When you think of a "white" person, how do you picture them in your mind?

Hmm. Never thought about it. I don’t really categorize.

Like this

Rhythmically challenged.

we dont dance or jump well either :P

@RareDenver I can’t be white then!!!

“Do you think that the fact we still only see in black, white and Asian rather than, say culture and ethnicity is keeping these race issues alive?”

I certainly think this is a huge problem when it comes to cultural-competence and ending oppression. Of course I’m not sure what about the previous post made you come to this conclusion, or perhaps it was just part of your thought process.

@Leanne1986 do you have slightly less stubble?

@RedPowerLady It made me think more about what I personally considered to be white (which, by the way, is not myself even though, technically I am – talk about confused!!!). It was merely inspiration which is why I love Fluther so much, most of my questions come from something that made me think in a previous question!

@RareDenver Yes, I think I may be lacking in other areas too!

I think European in origin. I think of myself as “white”: blond hair, blue eyes, some freckles, lighter skin, etc. Really, when I picture a white person, I think of the skin tone (and of course, being non-Asian). But it’s not the greatest term their is; in fact, it’s pretty poor. I rarely use it when discussing things seriously because it’s so broad and there is no agreed on definition of what it means. I think more in terms of countries and areas where a person is from, not some generalized term that refers to people of a certain skin tone.

And yes, I think it’s definitely keeping racism alive. People want to categorize things and note similarities between people with similar physical features, even though physical features have nothing to do with a person’s behavior. As far as I’m concerned, it should be entirely unimportant.

@Leanne1986 Well it is certainly an interesting question. I’m looking forward to reading everyone’s perceptions of “whiteness” and simultaneously trying to think of what my own is if I have one.

I would say that “whiteness” has less to do with skin color and more to do with privilege.

I see this guy.

@RedPowerLady

Funny, I don’t think most white supremacists are terribly privileged in society.

In 1963 the great Canadian sociologist Erving Goffman wrote a wonderful book called Stigma, about the way social positions change based upon stigmatic events in a person’s life. I am reminded of him because one of the things he said (which I believe to have been true in 1963, certainly) was that a fully non-stigmatized individual would be white, Anglo-Saxon, wealthy, educated in prep schools and Ivy League universities, with a prestigious job, and having, while in school, played on the Varsity team.

I think being white or black or latin or asian is more of a culture thing. I’ve heard people who are considered “white washed” which I guess means that they identify more with white culture instead of their actual race. I would be considered somewhere in between. I’m hispanic but I connect well with both Caucasian and Hispanic people. In fact, I get along pretty good with just about anybody. Its all just a bunch of mumba jumba. If people would just try a little harder, they would realize that we’re not all that different.

It all depends on your perspective. In the eyes of Aboriginal Australians there are 2 types of people, binning which is what they are and balinda which is what everyone else is. So I guess using that model, white is anyone who is not something esle.

glasses, acne, plaid short sleeved button down dress shirt, pocket protector, with a little penis and dancing awkwardly to coldplay.

@ABoyNamedBoobs03 Sounds beautiful!!! I’m beginning to feel less and less “white” as this thread goes on!!!

@DominicX R U Kidding me??? White supremacists are the people in power. I’m not sure what makes you think they are not? In fact in the civil rights era the majority of people in power were white supremacists and they formed societies so that it would stay that way. There are certainly less now but still existent. And that is not counting of course those who are not white supremacists but just the general population which is what I was referring to in the first place.

I just picture a random white person… And I agree that the term is too broad.

@rooeytoo In fact in college I was a research assistant for a man who is attempting to prove that fact using research. He researches primarily stereotyping and how it is formed and survived. We were researching, in part, this us vs. them attitude. It was quite interesting and it exists in many stereotypes.

@RedPowerLady

I guess I still have the image of the uneducated hick white trash white supremacist.

So you’re saying that all white people with power are white supremacists? White supremacists are generally looked down upon by society, at least around here. What of affirmative action? Is that white supremacy? Seems about as far from it as you can get…what is the evidence that white supremacists are as common as you say?

As a flesh eating mammal.

@ChazMaz: we don’t all eat meat.

@RedPowerLady – In my experience here, this us and them has led me to wonder if way too much emphasis is placed on “multi-culturalism” and not nearly enough on the common aspect which is we are all residents of Australia. The programs designed to give a boost to those who need or want it, often has the opposite effect in that it does not encourage the striving for personal achievement and causes resentment among those who are not beneficiaries of these programs which widens the gulf.

“we don’t all eat meat.”
Fruit and vegetables also have flesh.

@pdworkin- That description is missing “Male” – especially for 1963. I knew a man who was over 6’ tall, blue eyes, the first-born, etc.. He was so outraged when in his mid-30s he faced unjust discrimination in a custody situation; and I just had to say, “Welcome to the real world, Golden Boy.”

@DominicX So you’re saying that all white people with power are white supremacists?

No I never said anything like that. Are you looking for an argument or something?

As to your statement that white supremacists are looked down on. That is nice in theory. However supremacy comes in many forms.

@rooeytoo I’m not sure I understand completely what you are saying but maybe that is because my opinion differs. I am a very big advocate for cultural education. I think it closes gaps and does not open them.

@RedPowerLady

You said “white supremacists are the people in power” without much clarification. Maybe if that were more specific, I would not have said that, and no, I didn’t really think that’s what you meant, but I had to clear that up before I responded any further. I’ve met many the loon on this site.

What are the other forms of “supremacy”? To me it seems that supremacy is the belief that other people are inferior to you because of physical characteristics, in other words: racism. Yes, of course racism still exists; I just mean in general racism is looked down upon. True, explicit racism. I question what you think “whiteness” has to do with “privilege” and what are examples of it? I’m not arguing; I want to understand the link between the two that you purported earlier.

Re: White people are people who are not something else.

That makes white folks sound like they are people without a history and culture of their own. I know lots of Celts and Germanics that would deny that. People descended from Europeans have a culture, too! Not better than anyone else’s (which is where White Supremacists get stuck), but a culture nonetheless.

@DominicX What I meant by “supremacy comes in many forms” is that it can be open and expressed, it can be subtle but powerful, it can come from sheer ignorance. There are a lot of people who are supremacists but don’t identify themselves as such. There are others who do identify themselves as such but deny they are racist. When I was in high school another student promptly told us, seeing that my friend was not light-skinned, that she was a Nazi and so was her family but they weren’t racist. Interesting. So my point was that the public looks down on open supremacy in most cases (of course not always) but the more hidden forms often go unchastized.

In terms of my statement that I would say that “whiteness” has less to do with skin color and more to do with privilege.. This is a common sociological theme. I’ll attempt to explain although it can be complicated. Basically whiteness isn’t necessarily about color. Like @Leanne1986 said there are people who are mediterrean and more olive-skinned but still considered “white”. Also in my community there are many light-skinned (white) individuals that are considered people of color. When people discuss “whiteness” in terms of racism and oppression etc.. they are referring to the people of the majority. This is people who are light-skinned for the most part. But it also means this is people who are privileged meaning it is easier for them to get jobs, etc.. Here is a poignant description of privilege: “White privilege is being able to be a gun enthusiast and not make people immediately scared of you.” Therefore when people are discussing racism and oppression and they talk about “white” people they aren’t necessarily talking about a skin color but rather a system of oppression that gives those with light-skin certain privileges. This changes depending on the topic. So for example if you were talking about the Irish in the 19th century they would not be subject to that privilege even if they were light-skinned. And in contemporary times people like those from the Mediterranean or say Italians to be more specific, who often have darker skin tones, are often thought of as “white” because that privilege extends to them (not that they don’t have their own issues of racism but that is not poignant here).

Well, before I had read your entire question, I was imagining a white person I felt like imagining, who was this beautiful lovely Italian woman. Italian counts as white in most people’s books, although there are racist attitudes I have seen such as some people in Britain who have words for Italian and Spanish people, though I haven’t sunk to talk to them about whether they would put Italians in the “white” bucket or not. It’s all silly and depreciating.

I tend to call the phenomenon part of “tribal thinking” and “us versus them” – people have a survival pattern that does that, looking for whom to identify with and trust and agree with and gang up with against other people. It happens with various other mental buckets as well; not just skin shade or ethnic background. Mac vs. Windows vs. Linux. Types of music we like. Religious alignments. Abortion rights. Politics.

@Zaku Good point but I resent the idea of tribal thinking as the ‘bad guy’. That seems a bit inappropriate itself when discussing racial issues.

I’d be afraid of a white gun enthusiast, because my mind immediately goes to something like the Michigan Militia.

@laureth ya i think i’d be afraid too but unfortunately i live in Oregon and well lets just say it’s normal here for anyone, in fact my hubby’s boss routinely tells him about the new gun he just bought, scary

I must be white, since I am of European descent, although I am 1/8th Lakota Sioux, as well. Thrown in with the Flemish, Irish, Scottish, touch of French, dab of German, and Evelyn knows what else, I get called white. I used to mark “other” on forms that asked for my race, but I decided to stop that. People already have me pegged for white, so fuck trying to buck the system.

I guess I am also a white gun enthusiast, whatever the hell that means. I like guns, I own guns, and I have the license that makes it legal. I am a pretty good shot, and I will use a gun to hunt or for self-defense, if necessary. I don’t understand how owning guns makes a person a part of some Aryan nation white supremacy group, but there are a lot of things I don’t understand about the way people think.

Yea, what Zebra said.

@Psychedelic_Zebra the idea wasn’t that if you own guns you are Aryn, the idea was that if a “white” person owns guns no one has a problem with it because it is widely accepted, no big deal. But if a person of colors is a gun enthusiast we get scared, we label them as a gang member or something violent. it was to depict a double-standard

I know people of color that own guns, and I don’t consider them as gang-bangers or even unusual. It doesn’t scare me at all. You are propagating a stereotype based on generalities.

@Psychedelic_Zebra Ya me either. It is a social stereotype not a personal one. No it is not a stereotype I believe in and I am not propagating it. Maybe you should go back and read the original post. The idea was generated when talking about privilege, ie some people have less problems than others based on their culture or skin color because of societal stereotypes. Just to make that clear, societal stereotypes that I do not support. Thus the entire point of my posts. Someone can discuss stereotypes without believing in them.

As a white male who grew up poor -and I dont mean lower middle class poor, I mean government housing and food bank poor – I would probably want to punch someone in the face if they told me all white men have privledge.

@hookecho I do not believe ALL anybody for anything. My posts clearly stated that white privelege was not about skin color but about privelege.

Having said that if you live in the U.S, Australia, or Europe you do have privilege just by being light-skinned. It is called skin-privilege. You also have privilege by being male. That is gender privilege.

Now I grew up dirt poor too. My mom had 2 children in her home, one outside of it and she earned 9,000 a year from the state and food stamps. So I certainly understand how “class” can put someone at a disadvantage. But we cannot ignore the privileges that we do have. For example since I am light-skinned I can go into a store and be assured that I will find makeup in my own skin color. That is not true for everyone.

@RedPowerLady mea culpa. You’d be surprised the number of times I’ve brought up subjects to discuss and had to defend myself from people who thought I was supporting things everyone condemns out of hand.

@Psychedelic_Zebra Ya I completely understand. Happens a bit on here because internet communication can be so difficult when discussing complex topics.

Man, I’m male, white, blond, blue-eyed, and come from a wealthy family. I’d have it all if I weren’t gay, Catholic, and Slavic :P

I’m just having fun, here, guys…

@DominicX/Dansdescygenes: Isn’t “gay Catholic” an oxymoron?

i think of all the dance clubs where some of the stiff ones really just dont have any rythym

My mom: light hair, light eyes, white white skin, weird food tastes. Really. I don’t get midwestern, white people food. <<shudder>>

Privilege doesn’t just mean money.

@laureth exactly, there are many different privleges. A non white person who doesnt have ‘white’ privlege could have another type of privlege – wealth, family connections, a position of power within the community, ect..

I think of my sister. Very Osmond. Very, very Pat Boone.

@tinyfaery explain your take on Midwestern foods being weird, as I like the plain but good home cookin’ of the Midwest.

Everything is smothered in something, like cheese sauce, gravy, mayo gag. My grandmother was known for her chicken dumplings—balls of dough in this chicken sauce stuff (see, sauce). The rare times my mother actually cooked the food was always so bland.

Midwestern food is bland, but then, that’s why Mexican food is so popular around here. Most of the Midwesterners I know are German, and they are known for spicy sausages (and beer), but then, you also have the Norwegians, who love coffee you could stand a spoon up in, but they won’t touch anything that even smells a bit like it might be spicy. It just depends on the sub-region you are in.

Most Midwestern food is meat, potatoes, and gravy. The gravy is made from the meat drippings. In my neck of the woods, there is no such thing as a ‘vegetarian’ anything. If you want a vegetarian salad, you have to scrape the pound of ham off the top of it first.

Rememeber when quiche became popular, what, back in the 80’s? You still can’t get that around here. Thank Evelyn for that.

Most people (except for anthropologists, who look at skeletal structure more than skin color) say my daughter is white. She has one white parent and one black parent, and ended up with pale beige skin and green eyes, with curly blond hair. Most people say my son is black. He too has one white parent and one black parent, and ended up with caramel-colored skin, brown eyes, and brown nappy hair. I say both of my children are human and attractive. Period.

The notion of “white people” or a “white race” as a large group of populations contrasting with non-white or “colored” originates in the 17th century, with the beginning of the importing of dark-skinned Africans as slaves. Since we do not practice slavery in most countries today, or at least no longer claim as slaves those who look different from the rest of the population, the notion of “white people” really has no place any longer because, for one thing, very few people are actually white.

This person is pretty close to white but is actually pale pink. And so is this person. Of course, my first thought when asked to picture a white person is this guy and the second is this guy.

@Darwin: Both your children are very attractive. Perhaps your family should travel to Louisiana to see a certain Justice of the Peace?

For some reason when I read this question the first thought that came to my mind was Ted Danson but I honestly have no idea why.

@hearkat – I could send my sister-in-law. She’s a yat from New Orleans and she don’t take no guff from nobody.

@Darwin That was a nice illustration. Thank you for sharing pics of your family. Beautiful children.

@SuperMouse – Perhaps it is because he can’t jump, even if he isn’t Woody Harrelson.

@Psychedelic_Zebra if you think Norwegian food is bland you should try Polish food. My ex was Polish and she is the only person i’ve ever seen eat a baked potato with absolutly nothing on it.

@SuperMouse I died a little inside the day I saw Sam Malone in blackface.

@Darwin – good lookin kids for sure!

@rooeytoo, @hearkat, @RedPowerLady – I am happy to see that I am not alone in my opinion. However, as you can see, both are plainly human.

Trickles down from the top. As long as the government keeps dividing us by race, I think people will continue to think in terms of race. We should be past this. But, to get rid of it we have to get rid of affirmative action, quotas, and other programs in America that force us to keep track of these things. Also, race and country of origin used to fit into a neat little package, but not so anymore as people continue to move around the world. If my husbands family had moved directly to America two generations ago he would be white, but since his grandparents went to Mexico first he is Hispanic.

Marketing also keeps track of demographics and psychographics of various groups so I doubt it will go away anytime soon.

@JLeslie Actually I would argue that instead of But, to get rid of it we have to get rid of affirmative action, quotas, and other programs in America that force us to keep track of these things. We first have to get rid of the reasons these programs are needed.

@RedPowerLady

Heh. That’s what I said when I was forced to argue for affirmative action in 11th grade even though I didn’t agree with it. Needless to say, I got an A on the paper so I did something right. :) It is interesting to become an expert on a side of an argument you don’t agree with; gives you more information that you might not have otherwise bothered to learn.

@DominicX Well it is a good argument you made. I think it is a very valuable one. I have experience in a 12th grade class when I had to argue against assisted suicide. A boy in the class had a mother who used assisted suicide which i didn’t know when starting out. For a small time I really did believe what I was arguing was correct and I learned quite a bit about that side of the argument. It was not my core belief though, i agree that it is a good excercise

@RedPowerLady – here we go again, you have everything so black and white in your head, whereas mine is all gray.

I agree that the reasons for affirmative action and quotas need to be eliminated. My question is whether affirmative action and quotas do anything positive to accomplish that end or whether it causes more problems by putting unqualified people in jobs they are not capable of performing. Which causes resentment among those who were more qualified but not of the right “quota group.” I can look out of my window all day long and see an example of this. And it is not a good thing and it is causing much resentment.

I don’t know the answer, as I said I am in the gray area. But I do think that where I live, step #1 has to be make kids go to school, make them all reach the same level of achievment before the next grade, do not have special allowances for cultural disadvantage that mean you can have a 16 year old in grade 9 despite the fact he can’t read a first grade book.

My question is whether affirmative action and quotas do anything positive to accomplish that end or whether it causes more problems by putting unqualified people in jobs they are not capable of performing.

Affirmative action doesn’t really put people in jobs they are not capable of performing. What affirmative action actually says that if you have two candidates with equal skills then you should consider hiring the person of color. The idea that people are choosing someone of color over someone with higher skills is a common stereotype and myth that is destructive to the reality of the affirmative action movement. Now when this does happen, because unfortunately it does in some circumstances, the focus should be on forcing the employer to follow the actual rules of affirmative action. It is the employers fault if the accept the first Black/Brown person that applies. They should be broadening their search so they get qualified applicants.

Of course like I said earlier we wouldn’t even need affirmative action if we would focus on 1. breaking down institutional racism 2. closing the education gap (thus the poverty gap) between people of color and people of the majority.

do not have special allowances for cultural disadvantage that mean you can have a 16 year old in grade 9 despite the fact he can’t read a first grade book

I don’t think this is what happens. They don’t just say, hey you are a person of color so we are going to let your “stupidness” slide. It is that these students aren’t getting the same quality of education as other students as people of color are in disproportionately poverty-stricken neighborhoods with schools that desperately need funding.

you have everything so black and white in your head, whereas mine is all gray.

I really appreciate considerate debates not ones where users make assumptions about other people. The fact of the matter is that I do not see things in black in white. Rather I am quite educated in the field of cultural understanding so I am quite apt at making arguments for it. The reason my opinion does not budge on some issues is simply because I have gone through years of personal experience as well as tons of education on the topic so I am quite sure I know what I am talking about. I’ve already heard all sides of the argument and am simply trying to express my education on it. Hopefully to the benefit of someone else. And yes to the benefit of myself as well. I’m not saying I know it all or will never budge, of course not. But what I am clearly saying is that what you see as a black or white attitude is rather an attitude of cultural understanding that has had this same debate 100 times over.

@RedPowerLady I am unsure where to start, I probably should have stated that in my original post. Do we start by getting rid of affirmative action, and other programs that help minorities, or wait until things seem all evened out and it is unnecessary to have affirmative action? 10 years ago I would have said I lean towards getting rid of it. It is basically unAmerican, we are supposed to reward people on merit and hard work, not skin color or who you know. Then I moved to the south and I am willing to keep such programs another few years. If you look at the recent case in New Haven, CT the blacks were going to get away with not passing a test, they were going to throw out the test, when from what I understand these black members of the police department had been policeman for years, same experience as the whites, and the Hispanic who passed paid for some tutoring to be sure he was ready for the test. We all know the lower courts held in favor of the black policemen, and then the US Supreme Court just overturned it. I agree with the Supreme Court.

At my university minority students were aloud to get into the Engineering School with a lower GPA, I know this because an Asian students challenged this while I was attending, because he argued he was a minority, but the school did not recognize him. In this case it is NOT that if all things are equal let the minority have the “job” although I do agree that the premise of affirmative action specifically is simply to allow the minority to compete and be considered. It doesn’t exactly work like that in real life.

Generally, in America, I think most people do not look at someone’s race or color, I think they look at the stereotypes that are associated with certain races. I know we have touched on this before in other discussions…I think it best to conform (hair, clothing, speech) if you want to acheive your goals, especially when first starting out. Eventually, as you earn a strong reputation in your field you can individualize yourself. People don’t care that Obama is black, because he has a Harvard education, speaks well, wears mainstream clothing, etc. If he went in front of a group saying “aks” instead of ask, and using double negatives, well then he probably wouldn’t be President. It has nothing to do with color/race really.

@RedPowerLady – Where I am, affirmative action does put specific people in jobs. Whether they can do the job is not necessarily a consideration because the attitude is, they’ll learn.

Again where I am, allowing some kids to slide through the educational system happens all the time. Parents don’t send the kids to school, cultural obligations take them away from school weeks at a time. Funding is not a big problem here, finding teachers who will go to remote area schools is.

I am not being critical, your answers do sound black and white to me. Your comments above are pretty absolute. Perhaps it is because you are speaking of the USA and I am speaking of conditions where I am. I wish the answers were so clear cut. It breaks my heart to see these kids growing up in the environment they are. It is not always lack of money being poured into the problem. At some point in time, people have to simply to want to change and so far it isn’t happening very often and when it does those who strive to achieve and better themselves are ridiculed and harassed by those who don’t have the same inclination.

I am not the enemy, I hope you don’t see me that way, just someone living in the middle of a big problem and not seeing much progress made for a variety of reasons.

@JLeslie In answer to your question I vote for keep the programs until the problems are resolved. But I also vote for making sure the programs work appropriately. In your example at your school that is not the fault of affirmative action but of the school itself for reinforcing stereotypes and being too lazy to allow for appropriate affirmative action to take place. I will also agree that in this particular circumstance it has less to with actual race but in reality it has more to do with poverty. The reason affirmative action is needed is because of the educational gap between people of color and those in the majority, this is due to certain “types” of people living in poverty and not have equal access to reasonable education and other resources.

@rooeytoo

At some point in time, people have to simply to want to change and so far it isn’t happening very often and when it does those who strive to achieve and better themselves are ridiculed and harassed by those who don’t have the same inclination.

So you are suggesting that people of color don’t want to change while “white” people do. That it is about pulling yourself up from your bootstraps?? That has been proven false long ago. It is a horrible stereotype. Now in my personal life I have seen the latter happen that is why additional resources are needed for those who are in such difficult positions, i cannot argue against the latter because it is reality whether i like that or not. However I do argue that this “problem” it is not about motivation it is about the situations that led them to become so disenchanted they believe that even in trying they will fail.

Of course the difference in Nations may make this argument a bit different as you suggest. I really can’t speak to international differences, only the issue itself in general. I can say simply that those who allow children to “slip by” or hire people only because of their race are not working through affirmative action but through laziness and stereotypes. They may use affirmative action as their tool but it was not designed to be used that way. I would be in favor of there being an affirmative action officer who makes sure this process is handled correctly so stereotypes are not reinforced and so that people are getting what they actually need (vs. just being allowed to “slide by”).

Again I disagree with your personal statements about my arguments and even find them a bit offensive as I have been quite considerate so thus forward I will ignore them.

@rooeytoo I want you to know I took your point seriously about the difference between Nations so I did some research on Affirmative Action in Australia. I didn’t find much to support the idea that it isn’t working. If you research Affirmative Action in the US there are tons of sites that are pro and tons that are con. I had a hard time finding a con one for Australia. I don’t know if your country limits that information or what. So I’m not sure I’m getting the entire picture.

I did find one major difference and that is that affirmative action in Australia was created to help women while in American it was created to help women and even moreso to help people of color.

I’m not really making an argument but rather showing what I learned.

http://www.wisenet-australia.org/ISSUE41/myth.
(this article discusses common myths about affirmative action, it seems very similar to US affirmative action and did not make me think that it was not working properly but rather it was needed)

http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/183_05_050905/par10021_fm.html
(this article was a shining example of how affirmative action is helpful for people of color and allows them to grow when they wouldn’t have had the opportunity otherwise)

http://www.lmsf.mq.edu.au/LMSF_docs/mtl/mtl16/mtl16_app6.pdf
(this article highlighted the need for more supervision of the affirmative action policy which I suspected was the case from your responses)

http://www.lmsf.mq.edu.au/LMSF_docs/mtl/mtl9/mtl_9_app_1.pdf
(this article shows that affirmative action policies have been improving, furthermore it suggests that while affirmative action has taken place none of the industries they reviewed lost good ratings meaning it wasn’t destructive , ie not hiring employees who can’t do their job)

May I also add a thank you for the PM. I think I would go back and completely change my previous answer after understanding where you are coming from. I think we have more in common and are somehow miscommunicating. Or possibly we do disagree but either way I have a better understanding of what you are saying. I agree that the programs don’t always work. But when it comes to affirmative action or nothing I must advocate for affirmative action simply because I don’t want to see people left with no resources. I still do not quite understand the comment about how people don’t want to try. I suggest they would try if they believed it would make a difference. It is a sort of necessary, and yes sometimes unuseful, disenfranchisement so to speak.

@RedPowerLady Kind of answering part of what you said to me and part of what you said to @rooeytoo Yes, sometimes minorities are keeping themselves back. My black girlfriend has people in her family who will say things like, “you think your so white.” This is not teenagers making fun. Oprah has said many times that people called her “Oreo.” Like it is “white” to speak well and have a college degree. This is horribly harmful, because I think you are 100% percent correct that it is a function of economics and education what I spoke of above, not race. But the black people who associates certain stereotypes with being white are as guilty as the white people who stereotype blacks. My point is the white person is not saying I won’t hire you because you are black in most instances, he is really saying I won’t hire you because of how you speak, dress, present yourself in general. The minority has to stop taking it as a personal attack and take it as advice. No one is saying you have to give up your culture or language, just saying maybe there is a time and place. You can speak middle-America English when with others and speak slang/accent/dialect at home. A gentleman who worked for me years ago was from Jamaica, went to college in the states. His English was perfect Floridian accent (if there is such a thing). When he spoke to his mom his Jamaican accent was so thick I could barely understand him – you can have both.

Back to education. It makes me nervous that there is so much talk in politics today about the “eliteists.” People around me, White Republicans Christian southerners, saying things against education. What message are they really sending to their chidlren? Kirk Cameron is out there saying how the universities are full of college professors who are liberal atheists beware. I never took a religion class in college or a political one and I can honestly say a professor never brought up politics or religion, this is ridiculous and scaring sheltered children in my opinion. I worry that many of our minorities in the US are very religious and hearing this stuff. I am not worried they are religious, I am worried they are being discouraged or limited in their educational possibilties.

When it comes to education and work and people getting a chance through affirmative action it does not really bother me. It does bother me if they can’t do the work in the end. They should not be passed through school or kept on a job because they are minorities.

I think both things are happening at once in America, some people in minority groups are doing all the “right” things and hitting walls/racism, and in other cases they are going about it the “wrong” way. I am sure we can come up with plenty examples of both, but we have to be critical of both I think, not make excuses for either side.

WHO sees only in terms of black, white and Asian-Americans? I surely don’t. I am of mixed European background. I have antecedents from Northern AND Southern Europe, and I value them all. I have many friends who are all stripes of Asian and African-American. I have African-American friends who are also part Irish and part German. I have a Chinese-American doctor and an Iranian-American dentist.

I look forward to the day when people will be judged, as Martin Luther King said, by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin. I think we’re closer to that than we were in 1963, when he gave the ‘I have a dream’ speech. But we still have a long way to go!

@JLeslie

I think your last paragraph is a great summary.

I think both things are happening at once in America, some people in minority groups are doing all the “right” things and hitting walls/racism, and in other cases they are going about it the “wrong” way. I am sure we can come up with plenty examples of both, but we have to be critical of both I think, not make excuses for either side.

I can agree with this however I will add that discussing oppression as a factor for doing the “wrong” thing is not making excuses but rather stating a reality that most people are unaware of when it comes to day-to-day living. You may see someone who is not trying but really they’ve been beat up by the system. Of course I’m not saying there are absolutely no people who don’t try or who don’t care or who will allow themselves to be held over someone else for ‘stupid’ factors. That will be true of any group. But not every group has a history of oppression spewing at them everytime they step outside the door. That is why I think it is important to note that some people may seem as if they are doing the “wrong” thing when really it is quite the opposite, the “wrong” thing is happening to them and so they just got tired and gave up. I can’t fault them for this. You can only push against the system for so long before it is too painful to bear.

@RedPowerLady I agree. When you are kicked a bunch of times it becomes difficult to stand back up. We have to do our best to address all of it all at once. BUT, I think in 2009 it is important to not feel beaten down for PAST oppression in prior generations, that the minority might be psyching themselves out and their children. The message should be you can do anything you set your mind to, and we should not be pairing behaviors with race.

I think in 2009 it is important to not feel beaten down for PAST oppression in prior generations, that the minority might be psyching themselves out and their children.

Ahh but it is not about PAST oppression, it is about current oppression.

The message should be you can do anything you set your mind to

This only works if everyone is allowed the same opportunity and starts at the same place. Unfortunately that is not true. But it is a great goal to strive for hopefully at some point we will say not to continued oppression and say yes to equality.

@RedPowerLady I am talking about a person’s, especially a child’s, psyche not necessarily reality. If half the equation is the minority himself, and half is society treating the minority as an equal, we need to get both halves in the right place. And, a lot of it is about the PAST. It is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy in some cases, not all of course. A black woman I work with says she has to fight against what her son hears, has to work hard to tell he can do anything. She is a masters level social worker. Still, when I asked her if she thinks her son is proud to be an America, like our country is a great place to be, she barely had an answer. I think that is a problem too. Honestly, I told her to get out of Memphis. I think maybe I am a flight not fight type of girl when it comes right down to it. The people who live here have no idea how different it can be in other parts of the US.

@JLeslie Perhaps you could provide a better example of how it is the past and not the present. In your example the son is hearing crap from people. That is the present. And why should someone who is likely a product of slavery say they love our nation if they are still experiencing racism?

I’ll post a second response that explains some psychological information about how the PAST does fuel people’s psyche but how it is also dependent on the PRESENT to cause negative results. Meaning the past is having relevance in the future only because racism/oppression etc.. still exist.

@JLeslie This is probably more than you ever cared to know but here you have it anyway.

So here is the information I talked about. I went to a great seminar given by psychologists who study cultural issues and how they affect the psyche. It really made a lot of sense to me. Maybe it’ll help clarify what I mean.

So I’m going to use my culture as an example only because I better understand it.

Basically the idea is that people who have ancestors that faced brutal racism have a form of PTSD. Specifically trans-generational PTSD. This means that the traumas of the ancestors are passed on through generations. So this is relevant to what you are talking about how the past affects the psyche. An example of this would be the following: A child is kidnapped from their family and forced into a Native boarding school (which was very common in the recent past). In the boarding school the child is forced not to talk their language or be a part of their culture. They are forced to assimilate. They are punished severely for disobeying. Sex Abuse, Physical Abuse, Neglect, and Illness run rampant. By the time they graduate they are severely traumatized. They go on and have children. Of course this trauma is passed onto their children because they are still scared that passing on their culture will get them in trouble. And their grandchildren pick some of this up too because their parent had to re-learn their culture from a people who are scared to teach it. This third generation is basically where we are now.

So we have a form of PTSD that has been passed down from our ancestors. Okay this is a problem for some and not so much for others. But it exists. Now there are phenomenon that trigger that PTSD. Otherwise it’s just being angry at the past but moving forward which is great. Only when the PTSD is triggered are people greatly affected to the points of which we have been discussing.

The triggers come in two forms. Micro-aggressions and Macro-aggressions.

Micro-aggressions occur on a daily basis. You are sitting in class and they show a cowboy movie where your ancestors are being killed by cowboys. This triggers memories of the past and you walk around for the day with a chip on your shoulder. Not too big a deal but it is seriously painful. This is what you see when people ‘go off’ about the past. They’ve been triggered and are angry. Rightly so. Keep in mind this happens daily and it can be very very tiring. The goal is to get rid of these micro-aggressions. To have people understand cultural history so our children don’t have to go to school and get triggered. You understand that the PTSD is not passed down intentionally and the only way of getting rid of it is getting rid of the triggers so it is not passed to the next generation. And the worst part is that people of color have so little power to get rid of these triggers themselves, they are caused by the ‘outside world’, the majority. So the majority has to start learning how this affects others and that it is essentially wrong anyhow for change to occur. AND the people of color need to educate themselves so they can speak up and so they can learn that their anger is justified but shouldn’t stop them from pursuing equality etc..

Now the macro-aggressions are when someone experiences true racism. Which happens moreso than many care to believe. This is what causes lack of motivation, people to be jaded, etc… They connect their own racist experience with that of the past and rightly can’t figure out what the path is out.

So essentially the PAST is very relevant because racism still exists today. If racism and oppression did not exist today there would be no triggers and we could erase the hold that past wrongs have on us. There is no way to erase that hold without getting rid of those triggers. But also of relevance here is that people are not just mad about the PAST. In no scenario are people jaded because of the PAST. They are jaded because what existed in the past still exists today. They are also pissed because they have such little control over the triggers. This can be exemplified by how the Supreme Court has treated Native issues. There is a whole book that outlines the racist comments judges have made towards Natives in Supreme Court cases. It is scary.

And I might add that this racism and oppression is not only psychological but institutional meaning it is actually harder for people to get jobs, education etc… And of course not being able to get a job because of your culture or because of an expectation of assimilation is another trigger…
It’s a horrible cycle.

I should probably also make it clear that this PTSD that is passed down through generations is not done so by ignorance or bad intentions. A mother who tells her child, for example, not to be proud of being American would not cause PTSD. Maybe poor values, depending on what your values are. There must be brutality for PTSD like this to exist or at the very least there must be constant trauma such as the triggers I have suggested. So it is not the ‘parents fault’ but rather the fault of continued oppression etc.. that the underlying cause is even still present. Now it would be the parents fault if the beat their children, for example, but I don’t think that is what we are talking about here.

okay i’m done with all that, wow did i write a book just now or what? lol

@RedPowerLady in response to your first post after my recent one…when I said my coworker’s son hears crap from his peers, I meant his black friends say negative things about doing well, acting white, and more. It is “reverse racism” from his own race that his mother has to fight against. I suggested to her that giving him a positive feeling about America might be helpful, because I think it must be difficult to grow up in a country that you perceive as always against you. She had never thought of this, even though she does actively encourage him to work hard and ignore the negative voices from his own race.

Now, I do take PTSD very seriously. All I can say is my people were taken from their homes at gunpoint, stripped of their belongings, piled onto trains, and sent to ovens not so long ago. Children were torn from their mothers and people witnessed family members shot dead in front of them, along with other horrific things. When I meet an older person who is German, it does run through my mind that he might have been a Nazi or child of when the Holocaust was in full swing, but I still would wait to make a judgement til after I got to know the person. When I meet young Germans it is a total non-issue. The sins of the father do not and should not visit the child. Also my paternal grandparents and maternal great grandparents left Russia and Latvia because conditions for Jews were awful.

You spoke of history and movies. Every Passover and Chanukah I am reminded of how my people were enslaved. In school and in popular media I seem movies about the horrors of the history of my people from Holocaust movies to Fiddler on the Roof. I grew up knowing there are people who hate Jews, and with the message that if it can happen in a civilized country like Germany, where Jews held positions in all walks of life and were very intergrated in society it can happen anywhere at any time. Several months ago there was a car bomb in front of a synagogue in NYC, but luckily officials foiled the caper before anything happened. I am aware that many synagogues have increased security since then in major cities around the country.

BUT, I was raised by parents who told me that the America ideals of everyone being created equal and freedom of religion is a gift/paradise/inspiration, many positive hopeful words were used. Of course we have not been perfect at living out these ideals, but it is what our country is about and works for in my belief. This is why I mentioned it to my black coworker, because I think one of the the things blacks and probably Native American’s live with is they are on the land that they feel the were abused on or that was stolen from them. So, I would assume it is much harder psychologically to overcome those feeling while still in the same country. But, I would suggest to you that I feel the possibility of hate no matter what country I am in. I think the Jews demonstrate that there is opportunity to help the younger generation not have that PTSD you speak of. I am trying to explain my observation of what has worked for me and my people.

Being a religious minority I can empathasize with the feelings of minorities, but being white and many times not viewed as a minorty (maybe you have the same advantage, I don’t know if you look outwardly Native American) I am privy to what white America says and thinks. So I would suggest to you that minorities should listen to what the majority is suggesting might be keeping minorities back. There are many successful blacks who are against affirmative action and frustrated with EEOC misuse.

The 5 year old today, when he/she is 20, will most likely be a part of an America that is even less racist, more colorblind, more equal than today. Let’s do our best to ensure that the young man or woman 15 years from now can psychologically take part in the opportunities afforded to them and not have the baggage of past generations.

My husband is Hispanic, he never, well never is a strong word, thinks of himself as a minority. In school and at work he just works hard, does his best and has been very successful. He views America as having given him opportunities to pursue what he wants in life. He feels as much a part of America as I do I think, even though he was born in another country. I think it is helpful that he lived in very international cities (we don’t now) where people and their families were from all over the world.

Perhaps you missed the point that it is not about the past but about the oppression and racism that continues to exist today. I don’t know how else to say it. You are right that Jewish people have experienced horrible circumstances that would easily lead to the same feelings of the past that we are discussing. However there is a difference and that is Jewish people are considered “white” in contemporary times and thus are not subject to the same oppression in contemporary times as are people of color. Of course this isn’t true in all parts of the country because as I understand it there are some parts of the country where Jewish people are still treated quite poorly.

It is really getting to be quite tiring for me to explain that the people I am talking about face oppression everyday. Perhaps for some reason you aren’t grasping this. You say over and over that they should just ‘get over it’ but how can someone simply get over it when it happens everday. My husband was walking his bike to the bus stop. The cops stopped him and asked him 20 questions about what he was doing in our neighborhood and was he dealing drugs etc… He told them quite politely that he lived here and laughed when they asked if he was dealing drugs (while still being polite). The cops were still nasty to him. How do you simply “get over” that? It happens everyday. I was on hiring committees at the University level and people of color were continuously overlooked for their job positions. I saw their resumes, they were just as skilled as everyone else. How do you get over that? By having a better attitude? That simply does nothing to fight institutional racism. The bad attitude of the past is only fueled because this crap happens to people of color every freaking day. Can you imagine sending your kid to school and she is talking about a cultural ceremony that she went to and the teacher then tells the mom that her 5 year old kid can’t talk about that at school? WTF? How do you explain that to a 5 year old child? Happens everyday. In the PRESENT. The past IS relevant because of the present. You also suggest conforming, doing what the majority wants. So you suggest that the only way people of color can succeed is to be “white”. Well what is the point of having diversity then?? To respond to your last paragraph let me tell you I am part of a very educated community of Native people and we certainly don’t consider ourselves minorities. Of course we feel part of this nation. We work in it, we play in it, we live in it, we contribute to it. We feel America is our nation because it is. We’ve been here for years before everyone else. We love this freaking place. We are successful. BUT we still face oppression on a daily basis. We still can’t get paid the same amount as a “white” person. My friend who worked for years for the University, very successfully one day was asked by a boss why she didn’t dress more Indian. How rude. See even when we do “conform” we get it from the other end.

As for your parents telling you that you at least have freedom of religion here. Well just a point of information, Native people do not.

@RedPowerLady I think you must be correct that I am not really getting it, because I think our experience is so different.

I think you should move to a different city. There are places in the US that all of that crap you listed would not happen. The cop harrasing your husband after he complied is absurd, the teacher telling your child not to talk about a ceremony is ridiculous. You see it everyday, but it is not every where every day. As far as pay, I am a woman and we are still paid less also, my husband looks and sounds foreign, but does not experience the outward discrimination you speak of. I BELIEVE you when you relay these stories, I just think I would get out of Dodge if I were you. We are trying to decide when to actively start looking to move, because we can’t see staying in the south for more than another five years for similar reasons. We haven’t had outward discrimination towards us that I know of, but have a hard time listening to some of the narrowminded people we encounter here.

@JLeslie I think you must be correct that I am not really getting it, because I think our experience is so different.

I think that is the issue as well. In all honesty I really think so.

You are also very right that as a woman you experience the lower pay. That is a good point.

I will say though that I have heard from others who I’ve had this conversation with the same thing that I heard from you. Move to a different city. I can honestly tell you that it is not the city I live in. In fact I live in a very liberal “hippie” city. I know it is hard to grasp that people go through this everyday and everywhere. It really really sucks. And I am very happy you don’t have to deal with it.

also thank you for noticing that i was getting frustrated, i can tell that you are very kind

@RedPowerLady Can you just think of those prejudiced people as assholes and focus on the majority of the people in your hippie city who treat you well? I think that is what my husband and I do. When someone says something stupid about Mexican’s I just let them know in my own way what asshole’s they are, OR try to educate them, and then forget about it.

@JLeslie Well that is the difference between individual and institutional racism. I can certainly think of those people as assholes and frankly that is what I do the majority of the time. In fact I tell hubby to just think that way quite often as he is more easily ready to get upset than I am. The problem is when the racism occurs at the level of the institution. Our generation has taken it upon ourselves to point out this racism and fight it. Sometimes with activism and sometimes more practically. So far each generation has focused on helping out the next in some way. Ours is focused on fighting this aspect of racism in hopes the next generation won’t have to take on that fight and will be able to focus on cultural restoration. We know from history that institutional racism won’t just disappear, it has to be fought.

definition of institutional racism

@RedPowerLady I certainly think it is a noble cause to continue to point out inequities in society. I think it is great that you and your husband actively try to change things.

None of what I’m about to write is anything more than the first thoughts I’ve had of “white people” since childhood so no one get offended and if you find humor in it then great because so do I.

pink flushed pale skin
flabby
b.o.
mayonaise
cheese slices
white bread
pick up trucks
butt cracks
messy house
cheap beer
country music
Vick’s

@hungryhungryhortence Just curious what race/ethnicity are you?

butt cracks

@JLeslie: I’m of French, Spanish, Basque, Irish and… of pioneer stock in America since the early 1800’s.

@hungryhungryhortence oh, so basically white yourself, or I assume you identify “white” I was just wondering with your answer. I found your answer funny. When I think of “white” people nothing really jumps to mind, unless you get more specific say southern or maybe even midwest lower to lower-mid income level white then maybe some of your list seems to make sense. Even then I would take out b.o. and messy house, but add in drinks milk with meals.

Really, if you say any race I don’t have something that really jumps into my mind, I need more specifics because within a race people come in all different shapes and sizes, and attitudes, and education level, and income levels, and religions. I don’t think race has much to do with anything really, it is other outside factors that seem to shape us.

@JLeslie: actually I’ve never identified as white and I do stick out like a sore thumb as “exotic” which gets annoying but that’s beside this particular question. It’s strange what associations we form as children.

@hungryhungryhortence In a very interesting college class, i can’t recall the name of the class but we discussed lots of social and cultural issues, we talked about the issue of the term “exotic”. It was very enlightening. But essentially many people believe that being called “exotic” is very annoying and rightly so.

@RedPowerLady: “exotic” feels to me like what people come up with as least offensive when they’re way too curious about you and can’t easily make an assumption. It’s like when I was a kid and people thought they were being polite in asking my “nationality”, I mean c’mon- my families have been Americans a very long time, no one has an accent and it really shouldn’t make me any more American than newer generations but for some reason, I still bristle whenever the subject comes up.

@hungryhungryhortence “exotic” feels to me like what people come up with as least offensive when they’re way too curious about you and can’t easily make an assumption.
Exactly!

@hungryhungryhortence now that is very interesting to me. I have heard many new immigrants say they are annoyed that Americans always ask where they are from or what ethnicity they are. I find it interesting that it bothers you even though your family has been here for many generations. I always think the people new to our counrty think we are asking because we wan to fit them into a stereotype when really we are just curious or interested. Altough, I have found as I move around the country Americans in the middle of the country and south don’t discuss these things much, almost find the topic politically incorrect. I find it directly correlates with having been in America for many generations. Growing up in NY and MD we all new people came from all over the world, parents had accents, spoke different languages. It was not impolite to ask where someone was from, because we all knew it didn’t matter, and we were generally and genuinely interested in people’s customs and life in their former country.

@JLeslie: since you asked me, what race/ethnicity are you? Since childhood, I’ve usually observed anglos are very comfortable being curious and interested in other people’s histories, customs and cultures while those who identify as non anglo are uncomfortable. I grew up in a very progressive family, progressive state and with exposure to a fantastic variety of peers from various family backgrounds and this wasn’t a phenomenon to many of us.

@hungryhungryhortence But, my “white” friends were Jewish, Italian, Irish, and more. They were not WASP’s. Do you perceive people who are curious about someone’s country of origin, or at least their country before America as wanting to “group” people, or just curious? When I ask a Hispanic person where they are from I just want to know where they are from. Ineterested in whatever they might want to share about their country, traditions, etc. Hell, once I asked a woman I would walk with in my neighborhood, and I expected her to say a Latin American country and she was Palestinian. So much for assumptions. Not that it matters what she is. In fact she told me where I can buy tahini in the area, because I could not find it in the grocery store, so that was a good thing.

My husband, who looks and sounds foreign, doesn’t care if someone asks him, but his brother hates it. But, the difference I see between them is his brother has decided that American’s have negative ideas about Mexican’s. The thing I dislike most about it is his brother walks around feeling like he has to hide his heritage, he even changed his name.

@JLeslie: No, I don’t think all curious people are intrusive.

@hungryhungryhortence Good to know. I certainly don’t want to be offensive to someone by asking.

@hungryhungryhortence and @RedPowerLady Wow! I’m often called exotic (usually before someone asks about my ethnicity, ie “you’re very exotic looking, where are you from?”) i have never once found it offensive and actually find it quite flattering.

@Leanne1986 In my mind exotic is a complement also. I relate it in my mind to dark hair and beautiful facial features.

@Leanne1986 I can see why someone would find it flattering because it is a romanticized term. And it really is meant in a flattering way. The offensive part is a bit complex to be honest. It is kinda a way of telling someone they look “different” and when you are “different” it’s not always flattering. That is putting it very simply.

@Leanne1986: what @RedPowerLady says about the word “exotic” is true. It’s probably meant to be flattering but when you don’t blend in with most others then you sometimes feel odd or even ugly instead of exotic, attractive, intriguing. Sometimes you just want someone to say you’re pretty.

@RedPowerLady @hungryhungryhortence I can see your point. I get told I am so “white or pale” all of the time. I hate that. Well, hate is strong. I don’t think it is ever said to me in a flattering way. Their tone is more of suprise in their voice. My mother-in-law has told me twice since I have known her that I look good, healthy, referring to my complexion. Once I was hospitalized for an ectopic, and the other time I had a fever of 102. Seems I had more color in my face on those days. I had my step-neice, last time I saw her, tell me that I should use Jergens lotion with the hint of tanner.

@hungryhungryhortence that is what I do, I just tell someone they are beautiful period, I don’t typically go into specifics, I’m glad you said that. I did it just the other day at Lowe’s of all places. This girl was gorgeous. I worked in cosmetics for a while, so we would recruit people from other stores, and had no problem telling others when they were beautiful.

If you all were fruit flies you would be happy to be “exotic.” Fruit flies that are different from the rest of the local population get a lot more chances to mate than those that look like everybody else.

In any case, my husband is “exotic” over here on the United States mainland, but I am the exotic one in Japan, where his ancestors originated.

@Darwin everything is always relative.

@RedPowerLady and @hungryhungryhortence I kind of understand what you are saying but because I am proud to be slightly different to those around me I don’t find being called exotic offensive at all (of course certain things always depend on the way they are said though). I can think of far, far worse things to be called. No disrespect to either of you but I feel that maybe you are reading too deeply into what exotic means and searching for something to be offended by when there is no need to. Of course we all associate words to different meanings and emotions but when someone tells me that I am exotic I always say “Thank you, I take that as a compliment” and the majority of people reply “It was intended that way”. Noticing each others differences and talking about them is not always a bad thing and I feel beautiful when people notice mine.

@Leanne1986 I agree that noticing differences is not always a bad thing. In fact in many other threads I’ve argued just that myself. I also understand that for some people the word exotic could be a compliment. But I do find it a bit offensive when someone says “perhaps you are reading too deeply into it”. Just as you have a right to take it as a compliment others have a right to feel hurt. It’s not always appropriate to go up to someone and say “hey uh you look different”. Sometimes that can be very hurtful. We can’t always force ourselves to feel happy, we are allowed to be hurt by other people’s comments. That is human nature. And we shouldn’t expect others to feel the same way we do so sometimes it is nice to have these conversations so we all have a new level of sensitivity that is beneficial to the human race as a whole. It’s always nice to know what hurts others.

@RedPowerLady I agree that we all feel things differently and associate different meanings to certain words. What I meant when I said that I felt you were reading to deeply is that people who use certain words (like exotic) don’t mean to be offensive and so we shouldn’t think that everyone who uses that word is poking fun at us for looking slightly different to what they are used to. If we are too sensitive of certain words we will start to worry everytime we open our mouths that we are going to offend someone and I feel that this is worse than making the odd (accidental) politically incorrect mistake when it is something as innocent as telling someone that they are exotic. I appreciate that this is just my opinion though as we all have our reasons for feeling the way we do.

I started to associate exotic as a compliment when I was at school. I was about 11 years old and I was very upset (in tears) because I’d been made fun of for having full lips (my face and my features hadn’t learnt to work together at this point!!!). Some racist insults were thrown at me and this was the first time anyone had ever made fun at me for looking a little different to everyone else. My teacher said to me “you know what, they’re just jealous because you’re so exotic”. From that day onwards I never worried about looking different because different is interesting.

What I meant when I said that I felt you were reading to deeply is that people who use certain words (like exotic) don’t mean to be offensive and so we shouldn’t think that everyone who uses that word is poking fun at us for looking slightly different to what they are used to

Thank you for clarifying. But I respectfully have a different opinion. I think that even with good intentions people can be hurtful. I don’t think anyone of us is saying these people are being intentionally hurtful when using the term exotic. But someone still has a right to be hurt when someone so obviously points out they look different. I am very happy that it is a good association for you. Unfortunately not everyone has this experience. I’m not punishing anyone for using the word exotic or saying they are horrible for doing so or that they should worry every time they open their mouth. All I am saying is that it is valid to be hurt by such a term. I believe you feel differently? I come from training in counseling and perhaps that is where I get some of my beliefs from. But everyone has a right to feel hurt without being called oversensitive. After all you always run a risk when you go up to someone and tell them how different they look, essentially that is what you are doing when you call someone “exotic” whether well intentioned or not. Again I’m not demeaning someone who says this, just stating that the receiver has a right to be hurt.

@RedPowerLady Do you believe that there are “safe” words that people can use when wanting to point out how interesting someone looks by giving a compliment? It’s always nice to give someone a compliment because they are beautiful but sometimes it’s nice to be able to tell them what makes them beautiful.

@Leanne1986 I’d just be specific. Oh I love your hair. Or wow you are so pretty. Your eyes are simply amazing. Those type of things. Then someone can walk away with a feeling that wow their eyes are pretty. Does that make sense?

@RedPowerLady @Leanne1986 I think you both are right. The intentions of the person who said the word is important and how it makes the receiver feel is important. Communications is the key. If you feel offended say so, don’t sulk or immediately feel offended and walk away hurt or angry. Give the person who made the comment a chance to expand on what they meant by what they said. This way intentions are known and the person using the word has the opportunity to learn it might offend some people. I would guess most people have no idea that is offensive. I agree with @Leanne1986 we cannot constantly be nervous about being politically correct all of the time, and I also agree with @RedPowerLady that how the person feels who is receiving the comment matters also.

Most young people want to fit in, I can see why children would be hurt by being called something that seemingly means you are different. But, I would argue the word exotic conjures up feelings of tropical climates, vacation, warm friendly people who are sexy and beautiful. It is hard for me to understand why an adult would be offended, I guess unless they were scarred somehow when younger by the use of the word, or are literally the only person in a town that looks different than the rest.

@RedPowerLady That does make sense. What about if someone wants to compliment the way your ethnicity makes you look though. For example, your skin tone? Is it acceptable to say, your skin colour is beautiful or something along those lines?

@Leanne1986 Wow that is a great question. If someone came up to my husband and told him his skin color was beautiful I don’t know how we would feel. I think I wouldn’t like it but I can’t really pinpoint why.

I think I wouldn’t like it but I can’t really pinpoint why.

Could it be some trace of lack of self-esteem from having grown up in a society dominated by people with a different skin color?

@RedPowerLady Thank you for your honesty.

@Leanne1986 Your welcome. I appreciate the thanx. That is one I’m going to have to think about.

@Darwin What I really want to do is ask my husband. Although I’m Native as well I have light skin. My husband however looks every bit like his ethnicity.
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A different example would be my husband’s name. He is named after an animal. So people comment on his name all the time. Most of the time people say “i like your name”. Hubby hates it when they do that. I try and tell him, hey they like your name, but he really hates it.

@RedPowerLady I’ll have to remember the name thing as well. Where I work I am always talking to new people and their children. If someone tells me their or their childs name and I like it I will often tell them so. However, most of the names that I compliment are names that I don’t hear very often or ever in my own country so their origin is from a different culture/ethnicity. It never crossed my mind that people may be offended by a compliment about their name.

@RedPowerLady – What we hate is someone who makes assumptions about us from our appearance. Several times recently folks have insisted my husband is Inuit (he is not) or Mexican (he is not that, either). And, especially in New Mexico, folks are always asking what tribe he represents. However, they generally ask in a polite way without pre-judging him, so he is typically happy to say he is Asian.

However, if anyone wants to say he has an attractive smile, or my daughter has beautiful hair, or my son has a lovely color of skin, we always simply say “Thank you.” We take it as a compliment, which basically turns it into one no matter what the original intent might have been.

Also, my husband has an unusual name for this country because he was named for his grandfather who emigrated from Japan. He never minds if someone says they like his name or ask about it’s origins. However, the one thing that bugs him is when someone wants to know what nationality he is. The conversation typically goes as follows:

“What country are you from?”

“The USA.”

“No, I mean, what is your nationality?”

“American.”

“No, where did you grow up?”

“Chicago.”

“No, where were you born?”

“Santa Anita Racetrack”

“Okay, then, where is your name from?”

“My grandfather.”

Sometimes he relents and tells them that his ancestors are from Japan. And sometimes he doesn’t.

@Darwin That is a very funny example. I certainly see how that could get annoying. I can relate on some level to that. Many people don’t know the right word for “tribe” and try and ask us what “type” of Native American we are. It is often very difficult for them to get to what they are intending to ask despite their lack of terminology. In your case however they are making a clear assumption that your husband is not from the US. That is clearly annoying.

Here is an interesting situation from the opposite direction. I live in an area where there are many Aboriginal people. They refer to their groups as mobs. So when one of their mob dies they do not say their name for an indeterminate period of time. Recently a woman died whose name is similar and sounds like my name but not the same. One of her relatives was talking to me and asked what he could call me and I said by my name as you always do, he said no he didn’t want to use my name because it is like the dead woman’s name. I said I didn’t want to be called by a different name, my culture doesn’t have the same belief nor do I so use my name or don’t call me anything. He became irrate and accused me of not being sensitive to his culture. I said I am named for my grandmother and I love my name because of that and he was being insensitive to my culture by saying I should change my name for a month or a year or 5 years.

End of story is, he is now not calling me by any name which is fine with me.

@rooeytoo Normally I am in the non-sensitive camp, but in this case, I feel I would likely have been a bit more flexible towards the fellow.

Couldn’t he for instance just have called you Rooey instead of Rooeytoo?

He kept asking me what he could call me. And I kept saying my own name because it is not even the same as the woman who died. And his wife continued to call me by my name. I felt it was like a “I am male and I will tell you what you will do” sort of thing, because in their culture, women are really repressed. I felt it was more of a battle of wills than culture and I don’t back down.

This is the part that is always problematic for me. I have butted heads with this man before. He has no respect for my culture. If you want examples I can give you many.
But demands that I change my name to accommodate his. I feel respect for culture is a 2 way street. In this case he was saying his culture is more important than mine, how do you resolve?

I wouldn’t change my name, but normally I don’t mind people calling me by a sort of nickname either, as long as it is nice and well-intended.

In the case you subscribe, I would likely have told him to call me “Sir”.
Or rather “Madam”, if I were you.

There is no need for him to call me anything, he can say g’day or whatever without using a name. Instead he was insisting that I choose a different name for him to call me.

@rooeytoo I completely agree with you. Respect is a two way street and no one should expect you to “respect their culture” in the way that he obviously expected you to do so.

@RedPowerLady I think people don’t use the word tribe, becuase they are afraid to.

@Darwin I play a similar game, goes like this:

Someone asks me, “where are you from?”

“Here, I was born in Washington DC.”

“Where is your family from?”

“My parents are from the Bronx. Or, do you mean my realtives who immigrated to the US?”

“Yes.”

“Latvia and Russia.”

“Oh.”

They are trying to get at that I am Jewish. Doesn’t upset me or offend me. If they asked point blank if I am Jewish I would tell them yes.

I have had folks think I am Jewish without them ever asking me, but that tended to be in Tucson, where there is quite a bit of anti-Semitism as well as overt racism.

Or as Richard Pryor put it “I went to a penitentiary one time…not me personally, but me and Gene (Wilder) went there for a movie. Arizona State Penitentiary. Population: 90 percent black people. But there are no black people in Arizona; they have to bus the m——f——ers in!”

OTOH, I have also been told that I have “good hair.”

I am much happier when folks just accept me as I am, and ask a civil question if they are curious.

@Darwin Now your comment is interesting. I am never assuming the people who ask me are antisemitic. Maybe they are? I also tend to be lecturing or agreeing that minorities should not get offended so easily, maybe I am naive?

I tell people all of the time they have gorgeous hair, because it is one of the features on myself I am the most unhappy with, and admire on other people. This comes from my mothers side of the family who were quick to notice when someone was gorgeous and say so either behind their back or to their face depending on the situation…they did not say negative comments about people whe were unnatractive, they were just into beauty, that side of my family we had many artists. My grandmother used to reach into my husbands hair and tell him how fantastic it was; when it was short she would say it felt like fur as she rubbed his head.

@Darwin Do you tink any of it is cultural? What I mean is in my family people freely handed out compliments and meant them. I see that does no thappen in my husband’s family. Maybe some people are suspicious of compliments, because they are not accustomed to them. Like I tell my niece she is beautiful and perfect (not constantly, but more than once in the last 14 years of her life) and all of the cute things she did when she was young, and they think it is strange.

My brother-in-laws xboyfriend once said that the daughter of a boyfriend of another family member (that is confusing) from out of nowhere said to me how pretty the girl was after we had had lunch with them. The girl was not pretty, she was wonderful, but not physically a knockout by any means at the time, she was in an awkward pre-teen stage and had just had all of her hair hacked off by her mom. The comment seemed disingenuous, and made me feel he felt exactly the opposite.

So I wonder if you say people are pretty when you don’t mean it and you grow up not complimenting people, that you might be more suspicious of people who compliment you? (not you, I mean you in the third person)

@JLeslie I think people don’t use the word tribe, because they are afraid to.

Nope, they don’t know the word. I’m sure of it. I really don’t know why someone would be afraid to use the word tribe.

@rooeytoo There was a similar situation in my community. A boy had been chosen as a ceremonial leader for the year. Whenever chosen you are no longer allowed to speak that person’s name. The family told everyone about the honor and we were very happy. But because they couldn’t say his name there was a lot of confusion from people about who’s name exactly couldn’t be said because we were from different tribes. Essentially they just told everyone a few times that they couldn’t’ say his name and chose to follow that themselves. They left it up to us as individuals to choose to say his name or not.

In your scenario, I agree that respect goes both ways. But I also feel that when someone passes away we should do whatever we can to help them in their grief. This has nothing to do with the cultural aspect. In that case I would have likely put up with the guy’s guff just to be respectful of the grief process. That does not mean I would have chosen a different name but I do think some medium ground could be built but I think you two just have a long history together as you said and that is probably what the problem is really about.

@RedPowerLady because I think many white affluent people associate it with primitive cultures that they feel they are better than and don’t want to use the word, because they feel it will be condescending in some way. They are not knowledgable I agree on the proper use of the word. I think they don’t use the word for white people, so they feel it inappropriate to use it for any other group if they are trying to be PC.

@JLeslie Interesting thoughts. I’ve never had someone say as much to me. They more stumble around the word not knowing what it is called. When I feel “nice” I give it to them “tribe” and they are always pretty quick to start using it or say something like ‘oh ya that’s it’. I suppose it could be different reasons in different circles.

@JLeslie – In Miami and in New York, no one ever seemed to care if one was Jewish or not well, except if you were considering dating their son and they would simply ask if they wanted to know and if it wasn’t already obvious.

Here in Texas no one asks because Texas Christians assume everyone is Christian of one sort or another. If it turns out you are a Unitarian, a Hindu, or a Buddhist, many folks are quite surprised, and a few become hostile. South Texas Jews tend to feel you out carefully and make comments that would only be fully understood by someone who is also Jewish Commonly it might be a cooking question that might require one to know what matzoh or schmaltz is. However, there are relatively few Jews here so most Christians assume there aren’t any, and most Jews are just happy to meet you.

However, in Tucson being Jewish is not considered a good thing by the majority. They don’t want to offend a Gentile by asking if they are Jewish, but once they decided someone was Jewish they wanted very little contact with them. However, most people who were like that weren’t really certain what a Jew might be so their classification of someone as Jewish was rather random.

As to the term “good hair” – that isn’t a way of saying gorgeous hair. It is an African-American way of saying that someone’s hair is straight and fine and not nappy.

@darwin I guess “good hair” is relative also LOL.

So true in NY and Miami we just ask. Especially Jews ask each other—just to confirm what we already know. In fact, in NY and Miami we ALL know what each other is, Jewish, Cuba, Italian, Venezuelan, etc. Here in TN, where there are few Jews (except in one part of town where most of the Jews live, but many are Orthodox so they are a close-knit group) they would never ask me if I am Jewish. Like you said they would never even guess it even though my last name is very Jewish, they have no clue. I never took it as antisemitic, I just took it as ignorance or lack of knowledge of what last names are Jewish and them not being around Jews enough to spot me as a Jew. AND, they don’t ask anyone anything about their ethnicity unless you have an accent (new immigrant), but ask everyone what church they go to, even me.

Although, the Jews here in Memphis do the same thing the NY and Miami Jews do, they ask you straight out if you are Jewish. NYers are more direct in general about everything. Southerners have more rules about being rude or something?

What you wrote about Tucson is so suprising to me. I never associate the Southwest as being antisemitic, but I am not very familiar with the Southwestern states.

@JLeslie – Just because someone asks if you are Jewish it doesn’t mean they are anti-semitic. It is how they behave around you once they either know or think they know you are Jewish.

What I discovered was that the native Arizonans, the old cowboys, the folks who live outside town in the desert, and so on, take you at face value. They aren’t anti-anything except they dislike folks who boast. They only ask you what church you go to if they are looking for a ride to church, want to invite you to theirs, or are making conversation.

However, in town many of the people are from other parts of the US, generally from states that begin with vowels or that are known for growing large amounts of wheat or corn. Those folks seem to feel they know the only right way to do things. They feel justified in discriminating against all sorts of people, from fat people to folks that look different to folks who go to a different church.

According to the 2005–2007 American Community Survey conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau, White Americans made up 76.4% of Arizona’s population; of which 59.6% were non-Hispanic whites. Hispanics and Latinos (of any race) made up 29.0% of Arizona’s population. 3.6% of Arizonans are African-American and 5.1% are Native American. Only 1% of the population is Jewish (and 1% is Buddhist), and almost 80 percent of the state’s population lives in either Tucson/Pima County or Phoenix/Maricopa County.

Overall, Arizona has a greater proportion of Whites and fewer of Blacks than most states. It has more Native Americans than most states but more than half live off in the boonies and don’t have much to do with the culture in the big towns. Arizona is home to 21 federally recognized tribes, and reservations and tribal communities comprise over a quarter of Arizona’s lands.

What is interesting also in the demographics of Arizona is how segregated the state is. The majority of the Hispanics live in the southern portion of the state. The majority of the Native Americans live on the reservations, mostly in the north and central parts of the state. The majority of the Whites live in the two most populous counties, Maricopa and Pima. Jews and Blacks also tend to live in either Maricopa or Pima counties.

In other words, native Arizonans are great folks, but a lot of the relative newcomers (basically since WWII) are quite rigid.

I see. Frustrating really. In the back of my mind I always feel like there are always out there who hate Jewish people, but in the front of my brain, the thoughts that are usually in my head are that most people are not prejudice. I don’t think I equate not socializing together as necessarily being prejudice if the people are culturally very different. It is starnge how situations change things. Growing up I had black friends. As an adult I did/do to when I lived in Florida, but here in the Memphis area not one. I work with some black people, but never gets to the point of being friends and seeing each other after work (although admittedly I have not worked many hours living here) but no one does. I don’t know any white people here who are friends with black people. Those of us who have come from the east coast are very saddened by how segregated or rather divided it is here, but the truth is I have little in common with the black people I have met here.

You might be interested in this link that I had looked up for a different fluther question http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews not too far down under population there is a map to the right and the Jewish population is fairly concentrated in certain cities in Arizona, as you mentioned. Not that I argue your 1% stat, I don’t, but like always it seems to have more to do with the fact that we tend to live near each other than total overall statistics. The country is only 2.2% Jewish more or less, and people think we are everywhere. For that matter Jews are less than one quarter of 1% of the world population and everyone seems concerned with us. It is interesting to me.

@JLeslie – Living close could be due to safety in numbers, as well as it being nice to have neighbors who won’t burn crosses on the front lawn, but it is likely today to have been walking distance to the synagogue.

As to the interest in Jews, since they have been the designated villain for centuries folks tend to watch what they do. Personally, I believe it is because Jewish culture rewards folks for being smart and hard-working, so only those who are smart and hardworking survive.

Some of my family is still Jewish. Some of it used to be Jewish until it became politically expedient to change a couple of centuries ago. And still other parts of my family are Quakers, Unitarians, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, Baptists, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Buddhists, atheists, and just about every other religious or non-religious classification you can think of. I don’t think any of us worship Kali, though, although a few have become Hare Krishnas.

I just realized that I am thinking the US here. In many countries historically Jews were only allowed to live in certain places.

Lol. Well, a lot of Jews say among themselves that they like to live where Jews live, because it is more likely to be a nice place, higher percentage of educated population who place an emphasis on eductaion, and appreciation for the arts. Not that it is necessarily the Jews contributing much to the overall statistic in the particular city, just that Jews tend to live in those types of places so it is an indicator. Also, the more educated I would guess the less prejudiced a population tends to be.

I don’t think it is walking distance to the synogue since the majority of Jews are not Orthodox; maybe that was true a very long time ago? But, like most minority groups, when they came to this country they stayed in certain cities near relatives like NYC, and followed each other to different cities later liKe California, and South Florida. It’s the same as Mexicans being in TX and Cali, Cubans in south FL, and Arabs in Dearborn, MI.