Why is someone implying that you resemble the opposite sex and/or gender in 'manner and/or looks' one of the ultimate insults?

It isn’t to me, seriously.

@Noel_S_Leitmotiv why is that?

meh, I think there are a lot more worse insults.

To me, if someone appreciates something about me it doesnt matter how they describe it. It just matters that they felt that way.

I’m just and individual, made of many different components, some align with my gender, some don’t

I’m totally fine with that.

Well, I couldn’t be mistaken for a man if I tried. It’s really hard to hide the curves.

When I was younger, I had many guys tell me that I was more like a guy than a girl when it comes to thought process and relationships. I wasn’t offended. At the time, I took it as a compliment. Now, I see how it’s ridiculous.

There are no gender traits that
are specific to one gender. The very fact that a woman can be compared to a man demonstrates this.

My sex is female and my gender is queer. Really, everyone’s gender is queer. Really, gender is a social construct and has no basis in reality.

@J0E well that’s what I’m thinking to but it seems that people really find it offensive or hurtful if they’re told they look like the opposite gender

I think it is a socialization problem, similar to the one that tends to make younger people homophobic until they develop some friends in the gay community.

Some parents have a great deal of gender anxiety, and they pass that to their children in myriad ways; it’s not necessary for them ever to say anything on the subject. Kids are very sensitive to their caregivers’ anxiety.

When my son (who is now nearly 27) was in preschool, he often wanted to go dressed in his sister’s clothing. We never made a fuss about it, the school didn’t seem to make a fuss about it, and I think (though I am not sure) that he might not be upset at being misidentified by gender (very unlikely now, because he is tall, broad-shouldered, has slim hips and is very muscular.)

@tinyfaery well yes I agree with you on all that obviously but not everyone feels that way – people feel really strong about their gender identities being that of a woman or a man

A false identity.

@tinyfaery well you can’t really say it’s false if it feels real to them…same reason why trans people who feel like women are women and who feel like men are men

@tinyfaery you know I just realized that my argument wouldn’t work with me if it was about god…hm…I suppose I treat the issue of gender with more sensitivity than I do the issue of god in one’s life

But you yourself have said that the idea of gender should be removed from our psyches.

In one of my LGBT courses we had a few trans people come in to talk to us. Someone asked if gender wasn’t so stratified they might not have considered transitioning. A trans woman said that if she could have been accepted for what she was as a man, she would never attempted to transition.

I still say it’s a false identity. Even those who have strict gender beliefs can recognize attributes of the other gender within themselves.

I think men are still more trapped in their gender rolls than women. But most men, when they become fathers notice the “feminine”, nurturing side emerge. I think if we allow men to embrace who they really are, the idea of gender identity can change.

dont know and dont understand….i asked somebody once about such a question and got told that people think of masculinity as strong and femininity as weak….i have to admit in a certain sense of the word i agree…yet i have no real founding for this perception but i do think of very feminine women/men as needy and weak even though its often the opposite..i reckon its all some crazy shit buried in our psyche that inevitably strive to become the thing we feel a lack for in order to some way lessen our need for it

I don’t think it’s animosity. I’m a woman so I want to look like and be perceived as such.

@tinyfaery I understand my views but they’re my views after all and I don’t have the right to tell people to not live as women or men even though I understand gender is constructed…because they do not think it is is why and I, as an activist and as an ally wouldn’t be able to enforce my paradigm on anyone…I have seen what it’s like for trans people to want to be the other gender (even if, like you, I wanted to say ‘crap if only gender wasn’t so pick box A or box B then you wouldn’ thave to cut up your body’) and I know that it would be counter productive to their mental well being…I can both realize that it’s a construct and still see why it holds value to people

It’s insulting because it implies, in a sense, that I fail as a female. A female is what I am, and to be told I look like a man is an affront to all that makes me a woman. It means that straight men probably won’t find me attractive, because I don’t embody the characteristics that they are built to desire. Since I’m straight, this would be a bit of an issue.

Many people pride themselves with representing their gender.

I don’t mind when someone calls me “sir” when I am dressed in overalls. However, I am somewhat concerned about their grip on reality if I am wearing a dress, earrings, make up and heels. It don’t take it as a reflection on me, but rather a reflection on the someone. After all, I know I am female, and my husband has no doubt either, so what more is needed?

When my father was small he lived in South America, where all the children wore pinafores to school, not just the girls. His mother always kept a photo of him in his nice white pinafore on her book shelf in the living room.

This strong gender division is primarily cultural. It is very strong in some parts of the US (especially in high school) but less so in others.

@le_inferno – I can tell you from my mother’s, my sister’s and my experiences, that however masculine we might seem, none of us have had problems attracting males. In fact, my sister is gay and would much prefer men not be attracted to her because she has no interest in anything more than friendship. Do you consider someone like Katharine Hepburn to have failed as a female since she so often dressed and acted “mannish”? Spencer Tracy certainly didn’t seem to think so.

One of my former roommates was gay. She dressed in jeans and oversized shirts to hide her figure, had very short spiky hair. She wore foundation and reddish pink lipstick, but no other makeup. People often called her sir and it would make her cry every time.

I think most women (who want to be identified as women) want to be considered pretty regardless of whether the prefer to be considered attractive to men or women. Men are rarely pretty. It hurts to be told, even unintentionally, that you are not a pretty woman.

@Darwin I think your interpretation of the question is a bit different than mine. Katharine Hepburn is extremely feminine looking in her facial features and her figure, despite her choice of dress. She chooses to present herself in masculine ways. I interpreted the question to mean involuntary mannerisms and appearances that seem like those of the opposite gender. For example, if someone says to a woman: “God, the way you walk is so manly” or “You have a very masculine build” or “The shape of your face makes you look like a man,” she will probably be insulted. She didn’t choose to look that way or consciously act like a dude.

I get pissy when people consistently call my son a girl…but that’s my issue with people and them obviously being blind. But, I know he’s a pretty kid, he can’t help it. He looks a lot like me, in the sense that he has my feminine features. He’ll be a pretty boy probably his whole life. I think the fact that he has long hair makes it even more noticeable, but when we make it look short he looks even more like a girl because of his bone structure! I don’t think it’s a bad thing, but I do wonder if he’ll get comments often.

I have never been confused for a man. I’ve had pretty short hair before, but I guess my body and the way I move is just womanly. I’d probably be taken aback if someone called me Sir, or if they told me I looked like a guy. It’d just be more shocking than anything.

Uh, my fiance is blind. I’ll bet she never mistakes your son for a girl. Just sayin’.

@pdworkin I’m sorry, did I offend you with my comment?

No, but you demonstrated some not-unusual ignorance on a subject I know a lot about.

@casheroo Why do you get mad? People would only call him a “her” if he did indeed look like a girl. It’s an honest mistake.

@pdworkin @facade I’m sorry. I only say that because he is obviously a boy. He wears boyish clothes, sounds like a boy, and is just generally “all boy” as in gender stereotypes. That’s just who he is. So it’s annoying and frustrating sometimes when a kid in all blue or black, or brown obviously dressed as a boy gets called “she.”

It seems as if the only side of the question that has been addressed is when a woman is considered masculine. But the other side of the question has always intrigued me. A girl who likes “boys” activities is called a tomboy and that really is not an insult. But if a boy exhibits the so called feminine traits or likes, he is called a sissy or a name that has a feminine connotation, and that is definitely considered an insult. I was surprised to hear @pdworkin say there was no repercussion from his son going to school dressed as a girl, it seems as if it would have caused him to be teased.

Women are so often these days referred to as guys and it is no big deal but to call a group of men, girls or ladies is a total insult.

Never really gave it much thought from the direction this question has taken. I have always been a tomboy type but have always been straight, I never really liked being called a tomboy, I am just me.

@casheroo Oh, I see. I pictured a very gender-neutral child.

I don’t really get it. Speaking only for myself though, if I am mistaken for a guy I just know it’s that I’m bundled up in winter and the person made a mistake or they heard my voice (which isn’t soprano) and figured I was a guy. No biggie.

If I’m mistaken for lesbian by a woman hitting on me, I don’t mind. I’m not interested but it doesn’t offend me.

If someone tries calling me a lesbian in an attempt to insult me, I’m offended by the idea that they’d think that was an insult. Not offended by the statement itself.

I just read the end of your question. I rarely correct people when they get my sons sex incorrect. I just let it slide, I feel it’s more embarrassing for them to have made the mistake and there’s no need to point it out. I used to make a point of saying “Yes, HE is very cute” or whatever, when he was younger, but I got over that.

@rooeytoo you bring up an good point – yet girls are allowed to be tomboys without criticism but really only as children and maybe a little as adolescents – people are not so accepting of their girls as tomboys when they’re in their twenties and are supposed to be ‘clearly out of that phase’

@casheroo I think this is a really interesting take on things and can probably reveal some of your own relationships to gender and gender norms…clearly being ‘misidentified’ doesn’t bother your child, just you, so it’s all about your perspective

@Simone_De_Beauvoir It only bothers me when people do it towards my child. But, like I said, I don’t correct them so it’s not like my son hears me saying anything regarding that. I don’t have issues with it, I think as a new mother being constantly told how cute my girl is, was pretty frustrating.

@le_inferno – Well, I have a mirror and I use it. If you were to say I look masculine when I am wearing overalls with my hair tied back, then you would probably be right. I know what I look like, and I know I am not “pretty.” I look, in fact, like a shorter version of my father.

My sister also is quite masculine and never wears skirts because she can’t seem to walk in them in a way that works. She also prefers black and brown clothing (she is a professor of poetry so it may be an extension of that). In any case, telling her she looks like a man doesn’t bother her either.

However, it did bother my poor grandmother who had a son and was dying for granddaughters to dress up. She got two granddaughters, but neither of us what willing to undergo all of that torture. She always blamed our mother, even though we both look like my dad.

I certainly didn’t choose to look like him, and I must admit I had some fantasies about the time of puberty that I would look more “like a girl.” But I haven’t worried about it since middle school. My husband likes me and that’s enough.

So if you call me “sir” or tell me I look masculine, it’s no biggie. However, if you tell me I’m ugly, well, you are just rude and I want nothing to do with you.

I crossed dressed and wore heavy makeup sometimes in my twenties. I was wearing makeup when I met the girlfriend I had through that time. Sometimes I would be made up and wearing gothy gender neutral clothes when we would go out. We got a kick out of my being mistaken for her girlfriend or daughter (she was 11 years older than me).

There was a private kink club in Atlanta we would go to. there was no admission charge for females. It was fun not having to pay (we made donations).

Being mistaken for the opposite gender was something I embraced and enjoyed. Life is more fun when you don’t have hang ups about such things.

I’m fond of this expression: ‘More man than you’ll ever be, more woman than you’ll ever have’.

@ubersiren why? if gender is inherent, like some people think, it’s not anything to ‘work on’ right? so why be proud of it?

There are people in the world who are just proud of being pretty. Some of them believe in opposite marriage…. :^>

Gender is only an issue if we allow it to be.

@casheroo “So it’s annoying and frustrating sometimes when a kid in all blue or black, or brown obviously dressed as a boy gets called “she.”
and “I know he’s a pretty kid, he can’t help it. He looks a lot like me, in the sense that he has my feminine features… I think the fact that he has long hair makes it even more noticeable, but when we make it look short he looks even more like a girl because of his bone structure!”

I had a thought when reading your posts. Considering what you have said about your son’s bone structure and hair etc versus how he is dressed… is it possible that people may assume he is female from how he looks rather than how he dresses – how he looks being more significant for making that judgement initially.

For example, if you had a little girl and dressed her in boyish clothes, you may feel equally as peeved that someone called her a boy simply because of how she was dressed despite her bone structure and hair obviously looking like that of a little girl.

Just a thought. Hope it makes sense.

@Rachienz I had to read it twice, but then I got it lol. I understand what you’re saying.
Just for an example, these pictures are from a day where we got “what a pretty girl” over four times. This is what he looked like that day…
image one
image two

@casheroo I’m sorry hun, but I’d think he was a girl too.

@Facade Can you tell me exactly why? (I don’t usually ask strangers this in public! I think asking them would be rude lol but this is the internet so it’s different ;) Is it just the hair, or the face? Also, is it the yellow? He looks sooo cute in yellow! I refuse to dress him in ALL gender-centric colors.

I first glance I saw a girl. But when you actually look a bit more at his features, you can tell he’s a boy. Most people don’t pay much attention to things. I can see why they make the mistake.

@casheroo I showed my completely unbiased wife the two pictures and she immediately said boy. Just thought you’d like to know.

I guess my answer didn’t post…
@casheroo The eyes, the cheeks, the lips, the hair! He’s just gorgeous!

@Facade lurve for that lol. I know he’s feminine looking. That’s why I got over correcting people. It more confuses me than anything, but I know he’s a boy..so I’m biased. Also, the fact that it makes my husband insist on a haircut makes me hyperventilate! haha

@casheroo – he is a cute little guy and if there was a doubt in my mind I think the Thomas on his shirt would be a pretty good clue. Some people just are in another world most of the time.

The hair in my eyes would drive me crazy though, you could leave his hair long but have a more boyish hair cut, maybe like Steve Irwin’s kid, he is cute little guy too.

Nooo! I love his hair!

@rooeytoo The issue with the Thomas shirt…we were at a Thomas event, so every little kid had Thomas shirts on.

well that does make it less of a clue then, heheheh!

The hair is beautiful, but combined with the somewhat androgynous features of toddlerhood most people would think “girl.” I had some friends that insisted on letting their son’s hair remain long and uncut – it was truly beautiful with long, natural sausage curls – and if they ever got perturbed when someone said “she” in reference to him I reminded them of his hair. Eventually, they capitulated and let him have it cut. He was tired of beating up other kids at preschool for making fun of him.

Your son is adorable but, unlike my son at that age, his hands and knees don’t look specifically masculine. My son has always had big hands, wide shoulders, and knobby “boy knees” even when he was just a baby.

@Darwin Interesting thoughts! It’s nice hearing someones opinion. My sons hair is actually quite curly, but the front straighten outs especially after being in the carseat for long (it was a 45 minute drive to the place) so it’s usually curlier (I guess “sausage curls” is appropriate) but only in the back.
I find it funny you commented on his hands! He actually has quite large hands and feet(size 8 at 2yrs, soon to be 9)..and chunky hands, but definitely has his father’s piano fingers. You are right though, he doesn’t have broad shoulders..I didn’t think that would be noticeable at this age though. The men in my family are all quite tall and thin (my brother is 6’ and possibly 130lbs..my father was even thinner as a young man..when they hit 35 is when they start to gain weight but not dramatically) So, my son may have gotten those genes, but we won’t know until he’s older.
I also think the lack of seeing his rough and tumble bruises may also play a factor. He has quite a few from playing very very rough, and jumping from high places. He keeps me busy.

I appreciate the feedback! I do think that when we trim it, which will be pretty soon because it is getting the point where is just has to be done, that he’ll still look androgynous because of his facial features. He looks a lot like me and my brother as a child, and he has my feminine eye shape. Lets just hope if we have a girl that she is half as pretty as him. ;)

@casheroo He is definitely an adorable little guy and he actually kind of reminds me of how I looked as his age. He might have the blond gene due to the blue eyes, but I grew out of my blond hair. I have a red-ish auburn beard though, but that’s a different story. I could see how he would be mistaken for a little girl with the long hair, round cheeks and cherry lips, along with the long blond hair and blue eyes. I’d give him 2–3 years maybe sooner and he wouldn’t be mistaken as a girl anymore. Or, you could just give him a Mohawk, lol. I’m not sure if I was mistaken as a girl when I was younger, but I didn’t have long hair as a child and still have my cherry lips.

As for the question, It doesn’t bother me. I’m very sound with my sexuality and if someone did happen to mistake me for being “feminine” or more “girlish” it wouldn’t really bother me. I think my opinion might be a little biased though, since I exhibit the majority of traits of a man. Although, I did used to have long hair if you’ve seen the picture I posted and the only time I was ever mistaken for a female was from the back. Which I did find strange since I’m 6’2” have been since I was 16 and most women are not that tall, lol. It didn’t bother me though. In fact I’ve been seriously thinking about growing my hair back, but that’s just because I miss “head banging” when I’m jamming, especially now playing with my drummer. Them drums getcha move’n, lol.

@casheroo: Beautiful boy, don’t cut the hair.

@Axemusica The blonde came from me, and is probably not something he’ll grow out until his teens. I was a complete towhead, I’m talking platinum blonde for many years. And the blue eyes are from me as well. I just have brown hair now and no one seems to think an adult with brown hair could possibly have been a natural platinum blonde for their entire childhood lol

@casheroo yea, it’s hard for people to believe I was straight up blond as a child. I’d post pictures, but I don’t have a scanner, lol. My hair is so dark brown now that’s in nearly black in the right lighting. Although, my girls (some good friends of mine) were over last weekend from out of town and they said I was getting a little silver on the sides. EEEEK! I think I might be going through another phase of hair color now, lol.

@Axemusica – My niece is 6’ 2” so there are a few girls out there that tall.

@Darwin I know there is and that’s why I said “most women are not that tall,” but they do exist. :)

@tinyfaery
There are no gender traits that are specific to one gender.
That’s ridiculous. There are traits that are masculine and feminine and rightly so. For heterosexual people this is the basis of attraction. I am not attracted to an overly muscular woman with a deep voice who likes to wrestle and likewise I think your average heterosexual woman is not attracted to a man who is effeminate with a high pitched voice who creates flower arrangements and sobs while watching Terms of Endearment. That’s fine if that’s your thing but it is far from the mainstream so I think you can rightly say that there are very specific traits specific to a particular gender regardless of anomalies. Exceptions do not make the rule.

@SeventhSense all the traits you describe aside from being huge generalizations and a bit insulting are NOT inherent traits of any gender…they are socialized and reinforced

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I thought most of the things @SeventhSense mentioned were results of testosterone levels which make us either feminine or masculine? I don’t know much about this, so please correct me if I’m wrong

@Facade
Thank you. Gender non specific opinions are very threatened by gender.

@SeventhSense are you referring to my opinion as gender non specific?
actually people in general are threatened by gender non conformists or people that don’t fit gender norms…as evidenced by the fact that trans people are the ones being, oh you know, beaten to death for being who they are…

@SeventhSense : So, what makes something masculine or feminine to you has to do with what you believe the average member of the opposite sex finds attractive? How odd. I don’t know too many people who want to hook up with the average of anything. So, why would anyone care if they appeal to the average?

@Facade: Gender and sex are different things.

@Facade how horrible to think that what we are is only because of hormones…we have hormones yes…you and I may have some hormones in common but that doesn’t mean we behave as women the same way…I don’t even feel like a woman, you know this…yet you and I both have big breasts, curves and estrogen flowing all around…it just goes to show you that hormones can be used to explain too much away when they don’t actually affect so much of what is cultural

@cyndyh I forget that sometimes most times. Thank you education system
@Simone_De_Beauvoir That makes sense. But I was referring to the pitch of a person’s voice, they’re build, etc. Things that make a person look and sound a certain way, whether or not they felt that way inside. You’re right. Things are very much cultural.

@cyndyh
You know what I’m saying.

This is all a projection. If you belong to a minority that’s just life, but you don’t imagine that everyone has to view the world through your particular lens but you adapt to the culture at large. I am not saying that there is ever a reason to belittle, abuse or exclude someone but it will never be the mainstream.

@Facade yes and we find high pitched voices in men and low pitched voices in women too…yet, as you see, those are made fun of because we’re incapable of agreeing on a very simple fact that any two individuals may be more different than the two major genders

@SeventhSense in what way do you think you’re the mainstream?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
No again this has all to do with an inability to imagine a different point of view on your side but you would imagine that it is an ill of society. To the average hetero female, the Michael Jackson with the high pitched voice will not be an attractive partner whereby the Denzel Washington will be the bomb.
P.S.-I’m not on trial here

@SeventhSense Yes, but it’s cultural. The term “mainstream” irks me…

@Facade
Ok well it’s the majority and the basis of it is the most simple common denominator which is the continuation of the species. At its most fundamental level, a heterosexual woman is attracted to a man who can impregnate her and help her successfully see her child live and thrive in society and a man is attracted by a woman who is healthy and would make a good mother. and in all honesty that is why I find the two of you ladies so umm…fertile ok don’t smack me…it was a compliment. :P

Well how does it work if you don’t want to personally continue the species?

@SeventhSense : I think you’re doing the same thing you seem to be stating others are doing here. You’re deciding what view is acceptable while accusing others of forcing their world view. You’ve not only argued there are gender specific traits, but you’ve decided what they are (or at least given us a subset) and now you think these things will never change.

Maybe I read you wrong, but you seem to think I’m a part of some minority that “will never be mainstream”. It comes off sounding a little like you think you’re more-normal-than-thou. :^>

@seventhsense
not for nothing but there are thousands of women who’d want to get impregnaned by michael jackson

Lmao @Simone_De_Beauvoir that’s kind of a scary thought.

@rooeytoo
I don’t know. Join the vocal minority.
@Simone_De_Beauvoir
Fantasy and reality are two different things. I imagine that most of these women would have a different experience actually interacting with him. I mean the mother of his children was like the invisible woman after she was his surrogate

@cyndyh
Hey I’m not trying to propose a master race. And it’s hardly my decision. Look around at our actors, actresses, models, ideals and fashions. American Idol is hugely popular. America’s Top Model was like the highest rated show ever. I don’t watch any of that crap but apparently these are the motifs by which we create our world. But again I’m speaking strictly of Americans.

@SeventhSense : What people watch on television isn’t what you were talking about. You were talking about what traits are masculine or feminine. You haven’t really made your point.

More than television, they represent the collective. These are the basis of our ideals of gender and beauty. They were established by ancient ideals predating the Greeks and later Romans and are still our collective ideals. Hence this is a man and woman. These represent the top of the food chain…like it or not.

@SeventhSense notions of gender have changed throughout the times, there is no question about that

Ok in answering the first question, Why is someone implying that you resemble the opposite sex and/or gender in ‘manner and/or looks’ one of the ultimate insults?

My thoughts:
Because, if you’re happy with the gender that you are and you want to attract another member of the opposite sex who is happy with their gender, then to be labeled as your opposite gender lowers your perceived attractiveness to that opposite gender.

Strictly speaking from a heterosexual perspective.

@SeventhSense thank you! for god’s sake, lol

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
Well….

@SeventhSense no no no, no well….:)~

@Simone_De_Beauvoir
i still think you’re all woman :P

@SeventhSense well that’s quite invalidating but i understand why you need to state that

Didn’t mean it to be

@SeventhSense I understand but it is, to me

Sorry..

@SeventhSense you are completely forgiven, I appreciate you even saying that

I have never thought about this. I would be fairly horrified if someone thought I’m a male. I don’t know why, though. It has never happened.
I guess I shouldn’t care if they mistook me for a camel.

I think most guys don’t want to be thought of in that way, because they don’t want to be seen as “the weaker sex” or “feeble like a girl”, eg., “You throw that ball like a girl”, “You drive like a woman driver”, “You play hockey like you’re wearing figure skates”. To be like a female is to be ineffectual, so to speak.