How do you feel when someone questions, insults or makes a joke about a religious belief? please read the details before you give an answer?

I tend not to ridicule or question the beliefs of others no matter what the subject.

I tend to veer away from religious and political conversations, just for the fact that I know most people aren’t going to agree with me and vice verse.

I’ve recently converted to the mindset of “if it doesn’t affect my life at all, why should I care?”. If I tell you I’m Catholic, it has no consequence to your own life, so why badger me about it? If someone tries to “convert” me, I politely tell them “no thanks”, and go on my way. There is no point to start an argument with people about things like religion and politics. Never will the opposing sides agree, and it just makes life miserable. Again, my religion affects you in no way, so don’t even think about it.

There are a lot of questions today/yesterday about religion without being actually about religion

I pretty much shrug off any insult sent at me, belief system included. Of course, I think that’s mostly because my system is “I dunno”. If I was firmly planted into some set of “I do know” beliefs, any insult really would hit me harder.

I typically do surround myself, consciously and unconsciously, with people who are atheists, or agnostics. (Maybe it’s just that San Diego isn’t a very religious county?)

@Sarcasm San Diego isn’t a country. Although, it does mean whale vagina, so you might actually be right, lol. ;P

Good question. I guess I get defensive when someone insults my religion because it’s something I feel so strongly about. It’s difficult to love your God and hear someone insult the very religion you love, just the same as it’s difficult to hear someone insult your mom, dad, sibling, etc. I guess this is so because religion is a hot topic and whichever way you believe, a lot of times there are deep feelings involved.

Get over it. If somebody makes fun of something you truly believe, who cares? All that matters are your own thoughts.

No it should not be “above” being ridiculed. Although I’m sure there are plenty of nuts who think it should be, it’s just trying to push their belief on everyone that religion is more important than other things in life, right?

Insulting, ridiculing or belittling anyone for any of their beliefs is pretty lame. I think we should learn to be critical without resorting to taunts and name-calling.
On the other hand, if you can’t deal with

@holden whoa, oops.

I think it’s important to distinguis between the three words and attitudes contained in the question.

Questioning and ridicule come from different motivations. If someone is ridiculing what I believe, I think it reveals far more about the individual and their insecurities than it does about the belief system in question whether my own or others. I also think it denotes a degree of immaturity or uncertainty about their own positions. What I mean is that if someone has put in the thought, effort and research to develop their own position, they generally don’t need to elevate themselves by putting another’s ideas down. Ridicule indicates a significant degree of personal insecurity.

I don’t see any problem with questioning unless it’s an attempt to create a set-up for ridicule. I think that most people holding a religious belief don’t mind sincere questions. That’s how we learn. I have a lot of respect for those who have questioned belief systems including their own instead of just accepting what has been spoon fed to them by a particular belief system.

Probably humor is the one area which arouses the most passion and controversy since it is so subjective. One person’s funny is another person’s insulting.

But personally, the main criteria for me is the funny. One example of this would be the LOLCat Bible.

There are many of my Christian friends and colleagues who regard it as blasphemy, but I just immediately found it laugh out loud funny. It was just so cleverly done you couldn’t help but acknowledge that.

So having my beliefs questioned doesn’t bother me. Encountering someone who ridicules them let’s me know how insecure they are in their own beliefs and I just don’t have a lot of time and patience for dealing with them. Time itself usually takes care of it as they (hopefully) mature

And I am more than willing to laugh at any jokes, religious themed or not. The main criteria is the funny.

Some jokes are just anger or ridicule in disguise and usually not that funny and it’s usually obvious. But there are some gems out there which usually provide everyone a laugh and I love it. If there are some wet-blanket types who choose to take offense, that’s their problem, not mine.

I guess there may have been some who were offended by the question about what Jesus
would have on his iPod, but I thought it was cute and whimsical with no I’ll intent at all. It was just fun.

So, in short, I don’t think religion is in a class by itself and not fit for either questioning or humor. But if you’re going to joke around about what I believe or don’t believe, just make sure that’s it’s clever, original and funny.

Belittling mainstream religions isn’t something I’m comfortable with. Jokes or humor, maybe. Questions are good, because you learn something. Outright insults, however, I try to stay away from.

On the other hand, people who believe dinosaurs were friendly vegetarians who interacted happily with Adam and Eve…well, it’s hard not to ridicule something like that. If you think I’m kidding, google Creation Museum. I also have no patience for “religions” that vicitmize young girls, such as the polygamous cults. I will admit to mocking such beliefs, but I do try to keep it at a minimum in a forum such as this because you never know who you might offend. There could be a Flutherite reading this right now and thinking, “But of course the dinosaurs were all friendly vegetarians!”

I will stop mocking them once they decide to stay out of peoples bedrooms.

Until then I will snark away.

I think it’s great fun, as is ridiculing physical deformities.

It’s a long rocky road when people get upset by every single person that says something they find objectionable.

I might question your religious beliefs, just as I might question your political views, but I won’t insult you for them, unless you insult me first. At that point, though, I generally figure it is a lost cause and just leave the thread.

I do the same with just about any subject: your taste in clothes, your dislike of broccoli, your interest in music, and so on. But I question you respectfully. I generally start with “Why?” and not “That’s stupid!”

I feel disrespected when that happens.
And it just reminds me of the day when we’ll all know the truth.

@johnpowell they didn’t keep gay sex illegal, but rather the marriage. I’d argue they need to get out of peoples’ homes, rather than just the bedrooms. That may just be me, though

Religious beliefs, like any other belief, value, or opinion, are not immune from scorn. People take offense against religious beliefs more seriously because for some people, their religion defines their whole lives, whereas politics and other opinions may not be so attached to them.

My question is this: if you are truly secure in your religious beliefs, then shouldn’t you take religious-based offense with a grain of salt?

I don’t make fun of others views (maybe light-hearted jokes with people who share similar views as I do). I don’t understand how people can believe in that stuff most of the time (which is funny because I used to be a Christian). I don’t like bashing on any group, even if you believe in a flying spaghetti monster. The meanest I get is thinking that religious people tend to be closed-minded, and I get kind of mad when friends repeatedly put religious stuff in their facebook status that goes on my news feed, as if they need to keep shoving it into people’s faces (whether it is how good of a Christian they are or shoving it in non-believers faces, it still rubs me the wrong way). If I kept putting something like’ abortion is okay!’ in my status, it’d be spam. For some reason the religious stuff doesn’t get labeled quite that way.

@Sarcasm, I think ‘I dunno’ is the best way to go. I say I’m an atheist. I honestly cannot bring myself to believe there might be some deity out there. At the same time, I cannot prove it doesn’t exist, just like it can’t be proven that it does exist. I respect people who have such open minds to confidently say “I don’t know.” That is different from the people who just haven’t thought too much about it and are giving an ‘eh’ answer, though.

@Axemusica, @Sarcasm wrote county not country (though maybe it’s been edited).

@dee1313 yea, that was brought to my attention. I don’t know if it was edited before my post, but I was just syked to get to use that line, lol.

I try to be respectful of others beliefs, but sometimes, I get this urge to be ornery. That’s where Evelynism came from, the urge to be ornery to someone that decided they needed to get me to believe in their particular fantasy. I switched from Atheism to Evelynism because atheists are so despised, and Evelynists are so few in number that most people think we are just nuts. I can live with people thinking I might have a screw or two loose. Who knows, they might be right. }:^)

@evelyns_pet_zebra we’re right :P

I don’t usually go around ridiculing anything unless it gets into my face, then sometimes it just comes out. And so many religions have so many outlandish rituals, beliefs and requirements, it is astounding. And I know, someone always points out that when this or that was instituted it had a logical reason, but hey, no logic in today’s world but many still cling.

If the government would have told catholics they were not allowed to eat meat on Friday but the rest of the country could, can you imagine, there would have been a revolution, we are being discriminated against, etc. etc. etc.

I don’t mean to pick on catholics, I was raised that way so I know their craziness better than others, but the others all contain their own brand of madness.

Ridicule is a tool. So it can be used for good or bad.

I think that we have to accept that all ideas can and sometimes should be subjected to ridicule as soon as they enter the public space. Religion is just a well organized collection of interconnected ideas and I see a far greater danger in providing it with special privileges, then any potential harm inflicted through its ridicule.

That said, I think the reason why there is objection by some to the ridicule of religion is perhaps because faith in a prophet or deity (I would imagine) is probably a pretty hard thing to maintain at the best of times. And it is obvious that for many people their faith is a deeply essential part of their lives. It also seems pretty clear that for some people they really need to believe that whoever it is they decide to hand over their own moral compass to is pretty much infallible. The devout deeply want to be close to god, they deeply want to please god, they deeply want to do the right thing. To do so they believe that they have to follow the rules and regulations of prophet X.

So along comes the non-believer ridiculing prophet X or some aspect of the faith, and if they can’t defend their faith in any way that is going to hold water with the non-believer, they sometimes resort to either attacking the non-believer, or their motives, and usually they also challenge the very notion that “ridicule” is an acceptable form of discourse.

I think this has something to do with how the person ranks the defence of their faith relative to what is being ridiculed. For instance, if what is being ridiculed is some aspect of their religion that is pretty difficult to defend (the Catholic church’s handling of the condom and aids issue, or for instance the atrocious handling by several religion’s of paedophilia scandals), then they might just let the issue of ridicule go. But if it is some aspect of the prophet’s life or the prophet’s teachings, then suddenly ridicule can become “unacceptable” very quickly.

So my view about ridiculing religions is mixed. I think it all comes down to what exactly is being ridiculed and why.

So in short, when religions perpetuate ignorance, bigotry, or suffering. Open season.
When religion’s followers are subjected to bigotry, coercion, or suffering, then open season on their attackers.

It’s all about protecting people above and beyond protecting ideas, dead prophets or gods. Unfortunately, sometimes that can mean ridiculing ideas that people care about.

whether or not ridicule is the best way to bring about a desired change is another question, but probably once again comes down to the context of the situation

I do not appreciate ridiculing or insulting people. That being said, I do not understand how to insult a belief.

There are many religious beliefs that are utter nonsense, in fact most are from the perspective of anyone not participating in that religion.

As long as these beliefs are just silly and not hurting anyone, then let them be. If these beliefs do hurt people, for instance by promoting actions against basic human rights or creating in-group versus out-group hostility, then those beliefs should be fought. Not by insulting the persons holding those beliefs, but if questioning or ridiculing works, then question and ridicule them.

We need to continue to fight and question harmful beliefs and balance that with still the freedom and right of people to their own minds and convictions. The challenge lies there that the evaluation of whether something is harmful is subjective. Part of that evaluation should be whether or not those beliefs harm others than the one holding those beliefs.

Some beliefs are obviously harmful and let’s start with those. For instance the belief that a man owns his wife and may kill her if his honor is hurt. Or that homosexuality should be actively fought through violence or other offensive acts.

I try to stay away from religious discussion, other than reading comments. They tend to derail fast.

Well, if I am to be honest, I do sometimes say negative things about other peoples religious beliefs, but rarely to someone directly, except in forums like fluther, or if I am directly asked a specific question. Maybe negative is the wrong word. Among people similiar to me I will use words like ridiculous, illogical, etc. to describe some beliefs. I would never say to my friend that her beliefs are ridiculous, I would not use such a dismissive word. I have also been known to defend people’s ridiculous beliefs. For instance, I have several Catholic friends who think the Mormons are ludicrous. I would be the first one to point out that most religions require believing some things that make little sense, why is one more crazy or made up than the other? I really believe that if your religion makes you happy, gives you peace, then I am fine with it. When a religious belief is causing harm to the individual or others, than I think we should speak out; especially those within that religion who have a different interpretation. Malicious acts done in the name of God or religion need to be condemned.

I rarely hear people say negative things about the Jewish religion (maybe because people know little about it? Or, maybe because I am Jewish? I don’t know). More often I hear stereotypes said about Jewish people. They rarely offend me. Usually, I can turn the statement on its’ head or bring up facts to defend the Jewish people. Although, among us reformed Jews we do say things about some of the religious rituals that seem ridiculous to us.

When I feel offended most is just the simple awareness that Christian’s (I pick on them, because I am surrounded by them) believe that only they go to heaven, doesn’t matter if you are good, and live in a Christian manner. Like somehow God likes them better, I just cant wrap my brain around that. If there is a God I can’t imagine he would not love all of his creation. If you have three sons, and one walks to the beat of a different drummer, but is honest and lives with integrity, do you love him less?

And, when people assume atheists are immoral, less ethical, or less trustworthy I feel very frustrated.

@Facade, I can live with that, and besides, having a screw or two loose isn’t necessarily a bad thing, look at the fun I have. Can you imagine how dour and serious I would be if we tightened up those screws.

No way, man, get away from me with that Phillips head screw driver!

@JLeslie – You need to qualify your statement: Some Christians believe that only they go to heaven. They even think that Christians in other churches are sinners, too, or at least that they missed the Biblical boat and won’t get farther than Purgatory.

And of course, you know what they say about assumptions: When you ‘assume’, you make an ass out of you and me.

@darwin, I usually use “some” did I fail to? I did not mean all Christians in my statement above. I was referring to the Christians who feel this way, actually articulate it, I did not mean to imply that all Christians are the same. Thanks for pointing it out.

Ones insulting or making a joke of my beliefs generally reinforces my belief that i’m on the right track.

@BBSDTfamily I guess I have strong feelings for justice just as you have a strong love for god…that’s why I get just as passionate about standing up to homophobia and sexism, etc. I think all beliefs should be ridiculed no matter how much love…but I’m more of a logic over emotion kind of person…anyway, your answer made me think

@jeffgoldblumsprivatefacilities my thoughts do matter but the thoughts of others matter as well as people affect others and their hurtful ideas can harm those others and that matters to me as well

@The_Compassionate_Heretic indeed it is but somebody’s gotta walk it and it’s okay by me to be that somebody

I see it as an opportunity to try to understand how other people think and try to challenge my assumptions.

(my feelings = my emotions + my rational conscious mind)

What else can you do when people present you with ridiculous beliefs supported by ridiculous arguments and ridiculous evidence?

I’ve debated people who seriously believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old; that the entire globe was submerged beneath water; that the grand canyon was cut within a few days during Noah’s flood, and that the entire fossil record was laid down in the same period. Then, as evidence, they presented a table comparing a dozen different Great Flood myths which actually disproved their case.

@Zuma – Not all religious beliefs are based on ridiculous dark ages belief systems. Not all atheist arguments are based on rationality. The world isn’t black and white.

@mattbrowne I think you are being a bit patronizing. I don’t ridicule “all religious beliefs,” only those that are patently ridiculous, and then only after all rational arguments have failed. And I made no statement, expressed or implied, about the rationality of “atheist” arguments, nor anything that could be construed to suggest that I see the world in black and white.

@Zuma – How about paying less attention to the young-earth creation jerks? Let’s worry how we can shape a better future. There are a lot of educated rational Christians (and Jews and Muslims and…) out there with good ideas how we can get along on this small and limited planet without resorting to violence and how we can promote sustainability.

@mattbrowne Are you saying that if we ignore Born Again Christians and their loony beliefs they will dry up and blow away? I don’t think so. See my long answer here .

You should be able to question them as much if not more because of the size of what they are preaching. Religion tends to be so big that it needs to be true or your life might crumble out from under you.

Does this mean it’s open season on everyone? because then i can openly mock everyone who has to mention their “life partner”, people who dress their dogs up as people, people who ask stupid questions on Fluther, and the Dutch. yay me!

@eponymoushipster yeah those fuckers with ‘life partners’...don’t they get it’s wife OR husband..sheesh

@eponymoushipster I think we feel like it is “open season” on the fundamental/fanatic Christians when they say things that will affect others. If they want to put prayer into public school, dismiss science, sell false truths (like embryonic cell research is done on aborted fetuses) promote violence (a guy from MS said just the other day he left a church about 10 years ago, because they still promoted hitting your wife to keep her in line), and other ridiculous ideas I feel entitled to come after them. It is not really coming after Christianity, because I don’t think Jesus would promote any of those things, and I think most Christians are not fanatics. So, the Christians who have brains in their head, and are willing to discuss issue, and want to look at science, and be respectful of others beliefs takes it as though we are talking to them, they shouldn’t, we, or at least I, am not addressing them when I sound dismissive and frustrated. Gay people are not asking anyone alse to be gay, just to be left alone and given equal rights; I don’t see how we can put a gay person in the same category as a right wing born again Christian who gets annoyed, literally angry and upset, when the American President acknowledges that my country is not just a country of Christian’s, but of Moslems and Jews and Athiests.

@JLeslie i don’t see any quantifiers in the question by the OP. i see the word “all”. so we’re not just focusing on “fanatics”, but anyone with religious belief.

If Jesus were alive today, there is one thing he wouldn’t be – a Christian. -Mark Twain

@JLeslie What you said about certain things Christians do today that Christ wouldn’t support reminded me of that quote, and I think it’s true.

@deni if “Christians” do things that Christ wouldn’t do or support, say, support a political party or engage in war, then are they really Christians in the first place?

@eponymoushipster: Yes, it is open season on everyone, I said so.

@eponymoushipster You are right about the OP’s question, but I guess I had gotten away from the main question when I read your statment about “open season.” I have had many Christian’s tell me they feel like people think it is totally fine to ridicule their beliefs. I try to explain that it is not Christianity I have a problem with, it is the action of them thinking only their beliefs are correct, and wanting the whole country to live by their doctrine, which even Christian’s disagree on. I find it much different than say other minorities (which by the way, here in America the Christian’s have a huge majority) wanting to be able to live there life in peace with equal civil rights. I respect people’s beliefs, to get back to the main question, as long as they do not hurt anyone else.

@eponymoushipster No, but they call themselves that and they think of themselves as Christians, and they somehow believe that they are doing good in his name.

@eponymoushipster By the way if it makes you feel any better on this thread http://www.fluther.com/disc/55806/is-there-a-specific-yiddish-or-hebrew-word-for-food-that/ I go on about the illogic about some Jewish rituals like sabbath elevators, and how many orthodox won’t take home their relatives after a certain time from the hospital, the cost to society and my judgements I hold on about it. (I don’t know how to get it to jump to my one answer about it). I don’t only pick on the Chrsitians, I pick on my own.

@JLeslie oh, i’m quite familiar with the hypocritical attitudes of some observers of Judaism. I lived in a neighborhood in Chicago that was predominately Orthodox Jewish, and some of the things just were – wow. They observed many the festivals, etc. but no one could explain to me why no one offered animal sacrifices, as is commanded in the Law.

Also, there was one rabbi in that area who taught this: Under the Law, it’s forbidden to start a fire, travel beyond a certain distance, etc. However, swimming is not forbidden. So he taught that if you sat on a container of water while driving, you were not driving, but sailing or swimming.

@eponymoushipster Ok, that last one made me laugh. But I was not referring to hypocrisy, I was talking about how these beliefs actually hurt themselves and/or other people. Have you seen Bill Maher’s movie Religulous? The Catholics are the sanest ones in the whole movie.

@JLeslie yeah, because a constant and overwhelming feeling of guilt isn’t self-harming at all.~

@eponymoushipster Huh? what are you talking about? Do you mean if you go against God’s law?

@JLeslie no, i mean the guilt most of them experience.

@Zuma – No, we should not ignore them. My comment was about how much attention. See my long answer here

@eponymoushipster The Catholics? Catholic guilt?

@JLeslie – What? You think the Jews invented guilt? Well, maybe they had it first, but trust me, Catholics have a lot of guilt and so do Fundamentalist Christians of various stripes.

Buddhists don’t seem to have much guilt, though. It seems to be karma instead.

No no, I KNOW the Catholics have guilt. I just am not sure if that is what @eponymoushipster is talking about.

@JLeslie indeed it is.

I wasn’t sure because when one talks about guilt you could be talking about the Jews the Catholics, and I would assume other religious groups identify with the emotion. Lol. :).

No religion or lack therof is superior to another. It’s fine to have strong opinions, but ridiculing someone for their faith isn’t very productive for either party. Live and let live. I don’t agree with many religions out there, but I’ve nothing invested in them so it doesn’t affect me.

@stardust Live and let live are always good words to live by. But when people who believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old want to send you to prison for having an abortion, being homosexual, or smoking pot, etc. and nothing much else gets through to them, then maybe a little ridicule is in order to knock them off their sanctimonious high horses.

@Zuma I don’t think ridicule works with those people. I think they are too terrified so they dig their heals in.

@Zuma – Shotguns will get the point across better than ridicule.

@JLeslie Of course, it doesn’t work on them but it often works on the bystanders to the debate, the people who might otherwise be tempted to give them credence.

@Darwin Bite your tongue Darwin, they are the nuts with the guns.

@Zuma – Then it is self-defense. On our part.

I agree. Ridicule doesn’t work. Undoing the brainwashing is almost impossible. It’s like getting a drug addict off the drug. We need to focus on the next generation. Kids need to learn critical thinking and become self-reliant adults. Maybe a campaign like “say no to drugs” could help:

“say no to creationism”
“say no to dark ages belief systems”
“say no to superstition”
“say no to hate groups”

and so forth.

The slogan “say no to organized religion” would include all the liberal non-dogmatic forms of religions as well. Then we would limit ourselves to debates between educated atheists and educated Christians for example. We should have those debates as well, but they don’t solve the young-earth creationism problem.

@mattbrowne how would doing that be any different than the groups you’re targeting? That’s like saying “All us anarchists are getting together for a team building exercise.”

@eponymoushipster – The groups I’m targeting pose dangers to the future of humanity at various levels. Giving up scientific method and turn to creationism means the Earth can accommodate a few hundred million people. Not 6.9 let alone 9 billion people.

I’ve never heard anyone who believes in Creation claim the Earth can only hold a few million people.

Creationism is more a political term, associated with certain fundamentalist groups more than it is a proper moniker for everyone who believes in creation. A lot of people who come under the term creationist hold to things that aren’t even in the Bible (6 literal days, Earth created 10k years ago). Simply put – the Bible doesn’t say those things, so how can they? When it says “day” or “days” referring to the days of creation, it may have been a figurative meaning to imply start and finish. And since we don’t know the length of those days, we can’t say how long ago it was, or how long it took.

And, frankly, if it doesn’t say it in the Bible, and these “Christians” are saying it, then they’re overstepping. It’s the the same thing with Christmas – where does it say that date was Jesus’ birth? It doesn’t. But people “decided” to use it, for whatever reason.

Now, i’m simply putting this out there, because i’m sure you are a pleasant enough person to not lump everyone together just because of one group. I’ve noticed you mention “young earth creationists” et al numerous times, that’s all. Furthermore, whether you believe in the Bible, religion, Christianity, you can see how a group ignoring the true tenets of their organization can cause problems. If a policeman was corrupt and ignored the rules governing his job, you’d find that policeman to be bad, not police in general, right?

I guess you misunderstood. The principles which led to young-earth creationism are dangerous to modern societies depending on science and technology. Because creationists are still a minority there are still enough people who follow scientific method. When creationists use web browsers to access the web they have to thank the people who they fight against. But creationist thinking has to be contained. If it spreads beyond the US in significant I would get very worried. Ultimately the danger is to lose science and technology. If this times comes Earth won’t accommodate 7 billion people. That’s my point.

sorry, but I’m not offended by this kind of personal attacks – what exactly do you find unsmart ?

my aim was not to offend, but, as i said earlier, you’re being just as thickheaded and fanatical as any fundamentalist who’ll tell you “Jesus used the King James’ Bible”.

Saying you will “lose science and technology” because of this group’s thinking is the same as people in the U.S. who say that “Obama is going to round up white people and put them in camps” or the like. It’s unrealistic and just plain silly.

i get it i get it – you’re not religious, you’re an atheist, you’re a super smart brainiac, and all the people who don’t agree with you are wrong. gee, doesn’t that sound familiar

@eponymoushipster I too worry about the Religious Right’s attempts to impose Creationism on the rest of us. They have already attempted to do so and their methods were alarming, to say the least. This may not come about through a full frontal assault on civil society but, more likely, through the confluence of a number of other convergent movements that inch us toward a more coercive, punitive, and theocratic society.

Of course, we don’t have people with arm-bands goose-stepping in parades, or gangs of young men harassing women over the lengths of their skirts—but, if we did, it would already be too late. We are seeing mass political rallies that are little more than hate-fests, and the violent rhetoric being used to inflame crowds at mass rallies has only increased.

We have already had a true believer in the White House whose policies toward Israel and the Middle East were driven by an apocalyptic end-of-days set of beliefs—and that is primarily what got is involved in invading Iraq. In addition, we have five conservative roman catholics on the US Supreme Court whose views toward social justice and punishment bear a particular theocon stamp. There have also been recent revelations about a shadowy theocratic group known as “The Family”: which seems to have a particularly distorted ends-justifying-the-means take on establishing a Christian dominion.

The effort to undermine the credibility and authority of science is part of a larger program of getting people to abandon reason altogether—a program which, as you can see, is well under-weigh and may already engulf around 20% of the American public. It is easy to dismiss all this, until it affects you personally, which it does to all the people affected by California’s Proposition 8, and all the people who may well go without health care because wingnuts on the Radical Right are all up in arms based on fact-free arguments that appeal to their prejudices.

Who said the religious right represented anyone but themselves? If you’re worried about them, focus on the religious right, not religious people in general.

@eponymoushipster I am not focusing on religious people “in general.”

It should be pretty clear, if you read any of the links above, that I am principally concerned the alliance between specific elements of the Religious Right and the Republican party, who seem have convinced a lot of evangelical Christians to vote against their economic interests in exchange for access to enough political power to pursue some of their religious agenda.

In my view, the Religious Right, particularly the Dominionists, who see themselves as purifying the earth in preparation for the Second Coming, are being cynically manipulated into thinking that they are establishing a “Biblical” Christian nation only to discover, too late, that they have been paving the way for a corporate state.

@eponymoushipster – Well, there seems to be a first for everything. You’re the first to perceive me as fanatical in an online forum. Interesting. Back to our debate.

You find my arguments unsmart, and I was curious about your (smart) counter-arguments. I still fail to understand your argument why young-earth creationism poses no danger to technologically advanced civilizations. You offer an Obama comparison. The term ‘plain silly’ is not an argument, or is it?

I think young-earth creationists are wrong and I disagree with them. The Earth is much older than 6000 years.

Some ancient Greeks already knew the Earth was a sphere and were even able to determine the circumference of our planet with remarkable precision. They had great philosophers and scientists. What happened? A steady decline followed. It took Europeans more than 1500 years to rediscover their way of thinking. It’s called the Renaissance and it led to the age of Enlightenment. The witch hunts continued for a while but eventually reason prevailed. This example shows that advanced civilizations such as the ancient Greek have no guarantee of survival.

Here’s another example: the Islamic Golden Age dated from the 7th to 13th centuries. During this period, artists, engineers, scholars, poets, philosophers, geographers and traders in the Islamic world contributed to the arts, agriculture, economics, industry, law, literature, navigation, philosophy, sciences, sociology, and technology, both by preserving and building upon earlier traditions and by adding inventions and innovations of their own (Wikipedia).

What happened? A steady decline followed. No invention or significant discovery in any of the Islamic countries after the year 1500. The dark ages clergymen took over. We can still observe the effects today when fatwas are issued or when people fly planes into skyscrapers awaiting 72 virgins as a reward. What will happen if the dark ages clergymen of Christianity take over? Can we really be so sure reason stays in control? History teaches us other lessons. Nothing is guaranteed. Humanism is not guaranteed. Democracy is not guaranteed. We have to defend it every day. We have to be watchful. If young-earth creationists take over the US will become a theocracy. Separation of state and church will no longer be maintained. The Puritans in the US in the year 1700 believed that there should be no difference between religion and government, that the state and the Church should be governed by the same laws. Some of the religious right feel the same way.

If modern religion does only offers what the religious right has to offer we’re in trouble. Religious people should be offered something else. Michael Lerner calls this the ‘Left Hand of God’. Open-minded religious people capable of critical thinking should join forces with spiritually inclined agnostics and atheists because many values are in fact shared values.

Now if you call this approach thickheaded and fanatical, well, I guess I have to live with it.

@mattbrowne im sorry, but i really just don’t care.

i believe in creation, and i don’t think the Earth is 6000 years old. As I offered earlier, there’s no basis in the Bible to say that; it stems from a literal misinterpretation by people who don’t really know what the Bible says.

I don’t think “joining forces” with anyone would be of much benefit, because i’m fairly certain that i’d never reach the level of “open-mindedness” that you’d care for.

I’m sorry, but the US will not become a “theocracy”. I can guarantee this to you, regardless of what your concerns are. If you think it’s going south, i strongly suggest you go somewhere else.

I’m already somewhere else. In Europe. But I admire the United States and really like the country. The rise of the religious right in recent decades is a shame and I sincerely hope the trend can be stopped. There are serious attempts of the religious right exporting their body of thought to other continents including Europe.

I’m a moderately religious person. I believe in creation too. I see evolution as work in progress.

“No religion or lack therof is superior to another. It’s fine to have strong opinions, but ridiculing someone for their faith isn’t very productive for either party. Live and let live. I don’t agree with many religions out there, but I’ve nothing invested in them so it doesn’t affect me.”

Although on the surface this sounds good, the live and let live philosophy won’t work. This is the type of thinking that allows for cults, the rise of fanaticism, violent movements, etc. Instead, all of us need to apply some level of critical thinking in our lives. If we see something evil being perpetrated under the name of “religion,” it’s our duty to speak out. This goes not only for religion, but also for politics, business, etc..

Dave
http://www.greenmantshirts.com