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LostInParadise's avatar

Do you think that the 20th century physics discoveries are partly repsonsible for New Age silliness?

Asked by LostInParadise (32168points) September 22nd, 2009

Before relativity and quantum mechanics, physics, which meant Newtonian physics, was rather intuitive. Even if you do not know the details, it is not hard to understand the law of inertia or that forces act mutually on the bodies involved or that a constant force provides constant acceleration.

All of this changed with relativity and especially quantum mechanics. Even people who understand and work with quantum mechanics say that getting an intuitive grasp of it is impossible.

So what is the layman to make of this? If the basic laws of science strike scientists as flat out weird, doesn’t that open the door to all kinds of mystical interpretations or, perhaps more accurately, misinterpretations? People have a basic need to make sense of things and without the comfort of a Newtonian interpretation is it not understandable that people will seek out alternative explanations? What I find particularly irksome about New Age talk is the references to physics to support statements about how everything is energy or the effect that one person’s thoughts can have on someone miles away.

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49 Answers

MrItty's avatar

People have had idiotic superstitious beliefs since the dawn of time. The fact that scientists know more than they ever did before has no bearing on that. I don’t believe for an instant anyone who believes crystals heal diabetes (for example) are thinking of Quantum Mechanics. They might use their misinformation when questioned about how it works, but that’s after the fact. The idiotic belief comes first, the incorrect justification comes second.

GeorgeWood's avatar

We have not progressed too much from the Middle Ages, have we? New Age is Merlin.

IchtheosaurusRex's avatar

Unlikely. People who foster such beliefs have a terribly poor understanding of science, especially when it comes to heady stuff like quantum mechanics. The popular press isn’t much help, when you see proclamations of ’Earth-like Planet Found’ when they’re talking about a hunk of hot, airless rock that a virus couldn’t live on.

I think the New Agers are simply dissatisfied with the realities of science and look for the fanciful. They need to believe it’s more than it is, so they ignore the boring details that make the science accurate.

Harp's avatar

There might be something to what you’re saying. From the Enlightenment forward to Einstein, rationality had a distinctly different character from the various forms of magical thinking, even to the layman. The scientific view of the universe sounded utterly different from that of the prophet. The mathematical framework of science was within reach of even non-scientists, so the confidence developed that everything scientists said could be retraced by one’s own thought processes if one chose to do so. It was easy, in this climate, to sort out the rational from the mystical.

That distinction is now blurred in the public mind. What theoretical physicists say about the nature of reality sounds just as strange to the layman’s ear as does the metaphysical gobbledygook of the New Agers. And there’s no longer the slightest hope that the layman will be able to follow the reasoning of the one more than the reasoning of the other. He sees that even Einstein refused to accept the bizarre vision of reality that the next generation of quantum physicists were putting forward. Strangeness had been considered a red flag that one was dealing with the realm of magical thinking, but now both rationality and magicallity had their fair share of strangeness. One could no longer offhandedly dismiss the strange.

oratio's avatar

@Harp Good post, as they often are. Lol@magicallity.

kevbo's avatar

What a queer discussion.

Do we go back to Newtonian physics or water down quantum physics for everyone’s mental comfort? Maybe that begs a point that quantum physics needs to be taught more broadly so that it becomes more normalized in our minds/imaginations.

I would guess (since there seems to be a lot of that in this discussion), too, that conventional science isn’t rejected because it is boring. It’s rejected because it’s inhuman—that is, it sometimes denies the validity of human experience.

Regarding New Age claims that “everything is energy,” I can hardly see why this is worthy of consternation when, for example, Physical Review, a mainstream physics journal, published in Feb 1994 an article titled “Inertia as a zero-point-field Lorentz force,” which says basically that there’s energy and there’s energy that is being manipulated to give
the appearance of
mass.*

*Gleaned from pp. 32–33 of The Field by Lynne McTaggart.

And regarding thought transmission or what have you, what about the wads of government funding that have gone into such projects? Would they be funded if there wasn’t such a possibility?

I think the fallacy and perheps irksomeness with New Age thought isn’t that these things are untrue. It’s the belief that an uninformed or untrained layman can wield such ideas with any degree of control.

Finally, why shouldn’t religion and science converge? And why should science necessarily disprove religion? (I mean in a general
sense, not a particular religion.)

LostInParadise's avatar

@kevbo , I am not implying any suggestions as to what should be done and I am not saying here anything about religion. If you have not come across New Age nonsense, then you must be a recent visitor to our planet. I am just trying to understand why, in the most advanced nation in the history of the world, there is so much belief in such foolish things.

ratboy's avatar

Contemporary physics is New Age silliness.

ABoyNamedBoobs03's avatar

it’s just more complicated now. it’s not really silly at all. When a physicist says you can’t get a full grasp of quantum mechanics it’s because the theory is far from complete, mysticism doesn’t have much to do with it.

Ria777's avatar

responding to the original post: okay, you used a weasel word when saying ”partly responsible”.

to answer the original question (and as both a believe and a skeptic of New Age silliness), look into the history of it. someone (I forget who) described the modern New Age as “Theosophy plus therapy”, which I think nails it. Theosophy started in the late 19th century. even back in those days, Theosophists and occultists used the new-current scientific theory to justify their belief systems.

flash-forward to the late 20th century and the hippy movement and shift of values. if you want to pin blame (or give credit) to anyone, look to the hippies and the early ‘70’s fall-out. look to Alan Watts and the Esalen Institute. the specific linkage between quantum physics and the New Age came from a book called The Dancing Wu-Ling Masters by Gary Zukav.

Ria777's avatar

@IchtheosaurusRex: yeah, Earth-sized planet, more like.

LostInParadise's avatar

Before Gary Zukav there was David Bohm, who was a physicist who tried to blend science, art and philosophy.

Ria777's avatar

forgot about him. though I know of his work, I didn’t actually know when he started going into it.

XOIIO's avatar

there was one movie where these scientists built a computer that could predict the future, and it actually made us do it ex. It said there would be a plague, so we stuck all the sick people together. If it said there would be a war, we’d fight another country to stop it from happening. Anyone know what this movie is called?

Ria777's avatar

@XOIIO: if you really want to know, you should start a new thread about it.

kevbo's avatar

@LostInParadise, understood. I guess A broad answer to your question is that it’s probably more a product of the counter-culture movement in general than development in physics in particular (which I’d say more augments New Age belief). I’d also say that we humans are wired to believe “silly” things as this recent study suggests.

XOIIO's avatar

@ria777 I will

filmfann's avatar

Ya, things were a lot less silly when we only had 4 elements, and a flat Earth.

LostInParadise's avatar

Silly beliefs have always been with us, but in the past such beliefs were an attempt to bridge gaps in knowledge. It is my contention that New Age beliefs are in good measure a reaction against science and the scientific viewpoint.

Zuma's avatar

@LostInParadise What is it you are objecting to?

LostInParadise's avatar

A whole range of things. For starters, homeopathic medicine, parapsychology, the Law of Attraction and the power of crystals. There is a belief, whose name I can’t remember, that you can find out if something is good for you by picking it up and checking to see which way you lean your body. There are a whole bunch of things about thought connections like this: http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Messages-Water-Masaru-Emoto/dp/0743289803/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b#

My post was inspired by a free lecuture I attended given by these people:
http://www.intuitioniseasyandfun.com/ I was really annoyed when one of the people spoke about how she used physics in her practice.

mattbrowne's avatar

No, I think “New Age silliness” has more to do with spiritual voids.

Ria777's avatar

@mattbrowne: you know, though I disagree with you almost all of the time, you hit the ball on the target there. ching-ching-ching!

Zuma's avatar

@mattbrowne I agree.

@LostInParadise What is it exactly that you object to here, the New Age use of science as metaphor, or as a jumping off point for spiritual speculation, or the New Age yearning for spiritual connectedness?

Homeopathic medicine dates back to 1796, which doesn’t seem all that new to me. It simply looks like bad science.

Similarly, with respect to parapsychology, it is difficult to know what kind of claims are being made. I once chatted with a fellow who was a Christian missionary in Africa, and he was telling me about his experiences with an animist tribe he was living with. He said that they were as remote and cut off from the rest of humanity as it is possible to be, but yet he said they would occasionally have dreams and visions about things happening in the rest of the world that they could not possibly know about—things like disasters and developments that were too specific for them to concoct by sheer chance.

We are, of course, expected to reject such accounts out of hand, particularly from such a questionable observer. But, then, something like that once happened to me. A few years back my mother, whom I hadn’t communicated with for several months, called me out of the blue, saying that she just had a bad feeling about me and thought she had better call. As it turns out she couldn’t have been more right. I had just gotten out of jail not more than 15 minutes before, where I had languishing for the previous two weeks on a fairly serious drug charge. It was also after midnight, at a time she almost never calls.

Was it some kind of telepathic spooky action at a distance? Probably not, it might be just a more sensitive manifestation of the way we are normally able to mirror one another’s interior states. Perhaps I was overdue on whatever unconscious interval governs our communication. One thing I’ve learned from studying Sync is that there is hidden order in time-ordered phenomena. There are only six degrees of freedom between most people on earth. Perhaps there is a lot more coordination going on outside of our awareness.

I had some strange experiences when I was in prison in this regard. I was in this one dorm with about 300 other people where there were, at most, only two degrees of separation between people in this system. It was as if the collectivity had a mind of it’s own. It had a kind of calming murmur to it. But if you had a question about some little fact you wanted to know, they had an uncanny way of turning up a few minutes later. Someone would know someone who had a book and they would look it up. And it was almost automatic. Somebody asked me if I still had a magazine they had loaned me two weeks prior. I didn’t but I mentioned to someone at random that someone had asked me for it and within 10 minutes, the magazine was on his pillow.

It wasn’t a huge coincidence, but I mentioned it to some friends in passing and they started their own queries. I mentioned to one of them that I had gotten separated from one of my books because you are only allowed to bring so many in, and I had given my extra book to someone who got sent to a disciplinary wing. So the book could be anywhere in the 4,300-man prison. “Really?” said the person I was telling this to, “that wouldn’t be ‘The Elegant Universe’ by Brian Green, would it?” “Well, yes it would.” “No shit, I have that in my locker.” And so I was reunited with my book by what would seem like an improbable string of circumstances.

When you think about it, it wasn’t so improbable after all. The dorm I mentioned was a kind of sifting and sorting place where most mainliners spent some time before going home or moving on to other quarters. So, any free-floating books in the prison eventually make their way there. Then it isn’t all that far-fetched for the two white nerds to find each other in such a tightly-coupled social system. Race narrowed our searching down by about half, and anyone reading something challenging tends to stand out. He noticed me reading something else intellectually challenging and so struck up a conversation. It was only later that I got around to mentioning my lost book.

The Law of Attraction may work in a similar way. We are constantly putting out signals advertising who we are and what we are looking for. Repeating certain affirmations to oneself, like “I want to be rich.” (Or “I’m looking for a book.”) May very well influence the probabilities that you will encounter the people and resources you are looking for. Perhaps it is too strong to call it a “law” but there may be something to clarifying and broadcasting one’s intentions into a social network that influences what you get back.

Interestingly, one of the things that came up in that dorm experience was Masaru-Emoto’s water crystal experiments. Certainly, if there is any “mind over matter” influence, the place to look for it would be at the phase transition point where water converts to ice. Any slight influence at the crystal’s edge will be amplified as the crystal grows. Its a shame that nobody has done the rigorously controlled double blind studies necessary to rule out things like vibrations from the person’s voice or contact with the table on which the experiment is being conducted.

Supposedly, if you repeat the mantra “Love and gratitude” you get nicer looking crystals. It may well be that what the mantra actually does is put you in an agreeable frame of mind that influences the social network that surrounds the experiment so that people are simply more willing to agree that the crystals are more “beautiful.” I can tell you for sure that walking around prison radiating “love and gratitude” does produce interesting effects on people (calming to some and hostility-eliciting to others). This sort of thing, I think, warrants more systematic observation.

There might even be something to leaning a certain way when you pick up something you like. It may be something like the universal micro-momentary facial movements that are associated with various emotions. These have recently been popularized through the TV show “Lie to Me.” It may very well be that we are much more networked and tightly coupled as a species than we think. We find things like fractal distributions in the price of cotton spanning decades. We find that when groups of people are asked to estimate the number of beans in a jar (or the weight of a steer) the average of those estimates is almost invariably closer to the true value than any single estimate. There are all sorts of collective phenomena that haven’t been systematically investigated that may yet make sense of some of this “nonsense.”

On the other hand, I’ve met people who, when presented with alternative explanations, tend to reflexively pick the most spooky, magical and unlikely of explanations.

LostInParadise's avatar

@Zuma , I will agree with you on one thing. When we interact socially, the results are more than the sum of the parts. In the same way that there is emergent behavior in ant colonies, there are related things among people, only at a more sophisticated level. But there is no need for spiritual or mystical explanations for this.

filmfann's avatar

@Ria777 Hit the ball on the target?

Ria777's avatar

@filmfann: you know, as in bullseye.

Zuma's avatar

@LostInParadise Good, good. I have a strong feeling that what people feel when they talk about being “spiritual” has to do with “group effects,” such as the sense of self-transcendence, communion and a hyper-real sense of being part of something “larger” as their egos dissolve into a crowd. When you think about how liberating it must feel to lose one’s hyper-competitive, right and wrong-tortured self in a collective emotion, it is no wonder that people report feeling “spiritually alive” when they go to church. And, it does not necessarily diminish the significance and spiritual importance of the experience to state it in that way (although it kind of creepy to know that such experiences can be manipulated and carefully stage-managed for maximum effect).

LostInParadise's avatar

@Zuma , So we are not so far apart after all.

@mattbrowne , @Ria777 : But what is the cause of the spiritual void? I think the inability to grasp the basic laws of science in a simple and intuitive way is part of it. Newton was a very religious person and devoted the last years of his life studying theology. I can’t help but feel that his scientific discoveries provided evidence for him that there is a Creator who gave simple laws for the running of the Universe.

mattbrowne's avatar

@LostInParadise – There are numerous reasons for spiritual voids. One might be the inability to slow down and to fall prey to all sorts of unimportant attention grabbers. Time is money. Time in the elevator is best spent by checking your blackberry. Come to think of it, why not attend a meeting and handle all the new emails at the same time? Taking the sidewalk, hey, what are all the drive-throughs for. Listening to the sound of the wind rustling through the leaves? No, we got to check out the new album people on Facebook recommended. This is why we got MP3 players. We can shut out the environment. We can stay in our safe little world. Parents love computer games because finally there’s a good reason kids don’t have to play outside anymore so they won’t get hit by a car. Besides, computer games boost intelligence. Parents get restless when their four-year-old kid misses the opportunity to learn Chinese. No way he or she will get a job later in life. Too much competition. Time is money. Why waste time? We need to improve efficiency. And why miss an opportunity? Why worry about the smell of roses? Silly, really. Besides, there’s all this pressure. What would my boss think? Smelling roses are for people who have too much time. Thinking what our lives really mean? Better not. Makes people feel bad. Distraction is good. Keeps us busy. Burn-out? Won’t happen. Too busy to afford burn-outs. No thanks. Spirituality? Do we really need this? Besides, it might actually hurt our rationality. Fuzzy stuff. Often turns people into fanatics. No thanks.

Well,...

Well, actually… something is missing. But what? iPhone rings. Thank goodness, a distraction.

We are saved.

Zuma's avatar

@LostInParadise I’ve just started a book called The Left Hand of God by Michael Lerner (on the recommendation of @mattbrowne, I think) which discusses why we feel so alienated in a capitalist society.

We spend most of our working life trying to prove ourselves useful contributors to other people’s bottom lines, as opposed to living to contribute to living meaningful, purposeful lives which contribute to the common good. The “realities” of work throw us into dog-eat-dog competition in which everyone seems to be looking out for Number One, and defers and subordinates their own authentic enjoyment of life, to getting ahead in the endless pursuit of material stuff which promises but does not fulfill our authentic needs.

It is this lack of purpose and connection that leaves so many of us, religious and non-religious alike, with the feeling that there is a spiritual void in our lives. Lerner argues that this is what attracts so many to the Religious Right, even though the program of the Religious Right is one of authoritarianism, coercion, punishment, and purification of the world through violence.

Lerner talks about a “Left Hand path” of love and compassion that runs parallel to the religious violence traditions. And he talks about how to create a politics of genuine concern for your fellow man.

LostInParadise's avatar

@mattbrowne, This is off topic, but I agree with your sentiments. I wonder though to what extent that this is a generational issue. Are we old fuddy duddies for not getting worked up about the latest electronic devices? I don’t understand this constant texting that kids do. My idea of a computer game is Pong, whose simplicity I greatly appreciate.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Zuma – Just to let you know. I read your longer comments which I had printed out, as well as the Tegmark article and made a lot of notes. I could get back to you on the weekend. Should I post it in the Fluther threads or send you a private comment? I also started reading Deutsch’s Fabric of Reality. In addition, I read some of the personal biographies on http://www.mukto-mona.com (because the PDF was there) and some are really excellent, showing what’s wrong with (ultra-orthodox) dogmatic religion (stories of Jahed Ahmed and Ramendra Nath). I see a lot of similarity with what Michael Lerner is saying. The “Spiritual Covenant with America” seems like an excellent basis for the whole world. A similar approach, maybe a bit more limited, is Swiss professor Hans Kueng’s Weltethos project, see http://www.weltethos.org/dat-english/index.htm

mattbrowne's avatar

@LostInParadise – I’m not sure it’s off topic. To me New Age silliness as well as the silliness of dark age religions is a fundamental symptom of certain developments in our societies.

A generational issue? Partly, yes, I think. One factor is speed and accelerating change. Many people feel overwhelmed by information overflow and the rate of technological change. Another factor is choice overload, as described by Barry Schwartz in his book “The Paradox of Choice“.

When I was 12 there were 3 channels in Germany and during the week they didn’t begin till the afternoon. We went outside and were rarely bored. Today, there are hundreds of channels 24 hours a day. Same for radio. Well, thousands if you count Internet broadcasting technology.

When I was 22 and wasn’t together with my girlfriend we didn’t always have easy access to a telephone. You had to look for a pay phone when traveling. In Italy you had to buy gettoni and when dialing Germany the damned pieces fell through like a waterfall. Well, there were days without contact. And I think it’s a good thing for relationships. Being connected all the time created pressure and lots of additional attention grabbers. Time to say, no thanks. I use new electronic devices. In moderation. The off switch is the most important part of all devices. And you don’t have to boot a book or a rose. They’re simply there and you can read and smell them.

LostInParadise's avatar

@Zuma , @mattbrowne You may be interested in Douglas Rushkoff’s book Life, Inc http://www.amazon.com/Life-Inc-World-Became-Corporation/dp/1400066891/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253794909&sr=1-1 . It talks about how much less rich our lives are due to the domination of large corporations. It may be a little over the top, but definitely thought provoking.

mattbrowne's avatar

@LostInParadise – Interesting book. Well, sometimes choice overload isn’t created by corporations. If you look at the number of NGOs or charity organizations. How do I donate to ease the pain in the world? Hundreds of organizations and causes to pick from.

Zuma's avatar

@mattbrowne @LostInParadise I hope I am not speaking too soon, but despite our superficial disagreements, we seem to be in very strong agreement where our humanism is concerned. We should definitely explore this further, maybe do some reading in common, get a kind of samizdat going, and see if we can get something going that has an effect on the world.

The world is in such need of healing. The critique from the Right (sin) needs to be countered with a more coherent worldview, and a program (empathy and reconciliation) that can pierce the noise and indifference of day-to-day capitalism. Maybe we should start a thread, something like “Religion for Atheists” to explore what’s missing in the usual arrangements.

I saw Rushkoff interviewed on The Colbert Report and ordered one of his other books, Coercion, which promises to be an important book for my (our) purposes.

Are you guys aware of Shelfari? This might be a good way of sharing books. This is my bookshelf.

You know, if Fluther had a video conferencing facility where we could all drop in to a live chat room, and interact with one another in real time, it could greatly ease the burden of writing that takes so much of our time now.

Ria777's avatar

@LostInParadise: I have wanted to refute a couple of your statements about the New Age versus science for some time now and gotten led astray by other things. I still don’t have time today…

I don’t associate New Age thinking with a lack of something (like scientific knowledge), I think of it as its own thing. (give me a good place to sit down and use Wifi and more time and I will expound on this.) it came into its own because the facade of traditional religion began to slip. one anthropological theory describes magic as a appropriation of elements of religion (prayer, etc.) in a non-religious context. a lot of the New Age comes down to the practice of magic or a blend of magic and consumerism. New Age practice (at least on the level of the monied) depends on paying for expensive workshops and seminars.

as for Newton, he engaged in a lot of writing about alchemy and Noah’s Ark, did you know that? he also would attend executions to see the people he caught (in his position as the guy who officially detected forgeries), get hanged.

Ria777's avatar

believe it or not, as I said in that last post, I have a few more things to say. I also want to say that I do not disapprove of religion. many New Agers usually have a fragmented, superstitious and inconsistent approach to it and will believe whatever “makes sense”.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Zuma and @LostInParadise – I would welcome a joint exploration! What we have in common is the modern humanistic worldview and spiritual progressiveness. How about a Google chat session on a particular day at a specified time? My time zone is CET which is EST + 6.

I know Shelfari. My own book is in there including some reviews

http://www.shelfari.com/books/3751586/The-Future-Happens-Twice-The-Perennial-Project-(Future-Happens-T

but I haven’t really used it as social cataloging website. I should look into that.

LostInParadise's avatar

@Ria777 , I look forward to your comments. I have nothing against religion, though I am not a believer. As Galileo said, it is the purpose of relgion to tell how to go to Heaven, not how the heavens go. My objection to New Agers is that they use pseudoscience to come up with practices that are at best harmless placebos and at worst are substitutes for more more helpful things that can be done.

Zuma's avatar

@mattbrowne I’m not sure that simply speeding up our communications in a chat room would be helpful, since there is still the same burden of typing and composition. But, I would like to explore the spiritual crisis (or the assault on Humanism) Lerner speaks of—the me-firstism, the instrumental use of people, the stinginess and lack of compassion that seems part and parcel of material acquisitiveness, the estrangement of our own authentic needs, and the emphasis on apocalyptic violence, coercion and submission that seems to be emanating from the Right.

Let’s keep going here and on other threads. What do you think @LostInParadise?

LostInParadise's avatar

@Zuma, @mattbrowne I would like to continue this conversation. I am also a little uneasy about typing in real time. Is there some way of being able to add comments somewhere at our leisure?

Zuma's avatar

@LostInParadise Let’s just start an informal thread here on Fluther. Once the issues get firmed up, I could open my blog on Religion and we can use that as a forum to formalize what we agree on, and use it as a touchstone to involve others. Or we could start a joint blog. I am reading Lerner’s Left Hand of God at @mattbrowne‘s suggestion, and Matt is reading David Deutsch’s The Fabric of Reality at mine. Take a look at my Shelfari page to see what books we’ve read in common.

Another possible forum is Askville, which is organized differently from Fluther and is not so “stream of consciousness.” It’s format might be more conducive to longer, more detailed discussions. We could have an almost private discussion there if we word the question vaguely and limited the number and descriptiveness of the key words.

I think we agree that there are widespread unmet “spiritual” needs for things like a sense of moral connectedness, meaning, and purpose. The problem is that most current religions come with so much baggage that you are virtually required to jettison half of in order to find it’s vital kernel of truth. It ought to be possible to create some sort of soul-satisfying consensus that doesn’t insult your intelligence.

Let’s get to know each other and see where it goes. At some point, I would like to bring in @Harp, @dalepetrie and @daloon.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Zuma – I’m out of town this week and also quite busy. Can we schedule something this weekend or next week. Any online collaboration tool is fine with me. Can you set something up?

Zuma's avatar

Okay, but it will take a little while.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Zuma – I’m back from my business trip.

Zuma's avatar

@mattbrowne Good to see you back. I haven’t been feeling very well (been bleeding internally), so have been slow to set things up. It isn’t that hard, I just need to figure out how to do it without linking it to my own account (which so far has been automatic).

mattbrowne's avatar

@Zuma – Sorry to hear that. I wish you a speedy recovery! I’m about 40% into the Fabric of Reality. I like the term Cantgotu environments. Very clever! Intuitive proof for uncountable sets of virtual reality environments. Please let me know when you feel better.

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