How to deal with cultural differences in school (a lot of text inside...)

You have great English to me : )

I think that respect for culture must involve cultural understanding.

From what I gather from your description, which was very well written (no need to be concerned about your English), this culture prohibits girls to go on field trips. I think that you respecting that is okay and that pressuring this child and their family to go against their cultural beliefs for a field trip may be a poor choice.

I suggest that instead you think of an alternative activity for her to participate in while you are away at the mountains. If you need help with this perhaps ask someone from her culture, maybe even a family member of hers to help you with the alternative assignment. Let them know you are more than willing to accept their cultural beliefs, that she cannot go on the field trip, but that they must be aware her grade will suffer without going. So you want to look out for her (see this way you are the ‘good guy’) and come up with an activity for her to do while the rest of the class is gone that won’t make her grade suffer.

It seems too much like you want her to conform to your beliefs but, especially when the family is saying they will protect this belief with violence, this girl can become just as educated while still respecting her culture. I suggest you find a way to be culturally understanding instead of trying to change things for what you believe is the better. However, I think it is fantastic you are so worried about your students. Good for you :)

I come from a “different” culture myself so understand how complicated things can sometimes become. I always believe that being understanding and accepting of cultural differences, instead of trying to change them, is the best way to go.

I find it odd that it would be against the law to not go on a trip with the class. In America a parent would have to sign a form to let their child go on the trip. I also think America would let children out of certain activities for religious reasons. But you have said it is not religion it is culture?? Still, generally we defer to the parent. This is a tough question.

Generally, I feel that when a person goes to a new country they need to obey the laws of that country. If it is not a good “fit” then they should not go to that country. I think you should do nothing personally to address this with the family, but that it should be handled as a legal issue. I would report it to someone higher up and let the powers at be sort it out. As you said you don’t want anything negative to happen to the girl when it is not her fault. All we can hope is that your country’s western ways of equality for females, whether she participates or not, will have an affect on her in the long run when she has more control over her own life.

Do they have private schools they can attend instead?

First of all your English is great and you explained the issue very well. I don’t think there are any easy answers; Sweden is probably not going to be able to legislate the issue away. Time and sensitivity may help.

Many of the groups who have come to America have wanted their children to assimilate into the prevailing culture while also retaining aspects of their original culture so in many cases, our process of assimilating cultures has been easier. (Although still fraught with difficulty.) Also, we have been a polyglot country since our origin. This is not to discount the horrors that were perpetrated on Natives and Africans. Sweden and some of the other European countries, in my understanding, are just beginning to experience great influxes of immigration and have previously been very homogeneous.

For a practical suggestion, maybe it would be possible to have a meeting with parents in the beginning of the year and discuss with them the expections for field trips, etc. Perhaps there is a way the parents might suggest that the girls can participate while somehow their honor is protected. (Separate swimming times for girls?)

It’s very difficult becase you don’t want to kowtow to their repressive values but I think some of the ways the French are going about things – banning headscarves, not allowing bathing in long swimsuits – is very rigid and disrespectful of other cultures.

@janbb I think that is a great idea to speak to the parents up front and see if there is a compromise.

Is it true headscarves are banned in France, or it is banned to cover your face?

@RedPowerLady I see your point there, and I am thinking a bit the way you do. But the difficult part is that if I say this behaviour is okay, I let the girl down. Sweden has been working really hard for long time to get where we are now when it comes to gender equity and should I, could I, stand aside and see this girl keep being oppressed by the males in the family? This is not the way we Swedes think of democracy. Me not acting on this, would be like saying it is okay to oppress the child. Children is the most important thing and what this culture does is to say they are unworthy and not allowed to think or act on their own.

I cannot believe you did not receive training and curricula for this. My wife is a teacher and she took several courses on this topic.

You’re a teacher, teach. If a problem arises approach it as a topic for study. Study the history of their cultures and their new culture. Ask them what they find good and bad in both cultures.

Children change a culture by growing up to do things differently. They change their parents by showing them how things can be different.

@JLeslie It is my understanding that headscarves, as well as yarmulkes and crucifixes are banned in French schools and possibly workplaces too, but I’m not sure of that part.

@JLeslie Well, we have the school law that says that every child must attend school to the age of 16 (in all nine years) and all activities are compulsory if nothing else is said or if it is voluntary.

I agree on what you say about adopting new cultures when moving to different countries, even if I want to respect different cultures as well.

@jazzjeppe the child will know that her family is preventing her from participating, and that other girls are allowed. Her parents have chosen to expose her to this, and they think it won’t matter, but it will. In America, as you know, we have a long history of immigration, and what happens is by the second or third generation people get “americanized.” I understand your frustration, but I think with young children you have to honor the parents.

@tinyfaery Yeah, I know. This is a huge discussion why teacher students aren’t receiving training when it comes to this. Our teacher eduction lacks a lot of important things and it needs to be revised heavily.

@JLeslie Yes, that’s right. These kids have a different approach to adults and parents than we have in the western countries, well in Sweden at least. Also, they have been taught very early what’s wrong and what’s right according to their tradition they can’t do anything but obey. And not to forget, they are also often too afraid to even question their parents.

If you haven’t seen it, I recommend the French film about a high school class of immigrants Entre Les Murs. It doesn’t deal with this exact issue but does deal with severl issues of working with immigrant students.

In this case, where there is such a disparity between Swedish values and the immigrant cultural values, it does seem like there must be some guidance from leading educators as to what to do. I do think parent/teacher meetings might help or possibly setting up a council to discuss and advise on such issues.

@jazzjeppe I really see your point about gender equality. It is such an important battle to fight. However I think “pick your battles” is the relevant phrase for this situation. You can fight gender equality without taking up this specific circumstance. Perhaps you could brainstorm with some colleagues about how to address this issue but do not focus on this one specific instance. By pressuring her family to go against their cultural beliefs you are likely causing more problems for this girl than good. I am a HUGE fan of fighting oppression but it needs to be done in a way that does not specifically pick out individual children. That can become a very scary for that particular child.

I also think it is very important to consider self-determination. This culture has a right to determine their own cultural beliefs, including ones that determine gender equality. They may not fall in-line with your belief system but that does not make them wrong (unless someone is being explicitly hurt). Perhaps learning more about this culture would help you have warmer feelings about their choices in gender equality. It seems they are sincere in wanting to protect women and not harm them.

It seems like their are three issues here:
1. Protecting This Child In Particular. I would say that you let it be in this case and provide her with an assignment that would further her education so she isn’t losing out.
2. Fighting Oppression and Gender Inequality. This can be done in a variety of ways and good for you for fighting the good fight! It needs to be done especially at the level of education. I think if you take some time you can find a sensitive and powerful way to fight this battle (without involving individual children, families, or cultures).
3. Understanding and Acceptance of Cultural Differences. In all honesty you seem quite skewed in your acceptance of this cultures belief system. However your ability to discuss your beliefs and challenge them is fantastic. I think you should do a bit more exploring on how you can protect your students while simultaneously respecting their cultures.

@RedPowerLady Thanks for that long great reply! You have many good points here. As I said I have been thinking in the exact way as you do, but it was kinda before I put myself in a situation where I need to make a stand i.e. starting to work in a suburban area with many different cultures and ethnicities. I would never have come across this issue if would have stayed at my old job.

I strongly believe that cultures should be respected, but today when I was more or less “forced” to think about it, I do see that there are elements in cultures that either needs to be protected, in this case our Swedish culture, or not giving room to..well, bloom? But I am not sure I am the one to decide what parts of a culture is okay and not okay. Who am I to judge? I can’t. But If I am to protect our Swedish values, which is written in my job description, this part of the foreign culture is a… well, threat to what we/I believe in? You catch my point?

Gawd, now I am even more confused…

The reason why I have been thinking of this issue today is that I was interviewed by a person who is writing a book on the matter. She asked me a lot of questions and gave me billions of things to think of. Now I am not sure what I think any more.

A suggestion I had is to find groups of people who actually “have changed” and who can be our support when talking to these parents. People from the same country and culture really. I think that having a couple of teachers and experts wouldn’t get us nowhere, we need people who are more “alike” and like-minded. Kinda. If that makes sense.

When you emigrate from your homeland to a foreign country, you leave your culture behind, and it becomes your heritage in the new country that you have chosen to move to. It is hard to give up old ways when you are trying to learn a new language, new way of life, etc. Is there some sort of ethnic support organization that can work with the parents to put them more at ease with the idea of the field trip. Perhaps a mother or older sister could go as a chaparone. Are there opportunities for socializing with other families from the school so the parents can feel more comfortable?

Is the field trip absolutely necessary, or is there another way to incorporate the same learning into a different environment? Many fine programs have been eliminated from American schools because of cultural differences.

@jazzjeppe Well I think it is fantastic you are considering this point.

Having said that, I really think it is a bad mindset to pit Swedish values against other cultural values. There has to be a way of you accepting both. If you start thinking along these terms then one will have to “win” and the other will have to “lose”. When it comes to cultural understanding there is always room for Grey (compromise).

I think the best step you could take at this point is to form a committee of concerned educators to really discuss this issue in-depth and think of ways to take appropriate action. However just don’t include educators, get some volunteers from the community, from different cultures, to be a part of the committee as well. In the meantime don’t pick at certain students as this could be dangerous to them. Instead record the incidents as they may help you when it is time to discuss the issue with others.

A suggestion I had is to find groups of people who actually “have changed” and who can be our support when talking to these parents.
I disagree too with this mindset. Again you are saying that this culture has to “change” to fit in. You should instead find a way that everyone can be accepted. If not then you are the Oppressor.

I think that having a couple of teachers and experts wouldn’t get us nowhere, we need people who are more “alike” and like-minded
I also disagree with this mindset. This is the difference between the Mixing Pot and the Salad Bowl. They are both theories of cultural understanding. The Mixing Pot was last decade and the Salad Bowl is more current.

In the Mixing Pot all cultures are mixed together as if they become a brothy stew. There are lots of different ingredients in the stew and it comes out tasting fantastic. However it requires assimilation. All of the ingredients must blend together.

In the Salad Bowl theory all cultures are mixed together as if they were a salad. Each culture gets to retain their unique values. They get to remain a tomato or a cucumber. But in the end they all still end up being a very tasty dish. The idea here is that we live together while accepting each others differences.

@jazzjeppe I don’t understand your last paragraph who “has changed?” and who is “like minded?”

@jazzjeppe I’m curious, why are they coming to your country?

@RedPowerLady Well said, and nothing to add! As usual. ;) I think that in the end it would be far more detrimental to your student to find some way to force her family to let her go, than it would be for her to miss the trip. Really—it sounds like there could be physical repercussions against her, and most certainly emotional backlash if this issue is in any way forced…. Will she have more control over her life after 18?

@PandoraBoxx I think it’s more a question of policy than what is necessary or not. The law says that every child must attend school if not sick or other valid reasons. But the questions is, and I don’t have an answer, if cultural reasons that roots in oppression is a valid reason, if you know what i mean. But I agree, a school trip here and there, why such a big deal? But again, it might be, if the reason is that a culture stops a child from socializing with boys just because the child is a girl…kinda

A few people have said that when you leave your country and move to another it is your responsibility to assimilate. This is absolutely not true. It is your responsibility to educate yourself about that culture and to respect it. It is also your responsibility to follow that country’s laws. But under no circumstance do you have the responsibility to give up your own cultural values. This is an out-dated and un-empathetic mindset. Wow I am surprised that so many people still think this way.

@JLeslie I completely agree. No matter one’s feelings on the cultural aspect, as we all evidently have different feelings on it, the child’s safety should be thought of as first and foremost in matter of importance.

@RedPowerLady So you mean that we shouldn’t act on it at all and just let it be?

@jazzjeppe I wouldn’t act on it at all in this circumstance other than giving her another assignment. Instead of acting on this situation with the girl I would find another way to deal with the cultural issue like forming a cultural committee at the school.

@JLeslie The reasons why they came here could be many, from being political or war refugees to “moving” here and hoping getting asylum.

I don’t see the integration of girls into an assigned activity as your problem. It is an administrative problem. They should be making and enforcing decisions. For PE you could have single gender classes. I think that is a benefit for all teenage girls anyway because competing with boys puts most girls at a disadvantage. If it is a matter of dressing in gym shorts if there is a religios taboo, let them wear sweat suits. As for overnight excursions, there should be some academic component not just a get away team building thing. You might make sure one of the chaparones is a woman to allay parents fears.

Since teachers have to continuously update their educations, in our city we offer cultural awareness classes and teachers graduating in our stat must complete coursework on teaching English language learners (immigrants)

Don’t think about it as allowing or encouraging them to become “Swedish” They will absorb the culture on their own, parents can’t stop it. Also the idea of “blooming” within Swedish culture is a little patronizing. Every culture has something to offer. Maybe you will find your exposure to these new students will help you bloom too

@RedPowerLady If you are responding to my statement, I was not saying it is the responsiblity of the new culture to assimilate, what I was said that eventually by the second and third generation generally the new culture is assimilated, sometimes to the surprise of the original people (parents and grandparents) who came to the new country. But, I think you have to obey the laws of the new country. I just question a law that makes a field trip mandatory.

@RedPowerLady Yeah…I would think so too of the reasons you said about living together with cultural differences and all. It would surely be the easiest way to do it, but I wonder if it is the correct way if looking at our curriculum and goals of the school system. It says something like “teaching about being well-functioning human beings in the world and protecting our democratic and Swedish values”. The equity issue is really huge in Sweden and is an ongoing debate.

@galileogirl Sorry, I couldn’t find a better word but “blooming” (language barriers! :)

@JLeslie I think I understood your statement, especially after you clarified your point later. We seem to communicate well even if we don’t have exactly the same beliefs. What I was really responding to was the comment made by @PandoraBoxx although I did recall a bit of your statement saying that someone should not go to a country if it wasn’t a ‘good fit’ but now I understand that you meant in terms of obeying laws and not in terms of culture .

My family is on its third country in three generations. Only my father’s parents were married before they migrated, and even their ethnicity was not where their family came from.

Part of the decision to go to a new land carries with it the understanding that the people who are taking you in are different from you. There is give and take.

@jazzjeppe I think you are right that it is an issue that is much bigger than forming a cultural committee. The committee may be a good start however. But the statement that you quoted should surely be more defined as should curriculum and goals like you stated. I must admit that I am not able to speak on behalf of Sweden in particular, just the issue of equality in general.

@RedPowerLady Oh, you have provided me with such great feedback that I am likely to be awake the entire night thinking about this :)

@PandoraBoxx I may have misinterpreted what you said. I simply do not believe it is necessary to give up your cultural values when you emigrate.

@jazzjeppe Well thank you. I find it refreshing to speak with an educator who is concerned as well as able to think critically about their own beliefs and the beliefs of the system they are working under.

You don’t; it becomes your heritage. It is part of who you are, even if it’s not what you practice on a daily basis.

@PandoraBoxx So you have not stayed long enough in one place to see what happens when you are in the same place for three generations. I mean, at least not in your family.

I think there’s also a huge difference in what a teacher’s job is depending on where we live. A Swedish teacher is most likely to be more of a social worker, a psychologist, a diplomat in family relations, a parent, a baby sitter…this is how this profession has developed here lately. I don’t like it, it takes too much energy to deal with. I shouldn’t, as some stated, even be dealing with this, I should focus on teaching :(

@jazzjeppe That does seem very overwhelming. I hope you have a personal method of setting boundaries and allowing yourself some time not to think about work. I do social work and can understand how draining it can be.

@RedPowerLady I agree wholeheartedly that it isn’t necessary to give up your cultural values. Just the opposite in fact…other cultures give so much color to the world. What I do disagree with, though, is immigrants who come in and expect the rest of society to change to accommodate them….in this case, however, it’s a whole different animal. The poor girl could be at serious risk.

((wow, this might be the most interesting discussion on Fluther I have come across so far, thanks all for participating and helping me out!))

This issue can’t be solved over night. It’s something that we need to work with for a long time and as some said already, I don’t think this is permanent. Time changes things, next generation and the second will hopefully think differently. But we need to keep the discussion alive and going.

@jazzjeppe It is quite common for people think about what our country can offer others especially those from disadvantaged or 3rd world countries. It requires an adjustment in our thinking to appreciate why the mores are different. As teachers we have to be culturally neutral and pass that attitude on to all students. It is a very subtle change to our thought processes because we are not used to seeing these things in new ways.

When I say it has to start with you instead of your students, don’t be offended-the process is very subtle. When I became a teacher 20 years ago I had been an ethnically diverse family and had worked for 2 decades in an ethnically diverse business world but I still made some mistakes. I found I had as much to leasn as I had to teach.

@jazzjeppe How permanent it is depends on for how many years people keep coming over. Each new immigrant family from similar cultures will have the same issues. So even though the children you are dealing with, their children may not have an issue, if people are still migrating to your country 10 years from now you will still have the same “problem.” I think it good to figure out how to deal with cultural and relgious differences in general, because even if middle eastern people stop coming, maybe next time it will some other part of the world coming? When Italians and the Polish first came to America many years ago they were seen as foreigners with different cultures, but now they are part of the American fabric. That first group of immigrants didn;t speak English, some never learned it. Now, in the US we have people who are frustrated with Spanish speaking people who never learn English. The truth is their children learn English, but sine hispanics have been coming over for so many years, it seems like there is always people who don’t speak English. Their perception is wrong, because the new generation does.

Maybe if you think of it like this: what if you were the person going to a new country, what would you want for your children when they attend school? What acknowledgement of your own culture and values?

@galileogirl I do see myself as a very cultural neutral and I respect everyone and everything, that’s why this is also a tough one for me to deal with. When I said to the person who interviewed me that I respect other people’s culture, she gave me questions that made my head spin. What comes first the respect of culture or human rights? What if a culture is of a kind where human rights are violated, like this one, should I still respect it and leave it be?

@jazzjeppe I think one of the key issues you should work on mentally is this statement right here: What if a culture is of a kind where human rights are violated, like this one, should I still respect it and leave it be?

The idea that this culture is violating human rights because they have different ideas about gender equality may not be founded. This is something you really should explore more before making such assumptions.

@RedPowerLady I get what you say, and of course it can be questioned whether it is a culture that violates human rights or not – it’s all in the eyes of the beholder. According to us here in Sweden, it would be. We do believe that a girl should be able to marry who she wants not having parents deciding, a girl should be able to socialize with people and a girl should be able to have the same education as everyone else. I would say from a Swede’s point of view, these are human rights. To us. So my assumption is based on my own values and perhaps that’s wrong.

@jazzjeppe I agree with you about human rights and don’t feel all cultural values are relative. Women’s rights are crucial to progress. However, you always have to start in some way with where people are coming from. There has always been a push-pull in values in the US toward and then away from greater liberality. These are important issues that you and other Swedes are dealing with but they are not issues that can be solved once and for all time.

By the way, are we talking about just one girl or several in the class?

Can a family member go with her????

@jazzjeppe I don’t feel you are eeally getting what @RedPowerLady and I are saying. It doesn’t have to be culture vs human rights. What may seem unacceptable to Swedes or Americans may work well for other groups ie wearing a scarf by a Muslim girl or arranged marriages. It has to do with the biases of our upbringing. In the US we hava a religious group called the Amish. They live as people did almost 200 years ago. We don’t feel they have to be experience modern life if they wish to be self-sufficient farmers who are successful without electricity, telephones and fossil fuels. I’m still hearing the rescuer in your posts. That is not culture neutral. It is not up to us to bring them into our culture. They will make any steps in their own time and they may very well decide not to accept our culture and so be it

Awareness is everything. Understand your own culture first. Then try to understand other cultures.

@galileogirl well said. GA

But, just to defend the other side of the argument, be devils advocate…the US is the type of country that tolerates or allows many different cultures to come together. It is what we were founded on, the new world, a place for people who want freedom and a new opportunity without having to give up everything from your old identity.

There has been significant difficulties in some Northern European countries where Moslems are not assimilating, and they go back to their home countries to bring back new spouses, and attempt to change laws in the new country to accommodate their way of life. They use the social systems, and it is causing some resentment, angst and hatred. The Amish are a great example of being ale to live very seperate in a country, but they don’t really interfere with anyone else.

If Sweden wants to be the type of country that says our way or the highway, maybe they should have that right? My guess (GUESS, correct me if I am wrong) is that Sweden has been very homogenous for hundreds of years, and maybe they believe strongly in their way of life. That you can come to their country if you want to participate in that way of life. I am sure this causes some cognitive dissonance for the Swedish people because my guess is they are very accepting and respect other cultures intellectually. I would guess they abhor the idea of discrimination and racism. But, if this is the first time they are really dealing with very different cultures, they might be surprised at their own reactions. The reality of trying to all live together.

@jazzjeppe I am wondering if Sweden has always had an open immigration policy, and just now people started to utilize it? Or, did Sweden recently open it’s doors for a specific reason?

@JLeslie I agree with what you are saying. I think many Eurpoean countries are dealing with these issues for the first time.

What is legal in one country is not legal in another. What is accepted in one culture, is not acceptable in another. When people leave their home culture and live amongst other people, it is reasonable to expect them to adapt to their new culture. If they are going to participate in public schools, then I think they should have to learn about the new culture, and learn to do things that they don’t do where they come from. If they want to not have their children deal with the new culture, they can home school them, or send them to a religious school.

I’m all for understanding other people’s cultures, but I am not for tolerating discrimination or illegal behavior because it comes from someone else’s culture. Parents have some rights, but they do not have the right to abuse their kids, even if that is acceptable where they come from. If the family is maltreating their daughter by this culture’s standards, then social services or family services should be brought in.

On the other hand, parents do have to sign permission for schools to bring their children on a trip. It is perfectly acceptable for parents not to sign the permission slips, no matter what reason they choose not to do so. You can’t sue them about this. Well, you could, but you won’t get anywhere.

If their behavior is legal, you have no business trying to force a change. Your job is to educate, not change. You have to trust that change will come from education, but I don’t think it is appropriate for you to get between members of a family. If their behavior is illegal, you should report it to the proper authorities.

You can offer the child all kinds of benefits, if you like. Special tutoring, or whatever. But you can’t force it on them. I don’t think you have to offer “equal time” for opposing points of view. It’s your class. You teach what you want. You should listen to students, but you don’t have to agree with them. You educate by giving them reasons to see things another way. In the end, they have to change of their own free will. You may be appalled by their behavior, but as long as it’s legal, the only thing you can do is to educate. And after all, isn’t that your job?

@galileogirl GA!

@JLeslie Living in the Bay Area 90% of my life and in San Francisco for almost 30 years I have seen many waves of different cultures. I also remember the European reaction to our civil rights difficulties-they acted as if we were all racists. I remember thinking walk a mile in our shoes. Now with the EU breaking down barriers, they see it isn’t as easy as they thought.

I think we have ridden out the “English onlies” or maybe they are too preoccupied with insurance companies only for now. I don’t think the Swedes are that xenophobic but thereis this whiff of cultural superiority that we had in the early 20th century and politically still clings to our politicians, the idea that America has everything to offer and nothing to learn.

@galileogirl I don’t think they are xenophobic, or elitests or ethnocentric for that matter.

It makes me think of all white Iowa voting for Obama. You might have seen me write this before. In my opinion that was no surprise, I felt sure that areas with large black lower income populations would be the ones most likely to be prejudiced. The all white areas who believe all people are equal, and race does not matter, just simply believe it in an idealist sort of way. I believe that too, that we are all equal, but I also know through experience that there can big cultural differences between different groups. In the US we see this mostly among differenct socio-economic groups more than anything. I don’t know if these parents in Sweden are educated? As @daloon and some others pointed out, over time you have to just hope that the education these children are exposed to will influence them.

As you say, I am not judging the culture, but maybe Sweden doesn’t want to have to adjust their country for others? In America we are all about the adjustments, because we are from so many different countries. Even then I think we end up bending over too far backwards sometimes. It seems that the OP cares about cultural differences, but has a knee jerk reaction to anything that seems to favor boys or hurt girls. I like the idea of separated sexes for gym class personally, but if it is a small school it may not be possible or practical.

The OP said 90% of her children are immigrants, that is a BIG number. Basically, it is their school in some ways. If no one is going to participate in certain activities it seems the activities are not going to happen possibly. But, I am not sure how many of these children’s families are actually going to object.

How far would you go to accommodate children in school? In Dearborn, MI some schools have special foot baths of some sort at the school for the Muslim children from what I understand. A lot of people were upset about this. I generally like Public schools to be secular, and if you want a private religious school have at it.

I too grew up in a VERY diverse area of the country, outside of NYC and outside of Washington DC. My high school was 40% minorities. The guy I dated for years in high school and college was Ecuadorian, one of my close friends was from Pakistan, I had black friends, Vietnamese, Korean, Iran, everywhere and everything. None of us gave it a second thought to it, but I can’t think of one friend who did not participate in the activities in school. At least it was not obvious to me. In some ways it is much easier when it is VERY diverse like San Fran and DC, then when it is just two groups like what I experience in the south – black and white; and maybe what it is like in Sweden – Arab and Swedish.

Iowa, like the rest of the country has had over 50 years to learn. The shame is that teachers aren’t able to learn from history and the experiences of others. There are literally libraries of books about teaching children of diverse backgrounds. If the situation is on the rise in Europe where is the training for teachers. We know how to do it but Swedish educators (if this person is any example) are thinking that hooking immigrant kids into the Swedish life style is important on a civil liberties level. What happens in a my way is the only way situation, we see sudents becoming disaffected, dropping out of school and becoming a permanant underclass.

@galileogirl That is something I had not really thought about, the idea that the students become disaffected and it leads to an underclass. I need to really think about that. If you have anything further to add on that I would be interested. I have always thought that when we cater too much to a particular group or even region of our country it puts the child at a disadvantage in terms of being able to compete. I want the Hispanic kid in south TX to have the same, or at least a very similar, education, to the kid in Seattle, Washington so they can both have a shot at Harvard if they want, and their English be good enough that they can get a corporate job.

Iowa’s experience with minorities is vastly different than downtown Memphis. I, who grew up in very diverse conditions, am shocked at what goes on here, you would be also I think. It is a sad situation.

I doubt if many immigrant kids get disaffected, leave school, and end up in a permanent underclass situation. Most immigrants come to this country to work hard and move up the economic ladder. Mostly, they understand that education is their ticket to better circumstances. The kids are probably being pushed hard by their parents. I’ve found in my work, that immigrants tend to work twice as hard as Americans.

I don’t worry about cultural differences. I have no problem with people preserving their culture. Why? Because I know that assimilation happens, no matter what our policies are. It might happen over a couple of generations, but it happens.

You deal with differences by respecting them and trying to understand them, and then suggesting alternative ways that might work better.

@daloon Overall I agree with you. People just have to be patient.

Well you all haven’t seen what I have been living with for the last 20 years. In fact the kids who have language and cultural difficulties do drop out. The way to keep them engaged and in school is not turn them into good little Americans but scaffold their lessons using their culture and language. Success first and they will absorb the culture in their own time.

Coming from a non-traditional culture I can attest to the fact that people in my cultural group have significantly high drop-out rates precisely because they become disaffected. I will say that @galileogirl ‘s response The way to keep them engaged and in school is not turn them into good little Americans but scaffold their lessons using their culture and language. is absolutely dead on when it comes to my culture and cultural studies that show this is in fact true. Also on the note that they will become assimilated. Well not true. One of the reasons people from my cultural group become so disaffected is precisely because they value their culture and have huge movements to not become assimilated (of course this has happened by force but I am speaking about choice).

How can you help but at least become somewhat assimilated, @RedPowerLady? I mean, you learn job skills that come from the white man’s world. You learn to talk white man talk. You learn about the values of the white man. You’re at school, for God’s sake.

I think that people can keep their own culture and assimilate at the same time. Some people try really hard to reinforce their own culture, but they usually set up their own schools to make it easier. But Italians and Jews and Chinese and Yoruba and thousands of others manage to both keep learning and passing on cultural traditions while learning what they need to in order to get along in the predominant culture.

I think people talk about this as being two people. Like blacks who talk one way when with their “own people,” and talk another when out in the world. It’s a balancing act, I guess. But taking on protective coloring is both a survival tool and a degree of assimilation.

Most immigrants don’t mind assimilating. Native Americans, of course, consider themselves to be the natives, and the rest of us to be immigrants. We should be doing the assimilating, not you. Unfortunately, power relationships turn that equation around.

I am just saying that assimilation occurs. I understand and support people in maintaining as many aspects of their traditional culture as they can. I think public schools can support students in maintaining their cultures in some ways, but not if those traditions are illegal, or hurtful of some group, such as women.

Cultures do change, and they change in response to infections from other cultures. You can’t wall yourselves off totally. So these changes will occur. I also agree with you and @galileogirl about scaffolding lessons using culture and language. I think it is helpful for every student in the classroom, native or immigrant. I think it teaches respect for other cultures.

However, I don’t think we have to respect all aspects of other cultures, and we don’t have to accept it, just because it’s a part of another culture. Women’s circumcision, honor culture, killing brides, cutting off hands of infidels and on and on. I think it is appropriate to draw lines—where the other culture goes beyond the laws of this culture. That includes issues such as murder and child abuse, which withholding education could be considered a form of. And, as always, immigrants have the option of setting up their own schools. In some cases, they can do it with public dollars.

@RedPowerLady it seems to me the groups that have assimilated the least have the hardest time doing “well” in America. Now, I do not mean to judge what is considered a good life. I think this is the thread where the Amish were brought up, I am fine with the Amish living as they do, as long as they are content as well.

No one is talking about TURNING them into good little American’s. All I am talking about is exposing all of the children to the same learning opportunities so they have the same chances as any other child to prosper in America. I think you can keep your culture in your home and community and also be able to participate in America, whatever the norms are. You can have both, you don’t have to choose one or the other. My husband speaks his first language with his family and speaks English at work. We celebrate holidays with his family, foods, music, etc., he does not have to give that up. Hell, when there was all of that uproar about Ebonics years ago…it is fine with me if they speak it at home, just better damn well speak English clearly and without slang if you want to go work for Microsoft. And, we all have to conform somewhat with wardrobe and other things depending on the situation.

School should not be the place to indoctrinate children. They’ll get enough of that through media and the people around them.

@tinyfaery Perhaps schools shouldn’t be a place to indoctrinate children, but they are. Any education is a form of indoctrination. You choose what to include and what to leave out. Evolution or not? Black studies or not? Gay studies or not? What children are exposed to is indoctrination. There is no way around it, as far as I can tell.

What are you proposing?

@daloon I agree that cultures do change. I also agree that it is quite difficult to be part of another’s culture without some level of assimilation going on and that people do learn to adapt to the culture they are living in. But I would disagree that “assimilation simply happens to people” and that in time they come to accept the values of the other culture etc… What I’m saying is that for many cultures they are very aware of what level of assimilation occurs and do have quite a bit of control over what is happening. It is not always something that ‘just happens to you’. I simply do not like the mindset that ‘people will become assimilated whether they like it or not’. It’s very black and white when in reality there is a lot of grey involved. And the black and white ideology of assimilation has caused a lot of harm to people of many different cultures. I also think it is this mindset that creates school systems that are very culturally insensitive and that insensitivity creates barriers to cultural understanding and education in general.

I also agree with your point of decision that when it comes to actual harm of another person. Abuse of some sort or physical violence then we have a choice wether to respect that cultural aspect or not. However I would argue two points.
1. That not allowing girls on field trips is a matter of gender equality and at that level is not considered abuse simply because we don’t understand their cultural values. Now if the women were standing up saying ‘we don’t want this’ then yes it would be abuse.
2. That the defining line is not always what is ‘legal’ and what is not. Many cultures still do not have freedom of religion. As is true for my culture. Although the school systems would be tied in this matter in which I understand however I am discussing this particular point on a purely moral basis.

Perhaps this is all a bit nit-picky but coming from a culture who has faced harm due to forced assimilation I will jump at the chance to be nit-picky.

@JLeslie I disagree that it seems to me the groups that have assimilated the least have the hardest time doing “well” in America. In fact many people who choose not to assimilate do just fine in America. It is the people who believe they must be assimilated who create barriers for them. It is not they who are creating barriers for themselves.

Although I do completely agree with your point that you can have both worlds. If that be your choice. It is possible and often times that is the choice most people make, whether by preference or necessity.

@RedPowerLady I agree with the statement you made to @daloon That not allowing girls on field trips is a matter of gender equality and at that level is not considered abuse simply because we don’t understand their cultural values. Now if the women were standing up saying ‘we don’t want this’ then yes it would be abuse. I have a feeling he will too, because both daloon and I said that it is up to the parent to sign the field trip form in the first place, I respect that, and I think he does too. Although the OP makes it seem as though they do not ask for parental permission, it is simply compulsory. I would be on teh side of having to get parental permission.

Now, for your answer directed at me. I wonder if we are talking about different things? I have three questions. 1. What specifics do you want to see provided in schools, that are not already, that would solve the problem you are concerned about? That you think are contributing to the droput rate as you suggested? 2. What do you perceive as barriers being put up by people? 3. How are you defining assimilation?

You are likely right that there is no difference of opinion on that first point I made to @daloon. I just thought it was a nice way to highlight the difference in viewing what could be considered harm but really isn’t (as the asker does seem to think it is harmful).

Wow those are seriously loaded questions you asked me.
I’m on my way to work right now. I’ll answer this a bit later today (probably at work, hehe). In the meantime I could ask you what makes you think we are talking about different things? I think it is simply a different perspective. I am really sensitive to the issue of cultural assimilation because of the history of violence my people (and others) have faced due to assimilation. And unfortunately we have to continue to fight this battle, often in the school systems, even today. I have many friends from cultural communities who are educators or even on school-boards and they fight this battle so often they get tired and worn-out discussing it.

@JLeslie and @RedPowerLady I do agree with @RedPowerLady‘s points. I don’t think I said what I meant very well. I guess what we are talking about is the difference between assimilation due to rubbing shoulders and forced assimilation that is quite overt about wiping out a culture (or even covert about it). I am talking about the former, not the latter.

I believe in cultural sensitivity, and I think there is far too little of it in many schools around this nation. In fact, I think that multi-cultural education, where it is not a joke, is a very important tool for educators. I think the point of departure, or the default position should be one of respect for another culture, no matter how much it punches your buttons. You should respect it at least until you find out where the traditions are coming from. If the Mayans were around, I would not respect human sacrifice, to provide an extreme example.

I think it is very important for people to learn from other cultures. I think it is one of the best ways of learning, period. I think a lot of creativity comes from different cultures rubbing each other’s shoulders respectfully. Musical fusion is an example of what I am talking about here. As always, I think that sources should be attributed. I know that native tribes in Australia are sensitive about whites taking their traditions such as dijerdu playing and the concept of dreamtime, and just doing what they want with it. It is disrespectful to take aspects of a culture without trying to understand their role in the culture. The same might be true when I buy a story telling doll, if I did not ask for a story that comes with it.

On the other hand, I do not think that learning about another culture and taking things you like from it, and incorporating them into your own life is “appropriation,” so long as you try to understand where these things come from. I’ve participated in sweats—once inside the tent, and once outside, drumming. I was just making it up as I went along—my role, I mean—but I think that it was part of my attempts to learn about these traditions, even if they were not being run by people from the tradition.

Sometimes I think that native peoples are shooting themselves in their own feet when they try to keep their traditions purely for themselves. The process can happen the other way. Whites can assimilate aspects of native culture. Why is this called “appropriation” instead of assimilation?

@RedPowerLady I just think maybe I don’t “see” what you do. Kind of like our conversation on the thanksgiving. I am not understanding the minority perspective maybe, so I thought I would ask more specific question to know what specifically you are referring to when you talk about schools not being understanding, or people becoming assimilated.

I have empathy for Native Americans, and Black people who’s family were brought as slaves, because in one case Europeans took over the land that is now America and Blacks did not freely come to this land. But this legacy sometimes keeps the hatred going, keeps the child from feeling a part of the country they are part of. School is there to prepare you for the reality of where you live, it does not have to take away from the love, traditions and rituals of your own culture. Asians have very low drop out rates, and they are coming from very different cultures, but part of this might be due to the education level of their parents? That I am not sure. Which brings up another point that I think dropouts rates do have something to do with the education level of the parents and socio-economics, maybe more than ethnicity.

But, again I think maybe I am not understanding fully, and am certainly willing to hear your side out.

Then again, @JLeslie, are you not from a people who, for the longest time, did not have a land of their own? Forever strangers in strange lands?

@daloon Yes. That is why I usually think the perspective of the minoirty is very important. They, the minority themselves, knows best when they are being offended. So I think it very important to understand their position.

The “group” I am affiliated with, that you are referring to, have been overall successful in education and prosperity in America. Jews, though, when they came to America were grateful for the opportunity to be in a land where they could feel safe. Many of them did not pass down their mother tongue to their children, for fear they might have accents (unfortunately) and wanted their children to assimilate and be accepted. They did not see a major conflict with being Jewish and being American. It may seem now like Jews get equal time in America, but back when my parents were growing up there were not chanukah decorations, and people still changed their names to hide their judaism, but they took advantage of what America had to offer. Now, it is better, we are more accepting of all races and ethnicity and I submit, there is not a conflict with being Black and American, Asian and American, Native American and American, you can have both.

I do not feel Jews have lost their identity by being American, and certainly there are very religious Jews, Hasidic Jews, who are much like the Amish in how exclusive they are. They generally have their own schools.

But again, maybe I am missing something? That is why I am interested in more specifics from @RedPowerLady

@daloon Thanks for that last response. It was quite clear and I enjoyed reading it :)

I think the distinction you make between appropriating one’s culture and using aspects of it for your personal benefit is a very important distinction. I am hugely against appropriation but at the same time if someone wants to learn an aspect or two to enrich their lives I am hugely in favor of educating them.

In terms of this statement _Sometimes I think that native peoples are shooting themselves in their own feet when they try to keep their traditions purely for themselves. The process can happen the other way. Whites can assimilate aspects of native culture. Why is this called “appropriation” instead of assimilation? _
I think you would have to provide an example. I fight against appropriation all the time but not at the level of individual benefit, at the level you previously mentioned. Native peoples fight appropriation when it harms their culture not when it benefits someone else. Sometimes the two overlap and that is when it get sticky.

Whites can assimilate aspects of native culture. Why is this called “appropriation” instead of assimilation?

It’s appropriation only when one uses it for their own benefit at the detriment of the culture itself.

I don’t agree. School is where you learn how to think not what to think.

You can teach history from all sides. You can read books from all cultures, learn art and music of other cultures, learn other languages. Good teachers with good training can do this, and should.

@JLeslie First I can clarify one point that is quite simple to explain. Why do “Asians” have lower drop-out rates or are seen as better students? Well this is for a couple of reasons. The simple reason is that many “Asians” are true immigrants, meaning they come to the country, many times they are expecting to assimilate. They teach their children the same. And therefore their children are expected to do well in school and that is a value in the household. This is true for many immigrant families. It is a whole separate dynamic from ethnic groups that are not immigrating here such as Black populations and Native American populations. Of course this is seriously over-simplified but the point is that immigrant populations (or those whose parents/grandparents were immigrants) have a different history and relationship to the country than non-immigrant populations.
The more complex reasoning behind this is because “Asian” people are seen on the other end of the spectrum of oppression. They are romanticized. This is due to their history of oppression being led by a different set of history than that of other ethnic groups. It is still stereotyping and oppressive to expect them to be ‘smarter’ etc..

I agree with you @tinyfaery . Ideally school should be where you learn how to think and not what to think.

@tinyfaery I agree. Who is saying they don’t agree with that?

@RedPowerLady I’ve heard that some native Americans have real problems with the…. I don’t know what to call it—- spread of the sweat lodge technology. I consider tools used to get people into spiritual journeys to be spiritual technology.

In any case, I’ve heard that there are Lakota who believe that the whites who came to them and participated in sweats have then gone home and are selling themselves as sweat facilitators. The Lakota who object to this, as I understand it, believe that the people who appropriate the technology are using it either incorrectly, or foisting it off as a native tradition, when, in fact, the facilitators know next to nothing about where the ceremony comes from, nor what it means, nor the dangers involved.

So, is that an appropriation? Or is that assimilation of a native spiritual technology into the surrounding community? Is it fair trade? Is it a gift, freely given, or is it theft? Does it make a difference if you just call it a “sweat” or if you say it is based on an experience with a shaman or a native? Didn’t we have this conversation before?

@JLeslie

1. What specifics do you want to see provided in schools, that are not already, that would solve the problem you are concerned about? That you think are contributing to the droput rate as you suggested?

I’m not sure how long of an answer to give here. I could probably come up with a hundred and more suggestions. Essentially the education system as it is now I have major issues with. The lack of funding for appropriate education surely contributes to the areas in which they are lacking.

But here are some ideas:
– Cultural competence training for all teachers and those in the education field by people of color. And with that goes accountability for culturally insensitive actions. I expect schoolboards to support parents when they come and ask for a teacher to be held accountable for their actions. As it is now this rarely happens.
– Multi-cultural education by people of color or at least a curriculum developed by people of color even if the teachers are not. This means that instead of teaching only flutes in music class we teach different cultural music. More importantly we get rid of all the history books that exist today and start teaching history written by both the “winners” and “losers” of history. As it is now they teacher history written by those in power.
– More staff of color or even staff who aren’t of color but have had experience with nontraditional cultures.
– Respect for the traditions and learning styles of students of color. If students need foot baths and their families supply them then why not? If students want to wear Eagle feathers during their graduation then why not? Understanding learning styles is deeply important here as well. For example Native students have a history of learning orally and not through written academia. This can be a huge barrier in the education of Native students.
– And of great importance is this concept. Teachers teach as though they have a multicutlural class. They do not get to teach as if most of their students are white, middle class, protestants. And yes that is how most teachers still teach. How many times can I remember teachers allowing the “n-word” to be read aloud in class. How many times have teachers actually said “the poor class does this…” speaking as if there are not poor students in their class. This is one aspect that really leads to drop-out rates. Students feeling isolated and like those who are in power have no respect for their culture or even themselves as individuals from a non-traditional culture.

2. What do you perceive as barriers being put up by people?

Could you clarify?

3. How are you defining assimilation?

Assimilation has a few different meanings. Essentially there is forced assimilation and passive assimilation. Either way I define assimilation itself the same way the dictionary does: ” to bring into conformity with the customs, attitudes, etc., of a group, nation, or the like” To conform to the customs of others. Many times this means implicitly that you are expected to put on the shoes of those you are conforming to and either burn your own shoes or leave them at home. I suggest people can walk in their own shoes and still fit into a world that is different from their own.

@RedPowerLady here are some stats on Asians http://www.childtrendsdatabank.org/tables/1_Table_1.htm. I agree with your summation about the Asians, as I stated I understand it is different to have your land taken from you or to have been brought to this country against your will, but if you can observe the success of the Asians and the Jews for that matter, why do you resist their example? Assimilation did well by them, IF your goal is to be educated and prosperous in America. You seem to be resisting the path that has been proven successful, as @daloon said shooting yourselves in the foot. I am not trying to preach my perspective, but maybe explain how the oustide world looks at it. I think I said above that the legacy, the bitterness passed on through generations in my opinion hurts your children, unless they willingly want to choose a Native American lifestyle that is not mainstream America, like the Amish and Hasidic Jews, but if you WANT and if you define success in America as being mainstream America then lets say you have to be “indoctrinated” I guess to a certain extent, although I hate to use the word. It is not giving in.

Just the other day on Oprah, Oprah said again how awful she thinks it is that when black people speak English well other blacks say, “why are you talking like a white guy.” I have heard people argue that some of the mistakes in language are because of the native African language they spoke. I understand that argument, my husband has some of that because his first language is Spanish, but I would not excuse in my children who were raised here. Again, I find this to be another example of people trying to keep their identity and shooting themselves in the foot.

@daloon Yeah I have a problem with that too. It’s not the spread of Sweat Lodge technology that is inappropriate. After all anyone can go to a sauna. That is sweat lodge technology. However holding a Sweat Lodge ceremony when you are not Native or rather when this ceremony has not been passed onto you by a Native Water-Pourer (someone deemed appropriate to lead the ceremony) is inappropriate. This is even true for many Native people. Native people themselves often need approval to run the ceremony. The reason it is inappropriate is because it is a religious ceremony that people are taking and using for themselves. It is to the detriment of the culture because when one runs a Sweat Lodge and they have not been deemed to do so they are not following all the necessary rules of the sweat lodge. I suppose it is difficult for someone who doesn’t have ceremony to understand. But you just don’t go take some holy water from the church and start sprinkling on people, that would be considered rude and offensive to the true spirit of holy water. Same with Sweat Lodge.

This example In any case, I’ve heard that there are Lakota who believe that the whites who came to them and participated in sweats have then gone home and are selling themselves as sweat facilitators. The Lakota who object to this, as I understand it, believe that the people who appropriate the technology are using it either incorrectly, or foisting it off as a native tradition, when, in fact, the facilitators know next to nothing about where the ceremony comes from, nor what it means, nor the dangers involved. Is appropriation. There is no question or doubt about it. You don’t go take someone else’s ceremony without knowing anything about it and then use it for your own benefit. Especially these people who then build a Sweat and bring others in. They are then teaching more and more people what a Sweat is and they are teaching it wrong which is offensive and spreading stereotypes. Even worse is when they charge people to participate. It would be like charging people to attend church (even worse charging them to attend church without a pastor and without ever having read the bible). I really don’t understand how this could be considered anything but cultural theft??

If someone wants the benefit of Sweat Lodge why not participate in it correctly??? << That is the key question.

maybe we did discuss this before although honestly i have this discussion all too often and forget with whom

@JLeslie Assimilation did well by them, IF your goal is to be educated and prosperous in America. You seem to be resisting the path that has been proven successful, as @daloon said shooting yourselves in the foot

This purely depends on what you consider to be successful. I suggest to you that by the pure nature of our culture success is defined in different terms. Many do not care to be successful by these terms. Our culture is not driven by educational degrees and capitalism. Success in our culture is defined in completely different terms. And by “forcing” your ideas of success you are engaging in oppression (not ‘you’ specifically I just use that term). In fact by pursuing your definition of success our very culture can be harmed.

The bitterness passed on through generations in my opinion hurts your children

The bitterness would not exist of culturally oppression did not still exist. People are not bitter about the past. They are bitter that the harm caused by the past is still being caused today. I could provide many examples.

Just the other day on Oprah, Oprah said again how awful she thinks it is that when black people speak English well other blacks say, “why are you talking like a white guy.”
Perhaps you are confused by the point here. The point here is that we shouldn’t oppress our own culture. I’m not arguing against freedom of choice. People can assimilate if they so choose. But I argue that it should not be expected of them or thought of as “better” in any way, shape, or form.

I agree about the history. I want to know history from all perspectives.

I agree that educators should listen to parents if something has been done that is offensive, I think you can see that I care when minorities are offended. But, I also think many minorities are too sensitive and do themselves damage. I think if someone says something offensive, especially if they do not mean any harm, we have to recognize they did not have mal intent. The best thing is to be able to speak up and explain why it is innaccurate, and that we need to give our children this ability also, or for our children to say at the moment that they are offended, instead of internalizing it. We can not expect others to be perfect, and for everyone to understand your position, but certainly you/we can continue to try and educated other people on undertsanding these things.

If you want more staff of color, it seems more people of color need to get teaching degrees. If you mean that there is discrimination in hiring that is something altogether different.

If a school has a specific costume for graduation why do you want to change it? That is the costume that represents that you graduated from that school no matter what color or religion you are, I find it respectful to wear this outfit as assigned. Just like I cover my shoulders in an orthodox synagogue, even though I am not orthodox.

I was an auditory learner also, still am. I barely cracked any books, and so I did not do as well in school, this is not just a Native American thing, different students learn differently. I think you associated this with Native Americans, helps you feel like the school is not working with your people. The school is not singaling out Native Americans.

If the children are reading a book that maybe took place in the south long ago and has the word nigger in it, then that is appropriate to the history of that day. To be honest with you, I would not want this book assigned to young ages, but later in High School I think it would be ok.

I think you answered number 2 for me with number 1.

I think I slightly differ when it comes to assimilation, I think you need to wear the appropriate shoes in the appropriate places. Blue suit at IBM, sweats at the gym, cover your knees at the Vatican, you can wear whatever you want at home, with your friends, in public places (as long it conforms to the law covering appropriate parts of the body and not covering your face). Even WASP’s are not thrilled with having to wear pantyhose and a suit jacket on a hot day, but they don’t relate it to a cultural assault. I don’t think you can easily accomplish what you are trying to do.

@RedPowerLady I AGREE that success is defined many different ways. If success is getting a college degree and working at microsoft, then you have to follow the path that will get you there. If success is living on a reservation or owning a farm, then the educational needs are different. But, Math, History, Reading, Government, these classes taught in school are suposed to be basics, and then there are electives, some are catered to the area you live in, my school had 4 languages, computer programming, accounting, auto mechanics, Psychology, the list goes on. I would guess in other parts of the country they have agricultural studies, farming, etc. My school also had the opportunity to do work study and leave early in the school day to apprentice, etc. This does allow for a student to tailor their education to some extent, but of course we can do better, and some cities do it better than others.

I do not judge in any way different ideas of success, I am saying if you see people who have the success you want, you might need to follow the path they took more or less. That is how they got there. Trying to blaze a new path is much more difficult.

But, I also think many minorities are too sensitive and do themselves damage. I think if someone says something offensive, especially if they do not mean any harm, we have to recognize they did not have mal intent. The best thing is to be able to speak up and explain why it is inaccurate, and that we need to give our children this ability also, or for our children to say at the moment that they are offended, instead of internalizing it. We can not expect others to be perfect,

I can assure you that people of color do not expect others to be perfect. They are not overly sensitive either. What causes people to react strongly is that this is usually not the first time something is happened. In a fantasy world the “minority” speaks up and then the teacher learns from their mistake. In reality the teacher brushes it off and keeps making the same mistake. I have seen this happen so many times with my nieces and nephews, when I was in school, with my friend’s children. Ick. Not only that but you also have to keep in mind that it is the responsibility of the teacher to know what is appropriate and what is not. The “minority” is always expected to be the educator and it is tiresome. We have educated and educated but so many times people refuse to listen. The teacher is in charge and is responsible for knowing how to act appropriately around their children. Having said that yes they can make some mistakes, we all do, but that means they are accountable to these mistakes. Like I said, in reality, teachers are told they were wrong but continue the behavior anyway.

If you want more staff of color, it seems more people of color need to get teaching degrees. If you mean that there is discrimination in hiring that is something altogether different.

Yep that is reality again. There is huge discrimination in hiring AND specifically in educating people of color. At my local college there was a huge debate about how they were treating “minority” students within the education curriculum. Again drop-outs happen at this level because of the insensitivity. Going back to hiring practices. I’ve been on hiring committees at the college level. If you want a person of color to be hired then you have to pull teeth. Typically the only people of color hired are people who are hired to teach multicultural studies. There are tons of stats on this.

If a school has a specific costume for graduation why do you want to change it? That is the costume that represents that you graduated from that school no matter what color or religion you are, I find it respectful to wear this outfit as assigned. Just like I cover my shoulders in an orthodox synagogue, even though I am not orthodox.

Actually it’s not changing the costume it is attaching a little representation of your culture to it. It is a cultural tradition to honor someone in this way. Anyhow this is a public school system and not a private school (or a church/synagogue) so children should be allowed to uphold their cultural beliefs. A case in point about cultural sensitivity.

I was an auditory learner also, still am. I barely cracked any books, and so I did not do as well in school, this is not just a Native American thing, different students learn differently. I think you associated this with Native Americans, helps you feel like the school is not working with your people. The school is not singaling out Native Americans.

Uh it was an example. Of course all students learn differently. My point wasn’t that schools are singling out Native children. My point was they do not adapt to alternatively learning styles when necessary. Children of all cultures could benefit by teachers being sensitive to this.

If the children are reading a book that maybe took place in the south long ago and has the word nigger in it, then that is appropriate to the history of that day. To be honest with you, I would not want this book assigned to young ages, but later in High School I think it would be ok.

I don’t think it is inappropriate to allow children to read this book. It is however inappropriate to have them read the “n-word” aloud because we are not in the old deep south anymore. We now know it is wrong and just because it was written down when they didn’t know it was wrong (but it still was) does not make it any more appropriate. Imagine being a Black child in a class where they were constantly reading hate-influenced words aloud. Psychological studies have been conducted that state this is severely detrimental to children of color. And not so surprisingly they also found that racial tensions run high when this is allowed and non-“minorities” often get targeted during this period of time. If we know it hurts students there is no reason to continue the practice.

Even WASP’s are not thrilled with having to wear pantyhose and a suit jacket on a hot day, but they don’t relate it to a cultural assault.
This is completely different because they have not faced histories of oppression that tell them if they don’t follow the “right” way they will be tortured, murdered, beat up etc…

I don’t think you can easily accomplish what you are trying to do.
Ya fighting racism, oppression, and cultural insensitivity is never easy. Doesn’t make it wrong.

@RedPowerLady I forgot the Oprah reply. Are you saying it is ok for people to speak horrible English that is almost impossible to understand? I maintain these people should be “bilingual” keep their dialect at home and when out should speak well enunciated English. An accent is fine I have no problems with that.

@JLeslie I do not judge in any way peoples different ideas of success, I am saying if you see peopple who have the success you want, you might need to follow the path they took more or less. That is how they got there.

The truth is that assimilation comes with oppression. There is no reason someone shouldn’t be able to keep their cultural beliefs and be an executive. However studies show that the more ethnic you look the less likely you are to get hired. Even if your expertise is higher than anyone else. By saying that people must follow “this exact path” to get to this point you are forcing assimilation on that people. Forced assimilation is never beneficial, not to society and not to the individual. This expectation that one should assimilate to get to where they want leads this idea that forced assimilation is necessary when in fact it is not.

Trying to blaze a new path is much more difficult.

Ya it sure is but it might allow them to keep their culture as well. It might allow them to be more comfortable with who they are. New paths are never easy but blazing a new path has got us where we are today.

About Oprah. Actually I’m not arguing the point of Ebonics/good English at all. What I’m saying is that the point is not whether or not people should use good English. The point was that people should not oppress their own group. Like you said if someone says you are “white” for talking a certain way. That is oppressing your own group. You should allow people to assimilate if they like. But not expect them to. That is why I said the point was probably missed by many people.

just noticed my typos, all bazillion of them, apologies

uh should correct this : And not so surprisingly they also found that racial tensions run high when this is allowed and non-“minorities” often get targeted during this period of time

to this: and “minorities” often get targeted by non-“minorities”.

I don’t like the idea that a bunch of reading material that has the n-word in it. I’m thinking one book, I mean how many classes are you taking on the old south anyway? I believe you when you say it can increase racial tension.

I also understand your statement of associating things with being tortured and murdered. I don’t know if you saw my post on a different thread a while ago stating that when I went to college some kids had swastika’s drawn on their dorm door. My girlfriend’s boyfriend asked me why everyone (meaning the Jews on campus) were making such an issue of it. I told him because it means to us that someone wants to kill us. He said, “but it is just a thing someone drew on the door.” But, I don’t see how asking you to conform to a dress code makes you summon up feelings of fear? Everyone is asked to conform. Everyone.

I agree with your Oprah point, thank you for clarifying.

Assimilation is being argued very strongly by some in Europe now, to get back to the OP. That assimlation is better, and the lack of it, and the allowance of letting people stay strongly to their cultural roots is hurting some countries, and there is a fear of hate developing against these groups. Specifically they are talking about Muslim Arabs. I wish I could remember the names of the books off the top of my head. My sister would know.

I think you might like the Canadian model better than the American one, they seem to try to include ethnicities more than the US.

You know my husband is foreign born and he does not mind conforming. He does mind hate, discrimination, and disrespect, that is something else.

By the way I respect your opinions, I hope you are not finding this antagonistic. :)

@JLeslie Oh ya I just mean one book, not a bunch of them. Often in lit. class they will have people read books that are ‘classics’ but unfortunately have the ‘n-word’ in them. Culturally sensitive teachers address the issue and ask their class not to speak the word aloud but instead give the students more appropriate words to use instead. That is how it should be done, IMHO, and it should never be allowed to be said in a school.

Let me give you an example for the dress codes and how they can summon up fear. In Native American cultural history there was a very long period of time (ending in the 90s believe it or not) where Native children were literally kidnapped and forced into boarding schools. The idea of the boarding school was to assimilate the children. The saying goes: “Kill the Indian, Save the Man”. The first thing they did was cut the child’s hair and force them into “Anglo” clothing. They’ve done tons of studies on this and it is one of the primary ways that people strip someone of their humanity, by forcing them to wear (or not wear) certain clothing. Now if a child was caught wearing something cultural they’d often be beat or worse. And to make matters worse many children were raped, tortured, beat, and died in boarding schools. So you can see how something as simple as having a dress code can have oppressive connotations, especially since this was very recent history. Now of course this is all outside of my point that allowing someone to add something to a public school graduation uniform to honor their culture is not harmful in any way and is in fact culturally insensitive.
BTW thank you for sharing your story. That makes perfect sense to me.

I would hate to be in those European countries you are talking about with my viewpoints, yikes. I don’t see how culture hurts a country, seems like this stems from ignorant ideology. Of course I know nothing of the debate so I really can’t comment much on it.

I have heard the same thing about some Canadian models.

Hey a lot of people don’t mind conforming. I just argue for those who do ;)

I am not finding it antagonistic at all. Thank you for saying so. I believe everyone has a right to their own opinion. Please don’t think I’m trying to change yours. I just like the opportunity for both of us to be able to express ours to each other :)

@RedPowerLady Well you are really making me thing. I am not in agreement with forced boarding school, or forcing a child to cut their hair, but I am VERY pro uniforms in school, which might include having to have your hair back if it is very long. My idea is if you want to be treated the same you have to conform to some extent, because teachers are human, and in some cases idiots, as you have pointed out. The less a teacher can figure out about the families wealth or status, the more likely the teacher will not favor a particular child, AND also the more likely peers of the child will not judge them either. You have to deal with your reality. I do not mean hide their ethnicity though. My neice and nephew’s school each child got a chance to bring in food from their country/culture and talk about it. I think cultural understanding and knowledge is a great thing, and I think the more we know about each other the better and schools should encourage this.

@JLeslie You may be surprised to know that I am pro-uniform as well, with limitations. For example if a person needs to wear a cultural hat or wrap on their head (as I believe many religions/cultures require) then they should be able to wear it. And if someone wants an eagle feather at their graduation or during a cultural education day then they should be able to have that. There aren’t many exceptions but I can see a few that make sense. Or if a girl felt the need to wear pants instead of a skirt then I think she should have that option (or even visa versa, meaning men skirt, but they’d have to have a really good reason).

Talk about typos, my last post is horrible. should be…you are really making me THINK, and my niece and nephew brought food and talked about their family’s country of orgin and different traditions. :)

@JLeslie I figured it out, no worries :)

I have read up a bit on why honour culture is such a big deal, and it comes down to two thing:

1) It’s against our Swedish values and beliefs of equity
2) It’s breaking our laws and rules, both laws of education and rules of human rights (all children should have the same opportunity and chance to education and to grow up in a safe environment)

@RedPowerLady One question that occured to me about wearing the feathers is…do the kids want to do it, or would they rather fit in and be like their friends? Is it the parents and the home culture that is making a child feel badly if they don’t wear the proper garb?

I am all for cultural understanding, but I look at the success of my people and we tried our best to conform, OR we lived very separately with our own schools in tight knit communtities. We, who were mainstreamed, so to speak, typically didn’t wear yamaka/yamurlke’s. Some went as far as to change their last names (Dinah Shore, Kirk Douglas, Ralph Lauren and many many more).

Over time America has become more accepting and less racist/prejudiced, so it becomes more and more a non-issue.

But, my point would be don’t cut off your nose to spite your face.

If you are nervous that some of your culture might be lost, I understand that. I understand wanting to keep your culture, traditions, religion alive, and probably there will be some “loss” to assimilation, but isn’t that the better choice? Isn’t the most important thing that your line continues, that your people are successful (however you define success). Many will maintain the culture and traditions, even if they seem to pull away as young people they tend to come back.

@jazzjeppe So then how have they handled these questions in the past? Is everyone basically forced to follow through on the compulsory requirements? Do they just get a lower grade then?

@JLeslie Well, it is a difficult issue about “free or fail”. For instance we would only allow kids in compulsory school to be away for holiday or trips, no more than a week a year. That’s the official rule. But we can’t do anything, and don’t do anything, if parents decide to “go anyway” and give a crap about whether the school has said no or not.

Not forced. We can’t force anyone to come to school, but we can make sure we have done all we can do, in order to get them to school. Like work with anti-bullying, report to the social security office if we believe that the child is living in a home where it gets hurt etc. There are many reasons why kids might not follow through compulsory school and every time it happens, school (and politicians, the society/community) has failed. Of course it effects the grades if a student don’t show up in school – not completing certain courses etc makes it hard for us to pass them on courses.

@jazzjeppe I think it is pretty narrow minded and I suggest you follow all the advice given above.

It is a huge honor to receive an eagle feather. When one graduates high school they typically receive one and it is a really big deal. For that reason they want to wear it when they graduate. To honor their culture and it is only one little feather, it makes no difference to the graduation gown, it’s just a tiny addition. It would be similar to giving someone a stole or a tassel for being an honors student. Just another way to honor a student but it is culturally appropriate. No one makes a kid feel like they have to wear one, that is just silly. I’ve never met a Native who didn’t want to wear one though, it is just such a big honor.

If you are nervous that some of your culture might be lost, I understand that. I understand wanting to keep your culture, traditions, religion alive, and probably there will be some “loss” to assimilation, but isn’t that the better choice? Isn’t the most important thing that your line continues, that your people are successful (however you define success). Many will maintain the culture and traditions, even if they seem to pull away as young people they tend to come back.

I think the point you are missing is that I am not arguing about choice. People can make whatever choices they want for themselves, despite their culture. What I am arguing against is oppression. One form of that is forced assimilation. This is where the society expects and often forces someone to abide by their values and if you don’t you receive consequences. The consequences can be minor such as people talking about you behind your back to huge such as being tortured by someone committing a hate crime. In between would be not being able to get a good job, home, not being able to practice your religious beliefs despite the fact they aren’t harmful. All of these things happen to people of color on a daily basis. This persistent idea that somehow it is better to assimilate is just a form of continuing to oppress people of color. It is so subtle that most people do not recognize what they are doing. Instead of arguing consistently that assimilation is for the best why not argue that allowing self-determination is best? That is when a people get to choose for themselves what rules they want to live by (so long as they follow federal laws or the laws are challenged in the appropriate way).

It’s not nervousness about something being lost. It is a reality. No one stops their youth from assimilating if that is what they want. Like I said this is not about choice. That’s all fine and dandy. This is about force from one culture onto another. This perpetuation of the idea that one should have to live a certain idea to be successful. So what I am arguing for is the people who make the choice not to assimilate (as much as is possible). That they should be able to determine for themself, without input from another culture, how they want to live. That they should be able to practice their religion. That if they do choose to go to public school they should not have to hear the history of their people being read in a way that is clearly false. That if you choose to wear an eagle feather at graduation no one gives a hoot. Etc… Self-determination harms no one. The only reason to fight for assimilation instead of self-determination is by lack of cultural empathy.

@RedPowerLady fair enough. I agree that I am against opression and racism. I think it is a good thing to fight for accuracy in history books as I have said. I am trying to put myself in that childs place. If I had a special shawl in judaism for graduating, I don’t think I would want to wear it at my graduation, but that is me, maybe I would wear it at my graduation party for family and friends. I am perfectly willing to accept children in your community might feel differently, that is why I asked.

I think you understand it is about choice, but I worry many in your culture think it is about pride and respect. Again, I think they might be choosing a more difficult path instead of accepting some of the expectations in society today in our country to be successful.

@JLeslie The path is more difficult, that is for sure. But it has greater rewards. That is what many believe.

Also I don’t really know anyone who fights societies expectations to the point it is hugely detrimental. I guess that would have to be taken at a case by case example.

It doesn’t really matter if people make their choices based on pride, respect, or any other matter. That is their choice. Just like it is the choice of others to make their decision because things are “easier” which to me is a poor way to make a choice. That is self-determination. And you can’t fight for it without fighting this idea that assimilation is somehow better.

I’m not sure I can continue this conversation without having any examples. I am really quite confused about where you are coming from in all honesty. For example I don’t know why you would be concerned that “many in your culture think it is about pride and respect.” or what expectations you are talking about in this statement “might be choosing a more difficult path instead of accepting some of the expectations in society today in our country to be successful”. If I knew I might be able to better articulate myself but in generalities I am just getting confused.

@RedPowerLady Today on the news they told about a young girl who was living in a family of “honour culture”. She has been physically and mentally abused by her parents and other family members and been subjected to violence. This is what I am talking about. We are talking about criminal acts when a young girl gets beaten up by her family for being in love with a boy. She has no run away from home and is scared to death to report her family to the police.

I do understand what you mean about forcing cultures upon others, but the culture I am talking about (not sure you got the alarming and sinister nature of this honour culture) is by all means destructive, violent and oppressive towards young girls. We don’t know how many of these girls are subjected to physical violence, no one really knows, but we suspect that it is common. As we have said and stated earlier, these young girls tend to adopt the way of youth live among their friends and other young people in the society, and when this happens there is a sinister conflict within the family.

I don’t want to force anything upon others, I do believe it is wrong. But I also believe that it is my duty as a teacher, an adult and human being, to do what ever I can in order to make sure that the children are safe at home. What would you do if your neighbour would be beating up their kids, or the next door husband beating up his wife? I think there is a point where it is not about forcing other values upon others, but about being human and not stand aside watching as people abuse each other. No matter if it’s verbal of physical.

I focused this thread on a certain culture that we have seen a lot of in Sweden, but we all know it’s happening everywhere. I have seen children with bruises on their bodies after being beaten up by their fathers, I have talked to children crying after a school day since they are afraid of going home, I have reported parents who sell drugs to minors in their homes… Our society isn’t all pretty and in harmony, this is something I unfortunately have had to notice lately. And it makes me sad and furious.

What makes this “honour culture” different is that abuse and oppression is a kind of valid action and again, which is unacceptable in our country. I don’t want to be this harsh and sound narrowminded, but as someone said in the beginning: they have chosen to come here and they need to hear about what rules and laws we follow in our society. If they don’t like it, fine, move on. Rules and laws are made up to create order and at some point we all need to obey them if we want to live in a safe and secure society. They, I, the drunk father next door, we all have to obey that. No exception. I would report a father who beat up his kid any day and then the colour of the skin, religion or culture would mean nothing to me. If I would stand aside not doing anything now because I want to be careful not showing myself as someone who is forcing values upon others, I wouldn’t be fair to anyone.

Oppression, abuse, violence is wrong in any shape and as a teacher, adult and human being I have to act.

@jazzjeppe You cannot condemn an entire culture by the act of one family, or several for that matter.

@RedPowerLady I am not condemning a culture, I am condamning actions, as I wrote in my last post. There might be a chance that this thread has been wrong from the beginning due to language barriers. When I am talking about a culture I am not talking about like nationalities, ethnic groups or communities, but about a group of people that have one thing in common. You are not a part of this “Honour culture” (an English translation of our Swedish term and I tried to Google it and couldn’t find an equivalent in English. There might actually be a chance that this is a Sweden only phenomena) because you come from a certain country or anything, it’s what you do. The term is made up by institutions in order to, well, call the phenomena something.

Found this article on an English written Swedish newspaper which might bring abit more light to the concersation :):

‘Honour’ culture common in Stockholm
Published: 14 Apr 09 13:25 CET
Dictionary tool Double click on a word to get a translation

More than 4,000 teenagers in Stockholm are exposed on a daily basis to cultures of honour that involve traditions which run counter to Swedish law, according to an estimate based on a new official study.
Young man charged over balcony killing (16 May 08)
Sweden funds fight against honour crimes (8 Feb 08)
Violence and repression are regular occurrences for a large section of 16-year-old school goers in the city centre and suburbs, according to a study commissioned by local politicians.

Ulf Kristersson (Mod), Commissioner of Social Services, is one of a number of politicians surprised and outraged by the findings.

“It’s not permitted for adults, not even parents, to prevent children from living full, independent lives,” he told Sveriges Television.

The results come from a survey of a cross section of more than 2,000 pupils.

Almost a quarter of female respondents, 23 percent, said they were expected to retain their virginity until marriage and were not allowed to have a boyfriend. Sixteen percent of girls were not allowed to have male friends or decide whom they would marry.

Seven percent of girls and three percent of boys said they were exposed to serious violations in the form of threats and violence.

And ten percent of girls and four percent of boys said their lives were limited to the extent that they could not live in the same way as other people their own age.

The majority of teenagers who matched the honour culture profile have parents born outside Sweden.
TT/The Local (news@thelocal.se/08 656 6518)

Also, I found this: http://stop-stoning.org/node/496

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article2801016.ece

I’m going to read what you’ve given me and then respond. Thank you for giving me something to look at.

I think so far however that there should be a difference noted between honor killing and honor crime and honor culture.

Perhaps when it comes to the specific action. Killings is the extreme version, but we have also out of experience (we as in Sweden) seen that cases have al these things in common.

Take your time! I enjoy talking with you, but now I’m going to the sofa for some Friday night movie watching :)

And there might have been a language issue here from the start. Sorry :) (told ya, my English might sound okay, but when it comes to deeper conversation and topics, I lack vocabulary and expressions)

So from what I understand ‘honor killings’ take place in certain cultures when a woman/girl steps ‘out of line’. ‘Honor crimes’ can be quite similar to this. And ‘honor culture’ simple refers to people who use these acts. However the term ‘honor culture’ is also used more broadly to mean any act that treats girls differently than men as in the article above: “Almost a quarter of female respondents, 23 percent, said they were expected to retain their virginity until marriage and were not allowed to have a boyfriend. Sixteen percent of girls were not allowed to have male friends or decide whom they would marry.”

Now no woman should have to live in fear that she will be murdered or somehow hurt if she does not follow her family’s belief system. I completely agree with that.

What bothers me is the very last description of ‘honor culture’ that was given above. Expecting a woman to retain her virginity is simple a cultural standard and should not be judged. What also bothers me is when someone assumes that every Arab person would take place in an ‘honor killing’ or ‘honor crime’ if given the chance.

To bring it back to the circumstance of this girl and the field trip:
1. To assume that because her family does not want her on a field trip that she is part of a family who would commit such acts is not appropriate. Although it is appropriate to keep an eye out for signs of abuse. Even if there are rumors about the girls brother which may be rumors of simple cultural ignorance.
2. If her family is one that would commit such horrible acts against their daughter then you should not pressure her to go on a field trip because you are then putting her in danger.

I think that would should really take place is to say: you can keep your cultural values. We do not expect you to have the same expectations for both men and women. But you cannot commit acts of violence against children, period (or anyone for that matter).

So having said that do we still have a debate going on here? I feel as if I still may be missing something.

Yeah, if it was for her safety I would let her stay at home, but I would start a discussion with her parents.

If there is suspected abuse I would just call the authorities. Why would the parent from a culture like that care what a Swedish teacher thinks? Or, maybe I am wrong? Aren’t you obligated to report abuse?

Or, do you mean if they simply won’t let her participate in some activities?

I thought people on this thread might be interested in a recent article and video (the article has more detail) in The Washington Post about the High School I attended and how they are handeling recent immigrants and first generation Americans regarding participation in school sports. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/05/AR2009110502877.html

They do comment within the article that Muslim girls who participated in Field Hockey were allowed to eat by their parents during Ramadan, even though it is a holiday that requires fasting.