and than look at the Bible. not a lot of harmony there.

@eponymoushipster The Bible does not call Christians to perfectly abide by the rules there, so that is not an accurate way of determining if Christians understand the Bible

@BBSDTfamily GA

@BBSDTfamily – you mean you can pick and choose what rules you like? Wow that makes it pretty easy to be a good christian, you just say hey I don’t like the no murder bit so I’ll just ignore that???

@rooeytoo You are misunderstanding what I said. No you can’t pick and choose, that does not even make logical sense. I do not mean you are not supposed to follow all of the rules. I mean that nobody is expected to be perfect and always be able to always make every right decision… that’s why there is a large part of the Bible that talks about forgiveness.

I don’t know why I even am explaining this anyway… I have a feeling you know good and well that your comment made no sense and was incorrect. Either you enjoy making illogical comments, or you have the same common misconception about Christianity that many non-Christians have.

I was quoting you, “The Bible does not call Christians to perfectly abide by the rules there” if it is illogical, you said it.

@rooeytoo If you think you are quoting me, then you are grossly misunderstanding what that sentence means. I did not say “abide by all of the rules”, I said “perfectly abide by the rules”. Very big difference.

I copied and pasted so I must be quoting you.

So it’s okay to just abide by the rules a little bit, you don’t have to perfectly abide or abide completely?

No, the first response you gave didn’t copy and paste a single thing I said.

The point is that as a Christian you are supposed to do your best to abide by the rules of the Bible. At the same time, God knows humans can not perfectly make every correct decision in every situation… we’re human and therefore imperfect. So, there is a very large part of the Bible that talks about forgiveness (from God). Being a Christian doesn’t mean you live a perfect life, it means you try to live your life the best way you can in accordance to God’s rules. Many times, as is the case in this discussion, people make the statement that since Christians do things that are wrong sometimes, they must either not be Christians or misunderstand the Bible. That argument makes no sense because the criteria for being a Christian is not perfection.

That’s what I said you just have to abide a little bit and you’ll be okay because you are a mere human and can’t be expected to behave at all times.

I think humans know right from wrong and should behave accordingly at all times. Your religion gives you an out for not doing right, and that doesn’t seem right to me.

I believe I must act according to my own moral code because I do for sure know right from wrong, I don’t need anyone or any religion to tell me. Or some old book full of unbelievable fairy tales like virgin births etc. But if it makes you feel better, it is none of my business.

@drdoombot This is a good question, I’m glad that you asked.

First, you do well to point out a passage that is often used by Christian social service agencies as a biblical basis for the work that they do. It is not uncommon to hear Christians say that when they serve people who are poor, they consider themselves to be serving Jesus. Some of the first hospitals, and many hospitals to this day, were built and run by Christians with the intention of being able to offer medical care, not just to the community in general, but especially to those who would otherwise be unable to afford it.

I sincerely hope, along with @BBSDTfamily that the Christians who are speaking out against the Obama administration’s approach to healthcare reform are not doing so because they don’t want to “chip in” and help the poor. Hopefully, they believe that there are better ways for the same goal to be accomplished.

@BBSDTfamily;
sorry if I abandoned you here.
You guys got a bit off topic when it changed from healthcare reform but I feel a need to defend my faith a bit here.
Christianity recognizes that people will never be able to live up to the high standards required in the Bible. Our rightiousness will never be enough. That’s what Jesus was all about. He gave us HIS rightiousness.
Does that mean we can do whatever we want?
It means that doing good, being good is a response to the gift God gives us, not that god gives us life in response to us being good.
I’m not trying to evangalize here, I’m just trying to set the record straight.
Back to healthcare, I think the Christians who are so against it are so distrustful of democrats because they have spent the last 30 years believing that God was republican. It started with Regan, and has snowballed from there. It makes me sad because I feel like some of my best friends are like lemmings, blindly following their party to their own doom.

God recognized that nobody would be able to live by the rules perfectly, which is why he sent Jesus as a sacrifice of atonement.

However, saying “He doesn’t expect us to always be able to follow the rules perfectly” is a pretty @#$%ing lame excuse for so blatantly ignoring Matthew 25.

Remember, “what you do to the least of them, you do to Me.” Would these Christians deny healthcare to Christ, if he was poor? It certainly appears so.

@BBSDTfamily “In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely.” – 1 Peter 2:21

i don’t think most “Christians” follow his model closely. They play fast and loose with verses that work for them, and ignore the stuff they don’t like.

Why do “Christians” get involved in politics, when Jesus clearly avoided being made king and participating in political uprisings? (John 17:14; James 4:4)

Why do they fight in wars, killing people of their own faith, or of another religion, when Jesus said to “love your enemies” (Matthew 5:44) and ‘turn the other cheek” (Matthew 5:39)? Why do they do that, when he said that the mark of his true followers would be “having love among one another” (John 13:35)?

Why is there question regarding who can be a “teacher” (or minister or vicar or whatever you call them), when the requirements for such are clearly outlined in the Bible (1 Timothy 3:1–7)?

Why do “Christians” call men “father”, “holiness”, etc when Jesus said not to (Matthew 23:9)?

Why do “Christians” use a cross, venerating a murder weapon, when the Bible clearly states that idolatry is wrong? (1 Corinthians 10:14) an idol is an image or symbol that is the object of intense devotion

seems some “Christians” are a little out of step.

I am a Christian, however I am neither for nor against this particular health care reform bill. Mainly, because I don’t truly know enough about it to have a good opinion either way. So regarding your question how would I reconcile this…...First off, I don’t think our government runs much of anything efficiently (I can say this because when it comes down to competition between free market and the government free market tends to win. Take a look at FedEx, UPS, and USPS, or the cities/states who have been privatizing their city roads.) The Bible also tells us to be good stewards of our money, and giving my taxes to the government so they can stand 2 people while one guy digs, or spend $1KK to fund ATV trail renovations is not efficient nor a good use of money. Secondly, these opposers don’t believe this bill will work. They don’t oppose it for the fact that more people would be able to get health insurance but because they think it will fail (IMO).

I think what we need to do is to run health insurance more like a non-profit org. We take the profit out of the insurance company we have something closer to a health care savings account. If we take government out of the equation we get away from several things. We get away from this dumbass divisiveness between our two major parties where everything has become ignorant-ridden if only for the sake of argument. We potentially reduce the amount of leveraging done by lobbyists and special interest groups. We eliminate the possibility for the government to allow a program to run itself into debt and we disallow the government to utilize the money we put into our plans for other things.

@critter1982, you have to acknowledge that some just want to see Obama fail. Also, there is a lot of lobbiest money going into the propaganda machine.
We used to do education well, until about the last 30 years when this “government is bad” trend started happening.
I am an eBay seller and I choose the postal service. It is easy to get to and they have a pretty good tracking system.
Most elderly folks are thankful for their Medicare.
Our government built an amazing interstate highway system when they weren’t afraid to step out and do something. Where would we be now if they would have decided tha it was to ambitious?
Government is capable of doing good, and making sure healthcare is a basic human right, and not a priveledge for the lucky or wealthy or only the poorest who are on welfare or in prison is a bold but escential role government should assume.

A much shorter way to express all these obligations is in the form of the second Great Commandment: ”... and you shall love your neigbor as much as you love yourself.” In other words, the other person’s well-being is to be treated as being as important to you as your own is. This obligation is very difficult to fulfill with regard to even just a very few other people; but truly doing What Jesus Would Do requires it in regard to every other child of God. Jesus’s radical extension of neighborship to people outside of the tribe is one of the great moral teachings.

So, to answer your question: in my view, healthcare of everyone else, to a Christian, is just as important as that person’s own healthcare, so any choice other than universal applicability of some level of healthcare is unChristian..

@LexWordsmith: Based on your definition, anything short of universal healthcare (the best healthcare because that is what I would want for myself) for every nation would be unChristian.

@critter1982 ; You would be right. I am going in October on a Christian Medical mission to Guatemala in October. I do have a twinge of guilt though, because THIS country has people just as desperate as the people in those jungles.

@Judi: What I am saying is that unless Christians begin to advocate “to their government” healthcare to the whole world they are unChristian based on Lex’s definition…..

I disagree, objecting to a healthcare bill that they don’t feel will work in America is different than objecting to healthcare for all. Christians, IMHO, don’t object to the idea but rather object to the process. Additionally, I think there are lots of avenues Christians can take to apply the second commandment to their lives, including going to Guatemala (which I need to say is flipping cool).

Every nation is unchristian. Jesus wouldn’t do most of things perpetrated by nations. And aren’t we all the same? Nationality means nothing.

@tinyfaery: I absolutely agree.

@Judi: Regarding some of your comments above.

I agree, some people do just want to see Obama fail. That goes back to the divisivness of our news sources, because no matter who is in the oval office there will be people on both sides that simply want the opposition to fail.

The USPS is in a financial crisis. There are several reasons all including and not limited to limited price increases with significant rising costs (hence your lower costs), top heavy management, minimal accountability, and declines in volume. UPS and FedEx have innovated and are remaining profitable.

I’m not saying that all government is bad, generally speaking I whole heartedly think that no matter who is in the presidency, they want to make the US a better nation. I understand the necessity of government and their potential to do good. What I am saying is that even though the ideology is inherently good it many times is implemented poorly. The cash for clunkers was a great idea, unfortunately it was implemented poorly, where GM and Chrysler the companies it was designed to aid saw minimal increases in sales. The dealerships were and are still having issues receiving their reimbursement. The ideology was great but it was followed up with poor implementation. Additionally, there is absolutely zero fiscal responsibility within the government and the last 2 administrations 100% prove my point.

I know most elderly are happy with their medicare but again that’s in a financial crisis, and the plan to take some (some = a lot) money away from medicare for this universal health care doesn’t help the scenario. The government should “somehow” make health care more widely available, I agree, but they also need to fix some of these programs that are failing.

@critter1982 : you have caught my meaning exactly. Faithful Christianity means taking care of your neighbor exactly as well as you take care of yourself.

I would be interested in a response by a christian to @eponymoushipster‘s most recent answer on this thread.

It is fortifying my impression that discussing the bible is best done with none-believers, since the religious person will most often first deny, then say the bible should be interpreted in another way and then fall back to silence.

@whitenoise: I am a Christian, and I think that @eponymoushipster points out some obvious hypocrisy. I’m not going to defend it, because I think it’s largely indefensible.

I will point out, however, that there’s a lot of stuff in the New Testament that’s best viewed as information on how the early Christians conducted themselves and not as inviolable rules for all time, and that it’s essential to read the Bible in its historical context and understand the principles underlying each example or story.

I should point out that i am a Christian. But I avoid any of the things i mentioned earlier.

as for @cwilbur ‘s comment regarding historical context – i don’t find that to be true. the principles which are found in the Bible are applicable at any time. That’s why principles are of far more value than rules.

@eponymoushipster I agree with you that there are many people calling themselves Christians who do not take time to understand the Bible or care to try to follow it. I also know there are many that do. I only was trying to say not to lump all Christians together into one category as I felt your first statement did.

There are a wide variety of people who call themselves Christians, and a lot of times non-Christians focus on the ones who aren’t making as much effort or they misinterpret what Christianity is about, and therefore claim that Christianity cannot be anything more than hogwash because of this. That’s why I’m quick to point out that they aren’t all the same, and point out when people make the assumption that when Christians do something wrong it means they are not a Christian is completely incorrect. Your statements are very true some of the time though. People are entitled to their own opinions, but they should at least make those assumptions having a little background knowledge. Most non-Christians I have met do not really understand Christianity at all, but yet feel they are in a position to argue with it. It has always baffled and amused me when people go off on a rant about something they really don’t know much about :)

The beauty of Christianity (to me) is that Jesus accepts you just as you are.
When the pastor of the church where my dad was the janitor asked my dad why he didn’t go to Church my dad said “Church is foll of a bunch of hypocrites!
The pastor replied, “That’s alright Sam, there’s room for one more. ”

@BBSDTfamily as i stated just before your post, i am a Christian. However, i don’t think worship is a buffet, and you can pick and choose what you do or believe. I also don’t think acknowledging you ignore things is a valid excuse.

What i stated aren’t assumptions – you can see them everyday in people’s actions, speech and behavior.

Does your church act according to the Scriptures I cited above, or does it “excuse” itself, or simply ignore what the Bible says? You didn’t really answer any of those questions.

@Judi To side with your father, hypocrites are the reason I left the last church I attended. Seeing people act holier than thou at choir practice, then going out to eat after and listening to them talk about how they would like to date you with their wife sitting across the table is unbearable to me… And that was three years ago.

The point is, Christianity is a place for messed up broken people. I get embarrased when people call themselves Christian and act like idiots, but I still have to trust that they are just in a different place in their spiritual growth.
People who use the Church for a social club and who are not interested in growing make me mad too, but I don’t get mad at God for THEIR behavior.

My dad eventually joined the church and we were baptized together.

@eponymoushipster Who is picking and choosing what they do or believe? Who is acknowledging they ignore things? I don’t see where you get that about me out of my previous comments?? I take everything in the Bible as truth, so I hope those comments weren’t directed at me.

I was not directing my comments towards you… just saying that I agree with you that some people do act that way, and stating examples of what I’ve seen myself.

I never understood why the religious right in the US is against health insurance for everyone. Offering health insurance to people who can’t afford one means applying the Christian principle of solidarity. How can more than 50 million people in the richest country of the world not have health insurance? How can a pregnant woman with an unborn baby not get prenatal care?

I’m a Christian. I’m not against health insurance for everyone. I just don’t trust the government to do it. I KNOW the people can do it better. People often forget that corporations are run by americans too. Start your own health insurance company. All the government will do is waste money and end up destroying the best health care system in the world.

So if there were no public option, but insurance were required to provide affordable (sliding scale maybe, depending on income?) health insurance to anyone, regardless of their medical history, you would encourage your legislators to vote for it?

@pikipupiba

“The people” are the ones doing it right now, and they’re doing a horrible job. The American health care system is by no means the best in the world. It isn’t even close.

@Ivan So what makes the PEOPLE of the government able to do a better job?

@pikipupiba

They would be required by law to do a good job. The public only does a good job when they have monetary incentive to do so. The insurance companies have found ways to make money without doing a good job, so they don’t.

@Judi I think the government could provide subsidies to the lower income families for health insurance. That way we can have both the PROFITABLE INFRASTRUCTURE of the free market and health care for all.

@Ivan You couldn’t get the government to do a good job by requiring it any more than you could get me to ace my calculus test by ‘requiring’ it. Understand?

It’s the same mentality as ‘If we put enough money into researching something, we WILL get results’. Sometimes it just takes the right person at the right time and dumping money into it (* clear throat * renewable energy!) will only waste resources.

@pikipupiba – In Germany the standard health insurance system is handled by the government. Free enterprises are invited to compete and they do and try to offer better services. But no one is without health insurance. Even the unemployed get standard health insurance coverage. Every pregnant woman gets prenatal care. I fail to understand how this so-called pro-life conservative movement in the US doesn’t care about the dangers to unborn life related to the lack of health insurance for everyone. Truly puzzling to say the least!

In the United States, infant mortality is 630 per 100,000 live births or 6.3 per 1000 live births. In Germany it’s 4.3 and in Iceland it’s 2.9 – even Cuba gets a better rate of 5.1 than the United States. Why are American conservatives so unperturbed about this? Cuba, for crying out loud!

I don’t understand the current debate in the US. Obama should introduce health insurance for everyone and not try to please everyone. He won the elections after all.

@mattbrowne: You’re generalization, ”I fail to understand how this so-called pro-life conservative movement in the US doesn’t care about the dangers to unborn life related to the lack of health insurance for everyone” is not necessarily true.

There are tons of free pro-life pregnancy centers all over America which happen to be completely financed by conservative Christians. Again, it’s not that conservatives don’t want more widely available health care it’s the issue that our government implements programs extremely poorly and there are alternatives to the bill being passed around. You can’t base your “conservatives don’t care about unborn children” argument on the idea that conservatives oppose this particular bill. Conservatives are not arguing that health care needs to be reformed, they are arguing that this particular ideology is problematic.

I can understand the fundamentalist movement that is against abortion (although I don’t approve of some of their tactics.) I can see why they think the issue is important enough to them to fight for. It just seems to me that when The Republican party decided to take up their cause they drug them along on a whole lit of other crap and somehow now lower taxes, torturing suspects and any weapon control is non Christian. Christians should not be a one issue voting block. There is plenty of “non Christian” activity going on on both sides of the aisle.

@pikipupiba : People seem to think that Medicare is a reasonably well-managed program and that a lot of HMOs make their money by dragging out the paying of legitimate claims as long as possible, so why those same people somehow seem to think that the FedGov can’t do at least as good job of offering an option for universal healthcare as private firms can mystifies me.

@critter1982 – During the 8 Bush years the conservatives failed to implement a health insurance program. They were busy doing other things including the bullying of allied countries. Pregnant women should not depend on the activities of voluntary groups.

I think the real reason why many conservatives are wary about general health insurance is that it might smell like socialism. Which is complete nonsense.

It’s my understanding that in Christian communities individual responsibility is the big thing, and anything that seems the least bit “socialist” is considered unChristian (feel free to correct me on this). So, universal heatlthcare, or taxing the rich higher to support the lower classes, etc. is all moving away from God I guess?

Christianity is about acknoledging that you can’t do it for yourself and that you need Christ.

@JLeslie: there are a lot of ways of living in a Christian community, and there’s a lot to be said for personal responsibility; but the general attitude of “I got mine, you can f$#k off” is pretty much impossible to reconcile with Christ’s statements: “What you do to the least of them, you do to Me”; “Love your neighbor as yourself”; and “I give you a new commandment: Love one another as I have loved you.”

Now, there are those who call themselves Christian, who make a great noise in politics, but (as @eponymoushipster points out) while they make a great deal of fuss and bother about being true Christians, their actual behavior shows that they aren’t even making a token effort.

You can make the case that leaving things to governments is a poor solution, but without proposing a better solution, that’s just so much noise.

@LexWordsmith Its bankrupt!

jesus was a socialist! :-D

(well maybe more like a social democrat!).

people who are against the reform seem to be saying that they are worried about how this system will be paid for (that was never even a question when we started a war in iraq, and afganistan.. HA!)

what they don’t understand is that it would be paid for the same way any given insurance company would sustain itself, only with 0 profit. You pay your premium into the pool (which is a smaller premium than you’d pay into a current insurance company) and that pays for the administrative cost (which is smaller than a private insurance because they are not trying to make a profit off of you) and that also will cover people for their medical treatment. the way i understand it is it is basically self sustaining (if there is a large enough pool). with a small portion of tax from the wealthiest people in america to pick up the slack (if there is any)

But to return to the point about christians… yes there are people out there who do not want to give any money or help to other people because they think everyone should “pull themselves up by their own bootstraps”... but that assumes everyone has boots to start out with. unfortunately, some families are barefoot. :-(

@pikipupiba : strange, then, how it’s still paying claims.

It’s not bankrupt it’s beginning to run into financial distress. Last year the trustees projected that Medicare’s hospitalization trust fund would probably fall into debt around 2019. In 2006 Medicare drew more than 50% of its financing from the governments general fund.

Actually, Jesus is a monarchist and he’s the King of kings.

@Judi i love that, i should use it more often. you said the same thing to me on some other thread.

@Judi, I’m not older, and it’s not perfect health care, but I’m grateful for Medicare. Without it I wouldn’t have any health care. (But then again I’m a liberal Christian!)