How would you punish this fellow?
Asking this question with a tip of the hat to jbfletcherfan who brought it to my attention, I wonder what you might see as an appropriate punishment for this guy? Is there ever any excuse for hitting someone else’s child? Where was the parent when a stranger put his hands on her baby? I’m pretty sure the mama bear in me would have come out and dude would have lost a finger – at the very least.
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Hmmm, let’s see. I think I might see if he makes a plea, or is convicted of a crime, and then have the judge administer the normative penalty for that crime in his jurisdiction. How does that sound?
@pdworkin that sounds like a good start, then maybe we could have someone three or four times his size slap him back? Doggone you and your lack of desire for vigilante justice!~
I’d love to know what the punishment is for being convicted of a felony charge of cruelty to a child. I think he deserves the top amount of legal punishment.
Now, if it had been me, I’d have been arrested as well. I can’t imagine my reaction to something like that. I’ve had nutcases say crap to me about my son, but no one ever touched him…I’ve been able to defend myself quite well with words, but if you touch my child I will hurt you.
According to the article the aunt of the little girl said “As of today, she has really forgotten about it,” Ridiculous! My daughter was pushed down by a boy two months ago and she hasn’t forgotten about that. I hope this little gets the attention that she deserves after this incident.
As for the man that did this to her, I hope he spends the rest of his days in prison.
@jonsblond Well, the little girl is only two, and I think your daughter is around 4 or 5, right? I think a two year old may forget about it, but her mother never will.
…what you might see as an appropriate punishment for this guy? Oooh, while I’d like to give this fellow some “country justice,” as the Jezzies at Jezebel call it, and have a few burly gents get to slap him with all their might, realistically, I’d give him a couple months in the hoosegow if he’s found guilty. How dare he hit someone else’s child, a stranger’s child?
Is there ever any excuse for hitting someone else’s child? No. Never. Even when my neighbors and teachers would do it and then tell my guardian when I misbehaved, I resented these people laying a hand on me. And with them I fought or argued back, which got me in more trouble. Still, it stands to reason; who the hell were they to touch me?
Where was the parent when a stranger put his hands on her baby? I think she was right there. According to the story, he snatched the child, hit her, and then said to the mother, “I told you I’d shut her up.” Rightly or wrongly, my split-second initial reaction was, Dude. You’re 61 and you can’t control yourself that you need to slap a tiny child? You need help. And he looks to be a big man. It’s bullying, no matter what he thinks.
After people hit me, I would go play, too. But that doesn’t mean that the hitting had no effect on me.
@jonsblond Spend the rest of his days in prison? Isn’t that a bit much? Sure, this guy was just plain wrong to hurt another person’s innocent child, but to be punished for life? I certainly hope that was an exaggeration on your part.
At the most I’d slap him with a very heavy fine. The fact that he slapped a stranger’s child is wrong, but there’s a grey zone in here because children are slapped by their parents. It’s always possible that this man slapped his children. Are they gonna convict him for that?
I read about that guy.
I’m not qualified to decide what punishment is appropriate by the local laws. It sounds like he’ll receive a sentence consistent with the crime of assaulting an infant.
I’m not going to advocate an inhumane punishment. That’s akin to barbarism.
I’d slap him
with AIDs
But seriously, I’d put him on probation for 12 hours.
@casheroo You would be surprised what children can remember at such a young age.
@Saturated_Brain If he hit a 2 year old girl that he doesn’t even know, I’m sure it wasn’t the first time that he hit someone. I do believe that this man deserves many years in prison. What is wrong with our society? We’ll lock up pot smokers for a longer amount of time than someone who hits a child. He just deserves a fine? Really???
@jonsblond The issue is that you have to prove that he’s a menace to society. For all we know, he might just have been extremely cranky that day. Or he might be a psychopathic child-hater. That’s up to the legal system to prove. Has he hit any other children before? Who knows? This case needs more time to unfold.
Pot smokers are locked up because smoking pot is illegal. Hitting children isn’t. Abusing them is. And although this emotionally rankles with me, the man didn’t abuse the child. Just like I said, many parents slap their own children. Was he rash? Yes. Stupid? Yes. Committing a serious crime? No. The world’s prison spaces should cater to more deserving criminals like rapists. While he was wrong to hit another person’s child, that’s all he should be convicted of, not any other presumptions we might have about his character.
@Saturated_Brain And I believe that he should be convicted of hitting a 2 year old child.
@jonsblond Hence the heavy fine to prevent him from doing such a thing again. And only if he does it again should we then give him a heavier sentence.
@Saturated_Brain You have your opinion and I have mine. I didn’t jump all over yours did I? Lets just agree to disagree.
Put him in jail. Make sure the inmates know what he did, and let the guards know that they don’t have to protect him from whatever the other inmates do.
In my opinion anyone that abuses children or animals should all be sent to a far away remote island to fend for themselves, for life… If he did this to a complete stranger can you imagine what he might have done to his own children/grandchildren, if he had any??
Ok. So this guy lost control and he’s horrible, but a parent could lose control and it’s okay? A parent’s excuse is ok, but the slapper’s is not? Hmm…
@jonsblond Come on.. Surely there’s room for discussion here.. I ain’t jumping over your opinion. Just showing why I disagree.
@Saturated_Brain Sure there is, if I had the time. I can’t spend my entire morning on Fluther. I just gave my opinion. Is that not exceptable? I didn’t know that every answer had to turn into a long debate. Sorry to disappoint.
If you can prosecute anyone for hitting a child, that includes parents. A hit is a hit is a hit.
@theichibun that was my thought, too. As I said on my FB post, any crime done against a child is NOT tolerated in jail/prison. Let them have open season on him. The guards just need to go on an extended picnic one day…...
@jonsblond Sure is acceptable darling (I just like a nice discussion that’s all). Go off then and do whatever morning things you have to do (trust you’ve eaten breakfast at least!).
This may not be the appropriate forum, but for those of you advocating Draconian punishment for this fellow, beyond the scope of quotidian justice, have you lost your respect for the Rule of Law in our country? If so, what should replace it?
I don’t believe in an “Eye for an Eye” just send them away to a society where they must fend for themselves and live together . That might be a good reality show too!
I believe his offense would be considered second degree per Georgia Code Title 16, Section 16–5-70, which is punishable by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than ten years, but of course there can be plea bargains. I could not post a link in the normal manner, but here it is if you want to see the Code: http://law.onecle.com/georgia/16/16-5-70.html
What happened in Australia?
A parent cannot hit a child like this man did.
He is being charged with felony cruelty to a child first degree that link explains it, but since people will not google…
(a) A parent, guardian, or other person supervising the welfare of or having immediate charge or custody of a child under the age of 18 commits the offense of cruelty to children in the first degree when such person willfully deprives the child of necessary sustenance to the extent that the child́s health or well-being is jeopardized.
(b) Any person commits the offense of cruelty to children in the first degree when such person maliciously causes a child under the age of 18 cruel or excessive physical or mental pain.
That’s just first degree. It does not have to be a stranger, it can be a parent or guardian charged with it.
whoops, I see @whatthefluther posted it as well.
One look at this man can tell anyone that he has some serious issues going on far beyond smacking a child in walmart. He appears to have some anger management problems and most likely this is not his first offense, but rather the first one of the magnitude that has drawn such public exposure. Whatever the law allows is the punishment that should be meted, but my guess is a smart defense attorney will get him off with some anger management classes and probation, or worst-case scenario a committment to a mental health evaulation and treatment as recommended there.
I think this is just another item to add to my very long list of reasons I will never patronize a walmart.
Hang him by his pinkies for three hours a day for three months while playing a recording of a crying child 20 hours a day.
@barumonkey One look at his photograph told you that? Do me a favor and take a look at my Avatar. There are several things I’d like to know about me.
Yes, I think he should punished to the full extent of the law, and not beyond that.
But if it was my child in that moment I would have gone a long way in defense of the child that may very well have resulted in something much worse for him than whatever the law will do to him.
One good year in the pin would do it. Alot of the inmates in there have children, wives, and girlfriends on the outside. One thing they can all agree on is that they hate with a passion child abusers and rapist. Billy-Joe in the west wing of D block wll most likely be waiting for him. They all know what you did before you even get there, and they will be ready. He will be labeled in there and probably abused quite often. I think that will suffice.
@AtSeDaEsEpPoAoSnA That doesn’t strike you (and the person who gave you a “GA”) as the tee-tinyest bit unreasonable? Perhaps you could devote a minute or two to answering the question I asked above. I would be very interested in learning what you think.
Initial reaction: If someone did that to my child, I’d be hard pressed not to beat the shit out of him or kill him right then and there. Mama lion doesn’t do logic and reason in the heat of the moment.
Logical and reasonable reaction: He should be punished in accordance with the law. He should also have to undergo a psychological evaluation.
What he did was against Georgia law (if it’s not against the law in other places, it sould be) and he was sent to jail for it and that’s good enough. He deserves to be sent to jail. Of course, had this been my child, I might feel additional anger, but this is good enough. Jail is temporary; this isn’t worthy of a long sentence. No need for anything more severe, but he definitely should be in jail. You break the law, you are punished for it.
I can’t say how I would react if he hit my child in front of me. I have no idea what I would have done. People say they would stand there calmly because they’re super rational, but events like that tend to change people’s normal behavior. Either way, I find it disturbing and totally unacceptable, but of course, I find parents hitting their own children unacceptable as well, but that’s just me. :)
I would put him and @Saturated_Brain in a cell together for 1 month with a recording of a baby crying just out of reach. Seriously, the ease with which you talk about the mistreatment of children is sick.
I agree with @augustlan
@augustlan I completely agree that this man needs a psychological evaluation. Who in their right mind would hit a 2 year old child like this?
@Bri_L
i find his ability to not let his mind be blinded by emotion commendable.
Holy crap he is old! Ok….maybe we should commute that sentence to Community Service for 90 days, anger management maybe, and a year of probation. I have heard all about it, but never knew he was that old. He would get killed in the Big house.
So a slap is cruel? Man, we are really going overboard these days.
@tinyfaery How can a complete stranger coming up to a 2 year old and slapping her not be cruel?
@tinyfaery
You don’t get to slap other people’s children.
Community service as a kindergarten teacher—no milk and cookies.
No. But if a slap is cruel when a random person does it, then it’s cruel when a parent does. Again, a hit is a hit is a hit.
@tinyfaery
Well, that’s what I think…but I have controversial opinions. :)
@ragingloli – I find your inability to understand sarcasm in my first remark not surprising, given that you find lack of emotion commendable yet make it apart of your screen name.
@tinyfaery I agree. A parent should not slap a child in the face like this. I think that you are trying to compare grabbing a child and slapping her at least 4 times to a spanking. Two completely different things. That is not what a spanking is and an entirely different discussion.
I was spanked when I was a kid. I have never needed to spank my kids. I just can’t understand hitting kids. I mean, if you wouldn’t go up to an adult who was annoying you by talking to loud and wouldn’t stop and slap them you shouldn’t consider it an option with yours or anyone else’s kids
@VS….....“I think this is just another item to add to my very long list of reasons I will never patronize a walmart.” Huh? It’s not Wal-Mart’s fault! This nut could have been anywhere.
@Bri_L I was also spanked as a child. My children have been spanked. Maybe I’m in the minority but spanking to me is one swat on the butt, not grabbing and slapping a child. I also only spanked my children if they were doing something that could harm them or someone else. Never for a reason such as being loud or crying too much. I also sat down with them after I spanked them and told them why they couldn’t run in the street or stick their fingers in the light socket, then I hugged them and told them I love them. People that slap their children in the face or spank repeatedly because their child was being annoying is considered wrong imo, and is not what I consider to be a spanking.
I don’t think anyone is saying that parents/caretakers are free to slap children and strangers aren’t. It’s shocking, however, that the man was a stranger, and felt free to walk up to a woman he didn’t know and strike her 2-year-old child in front of her. The utter gall of such behavior is what’s setting people off. Let him be tried, and, if found guilty, serve a sentence. If I walked up to anyone and hit them, I could be charged with assault. This grown man apparently assaulted a defenceless child. What else needs to be said?
I don’t feel that anyone should strike someone like that unless it’s for self-defence or to aid a defenceless person. This man was not in such a situation.
@jonsblond – I guess I don’t see the point. I try to understand the message I got from it or that I send with it. I just don’t understand.
@Bri_L I understand what you are saying. Everyone has different parenting styles. I just get a little defensive because I hate being compared to abusers. The type of spanking that I described is not abuse in my opinion. It’s the type of spanking that I received and I didn’t turn into a violent person. The same with my children. They turned out to be kind, generous, helpful young men.
No wonder you guys have thousands of lurve points….
@jonsblond I am not calling you an abuser, I am saying none of it is abuse. A slap is a slap, be it on the face, the arm, the butt. If a parent can say it’s discipline and get away with it, then so should any random person. I see no difference. And, I would have preferred a slap to what I got, anyday.
@tinyfaery
So, I’m just curious, do you think what the stranger in question did was okay or was it not?
Sounds like the issue here is more with the law since the law does see a difference between the two.
@jonsblond – Oh I don’t think your an abuser. I don’t think my parents were physical abusers. I don’t think all spankers are abusers either. I agree everyone has different parenting styles. Yours involves spanking. Mine involves cheese.
@Bri_L Great! Now I’m hungry. :)
Not okay to hit another’s child. I don’t think it’s okay to lash out violently at all. So, if you hit your kid, I think it’s a bit hypocritical to say someone else hitting a kid, whether it’s their’s or not, is cruel or criminal. I see no difference. So, it’s all abuse or none of it is abuse. And since I am not about to say we should legislate parenthood, I say none of it is abuse.
@tinyfaery I can’t believe you said that. You don’t see the difference in smacking you own kid and smacking someone else’s kid? So if you and your spouse like to playfully wrestle in the park, you can walk up to someone else’s spouse and put them in a headlock? The law allows certain behavior within the family but that can’t be visited on strangers,
I think the appropriate punishment is civil. He hit the child, the punishment should come in the child’s name. Sue the SOB for every $ he’s got and put the money into a college fund
the correct punishment is to force him to raise the child himself.
you break it, you bought it. good ‘ol capitalism.
If he does that to a stranger I really hope he doesn’t have any children or grand-children! He deserves jail time and mom should have drop kicked his sorry ass!!!
If he’d do that to a 2 year old, and further a two year he doesn’t know, what might he do to anyone older. There’s someone with serious issues with boundaries if he thinks that’s ok. Jail is part punishment, part supposedly rehabilitation, and part of it is to protect society from wack-jobs.
Hitting is hitting. Excuse it how you wish. I will not.
I won’t excuse hitting. I won’t even excuse spanking. I didn’t spank my kids.
But there is a degree involved here as well. I think the fact that it’s a stranger and that the child is that young both make it many degrees worse.
He deserves to be sent to jail and have the other inmates informed that he picks on little kids.
@Bri_L I don’t talk about the maltreatment of children with ease. I’m very sorry if that’s the message you got from me. I’m talking about being pragmatic. This man should be punished for his crime. But his crime was the grabbing and slapping of a two year old. Parents hit their children too, sometimes they may overreact. Are we gonna go and convict them the same way just because they did that to their child?
This man should learn his lesson. But to send him to jail is a waste of prison space and taxpayers’ money. Mixing various ideas from the answers in here since I’ve been gone, give him a heavy fine, make him do community service, and also make him undergo a psychological evaluation (which is already part of what happens when someone is going through legal proceedings, if I’m not wrong).
If and only if we can prove that he’s a true menace to society do we then do something else, like maybe put him in a nursing home, or even putting him into jail if it’s serious enough.
But for crying out loud people, for all we know this is the first time he’s done this. I’d hate to be labelled a child-hater if I overreacted once and slapped a stranger’s child. There’re simply too many variables present in this case and I refuse to pass judgment till we have more details (as of right now we don’t even know whether he has any previous records).
Please get off the bandwagon of hate.
@Saturated_Brain Hauling off and hitting someone else’s child is nothing like hitting your own. Its not being hateful, its acknowledging a simple truth. You are allowed to parent your child, you are not allowed to parent every child you see.
If you “overreact” and slap a stranger’s child, I would hope you’d go to jail too no matter how few times you’ve done something similar.
@Saturated_Brain – Yes you did talk about the maltreatment of children with ease as shown here:“For all we know, he might just have been extremely cranky that day.” “Pot smokers are locked up because smoking pot is illegal. Hitting children isn’t. Abusing them is. And although this emotionally rankles with me, the man didn’t abuse the child.”
Were he to slap another person he could be charged with a crime. The two year old is incapable of defending herself.
I agree that putting him in jail doesn’t make sense with the lack of knowledge right now.
I won’t agree with the care free attitude you have towards the abuse of children.
If you ever, by your definition, “didn’t abuse” my son or daughter I “wouldn’t abuse” the hell out of you, I promise. I wonder how pragmatic you would be about that.
And I agree that the courts should decide what to do.
@Bri_L What then, would you consider as abuse? Nobody has of yet said that this man was right. I have never said that he was right. I would never touch your son or daughter because that’s your responsibility as the parent. If you think that I condone his slapping of a stranger’s child then you’re dead wrong. But calling it abuse it placing many other connotations on it which I’m not sure this man is deserving as of yet.
Furthermore, let’s be hypothetical here since there’s no still concrete evidence. What if his own daughter had committed suicide the previous day? He could very well be wandering around in shock and would behave in ways he normally wouldn’t. If we found out that that happened, wouldn’t that change the whole dynamics of the case?
But slapping another person’s child, while wrong, should not be considered abuse until society decides that slapping children is cruel and violent.
I agree with @pdworkin: it is customary and appropriate to try the accused and await a verdict before sentencing him to a punishment. The punishment ought to be whatever is specified by the applicable law for his offense, assuming that he is found guilty. It sounds like some folks around here would be okay with vigilante justice, if not a lynching.
I’m just curious, what would the punishment be for walking up and slapping a person aged 18 years or older who had just said something you didn’t like?
@Saturated_Brain – Slapping children is cruel and violent no matter who does it to them. It is not the same as spanking, or swatting the behind with the hand and hand only.
But you have convinced me in PM that while you do not speak easily of the maltreatment of children, you have not convinced me that what this man did was ok.
@Bri_L Never have I said that what this man did was okay and never will I say that what he did was okay. He was plain wrong to hit the child and he should get his punishment. The only thing which I’m against is the vigilante-style justice I perceive being espoused by some here.
The way I see it man, the main thing we disagree on for this case is the extents one should go in punishing children.
Crickets from @AtSeDaEsEpPoAoSnA and all the other Dracos in this thread. Don’t you want to defend your positions?
@Saturated_Brain – I didn’t say you said it was “right”.
I did take issue with the following attitude, “But slapping another person’s child, while wrong, should not be considered abuse until society decides that slapping children is cruel and violent.”
We will continue to disagree on what is abuse and on the idea that there is anything that would make a grown adult slapping a defenseless two year old, known to him or not, more understandable.
The punishment doesn’t enter our disagreement as far as I am concerned.
@Saturated_Brain Society has decided that slapping children is cruel and violent. Its written into many laws about child abuse. Where have you been?
If this was an adult that was slapped, you can bet that appropriate charges would have been filed for that situation having to do with the battery that occurred.
@Bri_L No, but you said that I haven’t convinced you that what the man did was ok, when that was never my goal.
@avvooooooo I guess we’ve just been raised up different. “Beating with a belt, shoe, or other object”. I suppose you have never been brought up with these have you? The way I see it, all these ‘rights’ and laws to ‘protect’ people/animals/the most miniscule thing are just going too far. I may not agree with hitting children using objects other than the hand, but I will not go so far as to file criminal charges.
Charging someone in court for slapping you… You’re right.. Where has our society gone to? Whatever happened to sitting that person down and settling it person to person in a civilised manner? Now we must involves judges?
@Saturated_Brain Personally, if someone came up and slapped me, I’d end the thing they started. Kick to the balls, forearm to the back of the neck, kick in the kidney when they’re down and call the cops. Perfectly legal to stop them from assaulting you. Assault and battery is a crime, however, and should be treated as one. If someone is hauling off and slapping people, they are not acting in a civilized manner and should reap what they sow. If they are committing a crime, they should be charged with it. Its not that hard of a concept to grasp. The laws, the courts, are there for a reason.
“Beating” is the operative word. The way I was “brought up” is irrelevant. What is relevant is the laws that apply to this situation and your incorrect ideas of what society and the laws tolerate.
@Saturated_Brain – Settle it person to person in a civilized manner? One of those people gave up that right the minute his grown up butt decided to slap a defenseless two year old.
You typed “Charging someone in court for slapping you… You’re right.. Where has our society gone to? Whatever happened to sitting that person down and settling it person to person in a civilised manner? Now we must involves judges?”
If that is your approach when you interact with my children then I restate my approach.
If you ever, by your definition, “don’t abuse” my son or daughter I “won’t abuse” the hell out of you, I promise. I wonder how pragmatic you would be about it then.
@Bri_L I don’t understand your approach at all. I don’t like what the man has done. I hate the fact that he slapped a defenceless two year old, and yet you’re treating me in such a hostile manner.
And I’m talking about an adult slapping another adult. Not an adult slapping a child. Why would I approach your children? They’re children. You’re misrepresenting my argument.
@avvooooooo We both know that we’re talking about children here. And we both know that what the man did is wrong. If all we disagree on is the term “abuse”, then perhaps I should clarify my case.
@avvooooooo & @Bri_L I shall therefore put forth my own definition of the term ‘abuse’. I view abuse as someone aiming to maliciously cause unnecessary hurt or pain to another person or living creature. This is why I hesitate to label what this man did as ‘abuse’. I believe very strongly in intent. If the man had done that to the child because he wanted to maliciously cause her unnecessary pain, then so be it. He’s abused the child. But if he had done it because he thought that it was a necessary punishment, heck if he thought that slapping children was the way to go in proper discipline, then we’d have to teach him that you don’t go parenting other people’s children. But I would not call it abuse.
Furthermore, there’s the added grey zone that slapping is used by some parents as a form of disciplining their children. But do we call them child abusers even when they slap their children, even when they love them? Do we call them child abusers when they belt their children, yet are the same parents who will cry at graduation and hug and kiss them? I am extending that to this case here.
There are no further details on this particular case. I am not going to pass judgment on this man, except based on what I know.
And I know that he slapped a defenceless two year old. I know that he went out of line. But I do not know exactly what was going through his head. Murder is murder when it’s premeditated. If it’s not it’s homicide. What were this man’s intentions? The case needs to unfold more.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: I did not come onto Fluther to make enemies. If animosity and high emotions are all this conversation is going to result in, then I don’t see any point in continuing it.
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[Mod says] Flame off folks.
@avvooooooo Unnecessary? That’s the grey zone. Parents slap children. Are they child abusers? And again, why are we so hung up on this one point if we all agree that the man is wrong?
I would seriously appreciate it if you could approach my points without descending into insults.
@Saturated_Brain You’re talking in circles and hypotheticals and not really taking in anything anyone else is saying. Why in the hell should we have a conversation with you or take you seriously when you choose to do this? You present statements as truth without basis and expect us to swallow them then tell us we’re wrong when we come back with facts or make other unfounded statements or give us personal opinions of what society should be and what people should think.
Abuse is legally defined. There’s a definition that society has agreed on, it exists, it works, its what we go by. Your personal definition is absolutely irrelevant.
People beat the shit out of their children for years and still turn up on graduation day to boohoo about their baby doin’ the damn thing. Your ideas about abuse are so far out of touch with reality… its almost incomprehensible to me how someone can be so oblivious and then come on a question to talk about abuse v. ... whatever you think this is.
You were the one who wanted to comment on my upbringing and now its sweetness and light? HA!
@avvooooooo Before I answer all of your claims, please answer the question I’ve asked. Why are we so hung up over this one singular definitional point when we both agree that the man is wrong?
@Saturated_Brain Do you not see that whether or not this is abuse is the crux of the matter? Really? Do you really think that your definition of abuse trumps the societal definition? Seriously?
Ugh.
[mod says] Take this discussion elsewhere please.
@jbfletcherfan – I never said it was walmart’s fault. I simply stated it was another in a long list of reasons I will not shop at walmart. This incident speaks somewhat about the type of people (in GENERAL, people – not everyone!) who shop there. In the years I did shop at walmart, I found the customer service to be non-existent, the shoppers to be rude, and the quality of their products inferior. Just FYI, my last sentence was simply an aside to the story.
@VS I think you have some major misconceptions about the type of people who shop at Wal-Mart.
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