Does this change your thinking about corporal punishment?

I believe in teaching non-violence. Period.

I’m not against spanking (when it is performed in extremely specific settings and situations), but I think spanking a child who is 1 year old or younger is just too young. So no, it doesn’t really change my personal opinion, since I don’t plan on spanking any infants when I have them.

BTW~Nice article. I have a linguistically advanced, gentle, humorous 4yr old. He mimics us well!

I’m not even a little surprised by the article you linked to. It doesn’t change my feelings because I don’t think hurting children is an appropriate way for an adult to behave.

Being aggressive towards a child teaches that aggression is appropriate.

I’m glad more and more studies are showing negative effects of physical punishment.

You do what you have to do. You might learn from it. But you cant go back.

I didn’t know people actually spanked 1-year-olds. There really should be a test…

Nope, doesn’t change my thinking. Because I always felt spanking a young child would lead them to thinking hitting is the answer to their problems. When we moved in with my parents, I told them my stance on spanking and they listened. So, we all worked together to form a discipline tactic with my young son, and it’s worked out pretty well.

@Facade I whole heartily agree with you

@Facade Seriously. I’ve been in sitatuons where I just needed to put my son in the crib and walk away. Having a child is so stressful, especially when they just don’t listen..but they’re only babies! And I see nothing wrong with parents admitting “I was getting overwhelmed and needed to walk away/ask for help/take a break. If more parents did that, I think there’d be less abuse. But, they need the support to turn to.

I just loooove studies that provide no information on how they come to their conclusions. This morning we had the study that said taking a shower can be hazardous to your health completely lacking context.

As far as corporal punishment it depends on the child and on the punishment. I was spanked, rarely as were my 5 siblings and all of our children. So far all of us has been noticably aggressive and we all score high on cognitive and intelligence. More importantly none of us have been sociopaths or been in jail. I am aware of peers who never were spanked and never learned about boundaries and have led miserable lives and raised miserable children.

There is no one size fits all in life.

I once spanked my younger sister when she was a toddler, swatted her on the butt and then felt like crap because she’s never forgotten it and of course, she’s never let me forget it.

@casheroo You’re completely right.

I was spanked as a child when I had been warned not to do something beforehand, and only if it was something very ugly or dangerous to myself or someone else. I never got confused and thought it meant that I could hit people; I understood that my parents were there to guide me and they had a different role than I did. I think my parents got it exactly right on the spanking subject, and it worked on me and never had any negative consequences. I’m going to try to do the same. Some children never need a spanking, but I was a hard headed child and it worked. I’m glad they got the message across before I did anything stupid. I knew to respect what they said or they would follow through on their warnings, and because of it I never got hurt, etc.

Spanking a one-year-old? Why?!

I never spanked my daughter, ever. She responded very well to being deprived of being with people or having a toy taken away. Those things didn’t work with my son. We did try spanking him one time, when he was four, but that immediately made him decide that it gave him a license to hit others so we never, ever did it again. Instead we used a restraint technique so we could hold him still until he settled down.

Although we didn’t spank either child at an early age, my son was very aggressive at age three, while my daughter has never been aggressive although she can take care of herself just fine. Some of the neighborhood boys discovered she has an excellent left hook. Sometimes aggressiveness is more a function of the make-up of the individual child than it is the environment.

With that said, I still don’t believe in spanking. However, I have been known to hold PlayStations hostage.

My thoughts:
– I swatted my son on the bottom maybe a total of 4 times (other than playful/wrestling kind of behavior). I would do it over again. It was never a first resort. It was never out of me being reactionary and out of control. It was not painful. It was my (single mom) way of saying “I am in charge. You are not. You have been disobedient (and it would have had to be something quite serious) and this behavior must end now.”
– I think 1 is too young to be spanked.
– For that matter, I thought ~9 was too old to be spanked.
– As a single mom (and only parent), I had to find ways to balance mom/dad roles of nurturing/disciplinarian.
– I don’t believe for one second that I caused my son harm.
– I do not believe that “painless” spanking in moderation is necessarily harmful.
– I do not believe that spanking necessarily causes the outcomes cited in the article.
– I do believe that an environment where people do not communicate about expectations, do not educate their children about the right way to do things and just react to the wrong ways, will cause children to be aggressive.
– I don’t plan to spank future children, but am not completely opposed to spanking as I have outlined above.

I agree with @BBSDTfamily and @galileogirl. I was spanked as a child (although not as young as one years old, I think that is probably too young) if my behaviour deserved it in my parents eyes. However this was VERY rare because I knew my boundaries (as did my brother who was also spanked if need be, although he did push the boundaries more than I did!!!). I have never considered myself traumatised by my parents punishments, in fact, the only time I think of it’s affects on me is when answering questions like this one.

I have also never shown any signs of violence but as far as that is concerned, I can only talk about my own reactions to being spanked.

Having said all of that, I don’t know how I feel about spanking. My parents did not just hit me for the smallest little crime and so when they did, I knew that I had done something to deserve it. I think I was spanked no more than five times in my childhood, if that. There are many parents that may not be as controlled in the punishments as my parents were and so may be more inclined to abuse their children and use the “spanking as discipline” card as an excuse.

I strongly believe that kids NEED to be aware of their boundaries and as a child I always did. For that reason I have never felt bitter about the rare occassions that my parents did feel the need to spank me. However, I am sure that spanking isn’t the only way to make children aware of boundaries.

I have to admit, I have been guilty of witnessing a child being a brat and thinking “that kid just needs a good smack”

There is a difference between spanking (a swat on the butt) and beating. With spanking I personally agree with. Beating NO!!!! When I was younger and was being bad I would be spanked if I didn’t listen. I am now 24 and am very normal with everyday life. I am not a violent person. It takes alot to get me REALLY mad. As an adult now I dont despise my parents for occasionally spanking me when I was not behaving. I personally don’t see anything wrong with spanking a child. Now there are ass holes who beat the hell out of their kids and claim it was spanking. That I DO NOT agree with. There is a HUGE difference between spanking and beating. A couple swats on the rear end, I dont see a problem with. People who punch their child in the face or anywhere else for that matter, needs the shit kicked outta them. I do not have children yet. But I can assure you if they are misbehaving and nothing else is working, I will deffinetly swat them on the rear. And for all those nosey ass people in the stores, if you see someone swat their childs behind, mind your own damn business. If you see someone punching their child, then by all means call the authorities. I just can’t stand people who think if you swat your childs behind that is child abuse.

As a person on the recieving end of some serious beatings as a child i can vouch for the article.
I can say in all seriousness that hitting a child on a regular basis will mould their personality to the extent that violence is the norm.
I am always searching for a confrontation,“black is fucking white!”.
If two people are arguing,i then make it my argument even though i don’t know the people arguing and the reason for that sort of behaviour in adulthood is purely down to a violent childhood.
I see violence as a way to stop things quickly and exert punnishment at the same time and get a feeling of utter crontrol and an amount of pleasure i suppose.

The other me is probably the most loving nd caring person you could meet.
I have never offered violence toward my wife and children in any shape or form although i think one look can do the trick with the kids,it’s asif they have a sense of impending doom when i look at them.ha ha ha Quite an amusing situation really but an uncomfortable thought that my children see me as someone who would hurt them…quite sad really.

All the above is from the heart and quite a lot of it is irrelevant to the question posted but i thought it may endorse the validity of the research being done.
I thank the asker for giving me the chance to tip this on you and just to say DON’T HIT YOUR KIDS!!! cos it fucks em up!!! well some of them.
No sob story just how i live my life,all is normal for me.

Good article… I don’t spank my son, and don’t plan to. He’s 2. There was one time, one time, when my son did something (I can’t even remember now) and I smacked his hand. It was because of something I told him repeatedly not to touch for his own safety- I want to say pestering the cat and she was hissing, or reaching for the stove while it was on… something like that. Anyway, he started smacking us when he didn’t get his way. From that one time, I learned how wrong he had taken the strike, and haven’t done it since. We put him in his crib for “time out.” It works just fine to threaten time out. Sometimes.

Time out doesn’t work for all kids. And I am not saying spanking does either. There are some kids who learn their lesson from time out. There are others who would laugh at you if you said they had to go to time out, generally these kids will learn from a swat on the butt. I know many people who got spanked as a child and they are normal. I guess it affects each child differently.

@Ashalah : This is true, but my son is only 2. Sometimes, when I put him in time out, it doesn’t work. He plays in his crib, sings to himself, jumps around rather than being upset and learning a lesson. But it works for me in that, I don’t strangle him into unconsciousness.

Strangle him into unconsciousness?? What kind of sick person are you?? Who the hell said anything about that? I am saying, a 2 year old is not going to “be abused” by a swat on his butt. Or a swat on the hand. Usually it scares them more than hurts them. But somehow they learn that way. I am just giving my opinion, you don;t have to agree with it.

That article is talking about spanking a 1 year old. I didn’t even think that existed except for abusive parents. I mean, maybe you can argue that when a child is doing something that is trully dangerous, and will not be obedient for thier own good, like consistantly running out into the street, and has not responded to any other form of positive or negative reinforcement to curb the behavior, then maybe I can see resorting to a spank. Because, a child who is old enough to run into the street will remember and be able to understand the consequence of that behavior if they do it again. But, an infant? WTF?! That is insane to me, it is a baby. That is abuse.

@Ashalah I really don’t think Ubersiren was saying she or you do that…perhaps go back and read her response more closely? I can’t speak for her, but I think she meant that putting him in his crib and walking away works for her because she doesn’t get so overwhelmed and angry that she ends up strangling him, which I’m sure wasn’t a literal statement to begin with…just a figure of speech.

@ASoprano There is a HUGE difference between beating a child and spanking them. Especially if the spanking is done in a responsible, controlled way and not done in irrational anger or used as a release of that anger. Yes, beating your children would affect their personalities and perceptions on behavior…however, swatting your child on the butt once or twice will not have that effect. Also, the article was not talking about beating…it was talking about spanking, and considering the conclusions of the study, they were probably looking at spankings that were done in anger and/or were more than just simple swats on the butt, which is why this article does not change my opinion at all. I was “spanked” as a child, as were my three siblings and all of my friends. None of us are dysfunctional or aggressive…we’re all quite normal and successful in school and life. As @galileogirl said, one size does not fit all.

Each generation in my family has stepped away from corporeal punishment. My Dad was whipped with a buggy whip as a child, I was spanked with a switch, I did not spank my children. It is my fervent belief that as the human race continues to mature, spanking will become a thing of the past completely.

@Ashalah: Ok, I was totally joking about that… Jebus. And I’m not disagreeing with you, just engaging in discussion. I even agreed with you partially.

It didn’t change my opinion on spanking because I will always feel that spanking is abuse period!!! Hitting is abuse therefore spanking is abuse

@YARNLADY I am quite amazed Yarnlady because you finally gave an answer I agree with, and I truly hope that spanking becomes a thing of the past, the sooner the better and hopefully it would lead to a less violent society.

@justus2 I like that you said spanking is abuse, period. I see many people saying a swat on the butt isn’t abuse. Yes – it is!. Hitting is hitting, no matter how soft, it is still the wrong message.

@YARNLADY Like I said this is something that we agree on, I wasn’t spanked many timees, probably like 10 times but that to me is 10 times too many, i will never ever hit my kids no matter what they do or say to me ever!!!

@ubersiren I know you were joking about the strangling thing, I was too.

Information does not change my mind. But who hits children when they’re one, two or even three?! That’s just bad parenting!

Im with you @Saturated Brain! I was spanked as a child but not at age 1 or 2 or 3 for that matter that shits fucked up! I mean at that young one cannot make a cognizant decision to be a little shit head and deserve a spanking…

I was thinking about this q today while I was taking care of a wonderful little 17 month old munchkin. It took a while for me to realize the article in this question is about one year olds. Most one year-olds don’t even talk yet, only have a few teeth, and just want to explore their worlds safely and be loved. The fact that some people would dare inflict intentional physical harm on a child of that age is sickening. It shows such a lack of self-control and coping ability in the adult. Disgusting.

to the 3 answers above me, it isn’t just at a young age, never ever inflict pain upon a child, and I hate it when people say a painless spanking, being hit hurts and who the hell are we to judge how much something hurts a child.

@justus2 You’re right. I should have written “a child of any age.”

@Likeradar Yea, these people that spank any child make me sick but the ones that spank a 1–4 year old are really horrible because those are the ages that we need to focus most on their trust in us as their parents, and I don’t see how inflicting pain upon them will earn trust from them.

@justus2 Why do you people always talk about how horrible it is to hit children and how the children will always take it as a sign that violence is good and will turn out to be kids or people with mental issues? How do you know? Based on what do you say that it will happen all the time? How about taking it from us who have been hit and who know why we were hit and who know that we deserved it and who turned out to be good people in the end?

Just because you know of cases where the children “went wrong” or just because you found it horrible doesn’t mean that the rest of the world feels the same way or behaves the same way.

It works in some cases. It doesn’t work in others. Quit generalising already.

@Saturated_Brain To people who don’t see anything wrong with hitting in general, and especially hitting a defensless child, there is nothing that can be explained.

@YARNLADY Look, if that’s the way you want to go about this, I really don’t see how you can explain anything to anyone. All those who disagree with the stance that hitting in general is wrong have now been apparently written off as unreasonable. Come on…

@Saturated_Brain I can second that. I was smacked as a child as explained in my post above and I couldn’t care less about it now. I’m not violent, I don’t feel any fear, bitterness or anger towards my parents and, most importantly, I am aware of WHY my parents chose that way to discipline me and I appreciate it now. They NEVER abused or beat me but it was enough to make me think that I probably wouldn’t do what I did to deserve such a punishment again because it wasn’t worth it.

I understand that “time out” works for certain kids but my parents tried that with me and it didn’t work. Right from a very young age I was happy in my own company and loved to sleep, “time out” is no punishment at all for a kid like that!!!! I’m not saying that “time out” is a bad thing though, my brother HATED it

Sure, you understand now, but what were your feelings when the hitting actually occurred, if you remember? I’m fairly sure at the time you weren’t so reasonable.

All I can say is that I was spanked about 10 times as a child. It was always a formal, almost courtroom-like process, and while it hurt both my butt and my pride, it did no physical damage. It was also considered the way to do things at that time in the U.S., when Dr. Spock reigned supreme.

However it destroyed my relationship with my father for many, many years. I was extremely fearful of him and my first anxiety attacks happened when he would call my name and ask me to come to him because I was so frightened of him. It wasn’t until I was in my 40s (after Xanax and Zoloft) that I could relate to him as an interesting human being.

On that basis, I decided that when I had children I would never spank them unless all else failed. The psychic damage was incredible.

@tinyfaery As someone who was spanked (spanked, in my case, meaning swatted on the butt a couple times so that it “stung” but didn’t “hurt”) as a child, I can say that yes, I did not like being spanked, but I understood that whatever I had done was wrong and that I had been told that it was wrong and/or to stop doing it several times. You could even say I was expecting it, considering that I knew what I was doing was wrong, but kept on doing it. So while at the time I did not like being spanked, I still understood why I was being spanked. And guess what—I didn’t do whatever it was I was doing again! I also didn’t turn out to be an aggressive, dysfunctional person!

Now, if we are talking about regular beatings or even just spankings that are truly painful, I could see where you are coming from. But that’s not how it was for me, nor for my siblings, nor for any of my friends. And we all turned out perfectly fine.

If those of us who were spanked have all turned out perfectly fine, why do we spend so much time talking to invisible friends on the Internet?

@Darwin Holy cow…I didn’t realize that every single person on every single message board in every single country in the world was “abused” as a child…that’s some pretty heavy stuff. How about a massive invisible friend therapy session?

@Saturated_Brain Although there are people who turned out fine who were spanked, yes I turned out fine and I was spanked, was scared of my dad when he yelled tho and came at me ready to spank me, and yes there are the lucky ones who turned out fine, and then there are ones who think they turned out fine but have scars from it, and then there are people who are messed up from it. ” if you were hit as a child and you turned out fine, it doesn’t mean your parents were good, it means they are lucky” I believe that quote, your parents got lucky and got away with smacking you. I will never ever believe that hitting is ok, hitting is violence and to me it teaches violence in general and I think anyone who believes it is ok is unreasonable, including my dad, oh by the way I got spanked probably 10 times at the most.

@Frankie – You are your own example.

I have a different concept of discipline than some of you here. I also think that it would be helpful to have more good information about the effectiveness of various strategies in helping children discipline themselves. I can describe the former. I’m not sure how much I can help with the latter, but I will describe some of my theories about discipline.

I have two caveats before I start. First, I want to recognize that all children are different and that circumstances and personalities are different. My theories are based primarily on things I have read over the years, but also from my attempts to apply these methods to my own kids. I wish I could prove that these theories work by testing them on all kids, but, obviously, I can’t do that. Second, I recognize that this is a really long post. I hope it is interesting enough that some of you will read it through. I apologize to any who may find it dauntingly long. I care about this issue deeply and I don’t know how to compress my thinking any further.

Discipline is explained in Wikipedia as follows:
In its most general sense, discipline refers to systematic instruction given to a disciple. To discipline thus means to instruct a person to follow a particular code of conduct “order.” Usually, the phrase ‘to discipline’ carries a negative connotation. This is because enforcement of order – that is, ensuring instructions are carried out – is often regulated through punishment.

I believe that discipline is about instructing our children in the behaviors we want them to follow. I think it is best that they are able to figure out what good behavior is, even in situations they have never run into. I see children as our deciples, and we as their teachers.

Some people have a more negative view of punishment. They think of discipline as punishment. Some believe that punishment is an effecitve way of getting children (or anyone) to follow rules. From what I’ve read, the research suggests that punishment (and rewards) work temporarily, but they do not work as well in teaching lasting techniques for self-discipline.

I see discipline as an internal (intrinsic) mechanism. I don’t know what the word is for behavior that is performed either for fear of punishment or in anticipation of reward. The psychologists call those things extrinsic motivators, and note that extrinsic motivators are not as effective in the long run.

There are several methods that we commonly use in order to train children (and all people) in a discipline. First we teach. I think it is best to explain everything in exhaustive detail. We should explain what we want the disciple to do, and, perhaps most importantly, why we want them to do it. It’s exhausting, I know, but worth it, I believe. I’ve found that a significant investment of upfront time in teaching, saves a lot more time down the road in correcting.

When we attempt to “teach” via punishment, I think we are mostly teaching rule following. In using punishment to teach rule following, I think that the “whys” get left out far too often. Sometimes we resort to rules (without explanation) for expediency, such as when trying to teach a kid not to run into a street. Sometimes we use punishment because want the child to remember something and really impress it upon them. Sometimes we are tired and just feel like we are not up to explaining the whys and wherefores.

I believe that stronger and more lasting memories are created when we are scared or when something really unexpected happens. Spanking is scary. However, I also think that there are other, equally effective and less violent ways of providing an intense emotional association with the instruction. In my house, I have worked to make it possible so that all we have to do is raise our voices to show that some lesson is really important to us. Of course, if you raise your voice all the time, then children get inured to it. So some other form of attention grabbing must be used. I think that some people turn to physical violence to achieve this effect, because they’ve been yelling too much.

I think we can impress children with the importance of a lesson in other ways besides corporal punishment. One other way to teach an important lesson is to make an abrupt change in the child’s circumstances. Again, for me, the goal is to teach, not to punish kids for bad behavior. I think that time-outs can be very effective this way. Remember, getting a child to remember the importance of a lesson is what I think the goal should be.

When you put a child in time out, you are suddenly changing their circumstances. It doesn’t matter if you put them in a crib and they are laughing or playing. They don’t have to be hangdog or even repentant. All we have to do is show them something is important to us, and they will pay attention, even if it doesn’t look like they are paying attention.

I think that kids are learning all the time, even though it may not appear to us that they are paying attention. It is not necessary for kids to look us in the eye, or even to be sitting in a circle looking at us for them to learn. Kids can be running around, and yet, they are still paying attention. There’s research about this, although I haven’t gone to look for it.

I believe that learning should be not be presented as a punishment. If learning is punishment, then I think kids will often resent learning situations. Time-outs serve well for several reasons that have nothing to do with punishment. I guess I don’t believe in the concept of punishment. I believe in “correction.” I think that if you want to punish a kid, you might as well smack them around, but I have no desire to resort to punishment, and, after a learning period of some years, I think I am much better at employing a “non-punishment” attitude to my parenting.

As I said above, I believe that time-outs show something is important. However, I also believe that time-outs serve to discipline children because it immediately changes their behavior. It gives them quiet time. Often, when kids do something wrong, it is because they are totally involved in some activity. Kids get pretty involved in what they are doing and soon they forget about everything but the moment. They aren’t thinking about consequences any more. This is when rough housing can lead to injuries. This is when passion can lead to disrespectful behavior (non-empathic).

A time-out provides children with a chance to calm down. When my son would repair to a corner of the room for a time-out, I could see him visibly calming down after a few moments. At first, I used to try to make him face the corner so he couldn’t see what was going on, but he resisted this, and after a while I came to see it didn’t matter. What mattered was that he was taking time out and calming down. At some point he started saying that he liked time outs. This, in my opinion, was a good thing.

I don’t think it is helpful for a child to be angered by time out, or for a child to resent it. Resentment, I believe, is an obstacle in the way of learning. A desire to see a child suffer is the punishment mentality. I think it is actually good if they enjoy time out. It shows that they are appreciating the opportunity to move to a different state of mind. Time-outs can certainly be used as punishment, just like spanking is. However, using time-outs as punishment is an inappropriate, in my opinion.

Once again, I believe that it is best if kids can discipline themselves. I think my daughter was in time-out only once or twice, but my son was a different story. He had quite a few more time outs. At one point, he wouldn’t stay in time-out by himself. So, every time he left the stool, I added three more minutes. He actually got up to twelve minutes before he decided to stay there, and after that, he never left his time outs until they were over. Both of my children learned self-discipline, only one learned it a bit faster than the other.

Time-outs should also be used in an age-appropriate way. Maybe a one minute timeout for two or three year olds, up to a five minute time out for five or six year olds. After age six, it may be time to start thinking about sending kids to their rooms for an indeterminate time. They decide when to come out based on the criteria that they are ready to interact calmly, without yelling or screaming or crying.

I would caution all of us about arguing from individual cases. “I was spanked, and I grew up fine. I did not become a more violent person.” This may or may not be true. We don’t know the range of experience in the world, so we don’t know how we compare to the average experience. We only know a small sample—the people we know—and they are not very likely to be a representative sample.

In any case, the fact that we turned out “ok,” if, indeed, we did, is not a good way of arguing for corporal punishment. The question really should be what is the most effective technique that has the least cost. The cost to spanking is time and psychic and emotional energy. Parents say “this hurts me more than it hurts you” because, if they are empathetic parents, it is not enjoyable to hit one’s child. On the other hand, we can’t know who is hurt more, because that is subjective experience, so saying that is disingenuous at best, and a lie at worst.

If non-violent techniques work as well, why not use them? They certainly cost less, emotionally speaking. If these methods work better than corporal punishment, then it seems stupid to still use corporal punishment.

Part of the problem here is that to use non-violent methods of discipline requires parental education. Most parents use their own childhoods or the words of their parents as the source of most information about parenting. Some read books. Maybe a few take classes.

We have to understand the impact of various forms of discipline if we are to choose the best method. We have to understand what “discipline” means. We have to understand the goals of parenting and how effective various strategies are at achieving those goals.

I don’t think it is helpful to argue with parents or try to shame them into dispensing with corporal punishment. What can be helpful is providing information, as this question does. However it isn’t just the results of the research that educate, but the theoretical underpinnings for a philosophy of parenting that we need. We have to understand why things should be different, or we won’t change our discipline, either.

I hope I haven’t written this as if it is gospel. I don’t mean it that way. I have offered my theories about parenting. Some of them are research-based, and others are just my theories—the stories I tell myself to explain why I do things the way I do. I can’t prove my theories by trying them on every child we have. I do hope, however, that I have persuaded some of you that corporal punishment isn’t necessary.

@Darwin Saying that every person on Fluther and any other message board like Fluther is doing so because they are suffering from the negative effects of being spanked as a child is a pretty broad statement and a complete non sequitur. Perhaps it makes sense to you, though.

@Frankie – That is why it was written this way. And , you will note, it was a question, not a statement of fact.

In other words, “It was a joke, son.” – Foghorn Leghorn

@Darwin I’m glad it was a joke—I’ve read a lot of your posts from other questions and enjoyed your insight, so it didn’t really seem like you to post something like that and mean it; but of course, you never can tell.

@daloon Excellent post, I really enjoyed reading it, especially your concept on time-outs and how the child doesn’t necessarily have to show repentance during the time-out in order to learn a lesson. I do agree with you that individual cases are not representative of a whole, but neither are many of these studies—again, as (I believe it was) @galileogirl said, one size doesn’t fit all. I think those of us who pointed out that we were spanked as children and still turned out okay did not mean that we should be taken as representative of the outcomes of spankings, but more that there are people out there who were spanked, understood why the spankings happened, and didn’t turn out to be aggressive or have the other side effects that this study identified. I cannot speak for the others, but I certainly was not saying that all children had and will have my same experience. That would just be silly. I also still have issues with how the term “spanking” was used in the study…my concept of spanking could be totally different than the one that was used in this study, and it bothers me that they didn’t fully explain that.
Again, your insight on time-outs in particular was great—I remember when I was put in a time-out as a child, I would put a pretend-repentant face on in order to get out of it…I usually was truly sorry for what I had done, but if I didn’t look sorry I wasn’t allowed out of time-out. So I’ll definitely keep in mind that even if the child seems to be having fun in time-out, they’re still learning a lesson by being removed from the situation suddenly, as you said.

@Saturated_Brain Let me see if I have this straight – I say hitting is wrong, especially hitting defensless children, and you see nothing wrong with it. Your justification is the ends justify the means (you were spanked and turned out ok). I won’t convince you that any kind of hitting is wrong, and you won’t convince me it is OK to hit children, so, what’s left to discuss?

It truly saddens me how many people still think it is ok to hit children even though there is so much evidence pointing against it, beside the fact it should be common sense to know violence is not ok and any form of hitting teaches violence. I like what this girl said to a different question about corporal punishment, she said all these people who say “well the child deserved it” or ” it is discipline”, sounds just like what the men say who hit or beat their wives, but no one thinks it is ok to hit or beat your significant other, so why is it ok to hit children, it makes no sense.

In my child development class I took in high school our teacher told us of this girl once who never said anything and when she finally did speak up in class it was saying americans are barbaric because the country she came from would consider hitting a child like hitting your grandma.

I also have a story, I was babysitting once for my neighbors at the time about 4 years ago, me and my boyfriend, about 3–4 yrs ago or so. We were babysitting a 3,6,and a 9 yr old girl, the other 2 were boys. When we started babysitting before the mom left she told us to feel free to use the belt for anything we needed to on them. It disgusted me, when it was bedtime the 6 year old was laying down watching a movie and my boyfriend told him to go to sleep, he couldn’t fall asleep at the time so he got the belt to try to tell him he needed to at least try to go to sleep, he used the belt, then took the kid into the bathroom to have a talk with him. I sat outside outraged, when he came out the kid seemed better and my boyfriend at the time was telling me see I talked to him about it and he is fine now. I didn’t care, I told him how wrong I think it is no matter what it is for, and we argued about it, and I decided i didn’t want him babysitting with me anymore and he told me well fine but if you don’t spank them they will walk all over you, I said I still thought I could handle it. So the next time I was babysitting the girl asked me if he was coming that night and I told her no, she said “good he is mean”. Then the 6yr old boy asked me ” are you going to hit us” and I told them no and that although their mom and my boyfriend thinks it is ok, I don’t and I refuse to, and we had a good night and they were fine for me and loved me…..

@daloon Great answer. I agree and those are some interesting theories and make a lot of sense

No, it does not change my feelings about corporal punishment because my feelings about corporal punishment have always been the same and don’t seem to be changing anytime soon. I will not be using it just as my parents did not use it on me or my siblings.

However, this article brings up spanking 1-year-olds (who are babies) and toddlers. Somehow I don’t think most people do that, at least I don’t think they spank babies. I’m wondering if the data in this article would be different if it were talking about older kids who were spanked.

@DominicX My guess would be is that if it were talking about older ones there would be more who are spanked which to me is sad

If we lived in a world where the overwhelming scientific evidence was that physical punishment was necessary for raising a healthy well-adjusted child then I could grudgingly accept that smacking might sometimes be justified while resisting with all my heart the use of it on my own children and trying with all my might to find non-violent alternatives. For some bizarre reason I just don’t find myself as attracted as some people seem to be to the idea of hitting my own kids (perhaps I’m not that “well-adjusted”).

But the weird thing is that we don’t live in a world where the evidence is in favour of violence against children. At best it can be said that some studies find that light forms of physical punishment are unlikely to be to the severe detriment of children.

Whereas the majority of studies find results similar to those presented in this paper; which concludes that “strong evidence exists that the use of physical punishment has a number of inherent risks regarding the physical and mental health and well-being of children”.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WKK-48JSMXR-6&_user=651610&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000035238&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=651610&md5=fda1212a7d4d42364ff57b481ee74b3c

Furthermore, 24 countries have banned the use of physical punishment (smacking, spanking) against children, in the home and in the school.

The American Academy of Pediatrics, the Canadian Pediatrics Society, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, the Royal College of Psychiatrists and the Australian Psychological Society all strongly advise against the use of physical punishment of children.

So may I make the bizarre and radical suggestion that non-violence should actuallly be the default position of a loving parent, rather than the other way around.

There are a myriad of non-violent alternatives available for raising happy kids. The evidence is simply not in favour of using violence.

So if you don’t know how to do it without hitting, or your having trouble adjusting because your child is already accustomed to getting whacked, then perhaps you should get some professional help.

I’ll give up hitting my child when they pry my cold dead fingers from around it

@tinyfaery Of course I didn’t enjoy being smacked but I can’t remember it ever really hurting me (apart from my pride a little). I always got over it pretty quickly and as soon as I apologised to my parents for whatever I did to deserve the smack a line was drawn under it. My parents were very good in the sense that they didn’t hold a grudge for long. They had punished me, given me time to think about it and then we’d talk about it. The good thing was, my parents ALWAYS explained to me why that particular action deserved a smack and for that reason I was never unsure of my boundaries. I certainly didn’t commit the same crime twice!

I can understand why some people don’t agree with smacking children and like I have said before, there is more than one way to prove a point when it comes to children. I can only speak from my experience and the fact that everytime I got a smack for a wrong doing (which was not many times at all because my parents only used it as a last resort) I got over it pretty quickly proves that in my case, it did the trick. No emotional scars, no physical scars and I can honestly say that through out my childhood I never once doubted my parents love for me and for those reasons I will ALWAYS defend my parents actions.

So, @tinyfaery, in answer to your question, yes I can remember my feelings at the time and they were “Oops, I won’t be doing that again” and not “now I’m emotionally scarred for life”

Thanks for the article. It doesn’t change my attitude, however. I am Dutch and in our culture, corporal punishments are in general frowned upon.

I have always wondered why, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence hinting on the negative effects, American people are in general so tolerant toward consciously inflicting pain in children in order to discipline them, while there are so many better working alternatives (Please note that I do not want to imply corporal punishments work!). For some it is even a religious belief.

I think corporal punishment is in general a statement of a parent out of control that sets a bad example to the child on how to solve conflicts and deal with power differences.

It’s also illegal in Holland, isn’t it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Corporal_punishment_in_Europe.svg

Well, in general… yes.

In Holland, you may neither physically nor mentally hurt your children. Hitting them as a punishment will easily fall under that category.

In practice, some parents still give a corrective slap, but like I said, that is certainly not generally accepted behavior.

We currently have a minister in a orthodox reformed church in my home town under criminal investigation for promoting violence against children in a recent sermon he preached. He talked about sparing the rod is spoiling the child and told parents they should physically hurt children out of love. I cannot honestly say more about this without getting noxious, but trust me it was quite severe.

Interestingly, The Netherlands were rather religious in the beginning of last century. There is a documented story about a teacher that applied for a job and as proof of his ability he beat up a child that was misbehaving. He was hired and later it was found out, that he had paid the child to act and the child knew he was going to be seriously hurt. Strange world, isn’t it?

Very.

Thanks for the insights!

America is far behind in so many things.

@Facade I just read on a question on Yahoo that these people first spanked their children at 8 and 9 months, sickening!!

I watched The View today and they were talking about this. It was pointed out that Hispanics and Blacks use corporal punishment more often than Whites. No one liked that conclusion, but Sherri did wonder if that was because back in the days of slavery young children had to be taught to be obedient and not talk back, or they might be taking their life in their hands. That corporal punishment from a parent was better than being beaten by an angry racist. She wondered if this has continued through the generations as a form of shaping behavior, even when the threat of being lynched had gone away. I wonder more if it is related to education level and socio-economics over race? I don’t have any assumptions about that, it could be more cultural.

@JLeslie I watched too…Found it very interesting that on a panel of 5 (2 white/3black) all three blacks supported in some way or other spanking as discipline

@SpatzieLover but Latoya Jackson said that none of her siblings do it to her knowledge.

I think some of it is cognitie dissonance. People want to believe how they were raised was acceptable and that their parents made good choices, and certainly that they were not abused. So to make sense of that in their heads they want to believe how they were raised was ok. I am not saying that persoanlly I feel all people who hit their kids are abusive, so don’t jump all over that…just explaining the concept.

@JLeslie Yes, but she said she didn’t feel it “hurt anyone, yet MJ stated otherwise”

@SpatzieLover True. And, I think we don’t know for sure her siblings don’t hit their children.

@JLeslie I see what you are saying but there are so many things that my mother did while raising me that I don’t agree with and I don’t even try to defend her about those things. Surely if what you are saying is true then I would defend all her actions and think everything she did was ok as a way of dealing with it. I don’t think everything she did was ok and she knows that. But as far as the odd smack I recieved is concerned, for the most part I am proud of the person I am today and I genuinly believe that, amongst other things, the way my parents disciplined me helped shape the person I am today.

@JLeslie Yep. Only the kids of all those siblings could tell

Personally, I think until the social “norm” changes, we’ll still have a lot of “spankers” out there.

@Leanne1986 I had not the best parents. Which make me aim that much further in my parenting. I do not defend my mother’s “need’ to spank me…Instead, I see that she was flawed as a human in her parenting skills.

@Leanne1986 Don’t take it the wrong way. I am not saying that all people who had some corporal punishment administered are doing a psych job on themselves. I remember being spanked twice. It was never in a fit of rage. I was maybe 4 or 5 years old at the time. I think maybe my parents thought it was the right thing to do, so I do not feel emotionally scarred by it. But, I think if you ask my parents today they would be against corporal punishment. Part of it is how old you are, what I mean is when you were born, and what the line of thought was during your childhood in society. I would think there might be extreme circumstance where it might be acceptable even in my mind, but I think it rare, and generally I think it is a poor way to discipline.

@SpatzieLover We can all learn from our parents mistakes and I appreciate that I am lucky to be able to say that I do have great parents. Like I said there were things my mother has done that I don’t agree with but I accept that she is human. I think the fact that there is such a divide as far as the “to spank or not to spank” debate is concerned that all it really proves is that it all depends on the children and parents involved. I can say that I have no problem with the fact that I was spanked on the odd occassion because I was raised in a loving, firm but fair enviroment. I knew my boundaries and so it was my own stupid fault if I crossed them. I learnt to take responsibilities for my own actions from a young age. I appreciate that not everyone can feel as positive as I can about their parents choice of discipline and so I can’t deny that it will effect each child differently. However, I can’t pretend that I feel emotionally scarred about something that doesn’t even cross my mind most of the time which is why I believe that it is important to see this arguement from both points of view. The one that feels negative about it and the ones that feel positive about it.

I also think there is a difference from being spanked once because your parents were at their wits end and worried about your safety, versus using it as a common form of punishment. I did not have the threat of being hit hanging over my head. And I had fair warning the time I was spanked. I pushed and pushed. The link provided in the question is taking about consistantly spanking a few times a week, that just sounds insane to me. I mean truly I cannot comprehend it. The link says the toddlers perform worse on cognitive tests than children who are not spanked. I have to wonder if the parents who spank this often, have lower IQ’s themselves. @Leanne1986 as you said this type of punishment was not used often by your parents, so you are not similar to the children in the study from what I can tell.

People often pass on various standards via culture. Some of it has been deliberately introduced, and others just ended up happening. There has often been a distinction between the education people of working class backgrounds get, and what people of middle and upper class backgrounds get.

When you have class presumptions (usually based on socio-economic circumstances), the education system is seen as doing the best job when it prepares children for the jobs they are most likely to have. When the industrial revolution happened, employers needed employees who would be there on time and predictably. Prior to that, in mostly agrarian cultures, people didn’t need or have such specific needs for time. The trains changed all that, as schedules and manufacturing methods changed.

Anyway, people fresh from the farm had to be trained how to be good workers, and the schools were used to do that. The schools were training kids to be good (read compliant) employees. Thus teachers in working class areas treat students as if they are cogs in a machine and they have to be controlled.

Middle class schools were different and taught differently. Middle class kids are headed not for manufacturing jobs, but for mental labor. They need to be taught how to think. And, of course, upper class kids need to be taught how to rule.

These things tend to be passed down—almost as if through genes. Blacks were brought here as slaves, and slaved got whipped. As we know, violence breeds violence, and it would not surprise me if there was evidence that blacks have fewer problems with corporal punishment because that is what they commonly experienced for a couple of hundred years. This preference could well be a legacy from slave times.

In addition, the use of corporal punishment is something, I bet, that breaks down on class lines. The higher your class, the less likely you will use corporal punishment.

I know people really resent the idea that we have classes in the United States, but just because we don’t want it to be there doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Socioeconomic Status (SES) is pretty important in most social science literature, and in some cases, when you control for socioeconomic status, racial differences disappear. So it is entirely possible that “racial discrimination” can be explained by SES in many cases.

If this is all true, then both the education and class systems, perhaps in an informal or subconscious way, perpetuate ideas about discipline and the acceptability of corporal punishment. As better education permeates society, I expect we will see a reduction in the perceived need for corporal punishment (and for seeing people as mere cogs in a machine), and an increase in respect for people’s minds. This will be borne of necessity, since in the future, there will be no manufacturing jobs, and a huge majority of the population will be employed in intellectual industry.

Those without education will move into poverty, as is already the case. Interestingly, this may start to break down on gender lines, as men drop out of the education system at much higher rates when compared with women. I believe there is a very good chance that men will become the second class gender, not to mention being the whipping boys of society (if we aren’t already in that position).

@JLeslie Very true and like you I got a fair warning before I was spanked making it my own dumbass fault when I did get a spank. I also think it is very important that my parents ALWAYS made sure I understood why they felt it necessary to spank me.

Veering slightly off the course that this thread is meant,could i ask if anyone on here is into “spanking”?

@ASoprano I know parents that are “in” to corporal punishment, not time outs or discussion as discipline

Not to take away from @ASoprano question, because I think it is a good one…I just wanted to point out that millions of children do not receive corporal punishment (CP) and grow up to be good upstanding citizens. Even if it was perfectly even; kids who are given CP and kids who aren’t demonstrate equal cognitive skills, equal amounts of aggressive behavior, etc.; I can’t imagine that a parent would prefer to hit their child if they knew of other options. I’m talking conceptually, that they would actually argue for it. They might resort to it, because as stated above it gets a more immediate response, but actually prefer the idea of it? People who seem to argue for CP think it is BETTER in my opinion. That it is the only way to acheive the desired results, an obedient child. That is the mistake. And, even the word obedient is difficult for me to write, because I don’t think of myself as having been obedient, but having been a well behaved child, I think there is a difference.

@JLeslie Hearty laughter indeed ! Great answer

@YARNLADY I want to know based on what premise you say this. You state that it’s wrong to hit children as a blanket statement, but you have been shown that hitting children doesn’t necessarily result in people with mental issues. I will confidently say that hitting children unnecessarily is wrong, and I think that hitting defenceless babies and toddlers as a form of punishment is just proof of horrible parenting. My justification of my claim is that in many cases it’s probably because the parents don’t know how to apply physical discipline properly which results in these problems. Correlation vs causation.

It’s a risky business, punishing kids physically, and I won’t be surprised if it fails way more than it succeeds (as what @justus2 says), but the fact that it ‘succeeds’ in some cases already automatically shakes the validity of your blanket claim.

Do you understand now?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now… I believe that some will be interested to know that after thinking about this issue for a long long time, I have come to the conclusion that corporal punishment is not the best way to discipline children due to myriad reasons. Possibly wrong disciplinary techniques, improper procedure, the personality of the child or the mood of the parents bla bla bla.

@daloon raises a few very interesting points and I’m inclined to agree with them. I guess I might have come out ‘lucky’, for want of a better word, but if I use them on my children I doubt that they’ll face punishment the way I did.

Therefore, yes, there are other methods of discipline which are most probably much better than corporal punishment. Maybe corporal punishment is a relic of the past. Who knows? We’ll just have to see. But I’m quite inclined to think so, and unless I’m proven otherwise, I seriously doubt I’ll change my viewpoints (and how I’ll deal with my own children).

But if there’s one thing Fluther should know about me by now, it’s that I don’t like making blanket claims without having the proper evidence to back them up (that’s just irresponsible). That’s why I dislike it when people claim that something will cause something else. That just smacks of assumption.

@Saturated_Brain I believe @YARNLADY didn’t say much to back her answer up because it seems like more of a common sense thing that people shouldn’t hit kids. That’s just me. I was thinking more about this also and like @daloon has said, the definition of discipline is to bring to a state of order and obedience by training and control. which makes it to where when people say they spank for discipline they are teaching their children it is ok to hit.

@Saturated_Brain Hitting anyone, anytime is wrong, and if you don’t ‘get’ that, I can’t help you.

@Saturated_Brain – I am personally opposed to spanking because, although well-intentioned, spanking caused me emotional trauma and damaged my relationship with my father for many years. I believe hitting is never the answer when correcting children.

@Saturated_Brain i’m with you if no one ever got hit then no one would ever learn. After all we are only animals at the ned of the day… I’m just saying if you get it for some shit I bet you don’t do it again.

Hitting maybe wrong but i strongly think that it is a natural reaction to be violent.Even a threatening look can be violent or be percieved that way.
I think we are all capable of being violent and another argument is, you would not strike one of your peers so why strike a child that you absolutley adore?Why would you want to inflict pain on your child?Why leave an imprint of your hand on the back of your childs leg?
It’s violence!it’s abuse!It’s 2010,It’s wrong!!!!!!!!!!!

So guys.. Have we all come to a consensus? It looks like for quite a few of us we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

@ASoprano Good answer.
@Saturated_Brain You must be lucky then, I will never say spanking isn’t child abuse.

I am happy that we do not need to agree over this topic in The Netherlands.

Here the situation is clear: it is not only wrong to hit your child, it is also illegal.

@whitenoise GA

yeah the Netherlands is sooo the shit. Don’t hit your kids cause you’ll go to jail but smoke massive quantities of pot at a cafe and make your shitty kid come home to the TV! I wanna move there…

@madcapper I notice you have been outside your village.
Quite a internationalist, aren’t you. Get some info before you… :-|

@whitenoise yeah I’m quite “a” internationalist. You are quite the “English speaker” aren’t you? Fuck I better get some info before I… ?

@madcapper you got it… How’s your foreign language skills by the way?

Making many typos when typing Dutch or German or French, for instance?

@madcapper WTF is your problem? @whitenoise has international experience, that is one of the things I like about him, he has a wealth of information to contribute. I did not get the impression whitenoise was trying to say his country is better, just that he was glad about that particular law in his country. Why are you so defensive?

@madcapper I would much rather be in a place where you are allowed to smoke pot and not allowed to hit your kids, makes so much more sense than here.

hey what did he say back? lol

Dunno, but his profile seems down as well.

Hope he didn’t check out on my behalf – I guess I could have been a little kinder as well.

He just rubbed me wrong with ‘make your shitty kid come home to the TV’. A Dutch father’s sensitivity, I guess, coupled with hurt feelings for my country. sniff

Yea that was rude, I didn’t think you were harsh, you were right. I think he was rude, I would much rather have the laws where we are allowed to smoke pot and not hit kids, smoking to me isn’t bad at all, just makes no sense being allowed to hit kids and people actually thinking it is ok is worse to me.

@madcapper I hope you didn’t leave because of this. I hate losing people from my fluther. :(

Uh oh. I wonder why it got to him so? We all get fired up every so often.

@whitenoise I love your country’s laws. Both for humans & animals! I can only wish our country could be so embracing of dignified life

Thank you, @SpatzieLover

I very rarely spanked my kids, and only when they did something that was physically threatening for them, such as running out into the street. I never spanked them when I was angry, I don’t regret spanking them. I don’t regret that on occasion I would get a spanking when I was a kid. The WORST part was, Mom would tell us what was going to happen “When your father gets home,” and we’d have to wait ALL DAY for It to happen! He made such a big production out of it! The spankings themselves didn’t hurt at all. It was all psychological.

@Val123 Running out into the street was an example given from my class, by spanking your kids when they run into the street doesn’t teach them to be afraid of getting hit by a car, it teaches them to be afraid of YOU!

@justus2 Interesting. I spanked my sons for the same reasons as @Val123, just a few times during dangerous situations. They are 17 and 15 now and they certainly aren’t afraid of me and they never were. They also are not violent. In fact they have never been in or started a fight with anyone. They are very well behaved, kind and respectful young men. They do however know not to run out into the street. The same goes for me. I was spanked a few times as a child and I was never afraid of my parents. Of course there are stories of abuse with others, but the examples I and @Val123 have given are harmless and a “class” is not going to change my mind about the subject.

@justus2 I have never been afraid of my parents and I was spanked if need be. The only thing I became afraid of was doing the thing that I got spaned for in the first place which was, more than likely, for the better.

@justus2 Well, I disagree. I’d rather they had some discomfort at my hands, than to suffer severe injury or death by being hit by a car. At that age they have no clue, whatsoever, the damage a car can do to them. The lesson is, “OK, I know you don’t know why you shouldn’t run out in the street, but for now all you need to know is you’re going to get an uncomfortable spanking if you do.”
There is a difference between being “afraid of your parents,” and wanting to avoid the discomfort of getting swatted (which really doesn’t hurt.) As long as you’re fair and consistent, and don’t swat them willy nilly without rhyme or reason they’ll have no reason to “fear” you, just like we have no reason the “fear” the police as long as we’re keeping it legal.
@jonsblond and @Leanne1986 X2, everything you said.

I know people are very hard headed and can’t see how hitting a child is wrong, I do know me and my fiance and I are both against it. Good thing because I would never ever be with someone who would hit a child. To me spanking shows not enough sense to be able to use different methods so they resort to hitting, to me it is very sad. No one will ever change my mind, hitting=abuse and so spanking=abuse. Now the only reason I don’t really dislike people who spank is because they don’t feel like they are trying to hurt the child, therefore they are not doing what they are doing to be bad, they just don’t know any better. That is why my main belief is just don’t intentionally hurt anyone else. As far as cops go, I am scared of them even when I am not doing anything illegal because they are intimidating and out to get everyone, most of them, so therefore when you spank you are making yourself very intimidating to your children.

@justus2 I applaud you for not wanting to spank your children when you do decide to have children some day. That will be your parenting choice. Please don’t tell me that because I have spanked my children a few times is because I don’t know any better. I have successfully raised two sons and am now successfully raising a daughter. Have you raised any children yet?

@justus2 So many non-parents start out with that philosophy, “I’ll never spank my kid,” but when push comes to shove, often they’ll do even worse. My best friend stated that before we ever started having kids, but when all was said and done, I saw her slap the shit out of her little kids in total frustration. I NEVER, ever hit my kids that way. The difference was, though, I knew from the beginning that I would spank if necessary. She didn’t want to. So, she didn’t know what to do when her back was against the wall. I did.
There are far worse things than a controlled swat, justus. Far worse. You can never lay a hand on your kids, but damage them deeply with verbal abuse.
The only people who think they really know how to raise a child are people who’ve never had one.
BTW, you can raise a kid without spankings. But it takes a whole lot of time, energy, consistency and patience. You need those qualities in spades to do it right. Most people don’t have them.

@Val123

Heh. My parents said from the time they were teenagers that they would never spank their kids and they didn’t. They believed it was never necessary and they would never do it. And it happened that way.

So in other words, I’d like to think my parents were these super stellar perfect parents, but I don’t think they put scads and scads of effort into it. Some kids are simply different. Some situations simply work out. It doesn’t necessarily take overwhelming effort to raise a kid without spankings. My boyfriend was also never spanked as a kid. He’s quiet, nice, and sweet. A survey of my English class indicated 60% of the kids had been spanked or hit in some way by their parents and 40% hadn’t. Not one of the kids in that class was a junky or criminal.

Also, the example of another one of my friends: her parents tried out spanking when she was very young and were disgusted with themselves and vowed never to do it again and they never did. Worked out for them. So yes, plenty of people can change their decisions and stick to their decisions and have it work out.

@DominicX Well said. And, as noted, spanking was NEVER a first option! The most important reason that it worked, however, is that if I said, “You’d better stop or you’re going to get spanked,” they knew beyond a doubt that I would spank them. That consistency is really important. So, for every spanking that they got (probably less than 10 in their whole lives,) there were 500 threats of a spanking that worked just as well!
And you’re right….kids are different. You can’t raise them all exactly the same way.

@DominicX Trust me, your parents put “scads and scads of effort” into raising you. Spanking or not, parenting is extremely difficult even with an “easy” kid.

@casheroo

Oh, I’m sure they did. (Additionally, the had to raise four kids who were all around the same age). I’m just questioning how much additional effort not spanking really requires, which is what I was referring to when I spoke of “effort”.

@DominicX Well, for example. A kid does something after having been told once before not to do it. Takes a toy away from another kid or something. A swat solidifies the idea of “I better not do that again.” Other things you could do would be “time out.” However, I’ve found that “time out” needs to be repeated three or four or more times with absolute consistently before it makes the same impression as a physical reminder. Some parents tend to lose focus after the second time out, and just start yelling fruitlessly: “I told you not to do that! Why don’t you listen to me!” Because yelling is easier (and the LEAST effective form of “discipline”) than getting up, picking the kid up, and putting them in time out again. And again. And again. And again.

@Val123

Well, I don’t really remember ever being in a time-out when I was a kid. My brother did a few times if I recall, but not me specifically. Even so, with my parents it was more “if you do that, then you won’t get to do [enjoyable thing]”. That worked pretty well for me and my siblings. Also, as a kid, I hated knowing that my parents were mad at me or disappointed in me and that was enough to stop me from doing something.

@Val123 I was ready to be understanding of your point-of-view until you gave that example. So, if you are not around and there is no threat of being hit, what is to stop your child from taking a toy away? As I have said before I am generally not for corporal punsihment, except in extreme cases for the childs safety. I think it important for children to do things because it is the right thing to do, not because of the threat of punishment. I am sure there are plenty of kids who have been spanked who still grow up with strong feeling of right and wrong, but I cannot help thinking of the kids down the block who had the strictest parents on the street. They were very religious Christians, spanked their kids, had tons of rules for them, and their kids were WILD when out of their parents view. I honestly am willing to say that maybe their kids were born wild and the parents were trying their best to wrangle them in? But, maybe their kids were out of control when out of their sight because they knew they could get away with bad behavior. I don’t have children so I don’t like to guess what parents are dealing with regarding their children, but the neighborhood talked about those children.

@DominicX You said, “Also, as a kid, I hated knowing that my parents were mad at me or disappointed” That’s an excellent point. I had one child like that. Just have to look at her funny and that’s all it took to stop any behavior. My son wasn’t like that, but he rarely got into trouble. Just a good kid. My middle girl was a whole other story though!
However, the withholding of some future fun doesn’t work for two to four year olds. Maybe not even for 5 year olds. They are so that minute at that age. For example, if they act up at the store, you can not say, “When we get home, this is going to happen.” Thirty minutes later they will have totally forgotten what it was they shouldn’t have done. Another time a swat can come in handy. You have to address it right then and there at that age, not later.

@JLeslie Well, I didn’t use swats in that instance, because I was able to do the consistent time out thing. For one thing, I was a stay at home Mom, and raising the kids was what I did. It was just an example of how it can be a little more difficult if you don’t have the time or the patience to follow through on other types of disciplines.
But, by the same token, what’s to stop the child from taking a toy away if you’re not around to give them time out? It’s all about the teaching. In the beginning they’re externally motivated by whatever outside forces. They don’t do things because they’ll get in trouble, not because it’s wrong. Our job is to eventually work the kid into internal motivation, where they don’t do things that are wrong because it’s wrong not just because they’ll get in trouble. The internal motivation doesn’t start happening until they’re, IDK, 10? 12? (Just guessin’) And sometimes it never comes at all. Most folks who are in jail never developed internal motivation.
Oh, yes. Over reacting (being overly strict) will have the opposite effect every time! Not giving the kids room to breath, to make their own mistakes never allows the internal motivation to develop. I agree with you. It is a balancing act….

@Val123

Well, my parents didn’t hit me when I was 2–4 and I turned out fine. I don’t know what they did specifically; I don’t really remember much from that age. I would have to ask them. I also don’t really remember acting out in a store (I probably did—I just don’t seem to have much memory of it), but I’m sure that my brother did and I remember him doing it. But I know that he most certainly wasn’t hit for it. My parents were much more about talking (my brother was definitely scolded for it) and it seemed to have worked. Just because something doesn’t work for you doesn’t mean it doesn’t work for someone else. I think that is the fundamental problem with arguments about parenting. Everyone assumes their method works for all kids, but it’s simply not the case.

Ok. Here’s an example of consistency, and how important it is. I had a daycare. My son was about five and he was playing out back with the rest of the kids, while I did my thing around the house. I walked through the living room, and there he was in the time out spot. I said, “What are you doing? I didn’t put you in time out!”
He says, “Well, as soon as you find out what I did you’ll put me in time out, so I thought I’d get started!” (Wanted to bust out laughing, but I didn’t!)
He knew, beyond a doubt, what was going happen! I think that’s maybe a small beginning of internal motivation—you know what you did was wrong, impose the discipline on yourself.

@Val123 I think internal motivations develop with maturity (some children have it very young) but many corporal punishment people think they are “teaching” their children right and wrong, and I argue they are just curtailing a specific behavior at that moment. I actually think we agree on what corporal punishment achevies. Sad that it might be used because it is a short cut for the parent who has less time, I hate that reasoning.

I think the only thing this discussion is proving is that things aren’t always black and white and there is more than one way to raise kids. Being spanked obviously worked for me because my parents only had to do so about five times in my life so I was obviously a quick learner but by the same token, I have a great relationship with my parents and do not feel emotionally scarred or traumatised by the few spanks I got as kid. In fact I don’t think about it unless I am in a discussion like this. I also think I turned out to be a fairly decent human being.

@DominicX is also quite obviously a decent human being and he was never spanked.

What I do firmly believe though (and this is coming from someone who has never had kids herself) is that people who have never had kids should quit trying to tell others how they should or shouldn’t raise their own kids!

@DominicX I’m not saying everybody needs to start swatting their kids all the time! Some kid never need a spanking! My son, for one. I think I spanked him, maybe, five times in his whole life, and each time was because of thoughtless actions that could have cost him his life.
Check again with your parents! Not all kids are easy going kids like you were.

@JLeslie “Sad that it might be used because it is a short cut for the parent who has less time, I hate that reasoning.” I agree. But I don’t really know because I was, as I said, a full time Mom. I never had to juggle an outside job, and only have a few hours in the afternoon to spend with my kids. So much of that was guess. And some of it comes from hearing parents yell and yell and yell “I’m gonna spank you if you do that again!” and they never do.
But isn’t ALL discipline designed to “just curtail a specific behavior at that moment ?” Until they figure out it’s wrong at ALL moments?
Also, some adults have never developed internal motivations. It doesn’t come about naturally. Put it this way, ask an adult if they’d ever steal a car. If they say no, ask why. If they say, “Because it’s wrong,” they’ve developed that compassion and internal motivation to succeed. However, if they say, “Because I’d go to jail!” Well, they haven’t.

@Leanne1986 Excellent answers! ESPECIALLY people who’ve never had kids need to stop preaching child rearing techniques to those of us who’ve _sucessfully_been through the entire gauntlet!

Basically what I’m getting at is that I’m sure that if I had had different parents and we (my siblings and I) had behaved the same way, those different parents might have determined that we did “need” spanking. Our behavior certainly could’ve caused some parents to determine that we needed it. My parents (yes, that’s a pic of my mommy and daddy :) simply never decided that we did need it and were able to make things run smoothly and successfully without the usage of physical punishment.

And I hope no one thinks I’m preaching. I’m simply explaining what my parents did and how it turned out successfully without the usage of spanking (because that is possible). I never said anyone should or shouldn’t do anything, more that not everyone has to do a certain thing.

@DominicX Thanks for the pic!! They look like intelligent people, and that plays a role in it too. They look like the kind who follow through on what they say is gonna happen. They don’t look like they make empty threats. That’s important.
The thing is, I put a lot of thought into raising my kids. It didn’t “just happen.” There we times I had to change my behavior before I could consider changing theirs.

@Val123 Well…my parents explained to me why a behavior was wrong. Or had me explain why I was doing a particular behavior. Of course this cannot be done well with a 2 year old. But by kindergarten you can reasonably tell a child the golden rule. Share, because you want people to share with you. We cannot buy everything we want, because we have to save some money for the future. Stop yelling at your sister or mommy will go crazy and they will take her away to the mental hospital LOL.

@DominicX Of course! You don’t just discipline a kid without telling them why and better yet ‘splaining acceptable alternate behavior! Best thing, when they get to a certain age, and do something wrong, I’d send them into time out. However, the amount of time they actually spent there was in their control. I’d say, “OK, I’m putting you in time out until you’ve figured out what you did wrong AND can come tell me a better way to have handled that situation. If it takes you two seconds to figure both of those things out, you’re out in two seconds. If it takes two days, you’ll be there for two days. I’ll bring you food and a pillow.”
It’s was just miraculous how intuitive they became on really short notice!!
Mental hospital! LOL!

@Val123 :) They did, definitely.

@JLeslie Similar case with me. My parents never gave me that dreadful “because I said so” as a real answer. I even remember my mom talking about not liking that phrase.

“Because I said so!” Ahhh. Guilty! Like, “Mom! WHY can’t I go out with Fred??”
“Because you’re 13 and he’s 25.”
“What does THAT have to do with anything????”
“You could get in trouble over your head.”
“You treat me like a baby! You don’t trust me! WHY CAN’T I GO OUT WITH FRED.”
“BECAUSE I SAID SO!!!!”

@DominicX Here’s a good example of why timeout can fail:

********
http://www.fluther.com/disc/29120/does-anyone-have-any-great-disciplinary-tactics-for-stopping-your-child/

Here was my response: Um, I couldn’t help but notice that you said, regarding time out, “I’ve tried it and still do it sometimes”
You need to do it every time. Every. Single. Time. Over and over and over and over again. 47 times a day, if necessary.
Personally, kids are gonna try smacking their parents because they’re such physical little buggers. My kids only hit me once when they were little. One time. They were corrected instantly, no playin’ around, and they never did it again.
*******************
To me, DK, that’s a damn serious offense and needs to be stopped instantly. Because one of these days he’s gonna be 13, 14, bigger than mom, he’s gonna be not only hitting her, but shoving and cussing her if he can get away with it.

Because of the seriousness of it, my kids instantly received a hard, open hand slap on the back of their bare leg, where it hurts the most. They never did it again. I can’t imagine a parent preferring to allow that kind of behavior to go on and on, rather than having the child suffer a moment of stinging discomfort! No, it doesn’t “teach” the child to hit the parent. Kids are gonna try that, and not stopping it in his tracks sends a message, teaches them that it’s OK to hit Mom. Instant, memorable discipline stops them from doing it again, end of story.

@Val123

Yes, but as evidenced by the responses in that question, hitting the child for hitting isn’t the only way of dealing with. In other words, not hitting is not equivalent to doing nothing and letting it go on. Time out may not be the working option, but it is not the only alternative to hitting.

I can’t believe there is a debate going on about how it’s acceptable to use violence on children. If you do it, fine, justify it however you like. But you do realize that you are arguing for hitting children? Someone just asked me what the topic was and I said someone is saying it’s okay to hit kids and giving arguments against using non-violence when it comes to disciplining children. That was my synopsis. Are you okay with that?

@Val123 Real good, “don’t hit” so I am going to hit you. Oh yea makes perfect sense, I can’t believe you would actually spank a toddler. They have no idea what they are being hit for at 2 yrs old, all they know is their daddy who loves them is now hitting them. It is so hard to argue with people who believe hitting is ok, might as well hit everyone who makes mistakes, next time my fiance acts out of line I will just go smack him one, oh wait that wouldn’t work because he would get mad and defend himself, children are small and intimidated and look up to us, defenseless because if they try to defend themselves they get another smack or yelled at or punished. Hitting is abuse, especially a toddler.
@jonsblond Well it was a very nice way of trying to say that people who spank are ignorant, so I decided to say you just dont know any better, but this time I will just say I believe that anyone who spanks their children are ignorant. No I haven’t raised my children but I was spanked and hated it, not very much was I spanked but the few times showed me that I would rather die than to hit my kids, spanking simply isn’t an option as it shouldn’t be!!!!

@justus2 Wow…really?. People that call other people ignorant for raising intelligent, respectful young men… need to get a life. I spanked my sons a handful of times, never abuse. They both have a 4.0 in high school and have their pick at what college they would like to attend. They both know that they are loved by both of their parents because we pay attention to what they do and we tell them daily that we love them. I never once called you a name. Show some respect please.

@jonsblond I guess you are just ignorant about ignorance, it is not name calling it is just saying you dont know. It may have happened in past generations because not as many people knew any better. Now a days there are finally studies showing that hitting kids is wrong, which I am happy about. Although it shouldn’t take a psychologist or a study to show that hitting is wrong, it should be common sense, but then there are still these people with no common sense and that won’t believe the studies about it. Sad really. You can say never abuse, I believe that one hit is one time to many and every hit is abuse, just my opinion there, but to me it is more a fact that hitting is wrong. I am very happy that they are very smart, hopefully they learn in school that it is wrong to hit when they have children or already know it on their own. I am not saying that you did it to hurt them, I am just saying that knowing or not in my opinion it is abuse. This is on the subject of hitting, not anything else about love or anything, never said you didn’t love them or that they weren’t smart, just that it should take common sense to not hit because hitting hurts them.

@justus2 Calling someone ignorant is name calling. Again. Please quit calling me that. You have no idea what it is like to raise children and you have no right to call me ignorant concerning my parenting skills when you don’t even know me.

@justus2 Here’s an idea. Raise your kids the way you feel it is best and let other people raise their kids the way they feel it is best but do not tell me that my parents (and many others) were completely in the wrong for spanking their children when they felt it was necessary. Yes, some people abuse their kids and that is very very wrong but the type of smack my brother and I got as children was NOT abuse and I am very grateful for the upbringing I had. It sounds like @jonsblond and @Val123 have also raised perfectly decent, stable kids as have MANY other people by giving them the odd spank when they felt it necessary. Calling people that have raised perfectly decent kids ignorant when you have yet to raise kids yourself is ridiculous.

Ho Hum. The you haven’t raised kids so you have no opinion spiel is old and tired and not true. Let’s just all raise our kids how we like, except when it comes to giving flu shots. To some hitting is just fine, but not getting your kid a flu shot warrants calling CPS. I wish I could take back my question. So much ignorance and ego abound here that there is no learning going on here at all.

@tinyfaery Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just don’t call others ignorant for disciplining their children how they want to. Especially if it causes no harm.

That’s my opinion and I did it without calling anyone names.

1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.

There is the definition of ignorant for you jonsblond. It is not name calling, I feel you are unaware of the damage it can cause hitting your own children. You lack the knowledge of it on that subject. I think you are ignorant when it comes to hitting your own kids.
@jonsblond How do you know it causes no harm, do you know how your children felt AT THE TIME, did you ask them how they felt about it? Only they know at the time how it feels, they may not remember now or still feel it on hand, but no one really knows what it did to them. I know how I felt, it was like I wanted to run away to a place where my parents who love me didn’t want to HIT me, and I can say my opinion as much as I want to, you are ignorant about hitting children. Or you just want to take the easy way out as I stated in my comment to you. I also think I was very nice about my first answer here that started this, stating that people may not do it meaning to be mean but just because they don’t know any better, now I will just say it, anyone who hits their kids has abused their kids intentional or not. I hope spanking becomes against the law here someday.
@Leanne1986 I can say what I want to, and so can you. I feel she is ignorant and if you hit your kids then so are you, not name calling just saying you have a lack of knowledge or are unaware, also jonsblond didn’t say she gave the odd spank she said a handful of times which is definately uncalled for. I have taken classes on children and their development, I have also babysat, and I have a friend with two little sisters who we see all the time and so we consider them like our kids. Also my fiance raised two kids before we got together without ever hitting them, so that is wront to tell me just because I haven’t had a baby yet with my own dna in it that I have no right to say what I am saying here.

@justus2 I was spanked a few times as a child and it caused me no harm. My husband was beat as a child. We know and understand the difference between the two. I am tired of you calling me ignorant and I am asking you to stop. I am not ignorant when it comes to taking care of and disciplining my children. I’m done with this question. FYI- I spanked when they ran into the road, etc. Harmful situations just as others have described. Never out of anger. I then gave them a hug, told them I love them and explained what they did wrong. A handful = maybe 4 or 5 times.

@jonsblonde Interesting that you thought I was talking about you. I am looking at the whole thread. And honestly, you didn’t even come to mind.

This thread is going nowhere. Each side is adamant about their position, and no one is really listening because there is too much to lose on either side.

I will now be leaving my own question. Toodles…

@jonsblond Ok so you both were abused on different levels. I guess seeing as you can’t seem to get it what I am saying about lack of knowledge here I will just realize that I have said it enough to where you know what I think about you when it comes to hitting children, not about any other forms of discipline, I haven’t seen your other methods, but I know one method you used that was wrong. I hope that there becomes more and more of our children that start to realize that it is wrong and don’t pass it on, hopefully spanking becomes a thing of the past.

@justus2 I am not ignorant because I KNOW how it affected me and my brother. I KNOW that I wasn’t abused and I don’t care how much research you have done on the subject I won’t have anyone telling me I was abused just so they can feel right about their personal opinion. I also KNOW that different children react to punishments in different ways and what is right for one may not be for another and so I am happy to say that spanking won’t be the right thing for every child. However for my brother and I it was and by the sounds of it, my mother has far more experience of kids than the credentials you listed for me thinking I would all of a sudden agree with everything you say. Yes you can have your own opinion and say whatever you like but don’t call others ignorant because, based on their own experiences they don’t agree with everything you say.

I was not abused by my parents and no amount of you claiming I was will make me agree with you. Like you said yourself, no one knows but the kids how they feel but I can tell you how I feel about my upbringing. Whether you choose to believe it is up to you. Now unless you can bring anything else to this conversation other than calling others ignorant or claiming everyone who is spanked is abused and should feel hard done by about life, I too am done with this conversation.

One more thing, I don’t know if I will have children but regardless of my opinion on my own upbringing I am not saying that I will defintely spank my children as discipline. I would need to get to know my child first to know what the most effective form of discipline is for that child.

@tinyfaery I’d say the opposite is true. Your question was answered by all of this back & forth on here. No, peoples opinions were not changed by the article. They already had an opinion when they read it. Either it solidified their opinion, or it helped them find their counterpoint.

@Leanne1986 I never said you have to agree, I don’t expect you too. I just think any hitting is abuse, can you honestly tell me that if your boyfriend hit you for not doing the dishes for a week isn’t abuse? Same dam thing, only with a child the one you are hitting is a lot smaller than you so they have no way to defend themselves as easily.

So no real learning only the justification of our own opinions? I guess that’s a good thing. I suppose.

@tinyfaery unfortunately when it comes to parenting questions, this seems to be the norm

@tinyfaery It did help me to realize that there are more and more articles bout this subject being wrong. I also didn’t know before that many people actually hit toddlers, and then about a week ago I saw it, I was at a friends house and this 2 yr old was running outside and she started running toward the other building which was like 20ft away and he grabbed her arm and smacked her on the bottom, she started crying super loud and ran as fast as she could away from her mean daddy who hit her, and then because she was so freaked out she tripped over a rock and hit her toe really hard on it. At that moment I told her sister who is 9 that I had to leave, couldn’t see that crap.

Thank you @justus2 I think that’s noble. Just beware of judging others who you know nothing about. Use your opinion to change the world not become judgmental and ultimately hateful. (I do think that many times hate stems from judgment.)

@tinyfaery It was too late for me to edit, I had to walk up to the school to get my daughter. Only my first sentence was directed toward you. I agree that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. The remainder of my statement was actually directed toward @justus2.

=)

@tinyfaery You are correct, I try not to be judgemental, but it is very hard not to judge people who hit their own children and actually say it is OK.

And add to that, I am not saying what I say to be hateful, I am just opinionated and say it. that is why I clarify that I am not saying they are abusive meaning to be that they just don’t realize that it is abusive. In most cases though it is just lazy

@tinyfaery Also I dont judge people who do things that dont hurt others like piercings or tattoos, I don’t judge by looks like many but I do tend to judge by actions and hitting is an action that can be controlled, it is just their choice to hit their own children therefore it is too hard for me not to say that it is wrong and they shouldn’t do that.

@justus2 Domestic violence and spanking children are very different things because of the reason behind the action and the way in which the action itself is delivered (a smack on the bottom is certainly not a punch in the face) . I wouldn’t agree with a parent for hitting a child for simply “not doing the dishes”. However, if it’s to discipline a child for their own safety (which was the reasons for the odd spank my brother and I recieved as kids) then I feel it is very different to abuse. I am fine with the fact that my parents spanked me on the odd occassion I would not be fine with my boyfriend hitting me because there is no reason he would need to just as I don’t think it would be right to hit him because I have no reason to. However, if his safety was in question (which I doubt it would be seeing as, like me, one tap on the bum from his mother quickly taught him that trying to cross a busy street without looking was not the best idea) then yes, I would hit him if needs be and I hope he would do the same for me.

Domestic violence is about power and control, spanking children SHOULD be nothing more than discipline and even then I only agree with certain ways. A tap on the bum is fine, a slap across the face probably isn’t in my opinion (I probably should have mentioned that a long time ago).

Now maybe it’s time to agree to disagree.

@justus2 I don’t think that anybody here (at least I hope not) enjoys or looks forward to hitting their kids. It’s not sadism we are talking about.

Story:

My nephew lived with us from birth to 3 or so. My sister was 19 and neglectful and I took on many of the responsibilities of parenting him, including: waking up with him, feeding him, taking him out, loving him and being his caregiver. Both my sister and I suffered physical and emotional abuse by our father, and she followed in his footsteps quite adequately. I hated it. I fought with her and we even got into a physical altercation about it once or twice. But let me tell you, there were times when he was a toddler, when either out of frustration or fear I soooooo wanted to lay my hands on him, to grab him and shake him, and smack him on the butt. The feeling overwhelms a person and stopping at that moment and saying, no, I will do something else, is sooo difficult. I was able to stop myself, Why? He was no my child and I suffered abuse. But it’s not easy. Maybe those who are quick to hit should take some parenting classes.

Now maybe it’s time to agree to disagree.

Please?

@Leanne1986 I wasn’t talking about a punch, I was talking about a slap with the hand no matter where it is, you can stop a child from running into the street without teaching them that you will hit them. For a lot of parents it is for control also even though they justify it by saying discipline, because a lot of people need control and they can’t get it on someone who knows better so they hit children, I mean even a slap on the leg or face or anywhere from a spouse would be considered abuse, so why is it ok to hit a defenseless child in the same way it would be considered abuse on your SO? Makes no sense.

@tinyfaery I am sure it is difficult, it won’t be for me to not hit because the thought of hitting a child doesn’t even cross my mind no matter what they are doing, and if they ever got to the point to where they did stuff bad enough I would think it may be necessary even then it wouldn’t be because at that point it wouldn’t do any good for them.

@justus2 Let’s just give it a rest. I have explained the reasons for my opinions and you have explained the reasons for yours. We disagree. I have already said that spanking isn’t the only way to discipline a child and I have explained why I believe that domestic violence and spanking a child for discipline is different. Nothing else you or I say is likely to make the other change their mind so let’s just let it go.