Why do you feel the need to push your beliefs onto us ?

Because if there was a God he/she could do it him/herself.

Because the only way to combat real, certifiable, tangible evidence is with the shrill outcry of a trillion ignoramuses.

Maybe they want to help others find the same fulfillment that they have found. Why take offense unless someone is maliciously trying to impose themselves on you?

Obviously you don’t understand Christianity… Christians believe that non-believers are going to Hell. For them to not try to help you would be the equivalent of them not telling someone a bus is about to hit them. On the other hand, it’s not Christian’s burden to try to save the world, but it is our duty to try our best to show others the love of God. Some people may take it to the extreme which can push some people the opposite direction, but most people do not.

@sandystrachan, I don’t understand why this upsets you so much. I’m as atheist as they come and I don’t care one bit if a religious person tries to convince me to believe in God.

And it shouldn’t be hard to understand why they do it. If you think that unbelievers are doomed to an afterlife of endless torture, why wouldn’t you try to “save” them? It would be selfish not to. I’m not saying that such charitable thoughts motivate all religious evangelicals, but it’s not like we should hold it against them simply for trying to convince us of something.

Moreover, I think your attitude feeds into this idea that religion is a “forbidden” topic of conversation. Why is it okay to canvass for political issues and knock on strangers’ doors to drum up support—but not okay to do the same thing about religious issues?

It’s one thing if the evangelical/canvasser is annoying as hell and won’t go away when you ask them. But I simply don’t understand this thin-skinned reaction where any attempt to convert or talk about this subject is seen as evil.

@TheIncomparableBenziniBrothers I’m on some really awesome meds. You should try them. =)

(They’re not right for you? But they work for me so well!)

@Qingu Well said.

Because until you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior I cannot rest.

sarcasm

@grumpyfish I’m not interested but I appreciate you looking out for me – it’s a kind thing to do – if only more people would take the time to show interest and concern for someone who might be in need of help. Perhaps in a more perfect world.

I think the problem with this kind of behavior is that it is inherently rude because it is based on the assumption that there is something wrong with you and your life if you don’t believe in god. It implies that you are either: 1. ignorant, or 2. willfully evil. Politicians who knock on my door assume only that I am ignorant, a reasonable assumption given that there is very little decent political reporting. But honestly, if you ring my doorbell when I’ve just gotten my little one down for his nap, I assure you I will be angry whether you are pushing politics, religion, or fuller brushes.

I am Christian, and I don’t feel I am pushing my beliefs on anyone.
Not all Christians are dicks.

Oh, I forgot an important sentence in my last comment, and apparently it is too long to add as an edit. Insert after “decent political reporting”: It is foolish to pretend that atheists are ignorant since Christian ideas and symbolism are pretty much everywhere in American society. Not to mention that most atheists probably know more about the Bible and Christian theology than many Christians.

@J0E you rang?

People, in general, want to help each other. To spread the word of Christ, to save you from eternal damnation, that’s helping somebody pretty greatly.

For the same reason atheists do it.

Not all religious people are interested in pushing their beliefs on others.

@gussnarp is right. To think we don’t know about God and Christianity is ridiculous in America today…it is everywhere. I have a cross by the side of the road practically every couple of miles where Iive.

Plus, the people out there who want us to believe in God are generally preaching their own brand of religion, not just God.

Even if I believed in God I would never believe that he damns non-believers to hell if they have been good and moral their time here on earth. It makes no sense that the creator would do this. Could you damn your child to hell? Aren’t we all God’s children?

Lastly, along with @Qingu I don’t mind having a religious discussion about God, but I REALLY mind anyone who comes after children with their beliefs. Keep you prayer out of my school, and for that matter the bible, unless it is for a comparative religion class. And, when my child comes to visit do not read them a child’s book about God. (I don’t have children, but this happened to my neice when she was still elementary age at a neighbors home). Talk about breaking the Golden Rule, I would NEVER say to your Christian child, “your parents are crazy they believe in an invisible man who doesn’t exist.”

@Grisaille you are a genius – an easily amused genius – but a genius nonetheless.

@Qingu, you may not be bothered when others try to foist their views on you, but judging by your posts on this board, you seem quite intent on attempting to bring people around to your way of thinking.

Finally, an answer to this question: I don’t. If someone asks I am more than happy to share my Faith, but I don’t do it unless I am asked. I try to live my life in a way that reflects the beliefs of my Faith. I do think that some people are so excited and empowered by their beliefs that they want to spread the word in hopes that everyone can feel the joy they feel.

It gives the impression that one is better than the other and it helps ones ego tremendously to be judge and jury. On a larger scale if the one with the upper hand keeps up this attitude long enough he can declare a holy war against the nonbeliever just because they don’t agree with his doctrine.

The majority can state that they stand for all that is good and those that oppose are evil or uninformed and need to be straightened out.

What @BBSDTfamily said (in her first post)

I wonder what the stats are? If you talk about God and Christianity to an atheist how many convert? Like if you hit 100 people do you get 1? The stats for Prescriptives foundation when I worked in cosmetics was something like, for every 50 passing through the store 2 would sit in the chair and 1 would buy.

In my experience, most Christians hold their faith deeply, but consider it a personal thing and respect others’ rights to do as they please. Even so, either a large minority or a small majority do have concern for the souls of the non-believers and will offer to “pray for” someone if they are troubled, or often simply presume to speak with you as if it is simply assumed you are also Christian, but they are simply living their lives, and if they are doing anything “wrong” it’s as simple as not being fully in tune to other ways of thinking than their own, but it’s not malicious. Some within this group, a small minority are so moved by what they perceive to be His love that they want to spread the word and share this wonderful experience with as many others as possible. Then there is a group consisting of about 10 to 15 percent of the population known as Evangelical Christians, and they see it as their duty appointed by God to convert people who don’t believe. It is really only this last group with which I have any considerable problem.

I do believe fully in their right to believe what they want, and I can understand a desire to spread what they believe is a good thing. But it becomes disrespectful to push something on someone if they don’t want it, and it is very troubling to me when they attempt to affect political change as I believe laws of man should be based on empirical evidence and not unverifiable belief systems. I think whenever you try to impose your will on another person you are doing something, well, not exactly Christ-like.

But to address the elephant in the room, I know this relates to a question posted by @Seven about what the harm would be as a non-believer to ask the Creator to reveal the truth to you. Honestly, I don’t see the harm, but I understand that it’s really not a question, but a sales pitch, which is why the ? is now removed. But seriously, I see no harm in indulging the superstitious religious person who wants me to offer something to their God, OK, fine, I ask Him to show me the way. Hasn’t happened yet, I’ve tried it before, I’ll try it again, and I will do so with full sincerity in the knowledge that if He is real, I will listen to Him, if he speaks to me. So far, hasn’t happened, and I don’t suspect it will, but if something changes, I’ll let you know.

I agree with @SuperMouse in that I will talk about my faith if someone asks me about it and those who know me well are aware that I believe in God (although I wouldn’t call myself a Christian as such) but it’s not something I would ever try to force on others. Why? Simple. I don’t care what other people want to believe in (or not as the case may be) providing it causes no harm. So far there is no definate proof to say there is or there isn’t some form of higher power and so I figure, until there is some proof, there is no point in trying to convince other people that the God I happen to believe in is the ultimate God.

I usually stay away from any discussions involving religious beliefs. They seem to usually turn ugly rather quick. But it’s hard for me not to offer up my 2 cents worth. I don’t feel that anyone needs to preach their ways in order to be happy. A person’s beliefs are as individual as a thumb print. Yes, large populations follow different paths, but no matter, each individual path is unique. If a person finds happiness and enlightenment through Christianity, Buddhism, or Mormonism; it doesn’t matter, the outcome is the same. My own path to happiness is not like the next but that does not mean that I have not found what others have.

I feel that there is a right and wrong way to tell someone of your beliefs. You can have a discussion, accepting the other’s point of view and their ideas/beliefs while also being able to inform of your own; showing respect and acceptance. While another approach would be to take a “my-way or the highway” attitude and make the other feel as if they are inferior and create a very hostile situation. Attack a person’s ways/beliefs and they will instantly become defensive, show respect and understanding and your opinion is more likely to be heard.

I hope I have made sense; I’m new to this and am trying to be a productive member of this fantastic society! – LB

@ElleBee Welcome!

I wonder if the Christian’s on here who do not feel the need to proselytize (sp?) believe that non-Chistian’s can go to heaven?

@JLeslie I’m not Christian, but I do believe in God, do not believe in hell, and I believe everyone, Christian or non-Christian, gets in to Heaven!

@JLeslie Why would a Christian believe non-Christians (people who do not accept Jesus’ death and resurrection for their sins) go to heaven?

@SuperMouse But, like you said, you are not a Christian. Thanks for your answer though.

@Facade I think you answered that Chistian’s should spread the word so to speak. My mother-in-law is Catholic, pretty religious, but I don’t think she worries her son and I are going to hell. She would never discuss or try to convince someone to convert without the other person asking first about her beliefs. But your answer makes me feel like born again Christian’s really are judging non-Christians.

@Facade I’ll answer your question with a question. First, we have to ask what a Christian believes the alternatives are. Most Christians seem to believe that you go either to heaven or to hell. So, here’s a not entirely hypothetical question for you. A Jewish boy is born, he lives a good life, does good deeds, is friendly, violates none of the commandments, pretty much the poster child for the model American teenager. At 16 he dies of Leukemia, still a Jew. Does he go to hell just because he doesn’t believe in Jesus? If so you have just presented us with a fantastic argument against Christianity, if not, then you have answered your own question.

@gussnarp I wasn’t really asking a question, because I know the answer.

@gussnarp, you said, I think the problem with this kind of behavior is that it is inherently rude because it is based on the assumption that there is something wrong with you and your life if you don’t believe in god. It implies that you are either: 1. ignorant, or 2. willfully evil.

I don’t think that’s a fair assessment of evangelical religious people’s mindset. There are exceptions of course, but many evangelicals I’ve met are very nice people who “hate the sin, not the sinner.” There is a big difference between believing that someone is wrong and that there is something wrong with them. Any debate between two human beings is predicated on the notion that each person believes the other is wrong about something. The fact that someone thinks you are wrong about religion shouldn’t disturb you—it only bothers me to the extent that I think that evangelicals are wrong.

Also, I think we both agree that “pushiness” is bad regardless of the subject—religion, politics, etc. We probably disagree exactly where the line between “pushiness” and “acceptable behavior” should be drawn. But I don’t think that any debate, any question that presupposes the other person might be wrong, qualifies as “pushy.”

@Facade but @gussnarp is asking if you believe that good young boy, raised by Jewish parents, possibly not exposed much to Christianity is going to be rejected by God? How does that make sense? If the Jews are right, do you want to think you are just shit out of luck when you die? Or, would you rather think God understands your intentions and that you led a good life? Your way is so exclusionary.

@Qingu I would argue that what you have described is still assuming the non-believer to be ignorant. Surely, in the mind of the evangelical, anyone who truly knows and understands the message of Jesus would not continue to be an atheist. Therefore, as I said, ignorant or willfully evil. But we can disagree on that. As to your third paragraph, the question is addressed to “preachy people”, and while we may disagree as to what constitutes “preachy” we probably agree that it is synonymous with “pushiness”.

I would say someone is “pushy” if they continue to preach/evangelize even after you tell them you’re not interested.

@gussnarp just to add to your statment, let’s not forget that believing in God is not enough for the evangelicals, as we have seen, it has to be their brand.

@JLeslie, it’s not exactly controversial, even in mainstream Christianity, to believe that anyone who doesn’t have faith in Jesus goes to hell.

The central premise of the religion is that everyone is sinful to some extent—even our hypothetical Jewish boy—and that only Christ was perfect and sinless. And thus only through Christ’s magic sacrifice can anyone be saved from God’s punishment for sin, hell. “Works” alone do not get you into heaven. I understand there is some controversy (i.e. scriptural contradiction) over whether you need both or just plain ol’ faith.

@Facade You implied that you believe that anyone who does not believe in Jesus will go to hell. I ask my question partly to find out if that is what you really mean, and partly as a thought experiment so that you can look on that belief from a different perspective, but mainly, because it isn’t really hypothetical. I knew just such a kid, and I knew that my religion consigned him to hell, and that was the beginning of my becoming an atheist.

@JLeslie Yes, it is exclusionary, but that’s the way it is.
@gussnarp Unless he suddenly declares Christian beliefs on his death bed, then yes.

With that said, I’m done with this convo. Y’all have a good day.

@Qingu But surely this raises serious issues with Christianity. If in fact, all of us is born doomed to hell unless we believe in Jesus, and if God is all knowing and all powerful, then what kind of God creates a world in which he knows that the vast majority of the life he has created will spend an eternity in horrifying torment?

@gussnarp, yeah. I don’t know why this should surprise anyone though. I mean, read the Bible. God “takes pleasure at your ruin and destruction” (Dt. 28:63). He is the only deity I know of to command his followers to commit genocide (Dt. 20:16). Jesus, in his parables, repeatedly compares your relationship to God as a slave’s relationship to his master.

The Christian god “loves” you in the same way that an abusive husband loves his wife, showing it by offering to drive her to the hospital after breaking her nose. That certainly explains the nature of people like @Facade‘s relationship with the Christian god; “proving” that he screws over innocent Jews and native Americans has about the same effect as trying to convince a battered wife that her husband is a dick.

woah, ton of responses. let’s get right in it.

This is in an attempt to answer some of the questions that were presented earlier by some of you.

Faith relies on compulsion and subservience for its survival, constantly threatening violence against the non-believer for his pitiful, worthless and immoral existence. Faith in itself cannot exist without the promotion of ignorance to the masses and is – in itself – polluting the knowledge of humankind. It effectively – and quite literally – tells followers to block out all reason in lieu of an omnipotent force that may or may not be there. Faith is always blind, and teaches those to constantly combat proof, certifiable evidence, reasoned logic and physical substantiation with dogma and scripture.

Which leads me to the next point. I’ve heard dogma and scripture likened to the invisible man. To paraphrase, ” propagators of faith are dressing the invisible man with dogma and scripture; once he’s got some clothes on, we can see him! Of course, you can’t see him, we only see the clothes. But that in itself is the problem; we’ve become so obsessed with the damn dressings that we’ve forgotten if there was anyone there in the first place.”

These two ornamental, worthless accessories of faith are inherently flawed and are designed to be anamorphic; bendable to any conceivable situation the user desires. This may not in essence be a case against people who promote faith, but is a damn fine example as to why faith is idiotic.

Now, now, I didn’t mean that. Not all faith is negative – not by a long shot. You see, faith is two sided; on one face you have the – dare I say it – demonic, self-promoting, and self-important side that works to further divide the human populace with useless nonsense and archaic superstitions. On the other, you have spirituality, which is a wondrous thing. Spirituality is a wholly private experience and prides itself in innocence, not guilt and fear. It embraces life rather than worshiping death.

If you are a spiritual person, you do not need religion, and you know it and are certainly not interested in enforcing your beliefs on anyone else. If you aren’t a spiritual person, then what are you doing praying on your knees like a dog that’s been told what to do? Get up off the floor, stop making a fool of yourself. That faith is not a virtue, it is a vice; this is the exact same faith that those who attempt to promote their religious agenda – whatever it may be – will sell you. True spirituality is not sold, it is found. True spirituality is not a slave to dogma, to the clergy, to prophecy or scripture; it is not open to self-interested interpretation by men. It is pure, and it is personal.

@gussnarp – I completely agree. I find it offensive in that preaching to me assumes my life is incomplete, inferior, or somehow wrong. It assumes that I haven’t found a religion of my own, my own way to interpret and connect to the Divine. Not only that, I believe that people should live in whatever manner is best for them, as long as no harm is done to themselves or others. I don’t preach, I let live. I can’t stand it when I tell that to preachy folks and they still persist in trying to convince me of their particular dogma.

@MissAnthrope, but the reason why they persist is because they believe you are doing harm to yourself.

Also, again, I’m confused as to why someone would be offended by the fact that another person believes they are wrong. Don’t you believe religious people are wrong?

No, I don’t. They can believe in space aliens for all I care. If that gives them inner peace, so be it.

Also, my “being wrong” is not what bothers me. It’s the inability to let other people live their lives. I appreciate the Christian paradigm, I realize they think they’re helping me. However, it’s the intolerance and belittling of other faiths that bothers me, not whether I’m right or wrong.

I don’t either, I don’t care if they believe in God or not. What I have a problem with is the belief that some religions and beliefs are better than others. As long as someone is good, moral, helpful in society, why should there be any negative judgement there?

It seems like discrimination to not let all good people into heaven, I don’t believe God or Jesus would be ok with it.

@MissAnthrope, you don’t think that people who believe in “space aliens” are wrong?

What about people who believe that God wants them to circumcize their daughters, or to enact Biblical law in the United States?

@Qingu I can’t speak for @MissAnthrope, but I can speak for myself. I am less so offended at those who attempt to spread their theology and more so disgusted.

These are people who think they are helping us when in turn – as I said above – are in fact going against and polluting humankind. Even if this was not the case – even if there were some magical way that religion and science could go hand in hand and not counteractive, the indoctrination of children into religion is deplorable. They fill their head with baseless fears and ridiculous superstitions before their minds have a chance to develop. Ask any child when the first time they heard the meaning behind the word “Hell” – chances are, it would be before they could remember.

I’ve said this a million times (and I’m sure you’re all sick of it), but I empathize with a personal belief in a god, particularly if this faith was catalyzed by a personal loss or mental anguish. I do, I get it and would never attempt to take painkillers away from someone who so desperately needs them.

It’s when you start throwing these painkillers at random people on the street, telling normal, healthy, laughing people that they need them – hell, they are telling them if they don’t, they and their families will burn forever in eternal damnation. Similarly, they not only want to hand them out in the school yard, but want to bring them into the classroom as well and have a nice long class about the joys of taking them.

Just stop it.

@JLeslie, some religions and beliefs are obviously better than others.

Watch:

Belief #1: I believe that slavery should be legal.
Belief #2: I believe that slavery should not be legal.

Some beliefs are also more true than others. Watch:

Belief #1: I believe that if I jump off a cliff, God will grant me the power of hovering.
Belief #2: I believe that if I jump off a cliff, I will die.

Frankly, I find people’s insistence that “all beliefs are equal” self-evidently nonsensical.

@Qingu if their beliefs don’t affect me in my life, and let me live as I want, then they can believe in space aliens. If they are mutalating women to a life of pain I don’t care what religion they are I condemn the action even if they are atheists.

@Qingu I think it is human nature to be offended at being believed to be wrong. It’s one of those problems of humanity, our first response to being told we are wrong is to get angry. If we can keep our cool, then we can think about it and consider whether we are in fact wrong. Obviously how much you keep your cool depends on the issue, the manner of the interlocutor, and of course your own personality and mood. Given that faith can be a significant life issue, that at least some proselytizers can be pushy and repetitive, and that many non-believers have experienced being preached to repeatedly, anger and offense are natural responses. In fact, this should weight against repetitive preaching to others as a matter of strategy.

Yes, I think those who believe in God are probably wrong, and people who believe in space aliens as well, but I don’t go around telling them that (this thread excepted).

@Qingu But Christians are saying you can behave exactly as Jesus would want, but if you don’t believe he was the son of God, you aren’t going to heaven. You are talking about behaviors which can be judged by individulas and society, I am talking about behaving in accordance with Christianity except for this one basic premise.

When a Christian says to me, “I’m a Christian,” as a declaration of their honesty and integrity, I answer back, “I have Christian morals too.”

Wrong and don’t agree are two different things. I don’t think theists are wrong, I just don’t agree.

@gussnarp, if someone believed she could hover after jumping off a cliff, would you tell her she was wrong? (Or try to get her psychiatric help?)

I am guessing there is some threshold of “wrongness” that you’d intervene, probably having to do with whether or not the person is endangering themselves.

I submit to you that Christians think that you are endangering yourself in the same way a person jumping off a cliff is; just that the harm won’t come to you until the afterlife.

@JLeslie, Christians believe it is physically impossible for anyone to behave exactly like Jesus behaved. Seriously. There is magic involved that prevents it (well, more accurately, Adam’s original sin was “imputed” onto all his descendants, thus preventing us from ever achieving the required sinlessness to avoid punishment). Again, this is a central part of Christian theology. You can’t be “saved” simply by acting good; the premise of the religion is that salvation through works or “the law” is impossible.

Also, do you think anything is “wrong”? That just seems like empty semantics. Couldn’t a pushy Christian preacher just as easily say “I don’t agree that unbelievers won’t suffer for all eternity?”

@Qingu When I used “wrong” I was referring to atheism vs theism. As I said above I do judge behaviors. My point about behaving as Jesus or a Christian is that if I could theoretically act exaclty as my neighbor who is a Christian. I mean be identical to him in every way. He gets to go to heaven and I don’t. I just cannot believe God would function that way. Seems almost like separate but equal, but it’s not close to equal.

@JLeslie, for Christians, it’s the obedience that matters, not the actions. Like I said, there is literally a magical evil force that makes your soul unworthy to enter heaven—no matter what your actions are—and the only way you can get rid of it is by having faith in Jesus and thus being “saved.”

And I know, it’s unbelievable. That’s why I think Christian theology is “wrong.” :)

I appreciate that christians care so deeply about my personal well being and my fate after death but I also find it rather rude to imply that non-Christians or people that aren’t “saved” aren’t living the proper lifestyle. I’m very pleased with my life and the way I choose to live it. I wouldn’t change it for anything. What makes all those bible preachers who stand on the corners with signs any better than the rest of us? I have no problem with people believing in a higher power and practicing their own personal religions but please don’t try to force it on others.

@Qingu – First, I question how many of the particularly pushy evangelicals are concerned about my soul as opposed to theirs. I once belonged to an evangelical church, and along with believing in God, evangelical theology makes it clear that you must also be a “witness” of your faith on a daily basis, which many take to mean: pushy proselytizing. So I’m more or less convinced that for most, trying to convert non-believers is a selfish act to save their own soul, not a selfless act to save the non-believers. Also, I have objective, scientific reasons to believe that someone who jumps off a cliff would die, and, more importantly, there are not millions billions of people poised at the edge of cliffs around the world waiting to jump. The hypothetical cliff jumper is simply not a realistic comparison.

@Qingu ok, you made me laugh. I think we are agreeing overall and maybe are arguing semantics.

@gussnarp, I do agree that many evangelicals are ultimately self-interested. But not all of them; I don’t think you can generalize about tens of millions of people just based on your personal experience.

Also, you think things are right or wrong on the basis of scientific evidence. Evangelicals do so on the basis of the Bible. They think it is just as certain that you will burn in hell as you think someone jumping off a cliff will fall.

Now, I agree with you that their basis for judging right and wrong is, well, wrong. But again, I don’t get this meta-outrage at the mere fact that a Christian thinks you’re wrong. That’s all I’m really saying here.

58 responses in, somebody finally answered the question correctly.
@gussnarp is right. The modern evangelical movement requires it’s members to “witness” their faith to the world.

Is not what you are complaining about the same difference as your “concern” is?

@Qingu – What JLeslie said pretty much sums up how I feel. Who am I to say I know what is right or wrong in terms of God, or the lack thereof? Secondly, I think different truths can exist simultaneously.

As for slavery, I think any good Christian would say they are against it. “But it’s in the Bible,” you say. Well, so are a lot of other things, yet you don’t see people selling their daughters into slavery or burning white bulls on their lawns (sorry, I have had a trying day and Leviticus is the only thing that pops into my mind at the moment). What that means is though the Bible condones it, customs change and certain things just aren’t practiced any more. In the case of slavery, I think we can all agree that it’s a horrendous imposition on the soul of another human being, and as such, should not be continued.

Female circumcision. I am strongly for cultural relativism when it comes to other cultures’ and other religions’ behaviors and rituals. However, I think it becomes an issue of basic human rights when you hear the unbelievably horrid accounts of girls forced to comply with the practice, which frequently end in infection and death. Hence, these poor girls experience an egregious and completely unnecessary amount of mental and physical pain and trauma. In this case, I do think it’s wrong to subjugate any section of the population simply because they are female (or a different skin color, or ethnicity, or sexual orientation, etc.), and I think it’s even more wrong to make that population have to endure genital mutilation completely against their wills. And, in case you’re wondering, I feel the same way about male circumcision.

@breedmitch one of my dearest friends in the world is an evangelical Christian. She has never once sat me down and preached about how I should convert. Because she walks the walk, she doesn’t have to talk the talk. She lives her life every single day as a testament to her faith in God. So although the evangelical movement may require people to bring others in to the fold, there is more than one way to get that done.

@MissAnthrope, what do you mean by “good Christian”? Do you mean good as in a good person? (I agree, slavery is bad). Or do you mean good as in “following the content of their religion?”

In any case, you are making a moral judgment when you say that slavery is wrong, or that circumcision are wrong. But both of these things are explicitly codified, allowed, even commanded in the Bible. Thus, you are making a moral judgment on that book. To the extent that Judaism and Christianity stem from the content of this book, you are also making a judgment on those religions.

And that’s perfectly fine. But don’t pretend as though you’re “above the fray” and that “all beliefs are equally valid/moral.” That clearly isn’t what you think.

because every time you convert a non-believer you get a gold star and a cookie

@SuperMouse I know evangelical Christians who also never bring up their religion or try to imply I am “wrong” but I was wondering what these Christians think really about my religion and I guess from what I read here it confirms what I thought…even though they might respect me, and not try to convert me, they think I am not deservig of Heaven. I was hoping maybe these Christians who are more understanding that the world is diverse and it is ok to have many religions existing at once, that maybe they might reject this particular idea that heaven is for Christians only.

Particularly strange to me is when a Christian finds out I am Jewish and goes on and on about how they “love the Jewish people.” And that the “Jews are the chosen ones,” and then they are putting us in hell. If we are God’s chosen why would God not allow us into heaven? Makes no sense. I can honestly say I have never heard a Jew say that we are the chosen people.

@Qingu – You seem to be missing the point, where I said a lot of things are permissable, encouraged, and codified in the Bible, but are no longer practiced. I think slavery is awful and has always been so, but in certain time periods, that’s what they did and I accept that as part of history. Now, not being Christian, I take the Bible to be a work of fantastical historic record. So, am I surprised that slavery is glorified in the Bible? No, because of the cultural relativism of the time it was written, that’s what they believed.

Modern Christians do not (usually) have slaves, not to mention that at this point in time, it is generally considered unacceptable. So noting that slavery is wrong is not really being against Christian beliefs. You’re basically splitting hairs in order to continue this argument with me.

So, the point I’m getting at is even good Christians (by which I mean those that adhere to their faith) recognize that even though the Bible says it’s okay, it’s not acceptable practice. Slavery to me is not a religious issue, it’s a cultural issue. The same with circumcision.. in both cases, cultural relativism related to the time period at which these tenets were included in religious dogma.

just as anyone who tries to convince someone else of their opinion, they do it either because they want to help, or just because they want you to believe that they’re right.
a whole factor in most religions is bringing other people to god, so that’s a major part of it.

i personally don’t care what beliefs someone has – they can discuss them with me if they’d like to – but i don’t appreciate it when it’s done disrespectfully.

@MissAnthrope, I’ve met Christians who are Biblical literalists and believe that slavery is permissible because the Bible says so.

You are correct to point out that many Christians today simply ignore the parts of the Bible that don’t line up with modern morality. And I agree with your interpretation of the Bible. Of course, neither of us is a Christian, and both of us believe the Bible was written by human beings. There are some Christians that don’t do this and really do base their morality on what the Bible says, because they see the Bible as the ultimate foundation of their religion and morality.

And… you would say they are wrong. Rightfully so, in my opinion.

@JLeslie It’s not that Christians “think you’re not deserving of Heaven” or they need to be “more understanding that the world is diverse”... it’s that they just follow what they interpret the Bible to mean and do not put their personal spin on it. Some of them actually are understanding but it’s not about what we think; it’s about what the Bible says. We don’t get to make up the rules for ourselves, and different religions and denominations within religions interpret the Bible differently so everyone just follows what they understand the Bible to mean.

When I read this blasphemous drivel, I’m actually happy that all you stinkin’ reprobates will roast in Hell for all eternity.

@BBSDTfamily But there are things in the bible that are not followed, as stated above, that even Christian’s don’t do because in modern time it seem abusive or unjust. So, even Christian’s could decide for themselves that this interpretation does not make sense with what I know about life, people from other relgions, and your own value on good behavior.

@ratboy if that’s a joke, then well played.

if not, lol.

”’Im actually happy that all you stinkin’ reprobates will roast in Hell for all eternity.”

I do like a roasted chicken. Potatoes, gravy and fresh green beans

I just have a hard time believing Hell exists. I just had a thought.. okay, so when people have a near-death experience, they always report a bright light, the feeling of safety, and their loved ones waiting for them. Has anyone ever reported their near-trip to Hell?

@JLeslie Exactly, that’s why there isn’t just one Christian religion, there are many. There are some people who deviate from their specific denomination and make it into their own by applying their personal beliefs, there are some who don’t. I think the people you are having an issue with are those who don’t. I think that most of them though are just doing what they believe to be right, which is follow their religious beliefs and not trust their own. Not saying one is right or wrong, just trying to offer some light on the situation. I know both kinds of people, and I have no idea which one is a better person or not. They’re both pretty good to me.

@BBSDTfamily I am not having an issue, just trying to make sense of it. I am not saying one person is better than the other. No Christian seems to be following the bible exactly as written, so seems you can choose to believe the parts that make sense. I guess there are people who think it makes sense that if you don’t accept Jesus you are not going to heaven. So, I just wonder if there are Christian’s who think it doesn’t make sense? Maybe they think it doesn’t make sense, but still believe it anyway?

None of it really matters to me; I mean, I am not worried about when I die. I worry about life on earth, helping others, family, I don’t worry about the unknown.

@JLeslie I know several Christians that follow the Bible exactly as written according to their understanding of it. Not sure about Christians thinking it doesn’t make sense but still believe it. None that I know, but you never know there probably are some.

My single biggest problem with religious dogma is this.

OK, so if you put your faith in Christ as your personal savior, you will go to Heaven and spend an eternity in bliss. If you do not, you will go to Hell and spend and eternity of torment. And this is true NO MATTER WHAT. So, this could mean that you could spend your entire adult life taking care of the sick, the poor, the hungry and other needy, but never accept Christ, and you will be punished for not worshiping Him. Or, you could be the worst serial killer in history, picking off a victim a week for 50 years, and if on your deathbed, you accept Christ as your personal savior (if even out of fear for what will happen to you if you don’t), you can be forgiven and can enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

So, if I’m to believe this load of tripe, I’m also then to believe that this being that is so powerful that it created life, the universe and everything is also so vain that it would take vengeance on you if you did not worship it? Something has this much power, this much wisdom, and yet is so self-absorbed that it would allow evil to permeate it’s kingdom and goodness to be punished?

Whatever.

@dalepetrie, read Job.

Who are you, puny human, to judge the logical sense of God’s actions? He can beat up a crocodile! Can you beat up a crocodile?

I have beat up crocodiles. It is not a pretty sight.

Sure, blindfolded with both arms tied behind my back! And this God character, I’ll just say, he’s no Chuck Norris.

@dalepetrie

Don’t forget there are lines in the Bible that indicate Hell doesn’t exist at all…

Flanders: But I’ve done everything the Bible says! Even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!

@dalepetrie, true. He couldn’t win a fight against a tribe because they had iron chariots. (Judges 1:19) Chuck Norris probably could.

@DominicX, what lines?

Which I think all points to the single biggest reason that most of your non-believers tend to be on average more educated and more intelligent…because with intelligence comes an inherent need for logic. Logic and religion are not compatible. Therefore if you use logic, you’re going to be suspicious of any text that a) contradicts itself, b) contradicts what is known to be true, and c) presents stories where the characters’ motivations can not be logically explained.

@Qingu

There are many lines in the Bible that seem to indicate that wicked souls simply die out.

Psalm 146:4
Man’s breath goes out, he is turned back again to dust; in that day all his purposes come to an end.

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the LORD will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

I’m not trying to argue anything; I don’t know what to make of these lines, particularly Psalm 37:20. I don’t understand it. But I’m not a theologian.

@dalepetrie, the funny thing about Job is that Yahweh’s motivation is logically explained: He’s trying to win a bet that he made with Satan, his annoying sidekick, thus proving how awesome he is.

That’s all Job wants to know. “Why is this happening to me?” God could have just told Job the truth (“I am allowing Satan to torture you and kill your whole family to win a bet with him”)—which we readers know perfectly well since it’s the frame story. Instead, God gets pissed at Job for even asking.

The moral of the story is literally that we’re not supposed to question God because he’s super-powerful.

“Logic and religion are not compatible.”

Sure they are.

Just stop putting mans face on God.

Convenient this not questioning God, superpowerful thing. Use your God given mind, except in relation to Him. That sounds like something MEN would write to control people rather than what an all knowing super being, loving, God would say.

@DominicX, none of those lines really contradict hell, a place of torment for the soul (as opposed to the body).

Though it is true that the Hebrews did not have a conception of hell or an afterlife of any complexity. This is why the God of the Old Testament has non-hell threats if you don’t listen to him, such as:

• inflicting you with boils
• causing you to become blind
• causing your wife to be raped by another man
• selling you into slavery
• forcing you to eat the flesh of your children and miscarriages
• “taking delight in your ruin and destruction”

And so on. For 50 lines. (Deuteronomy 28:16–68)

I’m guessing the Jews/Christians invented hell when enough people called bullshit on this litany of childish threats. Afterlife punishments are much harder to call bluffs on.

@JLeslie, yeah. Though I think the most obvious “written by men!” part of the Bible is the stuff about sacrifices in Leviticus.

You have to sacrifice grain or meat to God for every tiny little transgression—even the ones you didn’t mean to do. But the priests get a cut of all your sacrifices. And incidentally, don’t forget to season your sacrifices with salt and herbs, because “God loves salt.”

I think this is really why they skip Leviticus at church. :)

@Qingu I had not thought of that. Better to have a punishment you cannot prove or disprove.

And rewards you can’t prove/disprove either. Especially from a political perspective.

Way easier to oppress and rob your populace, and send them off to war, if they’re all convinced they’ll be rewarded after they die.

@Qingu Yeah. I have decided that the biggest differences between the Jews, the Moslems, and the Christians is the Jews never think about death, and focus fiercely on life on earth. The Moslems obsess about death, almost like life means nothing. And, Christian’s are somewhere in the middle. I am talking in the extremes of course.

Do you know if the Japanese Kamakazi (sp?) pilots believed they were going to heaven? What was their gig?

@JLeslie, I agree that Jews, moreso than Christians and Muslims, focus on life on earth as opposed to the afterlife. I don’t think it’s fair to say that Muslims “obsess” about death, especially compared to Christians. Muslims are not, historically, the only suicide bombers, if that’s what you’re referring to. And Christianity has a long history of devout Christians going out of their way to get martyred; Pope Urban II promised the Crusaders a free ticket to heaven if they died on the battlefield. (Suicide bombing is certainly helped by religious afterlife faith, but it’s also a valid and very effective military tactic, which is how it’s most often used).

I don’t know anything about the kamikazi though.

@Qingu Hmmm…generally what I really think is that suicide bombers are depressed people who see no hope in their futures, and the idea that their families and peers will see them as heroes sounds good to them, along with the other brainwashing and beliefs about death. I think it is more a DSM diagnosis than anything.

Well, the scope of this question seems to have opened up a bit.
I think my problem with using the bible as the “word of g-d” is that it’s such a very unreliable source. From what I understand each of the gospels in the new testament was written for a different audience and the subtle differences in them reflect a slant or propagandic agenda to lead that particular persecuted group to Christianity. Not to mention that the oldest new testament source was written 80 years after Jesus’ death.
There are plenty of good reasons to teach the same values that the empathetic side of Christianity espouses. I just don’t think the bible should be the definitive source.
I don’t like propaganda from Fox News and I don’t like it in my religion.

There is no contradiction with logic if magic is involved, I see.

@JLeslie I’m assuming you are talking about things in the Old Testament… you’re right, many Christians don’t do those things because they interpret the Bible to mean that with Jesus coming and dying for our sins, there is no need to do some of those things any longer. Like I said, it’s about how each denomination interprets the Bible.