9/11 To Iraq. Knowing what we know now... would we have done it differently?

We already knew then what we know now. Or at least we easily could.

I agree with @whitenoise. Living in Canada in the lead up to the Iraq war, the fact that 9/11 and Iraq had nothing to do with each other was widely known. Bush got the people whipped into a frenzy and there was no way to speak reason without being branded a traitor. I personally think if a terrorist attack had occured sometime in 2004 there’s a chance American would have flirted with fascism.

What @whitenoise said. We knew at the time that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Many of us knew that the Iraqis wouldn’t “welcome us as liberators” when we violently invaded their country.

A lot of us knew. But half of this country was too stupid and bloodthirsty to listen.

There is no connection between 9/11 and the war in Iraq.

Al Quaeda was not active in Iraq.

to put it simply, we wouldn’t have liked it anymore, but when’s the last time the people had any power in this country?

Glad to see there are so many informed people. My next question would be…Why are we still there? Who is really in charge, and what is the real agenda?

@Darbio16, I was under the impression that we were pulling out as fast as logistically possible.

Is this some roundabout way of promoting some inside job conspiracy theory?

@Darbio16 1. George Bush got us in there, destroyed the government and much of the infrastructure and then went back to the ranch. 2. In charge of what? Iraq? US efforts? What? 3. The real agenda was to surpass his father. Everybody who died was collateral damage to his ego.

BTW, why ask this now? Where were you for the last 8 years?

I have been saying this all along. I only recently found fluther.

Can anyone see that this war is leading up to end game for democracy and even humanity as we once knew it?

@Darbio16, what the hell are you talking about.

If you really want an accurate analogy though, you can’t do what you did above. Because most of the 19 hijackers were Saudis, not Iraqis Afghanis. To make your analogy work, they’d have to attack Canada.

Going to Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11, Bush planned to go to Iraq before he ever took office, there is very clear evidence to support this.

1) Saddam tried to assassinate Bush’s father and Bush vowed revenge
2) Bush’s entire original cabinet was comprised of the founder of the PNAC who put in writing as early as 1997 that they felt American foreign policy should invade Iraq, then Iran then Libya, then Syria
3) When we were attacked on 9/11, intelligence officers told Rumsfeld that there was no Iraq connection and Rumsfeld told them to find one, and
4) Over a year before the Iraq invasion, Condi Rice came into a cabinet meeting to tell Bush something about Saddam, and he cut her off, saying, “fuck Saddam, we’re taking him out.”

Essentially, we went into Afghanistan in the first place to get the specific people who attacked us because that’s where the terror cell was at the time. We let Bin Laden slip right between our fingers (yet we managed to find Hussein who hadn’t attacked us hiding in a 1 foot square hole in the Iraqi desert). Bush as much as said that Bin Laden himself wasn’t even all that important.

But now we’re bogged down in two wars, which we’re only in because we fucked things up and are trying to put them right.

@Qingu I’m talking about this war being pushed by a large global network of fascist one world government loving maniacs hell bent on enslaving all of humanity with war, famine, economic depression, violence, fear, terror feeding off of our stupidity and eating the bread of our labor.

No one cares what you are under the impression of. 6 years ago most of the western world was hell bent on invading the homelands of the terrorists. Many otherwise good Americans were fooled into a blood frenzy under false pretenses. The framers of this war accomplished their goal so of course we are pulling out. They set up a central bank, so its a done deal. Now on to Iran and North Korea.

And your evidence for your assertions there is…?

http://www.cbi.iq/history.html

That’s Iraq’s Central Bank website. I forgot to mention that the people behind the Iraq invasion set up central banks connected with the IMF and World Bank. Not all central banks are evil. But all central banks connected with the IMF are independent agencies that are not answerable to the nations they “serve”. Iraq’s Central bank became an independent agency in 2006. These guys don’t mess around. Soon you will see walmarts and Mcdonalds popping up everywhere because meaningless paper money will be plenitful and Iraq will become as corrupt as the rest of western society.

Heres an interesting article from 03’.

http://www.originaldissent.com/shpak031803.html

Some food for thought:

http://www.911kemet.co.uk/audio-video.html

Can you summarize the evidence presented in those links? I’m wary of checking them out at work.

@dalepetrie We, as in you and me, did not fuck anything up. Did you see my quote above from Herman Goerring? We are being dragged along towards a one world government. The only thing we are doing wrong is staying silent about this matter. We owe it to the the victims of this war and of 9/11 to seek true justice. Young men and women take an oath to the U.S. Constitution when enlisting into the armed services, not to the leaders of the country. Since Thomas Jefferson wrote, although maybe he didn’t write it, the Constituion I think other things he said during that time period has relevance, such as this:

“If there is one principle more deeply rooted in the mind of every American, it is that we should have nothing to do with conquest.” Thomas Jefferson

Maybe Another Founding Father will shed some light:

“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. ” James Madison

By allowing our government to continue this coarse we are all accomplices to the atrocities. All of our hands are bloody. Either by way of our taxes funding this, by our support in the voting booth, or, and worst of all, by our silence.

@Qingu Man! Get some work done and check this shit when you get home.

I actually agree that we are approaching a single world government. But I don’t think you need to invoke an evil conspiracy behind this movement. A world government is in many nations’ interests. In the same way that European nations have an interest to join the EU. Many liberals openly want the UN and international law to have more power.

However, I utterly fail to see what this has to do with the Iraq War. Bush’s party is ideologically opposed to giving up American sovereignty and succumbing to UN war crime tribunals; right wingers are the ones terrified of the “Amero” or whatever. One of the main advantages I see to a world government would be to prevent unilateral military action like ours against Iraq, and to punish those responsible in international court.

You make the mistake many people do of confusing “tyranny” with “broader sovereignty.” The EU is not more tyrannical than Turkey.

And you seem to have a religious person’s faith in your end times scenario. Just as fanatic Christians interpret any international event as “evidence” that the end times are upon us, you are trying to paint every single thing that happens as cogs in a world government conspiracy.

Here it is again, you may have missed it above.

“In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.” Franklin Delano Roosevelt

I am a secular humanitarian should I choose a label. Christians usually bow and accept their fate in fear. I am pronouncing loudly that YES! there is a conspiracy. But I think you have somehow, actually it’s thanks to the media, lost the true meaning of the word conspiracy.

Definition: A combination of men for an evil purpose; an agreement, between two or more persons, to commit a crime in concert, as treason; a plot.

Citizens of the world have been trained by the media to automatically laugh when the word conspiracy comes out.

I use we meaning our country, I’m still a US citizen and even if I was one of the loudest voices crying against all this, I’m still part of the country that cause the problems. I am doing anything but staying silent, never have, never will, I’m the first to say Bush, Cheney and the whole lot of them are guilty of treason and last I checked, we hanged people for that. I think the defining moment for our Democracy will be when it’s decided ultimately whether this whole thing gets swept under the rug vs. Bush and Cheney standing trial. I have no doubt they both lied to Congress and to the American people and if we don’t do something about it, then future Presidents will be able to get away with even more.

Also, Europe took the EU after two devastation world wars that were also indeed engineered far in advance.

“We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it.
The only question is whether World Government will be achieved
by conquest or consent.” Paul Warburg (International Banker part of the NWO) said that to the senate Feb. 17, 1950.

There you have it. An out-of-context FDR quote proves an evil global conspiracy. Wake up, sheeple.

But an out of context war does not warrant an evil global conspiracy? Wake up @Qingu

For the leader of a global conspiracy, Bush sure fucked up his working relationships with the co-conspirator world nations and the UN….

Oh shit, that’s what Bush wants you to think!

@Darbio16, my point is, if there is going to be a world government, engaging in stuff like the Iraq War is not going to usher it in. The war completely fractured our international relationships.

World government made much bigger strides under Clinton, and will probably become more feasible under Obama, because these people have foreign policies that do not rely on unilateral force and actually seem to acknowledge the existence of international law.

Saying you’re against world government is one thing, but claiming that the Iraq War is part of a conspiracy to bring about world government makes no damn sense.

Qingu,

The only way to put down people as smart as Darbio16, who have seen the truth and will continue to spout it in perfectly-crafted sentences that totally make sense, is to ignore him. I’ve been helping the conspiracy for One Massive Government (OMG) since 1995, and that’s how I deal with people like him.

Im just glad that @Darbio16 was able to bring back around his banter on banking even in this discussion. i was worried he had moved on to other crazy ideas, leaving his original one in the lurch. Kudos.

I, for one, welcome our new overlords. hopefully, i’ll be turned into soilent green last.

“There are over 1,000,000 dead Iraqi’s yet the ‘terror cells’ exist to this day.”
What source are you using for the body count?

@benjaminlevi magic math, wherein numbers do not matter.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090216/tirman
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18765.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/ferner05112007.html

Google it if you want more, but the only people denying the real death toll is the American Mass Media.

Also, when using logic, the killing of even one was totally unfounded when considering Iraq. Again, 19 independent men in a terror cell committed the deed on 9/11. Not the any nation or government. (According to the official story anyway).

@eponymoushipster I knew you would enjoy that. It does seem to be quite a reoccurring subject. I’m thinking that the only thing holding your life together is denial. Otherwise things might get awfully serious awfully quick, and that’s just not your style.

@Darbio16 you’re right. let me take off my foil hat so your whacko can grab a full hold of me. that’d be real serious.

America would have tried the 19 American terrorists and convicted them, because America is a democracy and a rule of law country. The Afghan government at the time (the Taliban) was asked to close down the terror camps, arrest the terrorists and extradite them. They refused. Iraq didn’t threaten America, they threatened and tortured their own people.

So the consensus @mattbrowne is onward with fascism? Did you notice that we have long since surpassed the number of people that Sadaam killed?

@Darbio16 You’re being a bit over the top, aren’t you?

On with fascism? .... Who is suggesting just that?

I think Matt is from the Eastern Dutch provinces ;) and though I do not want to talk on his behalf he has never ever so far even slightly hinted at giving in to fascism.

In Europe we have experience with the fallout of fascism and other such ideologies and their wars. Mostly for that reason, most people in Europe never supported the invasion of Iraq and those that were in favor would have thought the opposite of promoting fascism.

You can say whatever you want of the US, but it is definitely not a fascist state, either.

One thing needs to be certain to everyone. Though Hitlers regime were facists, they were not the only type of fascist there ever was to be. Fascism is simply the merger of corporation and government. Take an outside look at American Government and you will see the giant revolving door between elected office and sitting on the board of a large multinational corporation. Hitler utilized one corporation in particular, I.G. Farben. It is sad that many of my American brethren haven’t heard of this company, but I know most Europeans have. Now our American government gives much favoritism toward Monsanto, who bought the subsidiaries of I.G. Farben, and other multi-national corporations. Monstanto even patents DNA, something that if left unchecked could create oppression of the most sinister nature, binding creatures by their blood.

The question isn’t whether America is Fascist, but actually what flavor of Fascist. There are your brutal totalitarian fascists, like Hiter, and then you have a more socialist fascist, like what obama is creating, all with the end goal of dominating the populous by any means necessary.

Using corporate might, a fascist government can declare war in an instant. Companies like Halliburton, Boeing, and Black Water would not exist if our fascist government would not tax the labor of the people. Halliburton makes nearly everything that our soldiers use. From port-a-potties to kitchenware to bunkers. Who are we defending against? The viscous barbarian hordes that we must protect ourselves from who roam the earth in search of peaceful people in order to slay them? NO! It is the leader of the nation that create war. Common people are peaceful. Most people do not want war. Even the viscous so called “right wingers” the DHS are warning against are only reacting to our imperialistic and overly large government that manages to do nothing but create another tax so that more and more life suffocating red tape can be created so that , heaven forbid, I may not even take a shit without asking permission to do so from Big Brother.

Our founders freaked out over them paying a measly 10% tax. Now Americans pay a net amount of taxes, direct ,indirect or inflation, of 40% or MORE! Somehow they have tamed the masses enough to keep them quiet, and even artificially happy with their ever dependent life. With music, movies, television, magazines and myriad products on beautiful shelves in lavish stores. Soon, it is said, we may even be asking the government if it is ok to live because of socialized healthcare. I could, and probably will in later posts, go on and on about the issues humanity is facing thanks to the global warlards with their corporations for war material production and banking cartels that finance their every move.

@Darbio16 You have an interesting definition of fascism. You may be the only one using it, but that doesn’t seem to matter.

i hope my fascism is strawberries n’ cream

@Darbio16, if you really hate taxes and government encroachment that much, why don’t you just move to a country that doesn’t have a government? I hear it’s wonderful there. No taxes, no socialistfascists, no tamed masses…. they have warlords, but not global ones.

@Qingu that’s what i’ve said before, too.

@Darbio16 – I suggest you rent the following 2 movies to get a better understanding what fascism really means:

Sophie Scholl – The Final Days
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0426578/

The Downfall
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0363163/

Then we’ll talk again. I welcome your interest in educated discussions about fascism. It requires education.

George W. Bush was the worst president in US history in my opinion. But he wasn’t a fascist. And the US has never been a fascist country. There are flaws like in other countries. Today Germany is a successful democracy. So is the Netherlands, the UK and many other countries. This doesn’t mean these countries are without flaws.

Watch those two movies. They are excellent.

@mattbrowne I disagree. Not that GWB was the worst president in US history, we agree upon that. I think he and the rest of his administration were fascists, if not in name, definitely in practice. The gradual deregulation of industry, business and the financial sector, plus the intertwining of multi-nationals and the government (a la Cheney’s early secret energy policy meetings, for one example), as well as the attacks on Afghanistan and especially Iraq, did a lot of damage to the government and to the economic system.

(Edit) I once heard it put like this: Communism (socialism) is when the Government controls business; Facism is when Business controls the government; Capitalism is the narrow path between the two.

I have already asked myself the same question. If the U.S. were invaded, my friends would be anyone that was willing to make the attackers lives miserable. I’d even join with republicans and the KKK. I suspect that, if the attackers had money, many republicans would support the invasion. Especially if the attackers set up christian churches and outlawed gay people.