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Strauss's avatar

Musicians (or any one else): What to you think of digital tonalization?

Asked by Strauss (23812points) August 31st, 2009

Over the past few years I have noticed the use of a device in vocal recording. I’m not sure what it’s called, but this device can enhance a singer’s tonalization skills so the singer does not seem to sing out of tune. I’ve heard it used as an added effect (and it can be done well). I’ve also heard it used to compensate for a singer’s lack of singing skills. What do you think?

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33 Answers

teh_kvlt_liberal's avatar

You mean auto tune?
I find it annoying.
Anyone who bashes the auto tune gets free lurve from me..

cwilbur's avatar

I think it’s a crutch for poor musicians, and an interesting gadget for good musicians.

Jess's avatar

It’s so lame and ridiculous…......any song I hear with it I deem a novelty and I pretty much dismiss it as rubbish…......I’d rather hear an out of tune singer with a soul!

RareDenver's avatar

I think in some instances the end product can be more important than how you got there. We have many tools at our disposal now for music production and I fully embrace new technologies. Things can be over-produced though sometimes and any singer relying to heavily on these things is going to struggle with live performance situations.

I see nothing inherently wrong in these production techniques but I do think you can use them intelligently/creatively or just use them out of laziness.

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

Is it that effect I’ve heard in 95% of pop/hip hop songs as of lately? If it’s what I’m thinking of, it annoys the shit out of me. I can’t really describe what I’m talking about. But Akon is one name that comes to mind.

DominicX's avatar

As an added effect, I like the way auto-tune sounds. It’s true that it’s a fad right now and all the singers are using it, including ones that never used to use it before, but I like it in some things. I have no way of knowing if it’s actually being used to compensate for lack of singing skills, but if it is, that’s too bad for the person using it, but I don’t really give a shit. I like music that sounds good and some of the music that sounds good to me uses auto-tune.

It certainly does seem to give anyone the ability to sing, as evidenced by this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dqTrUpmwPg

Grisaille's avatar

Auto Tune?

I’m waiting for something clever to come along. Right now it’s too commonly associated with the lower-quality end of pop/hip hop.

Kanye was doing some interesting things with it, then that ended.

We’ll see.

Also to note: bands like Daft Punk have been using Auto Tune-esque synths to good effect for years. Can’t knock it.

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@Grisaille Yeah but Daft Punk came on the scene that way to begin with. They knew what they wanted to do and how they wanted to do it. Everyone else is just jumping on a bandwagon.

Grisaille's avatar

That isn’t a fair argument. Plenty of musicians have (successfully) changed their style or particular attack on music. It is less so who started the technique and more so what artists can do with it. Electronica and other such genre bands may have started it, but the true purpose of creation – the success story – is when the art moves so far away from the creator to where it is indistinguishable from it’s original conception.

aprilsimnel's avatar

I do not like most pop music that uses it. Why I’ve given Basement Jaxx a pass, I don’t know.

NaturalMineralWater's avatar

It’s terrible. If I detect even the slightest use of this “technology” in a song it instantly makes my blood boil and I’m quite sure that distant planets explode. Music, for me, should be done by the artist, not by a rendition of that artist. Some would argue that it’s just the new thing.. the new craze.. it’s still music and expression and bla bla bla… go slap yourself.. it’s not (for me).

hookecho's avatar

its a small step towards a future where all bands will be created by managers and companies. They will recruit members based on looks, attention whorishness, or a marketable look, because playing an instrument, having musical talent, and creativity will have been made obsolete by gadgets like auto tune.

wundayatta's avatar

We’re talking about recordings here. There are all kinds of tricks musicians and producers have used over the decades to make a more perfect recording. Autotune is just another tool. I mean, you could be singing a part over and over again until you get it right and then dubbing it in where you messed up the first time.

I think recordings have had their day. No one can make money on recordings any more. The big money is in live performance. Real performance, not lip syncing.

Perfection is nice and all, but it lacks character and humanity. Many producers and musicians grew up thinking the point of all the practice is to make your music as perfect as possible. I think they are missing the point.

My view about music is this: music is meant to be live, not recorded. Music is meant to exist once, and never again. You have to be there to hear it. You can’t just put a song on your iPod. You have to have live musicians playing real music. We need to regain the times of yore, when if you wanted music, you had to play it yourself. Everyone had a piano or guitar or harmonica around. Or even just a washboard.

Music can be made with almost anything. Music is about relationships. Music is about people.

Recordings took that away from us. It lead to the dehumanization of music. Autotune is just another facet of that effort. I don’t see why it should cause anyone any fuss. It’s no different from any other recording technique. It’s fine, if you’re into that. Obviously, I’m not.

My daughter is playing piano downstairs even as I write this. We make our own music in my family. If you’ve never experienced it, you have no idea how fulfilling it is. It puts the world right.

DominicX's avatar

@daloon

Well, that’s ridiculous.

Recordings allow you to hear music that you might not have any other opportunity to hear. People have been moved by the music that other people have created and I am not interested in taking that away from people. People don’t create music just so they can hear it once and be done with it. A lot of people create music so they can share it with the world and recordings allow them to do that. The whole point of writing down music was so it could be played by other people and not be forgotten and people have been doing that for hundreds of years.

jamzzy's avatar

Blame it on the goose but dont blame it on the auto-tune

hey if it sounds good to me ill listen to it.

DominicX's avatar

@jamzzy

That’s how I feel. I like “Blame It” and the auto-tune sound and this is coming from someone whose favorite genre of music is classical.

wundayatta's avatar

@DominicX Writing down music is different. That still has to be played by another musician. It’s not static, like a recording.

Anyway, I know I’m talking about a different aesthetic and a different spirit with respect to music. I know that there’s maybe one or two other people in this country who think like I do. However, I don’t think my notions are ridiculous. In times before recordings, if you wanted to hear someone special, you had to find a way to attend a concert. I think there’s a lot of value in having to make music or be in its presence, live, in order to hear it.

DominicX's avatar

@daloon

I didn’t say there wasn’t value in that; this is coming from someone who plays the piano and creates their own music, owns hundreds of classical music CDs and mp3s of other genres, and enjoys live concerts. But attending classical concerts is expensive and it requires a lot of people just to play one piece. Shostakovich’s 4th symphony requires 171 musicians and for that reason, it isn’t often performed live so I’m grateful to have a recording of it. I know there is great value in live performances and in playing your own music or composing your own music, but recorded music is important to me as well. I just don’t like the idea of downplaying the calming, soothing, and moving powers that recorded music has for people. It’s still the same music whether it’s coming from a speaker, from you, or from other people right next to you.

To me, music just has so many more facets: a lot of music I listen brings back certain memories and feelings and I like being able to experience that regularly. I have songs that make me think of my boyfriend and they probably always will even when we are no longer together. There is music that makes me think of my grandmother who died this year and I love having those memories in the music I listen to. Not to mention some groups sound better than others (Cambridge Singers in the UK are best for Rutter and Britten and I can’t just go to England and hear them every time I want to experience that music).

Just sharing my thoughts. Not trying to convince anyone of anything. And yes, “ridiculous” was probably too strong of a reaction.

perplexism's avatar

@hookecho – Mainstream music is already there, for the most part.

wundayatta's avatar

@DominicX I don’t mind listening to recordings, but since I don’t keep up with it, I have no idea who people are and what they do, and who I should listen to. Sometimes the guys I play with do these recordings of our jams, and that’s nice to have around. I’ll listen to it sometimes in the car, but it’s not something anyone else would want to listen to. At least, my family isn’t too keen on it.

It’s just so much easier for me to make my own music than to find music to listen to. That probably sounds weird, but that is what has happened to me in the last few decades. In a way, I like it. It’s empowering. One of the things I don’t like is the cult of fame. There are a lot of musicians out there who are much more famous and rich than I am, and they wouldn’t be caught dead jamming with me.

But my reaction to music is that it makes me want to play, too. I want to participate, not just listen. So I like situations where that is possible, and it isn’t possible with recordings.

For whatever reason, I have this problem with placing other people either higher or lower than me. I just want to play, and you can’t play if people feel like they don’t want to play with you. I am using play as a metaphor here; I’m not just talking about music.

If there’s a panel discussion, I want to be talking with the panelists. If it’s a classroom situation, I want to have more engagement with the professor. This is why I choose situations where everyone is equal. Conversational salons, drum circles, support groups, etc., etc. I prefer to hang out with people who are committed to equality and participative structures.

Maybe it’s hubris, but I think that other people are probably like me, and they want to play, too. I know a lot of people think they aren’t good enough to play with the talented and famous people, and so they shut themselves off from even trying. I hate this “not good enough” mentality. Maybe because I’ve suffered from it all my life.

I may not be good enough to have my music recorded. I may not be good enough to have my words published. I may not be good enough to do a lot of things. But I don’t have to worry about that. I can post any kind of drivel I want on fluther. People can read it or not, however they feel. Sure, I feel a great pleasure when I see someone has addressed a comment to me. But that’s what I want—a real conversation with a real person. Especially if it’s an interesting person.

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@daloon I understand where you’re coming from, and I’ve actually pondered a world much like the one you speak of. A world where music is rare and forbidden, where recordings are outlawed and if you wanted to hear something, you’d have to just be in the right place at the right time. CDs, TV, and internet probably give us far too much access to music. Especially with the arrival of programs like Limewire and iTunes. I can say I’ve heard just about all there is to hear. Every genre. Every subgenre. I’ve downloaded and sampled more music than you could shake a ten foot pole at, and some people consider “eclectic taste” a good thing. And I guess it is. But there’s a downside. And the downside is, after you listen to so much so often, you become harder and harder to impress. Music, as a whole, becomes very hard to enjoy, because you want something new. You always want something new. And now I can’t really find that anymore. If I want new music, I have to make it myself. And I intend to. But I digress..

The other side of my original point is that although live shows are in a league of their own, there are things that can be done recorded that simply cannot be done live. You can take people anywhere you want them to go. There are no limits. It’s a sad day for music if what you say is true and recordings are going down in worth, because inside those discs, between the circuitry of all this technology we have at our fingertips, there is an endless sea of stories waiting to be told. Modern rock is SKIPPING rocks across the surface. Pop music is sitting in middle with an innertube. But it IS possible to explore the ocean floor. And I can’t think of enough reasons why not to.

DominicX's avatar

@Piper_Brianmind

But can you really say you’ve heard “all there is to hear”? There is so much music I haven’t heard. I make a new mix CD every month or two and each one contains new songs that I hear during that month or 2. I remember after making my 17th or so, I was like, “man, it’s going to be hard to find new music that I like”. Well, I’m on the 28th now. Not to mention that there are over 400 years of classical music out there, a genre that I love more than any other genre, and I am constantly finding new music that interests me.

I don’t think there is a such thing as “too much music”. Music is constantly being made and there is plenty of music you haven’t heard. Not to mention the fact that I always go back and listen to music that I haven’t heard in a while and for me, it’s like listening to something new.

@daloon

And I think that’s the main difference. I know I don’t have the ability to compose music in the way the great classical composers composed or play music the way the great musicians played. But that doesn’t keep from enjoying what other people have created. In terms of writing fiction, I may never become anything famous or published. But I still write. That’s not stopping me.

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@DominicX Sure, I find new songs. There’s always new songs. But my problem is whether or not these new songs breathe new life into the industry, whether they have tapped a new plateau of innovation and created a soundscape unlike any other. That, I do not come across much anymore.

wundayatta's avatar

I guess what I’m saying is that recorded music is a different thing. I guess this is obvious. But it’s the character of the difference that could be described a bit more fully. The points that you make, @Piper_Brianmind and @DominicX, are well-taken.

I’m not arguing that there is no worth to recorded music. Certainly it provides access to compositions that one could not have access to in any other way. In addition, the process of recording and playing recorded music allows for things that can’t be done with acoustic instruments or in acoustic spaces, or with non-electronic instruments of any kind.

Electronic instruments have their own character, and sound musicians can deconstruct sound into various component parts and then rebuild it in ways that can not occur naturally. At least, not naturally and still be perceivable by the senses humans are born with. (Radio waves occur naturally, but without special equipment, humans can’t detect them).

As to ability—that’s one place where I would like to critique the culture of music as we know it. However my critique extends to other aspects of our culture besides music. The whole idea that ”I don’t have the ability to compose music in the way the great classical composers composed or play music the way the great musicians played” is what disturbs me.

In the world I want to live in, people would not hierarchisize abilities, at least in the arts. We would say there are differences, but not that one is better than another; at least not to the degree that we do now. The arts are a mode of expression. With speech, at least in most nations, we expect freedom to say what we want. We expect to be able to express any idea we want without being thrown in prison for it.

In the arts, we throw ourselves into prison before we ever even start. This is because most of think we are not good enough to even participate in the conversation. I would argue that if you can’t participate in the conversation, then you can’t understand what is being said.

So what my argument is about, essentially, is that we should find ways to empower people to participate in the conversation. There are several things blocking people: the hierarchy of expertise, the belief that one must have a basic level of expertise to even participate; the exposure of so many people to “high” level art; and the concomitant demise of art as an aspect of daily communal expression.

Hierarchy of expertise is a problem everywhere. In the past, when recordings were unavailable, nearly everyone could participate, and did participate in the conversation. If you had a community gathering, everyone participated in the music or the dance, many simply by clacking sticks together. But there was no judgment, or little judgment about the capability of various members of the community. Everyone could dance. It didn’t matter what you looked like. And, no doubt, there were probably very few people who couldn’t keep rhythm. Why? Because of their participation in the making of the music. The only way to learn and gain capability is to practice. There is no concept of “talent” because everyone has the same training, and at least the same basic level of talent. The concept of zero talent is just not possible, as it is today.

However, hierarchy in politics lead to a hierarchy in the arts. The best art became that which was patronized by the humans with the highest status. In fact, art became a way to gain status in court—in France, courtiers had to know how to dance, and the better they danced, the more status they had. This practice lead to the form we now know as ballet.

In this way, albeit over centuries, art was taken away from ordinary people and made into the province of high status people. Indeed, the only democracy in art and the idea of the purpose of art was that it was (and is) one of the best ways of raising oneself from the peasantry into the aristocracy. The arts have thus moved from the province of all of us to the province of the few, the elite, and in the process, excluded most of us from the conversation. Not only does this hurt people in their own lives—people believing they have no talent—but it deprives society of much, perhaps of importance, that might be “said.”

Recordings probably have a mixed record here, both in imposing the hierarchy, but, due to the reduction in cost of the technology, it is proliferating more rapidly, leading to a slow democratization of ability to participate in the conversation. Yet, this democratization occurs only amongst the technologically literate, and other people also have plenty to say.

It is this attitude that art belongs to an elite that I would like to destroy. I think the proliferation of recorded music is one of the causes of this attitude. We have too much exposure to the experts. This cuts off people, because they censor themselves, believing there is no way they can compete with the experts. The conversation changes from something that everyone can participate in, to a competition devoted to identifying those who can express themselves the best.

However, in art, there is no absolute standard of expertise or what speaks most clearly. To some extent, language is arbitrary, and what we like has a lot to do with what we are exposed to. However, it is true that some art is more in tune with our physical structure than others.

Certainly, in music, it seems likely that there are tonalities that humans are better attuned to. We respond to scales with intervals that we can detect and where the notes have certain specific relationships in terms of frequency. Major chords make us feel one way; minor chords another. These things work beyond consciousness—at a physical level. Resolution of a musical phrase leads to a feeling of completeness in our bodies.

Never-the-less, there is much room for variance in expression, and to the extent that what we appreciate as a society is arbitrary, judgmentalism kills a lot of what might be said. It takes a special person who doesn’t care what others think to continue to remain true to their “voice” in the face of much negative criticism.

From birth, we most of us have an instinct for music and art. Until our parents or teachers tell us to stop, we play with rhythm and movement and color. Kids scribble on walls. They bang pots. They dance riotously. Until people tell them to stop. Part of the reason they want their kids to stop is because they find the expression to be discordant. Part of it is because they don’t believe their kids have any talent.

I want us to stop using expertise and talent (or lack thereof) as an excuse to not participate in the conversation. This requires an attitude of inclusiveness. Perhaps even a constitutional amendment about freedom of artistic speech. Court cases already have supported that, but what I mean is a special amendment (a metaphorical amendment) that would serve to encourage people to participate in the conversation as part of their civic duty, so to speak.

From participation, skill will arise. More ideas will appear. Individuals benefit. Society benefits. People are happier. Less depression. More diversity of expression, and more inclusiveness. To the extent that recorded music works against these things, it makes me unhappy. I don’t want my voice to be stomped on. I think I have a lot to say, and I’m willing to listen to others if they are willing to listen to me.

Piper_Brianmind's avatar

@daloon You are officially amazing. Had that post been more aggressive, I might think you were punk. This next thing isn’t what I mean but it fits with some things you’re suggesting; I was reading an article about it and According to Holmstrom, punk rock was “rock and roll by people who didn’t have very much skills as musicians but still felt the need to express themselves through music”. And that sounds alot like the world you describe. Where people fight the hierarchy and make music anyway even if the elites argue its value. It may or may not be ideal (we can’t really know) your way, but I really don’t think it’ll ever happen. I’ll do my part regardless, but just because… Even if something’s practically impossible, it doesn’t mean that people aren’t occassionally tasked with the performing of miracles. But, let’s say… hypothetically, this world was built.. Don’t you think there might be a such thing as over-inclusiveness? I mean, not to say that everyone doesn’t deserve such freedom of expression. But, confined to this particular media, the movement might speed up the death of music. Everything has a beginning and an end. No matter how healthy a person lives or how careful they are, they will die. And no matter what direction music takes, it too will also inevitably have an end, a limit. If just about EVERYONE was playing it, even with such freedom, would it cheapen music? There’s a thin line between stripping something of its elitist nature and diminishing its overall worth. Not the line that defines each outcome, but the line wherein your influence will touch down. It’s a very careful operation, doc. That’s all I’m sayin. It might even slow DOWN the death of music. It definitely COULD. But as I said… a very delicate procedure there.

wundayatta's avatar

@Piper_Brianmind Everyone (well nearly) talks. Does that cheapen talk?

Strauss's avatar

When I used to perform on a regular basis, my set-lists always included things that would include the listener, either clapping rhythm, singing along, and/or dancing. @daloon , I agree with much of what you said.

What is talent? Maybe this question deserves its own thread. I think all human beings have a unique set of talents, and have something to add to the conversation, whether through spoken/written language, singing, manipulation of sound through a musical instrument, art (drawing, painting, etc), sculpture; house building, gardening, farming; the list can go on and on and on..

What is the real difference here between:
Michealangelo’s “Venus de Milo” and a stone age “Venus”;
The Taj Mahal and a thatched hut on stilts in the rain forest;
The Who on stage at Woodstock and the “Rain Chant” performed by the crowd?

cwilbur's avatar

@daloon: Music is both a cultural practice and a product to be consumed.

There’s something to be said for getting together a small band and playing music—there really is nothing else like it. Music is best when it’s participatory, whether you’re jamming with your friends or in a community marching band.

But at the same time, there are amazing musicians out there. I’m never going to be able to hear Dietrich Fischer-Dieskau singing Winterreise live, but there’s an amazing recording of him, with Gerald Moore’s secco piano playing. Or, for a more modern example, Jimi Hendrix. Or the Beatles in their heyday.

wundayatta's avatar

Of course, you’re right, @cwilbur. All I’m suggesting is that the product to be consumed hurts the cultural practice.

cwilbur's avatar

@daloon: Except that the product itself doesn’t. No matter how many CDs are produced, nothing will take away the joy and wonderment of making music.

On the other hand, systematically gutting school music programs, and treating music education as if its purpose is to teach the children of the upper-class to play in school marching bands and not to provide enrichment to everyone’s life, means that many people never experience the joy and wonderment of making music in the first place.

It’s not CDs and recordings that do that.

DominicX's avatar

I just don’t think we can ignore people who have outstanding talent. Some people do have more ability than others. Some say you’re born with that ability. How else do you account for young children being able to compose music or young children who show the intelligence level of someone much older than them? That doesn’t mean I think people who don’t write great symphonies and compose music on that level should be ignored because they “aren’t good enough”, but it’s foolish to ignore the difference between them. What would I rather hear? An atonal piece that I came up with in 2 minutes or a symphony by Mahler? The latter is what I would rather hear. Music that sounds good to me is music that strikes me, of all genres. Some of the music I like has been called “untalented”. I don’t give a crap what other people think. I don’t give a crap if it was easy to create some of the music I listen to. Music I like is not going to change because of that.

I meant it when I said I can’t compose like the great composers did. I don’t even know how. I don’t understand the concept of composing a symphony. How write for 50 different instruments and somehow make it all work together. I don’t understand how people do it. But I appreciate it. I admire the people who have done it. I don’t have a desire to do it. I am content with listening to the symphonies written by other composers. I don’t need to be writing those symphonies or playing them. Listening to them is perfectly fine for me.

And I agree with what people said about recordings allowing you to do more. A lot of the music I listen to has had something done to it after it was recorded. It requires someone to put the song together and add effects and for that reason it wouldn’t sound the same if it were performed live. I like the music the way the composer intended it, and if that means it’s difficult to perform live, that’s fine. It’s still music.

trailsillustrated's avatar

I love auto tune when its about the news

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