Could you kill that cow/pig/etc. yourself to get that steak/sausage/etc. you're eating?

It would make me a little squeamish to do it my self, but if I had to eat, yes I would do it.

EDIT: didn’t think about it, but I’ve hunted and eaten what I caught. So I guess I can. Just that slaughtering a cow seems to be a different story.

Great question! Could and did. I feel that it’s respectful to the animal to face up to it’s death, and to make sure it’s done in the most humane way possible.

Edit: I have killed and butchered chickens and fish. I find cows, pigs, and turkeys too personable and intelligent – they’re my buddies. I wouldn’t feel right killing them, so I don’t eat them.

@wildpotato If an animal is going to be killed, I agree it should be humanely. Sadly though, the legal procedures for slaughterhouses in the US are far from humane.

@jackm How so? (the cow vs. wild game)
EDIT: I too think they are a different story, but just curious of your opinion why

Could and have.

My problem is I’m way too empathetic for my own good and I also get way too attached to animals. I mean, I recognize their personalities and emotions, and I have so much respect for them as sentient beings with whom I share the world. So I think it would be really difficult and I personally have no interest in hunting, at least not the killing a beautiful creature aspect of it.

Now, if it were pure necessity, like if I lived in the woods or on a farm with no store or something, I think I could. But I’d have to ritualize it like the Native Americans in order to feel less badly about taking a life. I do thank plants when I take clippings from them.. probably sounds nuts to most, but it’s part of my religious beliefs.

I am actually grateful that there are people that do this for me, I just wish it were more humane than it is.

I killed some mussels tonight and ate them for dinner. This was the first animal I have eaten or (intentionally) killed in a very long time.

They were delicious.

I could not kill a fish, chicken, cow, or pig. I don’t eat them.

@MissAnthrope Good for you! So are you saying you don’t eat meat then, so you don’t have to do any justifying to yourself?

@nikipedia I like your logic

@BBSDTfamily
Not sure to be honest. The hunt seems natural and slicing a cows throat doesn’t. I know it doesnt really make sense.

@BBSDTfamily – Well, no, I’m not a veggie. I have maybe a weird view on the whole thing, I think it stems from my biology background. We’re obviously intended to eat meat and have evolved the canines to prove it. And, in nature, everything eats something else (save most plants, of course), so I see that as normal. I just have such a high level of empathy that I’d have a difficult time doing it myself. I realize that’s maybe a bit hypocritical or something? I don’t know, it all makes sense in my head.

@jackm It makes sense to me. Technically you could shoot the cow and kill it as painlessly as you would a deer (or whatever you hunt). To me it’s different when it is a wild animal that is hunted and killed instantly vs. a mass produced animal for factory farming that is killed in a slaughterhouse, never getting a natural lifestyle whatsoever.

@MissAnthrope I agree is is hypocritical. I always ate meat without giving it a second thought before I realized hey, I am practically killing the animal myself anyway- it would be like being a king of a country and ordering someone to be beheaded… if you don’t do it yourself, you still caused it. So, I stopped eating anything that I have a lot of compassion for (which is basically animals that care for their young- I believe they have the capacity to love). I don’t have a big issue with eating meat in general…. my issue is with factory farming and animal cruelty that runs rampant in that industry. No way am I supporting that by buying any product created by it.

No. I regard carnivorousness as a mental luxury that I can afford because the package of wrapped meat at the supermarket looks so little like anything alive. I can almost forget where it comes from. I am spoiled by the convenience and the enormous distance between the stockyard and my table. If I had to do my own slaughtering and butchering, I know I would be a vegetarian.

However, in the next minute I have to say that if my survival depended on trapping and skinning that rabbit, I would do it without any sentimentality or queasiness at all, just because I could no longer afford the luxury of such choices.

In other words, when it comes to meat eating, I am twice a hypocrite. I know that, and it doesn’t make me comfortable.

@Jeruba
The funny thing is, I am like you as well, but it doesn’t bother me at all. Humans are so full of contradicting feelings, it doesn’t really matter any more.

Here’s why I do not think I’m a hypocrite (and I don’t think @Jeruba is a hypocrite either):

A hypocrite is someone who professes to have a belief and goes against it. In other words, a hypocrite is someone who says “killing animals is wrong” and then eats meat. I do not believe killing animals is wrong. I believe killing animals for meat is acceptable, though there are better ways to do it than a lot of methods that are used today. Just because I personally would not want to kill an animal, doesn’t mean I believe it’s wrong. And I would do it if it were a necessity.

If I had to kill it myself, Hell no! but since I do not see the process, I guess I am fine with it. I have not actually thought about it.

@BBSDTfamily – I believe a lot of animals have some range of emotions. It seems beyond obvious to me in certain species, in fact. So I feel a mix of tenderness and empathy toward animals in general, but I can’t deny the fact that we’re omnivores well-suited to meat-eating. In fact, humans wouldn’t be where we are now if we hadn’t started consuming meat at that point in our lineage. Brain tissue is quite expensive to grow and maintain, meat provides excellent fuel.

Yay, @DominicX! That’s how I feel.

@jackm and @Jeruba That’s why they label them “pork”, “beef”,“veal” instead of “sliced pig shank”, “tenderized cow buttocks” etc. Smart people, the meat industry.

@BBSDTfamily

The idea of veal sickens me so much that I do not eat veal. In that case, I will not support the killing of baby animals and hideous ways the calves are treated.

@BBSDTfamily (in response to your post @jackm) More painlessly, actually. You draw a line from each ear to the opposite eye, and shoot the center of the X. Can’t do that with a wild deer.

As you can tell, I fall in line with your thinking that one oughtn’t eat another creature that one cannot bear to empathize with in it’s death. But I just thought of a counter-example – these were chickens that Capt_Bloth and I raised. I hated dealing with them, and found them utterly brainless, and the Captain didn’t mind them so he usually got chicken duty. Which means they would follow him around and actually be kind of sweet to him. When we had to kill them, me and my other friends volunteered to do it so he wouldn’t have to hurt his chickens. But I’d say he had every right to eat them despite his abstention – at least as much as I had for killing them. So I think there’s more to debate here than just the actual killing of the animal – it’s also a question of upholding the animal’s dignity in life, before you butcher it (yourself or not).

@DominicX Agreed, “hypocrite” is not the most accurate of words for this situation. However, the point that BBSDTfamily was getting at still stands – there seems to be this mass societal repression of the fact that meat comes from other living beings, that they died and their deaths were messy. If you know you’re deliberately repressing this knowledge, like Jeruba, I have no bone to pick. Because even having that need to press your fingers in your ears and hum is an acknowledgment of the animal’s death.

@MissAnthrope Luckily we’ve evolved enough that we no longer have to eat meat to exist- we understand the needs of our body well enough and the nutrients available in other foods to be completely healthy w/o animal products. Eating meat is a choice, not a necessity.

Meat is tasty and good for you, if you’re careful about amounts, quality, etc. That’s my justification for eating it. I don’t have the technical proficiency to kill an animal, no, but if I was starving, you bet I would. Society has just made it so that we don’t have to kill our food with our own hands, but we were meant to eat meat, and our body chemistry requires it for a balanced diet.

@wildpotato Where did you get that information? Just curious so I can check into it. There are several methods for different animals, and that is by far the most humane I’ve heard. Google it if you’re interested one day or pick up a book regarding it- very horrendous things that are perfectly legal are done daily.

At the risk of hijacking your thread:

“According to an analysis of U.S.D.A. data by the advocacy group Farm Forward, factory farms now produce more than 99 percent of the animals eaten in this country…

“According to reports by the Food and Agriculture Organization of the U.N. and others, factory farming has made animal agriculture the No. 1 contributor to global warming (it is significantly more destructive than transportation alone), and one of the Top 2 or 3 causes of all of the most serious environmental problems, both global and local: air and water pollution, deforestation, loss of biodiversity. . . . Eating factory-farmed animals — which is to say virtually every piece of meat sold in supermarkets and prepared in restaurants — is almost certainly the single worst thing that humans do to the environment.

“Every factory-farmed animal is, as a practice, treated in ways that would be illegal if it were a dog or a cat. Turkeys have been so genetically modified they are incapable of natural reproduction. To acknowledge that these things matter is not sentimental. It is a confrontation with the facts about animals and ourselves. We know these things matter.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/magazine/11foer-t.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=magazine

If I were starving I could but just as I do not choose to cut my own hair, bake my own bread or grow my own rice, I don’t choose to kill my own food.

I want it to live and die humanely so I buy free range from sources I know really are free range.

I once was riding with a cattle man here and we came upon an old cow who was down and couldn’t get up, obviously dying. He got out his gun, squatted beside her and patted her head, told her he knew she had been the best cow she knew how to be and he respected her. Then he shot her. I was bawling and he had tears in his eyes.

I don’t know what that has to do with the question but I think it must be related somehow. She was too old to butcher, the dingos and kites had her.

No, I don’t think so.

@BBSDTfamily, my eleventh-grade English teacher pointed out to us that we tend to use two sets of words for farm animals, one set for the animal on the hoof (as it were) and one set for the animal viewed as food, and that the live words are from the German and the food words are from the French. Kuh – boeuf; Schwein – porc; Schaf – mouton. I guess there’s some truth in that, but I don’t know what it means, other than that the French have always ruled the kitchen (Küche – cuisine).

@BBSDTfamily I know that method from the people who own the farm I worked on, back when I raised chickens. They are a couple, and she is the county’s large animal vet. The X method is how they kill their own cows on their farm (the ones that don’t go for butchering, that is – the very old and incurably lame or sick).

I would love to think that I could kill something and watch it die then eat it if I wanted to.

@Jeruba If we called them by their living names, a lot less people would buy them. I am sure there are more than 2 names for farm animals- more than 10 probably. Livestock companies choose what they call their products for a specific reason or two, as does every company selling a product. Much thought goes into those things.

All marketing departments think about the names they give things. But these differences were in our language long before there was such a thing as supermarkets and livestock companies.

We don’t have two names for fish or chicken, and people buy plenty of them.

@Samurai I’m not sure if I’m reading your statement the way you intend it or not… but it’s not at all fun to slaughter an animal. Watching them die is a poignant moment, especially if their eyes are open, watching you watch them die. They know they’re dying, and it always seemed to me they knew I was the one who killed them.

@wildpotato Oh okay that makes sense. I was referring to the slaughterhouses earlier, which is the main method for farm animals to die. Today’s methods seem to center around profitability and convenience rather than being humane.

@wildpotato I may just be trying to be a wannabe sadist.

@Jeruba If the name is not what you meant earlier when you said the packaged meat is a far cry from a lively cow in the pasture, what did you mean? They sell whole chickens. Some steaks have bones in them. Ground beef is bloody. What is it that allows you to put it to the back of your mind and pretend it is not a dead animal you’re eating? And regardless of when the terms first came about, it is a lot more pleasant to say “I’m going to run and get some porkchops” than “I’m going to run and go get some pig”. It helps us separate the meal from the animal.

@Samurai Have you read Ender’s Game? Check it out if not – it’s a really great read, and you may find that you feel a connection with the character Peter. He ends up running the world eventually.

@BBSDTfamily Slaughterhouses generally do not kill cows using such an expensive method as shooting them. They prefer not to spend the money on bullets, and to avoid agitating the meat that much. That’s why they often use air guns.

You’re right, my experience was a bit different from the norm. This was an organic farm, and the cows themselves were only not organic because the owner would give them antibiotics when they needed small amounts for infections and such, and official organic cows cannot receive any antibiotics at all, even for legitimate medical reasons.

@wildpotato
that is such an awesome book

@wildpotato Sounds like a good book, read about it on the Wikipedia.

I am well aware that I am eating a dead animal when I eat meat, no matter what it’s called. I don’t think calling it ‘cow’ or ‘pig’ rather than ‘beef’ or ‘pork’ would make any difference. I mean, people eat pig’s feet, frog legs, chicken wings, and cow’s tongue, right? I don’t think that’s an issue at all.

Now, on to your actual question. I couldn’t kill the animal under ordinary circumstances, because I would instantly bond with it. I could not eat animals I raised, or that I knew the name of, etc… Now, if my circumstances changed and I had to hunt to survive, I’d do it in a heartbeat. It may be hypocritical, but I don’t really see it that way. I don’t like to kill bugs either (though I do, if I have to), but have no problem with my husband doing it for me.

@wildpotato It is not uncommon to have to cut the throat of the animal also so that they will die more quickly. It is most often not instant, not painless, and not a surprise to the animal that something bad is about to happen… often they witness the animal ahead of them being slaughtered. When I first became interested in this topic I did probably a little too much investigating for my own good.

Let’s all eat Soylent Green, why don’t we?

om nom nom people

@TitsMcGhee
ITS PEOPLE!!!!!!

<—- is baffled at all the people who couldn’t kill animals themselves, but can still eat them. If we had to have meat to exist that would be different, but since we do not it just seems extremely selfish to choose to cause the animal to be slaughtered just for the pleasure of eating them. :( Not acknowledging the messy, painful death they suffer is even worse in my opinion. It just does not seem logical to me. Oh well! (I don’t mean eating meat in general- I mean supporting animal cruelty via factory farming. If a cow was killed as humanely as a deer for example, I’d enjoy every bite of the steak.)

@BBSDTfamily That’s how we killed our chickens, actually. How it worked was, take chicken cradled in your arms and swiftly but gently move it upside down into the chicken cone with its head out the bottom so it can’t flap around and injure itself, and as quickly as possible (and with a knife you sharpen every time just beforehand) slice off its whole head. The whole process took about 15 seconds. Then it’s just the body bleeding out and the head to deal with – we tried to get the heads in a bag before they could register the sight of their own bodies or us. Never knew how much they could understand, beheaded and all and in their last second of awareness, but we all hated catching their eyes in those moments before they filmed over.

We would have tried the spin-and-twist method (like that guy does in the movie Babel) because we heard it’s easier on them to break their necks, but we were afraid of hurting them more by not doing it correctly. Wish I’d known about fluther back then; I think Lupin and one or two others on here might know a bit about this.

You’re right about the stress it puts on the others, too – we would stop slaughtering and hose off the area as quickly as possible if the wind changed towards the chicken house, or they would start screaming.

@wildpotato It seems that people who farm their own animals for their own food go the most humane route possible. I guess b/c they may have an attachment to the animal or because profitability is not their focus. I think that’s great, and I wish I had a friend or relative who had the lifestyle so that I could have a steak or a piece of bacon! My issue is animal cruelty in general, and the meat industry falls into that category. If we could pass stricter laws and enforce them then I would be completely happy! But, that would cut into profit, the meat industry is a giant that has lots of people well-positioned within it, so that will never happen :(

@BBSDTfamily
You can ensure that your meat is treated humanely, can you not? Or do you not trust it unless you see it with your own eyes?

@BBSDTfamily, it has nothing to do with the words. If meat were labeled as what it is, people would get used to it quickly enough. Real carnivores don’t let much interfere with their appetites. The sensitive ones would just let someone else do the shopping.

By distance I meant that it does not resemble a living thing. A steak does not look much like a cow. A packaged London broil does not recall the cattleyard. A chicken breast does not show me how it used to move and walk. I silence the voice that tells me it’s blood. Instead it’s “juice.” And I let my husband handle it all; at dinner, he cooks the meat and I take care of the vegetables.

I avoid anything that reminds me too much of the body it came in. I never buy whole chickens. A Thanksgiving turkey is harder and harder for me to deal with every year because it is so nearly an entire body. I make an exception for a lobster, but if they put him down facing me in the restaurant, I’m going to have trouble. If I allow myself to think much about what I’m doing, I lose my appetite, and any subject remotely touching on butchery or reminding me where our main course came from is forbidden at my table. I do have a moral objection to slaughtering animals, unlike @DominicX, and that is why it may not be hypocrisy for him, but it is for me.

I think animals should be guillotined if they are going to be used for food.

Is cloned meat considered part of a dead animal?

@jackm I do not eat any meat unless the rare occasion comes up that I know exactly how that specific animal was killed, and approve of it. If by ensuring meat is treated humanely you mean “free-range” or terms such as that, no that only means “more humanely than others”. Not humane. I have no reason to trust that my meat was killed humanely if I don’t know specifics because there are inhumane ways of kililng them that are legal.

@BBSDTfamily If you or anyone else reading this would like to go this route, I can ask my friends on that farm if they’re still doing mail-order meats through their website. PM me. And if they aren’t doing it any more, I’m sure it’s possible to find other such online organic/natural/humane farm stores.

@Jeruba Okay I understand what you are saying now. Please tell me this though (not to argue, but because I really just want to understand and you can explain quite well)- for the meat eaters who are relatively sensitive, how is it that they allow themselves to do something they have a moral objection to? I think the reason I have trouble is because the very day I caught wind of the fact that animals weren’t just shot in the head without knowing a thing, I stopped eating them. I didn’t agree with it, so I can’t support it. To me that makes sense, but I want to understand any other logical explanation out there (so that I can think better of people w/ differing viewpoints. It’s hard to be compassionate about their views when I don’t understand them at all)

@BBSDTfamily
To be honest, people really just don’t care that much. When specifically asked, they will say they care about animal life. But in the end, it just an animal, and it really doesn’t matter that much.

Most people can easily forget something if they don’t care too much about it.

@wildpotato Thanks! I haven’t eaten any beef or pork in years, didn’t know it would ever be an option for me.

@jackm You’re right, there are lots of people like that. What I was asking in this question though is for the ones that do care and still eat meat, how do they rationalize it. For example my father has absolutely no compassion for almost any animal, so I never wondered why he eats meat daily. Many people do care though but go about their meat eating as normal, and so I am trying to understand that viewpoint.

If you aren’t the one eating all the parts of the animal, then it isn’t all your fault, its better then taking full responsibility right?

@BBSDTfamily
I was trying to explain that. People say they “care”. Obviously if any of us cared as much as you do, then we wouldn’t eat meat.

I think you are wondering why people can not care as much as you. For me, it just doesn’t really matter. Animals are just dumb, non-conscience things.

@jackm Ok I gotcha thanks for trying to explain to me. Are you being serious or joking about animals being dumb, unconscience things? We have known for many, many years that this is not true. Some species more than others, but definitely not true the way you stated it.

Well, @BBSDTfamily, I don’t mean to be rude, but I didn’t ask you for compassion, you don’t owe it to me, and I may not be able to supply an explanation you will consider logical. I don’t feel obligated to explain this behavior to your satisfaction. I don’t defend it. I simply gave an honest answer to your question without promising that I could justify it.

I quit eating veal the day I read Maxine Kumin’s poem “The Vealers,” when I was about 24, and have tasted it only once in the decades since, when my mother-in-law-to-be served it shortly before I married her son. Afterwards my fiance comforted me and told me I’d handled it well. I would not miss meat if I didn’t have it. I like meat flavors, but I don’t actually like meat very much. So I am not far from vegetarianism in my thoughts and my feelings, both by preference and by conviction.

The main reason I carry on with a diet that includes meat is that my husband is a real meat lover. As a working woman and a mother of children, I was just never able to seriously contemplate cooking and serving two menus every night. Vegetarian dinners always require so much more fussy preparation than just a steak, potatoes, and a salad or a chicken breast with some rice and vegetables. So I eat a small amount of meat, a few ounces, and try not to think about it. One day I may give it up entirely, but I’m not there yet.

He means “unconscious.”

What an idea! Some people actually eat the animals they kill? It just gets better and better!

@BBSDTfamily
I do not think the animals we eat are conscience. I know they are not self aware. I do think they are dumb.

Something else I haven’t eaten since living on the farm is lamb. My friend pointed out that they are babies. And ever since thinking of them like that, I just couldn’t eat them. It’s different from not eating beef or pork – more of obeying a feeling of instant revulsion than working off of a reasoned refusal.

Yes.

I’ll get over it. So long as it’s cooked and prepared beyond “living” recognition.

I HAVE killed my own food , i would rather kill my own food and do all the dirty work . If i could i would rather go into a field and kill a cow or whatever , it’s a heck of alot better than buying it from the butcher or shop .

Yes, I could kill an animal for food. But, I know I am not capable of gutting the animal properly, and would still have to pay someone to do so.
I would not kill for fun or for sport though.

Yes, I could. I might not like it since I’m not used to it, but I’m quite certain that I could. I’ve killed, cleaned, and eaten may fish, and I’m certain a mammal would be a somewhat different matter, but I’ve no doubt I could do it. The notion of it doesn’t bother me in the least.

@wildpotato I’m pretty convinced that there are two utterly divergent reason for why we eat lamb and veal. One is that if you were a fairly poor, self-sufficient farmer and you had more calves and lambs born than you could afford to raise or would ultimately need for meat or milk, and you couldn’t sell them, then it made more sense to slaughter and eat them.

The opposite is a little more advance farming society in which you can afford to pay good money for a calf or lamb and eat it without raising it to provide the maximum amount of meat. In this case eating veal or lamb is actually an act of conspicuous consumption. You are showing those around you (at least your dinner guests) that you can afford this extravagant luxury.

The first of these is frugal and necessary and I have no problem with it. The second is a bit closer to where we are now and I have moral objections to it as an act of waste and conspicuous consumption.

I agree with @rooeytoo, if I really had to (ie: it was a matter of survival) then yes, I would hunt my own food. I wouldn’t enjoy doing it but if I had to then I would.

However, although I don’t eat much meat (I can take it or leave it) I am glad that other people are employed to do that for me and like @rooeytoo I am extremely choosy as to where the meat I consume comes from. If I can’t trust that it is free range then I don’t bother because I don’t care enough about eating meat (ie: I don’t NEED it in my diet) to get it from just anywhere.

@Jeruba Then why even answer this question at all if you don’t want to answer the main question I asked?

I might, but in any case I’m not allowed to do so in Germany. You need to be a certified butcher sticking to all animal protection laws.

Ethical farmers really care for their domesticated animals. Compared the harsh life of those animal’s wild ancestors I wouldn’t consider farming as being cruel. In the wild many animals suffer from diseases or die from starvation.

However, I consider it unethical to eat far too much meat. The main reason are the excessive resources needed for farm animals. Cows contribute to global warming. Eating more plants means being able to feed more of our global population. Meat has to be considered a luxury. We need a little for our health, but we don’t need a lot of it.

@jackm Not thinking the animals we eat are conscience makes about the same sense as not thinking there are clouds in the sky. We know it to be true, but I guess you’re free to believe it or not…. maybe you do not understand what conscience means?

No, I doubt I could, but I’d let others do it for me. Anyhow, I only eat poultry and seafood. I could easily kill and eat the seafood, but not the chicken.

@tinyfaery What’s the difference between killing a chicken and killing a fish, really? Chickens aren’t much brighter or more similar to humans. Or is it just the amount of work and blood?

Because I am such an animal lover. Chickens are foul (hehe) creatures, but still cute and I could easily be sympathetic towards a chicken, but I just have no emotional reaction to fish.

@tinyfaery I see the difference too… while both are living creatures that can feel pain, I am okay with them being killed for food IF it is done humanely. Those are the 2 animals I feel the least amount of compassion for also. I think for me it has more to do with the fact that they don’t care for their young, so I don’t get as upset about them being killed.

@BBSDTfamily: I think that’s where a lot of issues come into the whole “humane treatment of animals” question. People seem to only care about animals that are cute, but could care less about fish or squids or snakes. I have compassion for animals, but I also value a healthy, balanced diet. People were intended to eat meat; that’s why we have teeth and a digestive system that are designed to tear and process meat, why we have the natural instinct to hunt, and why our body chemistry calls for things that meat provides (that most single vegetarian items lack), like protein, amino acids, and iron. We think it’s awful to kill cute animals and eat them because of our mental construct of “cute.” A coyote has never stopped to think if he should eat that rabbit because it’s cute. True, we don’t do our hunting ourselves anymore, but that’s just a function of the way humanity evolved, if you can call it that. If you had to and knew how, though, I’m sure you would give in and kill that cute rabbit or cow or sheep and eat it. I think what people should advocate a humane environment and method of slaughter for all animals rather than say that people just shouldn’t eat them, and that applies to all animals, not just the cute ones.

Sorry, but it is patently untrue to state that meat is necessary for a balanced and healthful diet, nor do I see any logic behind the idea that we were “designed” to eat meat therefore it’s morally acceptable to do so. Nature is completely blind to morality, compassion, and justice. The two ideas (evolution and morality) are completely orthogonal to each other.

On the health costs and benefits of not eating meat:

“No matter what your age or situation, a well-planned vegetarian diet can meet your nutritional needs. Even children and teenagers can do well on a plant-based diet, as can older people, and pregnant or breast-feeding women.” The Mayo Clinic

“Mortality from ischemic heart disease was 24% lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians.” The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

“Mean systolic and diastolic BP fell significantly in both study groups during the vegetarian diet, but rose when returning to the omnivorous diet.” The Lancet

“Within both the male and female Adventist populations, the prevalence of self-reported diabetes also was lower in vegetarians than in non-vegetarians.” The American Journal of Public Health

I can keep going…

@nikipedia, @TitsMcGhee I don’t think human beings are “designed” to do anything, but our jaws and teeth clearly have evolved to be able to process meat. While we can get all the nutrients we need from a vegetarian diet, it’s not easy to do. We not only evolved to eat meat, we evolved by eating meat. The vegetarian diets available to our hunter/gatherer ancestors did not provide enough fat and protein to develop the large brains that enable us to have this discussion. Eating meat enabled us to get smart enough to ponder whether we should eat meat.

Whether we should eat meat is another matter, but I for one see no reason not to. As @mattbrowne said, I do think we eat way too much meat now and should limit our meat intake.

@nikipedia: I never said that it wasn’t possible to have a healthy and balanced diet as a vegetarian, I was just pointing out that it is natural for humans to eat meat. The food chain has been a part of life since life was created, and morality is a human concept that was thought up long after animals were eating one another. It is more natural, then, to eat meat than to feel compassion for animals and not eat them. The food chain also evolved to combat overpopulation of animals; if everyone stopped eating animals, think about how overrun we would be with them. Compassion is great and all, but I refuse to be guilted into not eating meat when it is just a function of life, human or not. I certainly advocate the humane treatment of animals, but part of their purpose for being here is as a food source for humans and other animals.

@gussnarp: I didn’t mean “designed” in a religious sense, just in an evolutionary manner, but I appreciate that you understand my point.

@TitsMcGhee:

Yes, morality is a human concept and I would not want to exist in a world without it. Animals also routinely rape and torture each other (ever seen a cat and a mouse?); are you really going to argue that something being “natural” makes it morally acceptable?

Are you really trying to say that morals are simply irrelevant to your decision making process?

And your previous post clearly implied that you think vegetarian diets are deficient in necessary nutrients; the purpose of my post was to point out that not only is this untrue but in many regards a vegetarian diet is more healthful than an omnivorous diet.

To the vegetarians regarding humane slaughter: thankfully, people like Temple Grandin are working (and successfully influential) with slaughterhouses to change inhumane practices.

Her book, Animals in Translation is truly excellent reading.

@TitsMcGhee I agree! I didn’t say it in the initial question, but in several responses in this thread I’ve said that I’m not against eating meat in general, but just in the cruelty involved in factory farming. There are easy ways of getting protein, along with all of the essential amino acids, and iron even if you are a vegan. Eating meat is an adaptation mechanism, not a necessity for humans. We have the ability to get absolutely everything we need without ever eating meat. But besides that, I agree with humane killing of animals for the purpose of eating. Eating cows and pigs etc. that are factory farmed isn’t humane though, so I don’t.

@nikipedia Well said!

I’m just wondering somerthing that people never seem to answer when I ask: is it or is not necessary for a vegetarian/vegan to take pills and dietary supplements to get the proper nutrition needed?

@DominicX I’m curious about that too, because I’ve thought about becoming a vegetarian but I seem to get low iron easily..I don’t eat meat too often, a burger here and there, so it wouldn’t be a huge change for me. I think I’d do more research before taking the plunge. I do wonder how people raise vegetarian babies/children and how they supplement though.

@BBSDTfamily, isn’t this the main question?

Could you kill that cow/pig/etc. yourself to get that steak/sausage/etc. you’re eating?

I answered it honestly and thoughtfully. You speculated “out of sight, out of mind?” and I basically said yes, that is how I do it. I have thought about this question a lot and for many years, and this is where I am now. You seem dissatisfied with the fact that I have contradictions in my own mind and acknowledged them. I’m sorry you don’t like my answers.

@DominicX The main thing you have to be careful of if you are going to be a vegan is B12. If you’re just going vegetarian, you can easily get everything you need. I think the most common misconception (or at least the one I get asked about the most) is amino acids. All you need to get all the essential amino acids is a whole grain and a legume in your meal. And protein is found in so many foods besides meat.

@casheroo If you ever decide to go that route, just get an iron supplement from your local drug store. We’re throwing around the idea of raising our son vegetarian or at least mostly vegetarian. It’s not a problem as long as you feed them a balanced diet and a vitamin for back-up (which most people do anyway regardless of being vegetarian or not). Our doctor has said it is absolutely fine (I knew everything was fine for adults, but checked to make sure it was okay for babies).

I’ve tried it. I shared in buying a piglet and raising it to eating size and then slaughtering it for food. I couldn’t eat it.

The main reason we eat meat at our house is that my husband is on dialysis and needs to get a certain amount of protein. He cannot eat beans, doesn’t like protein supplements, protein shakes or protein bars, and will only eat a small amount of tofu prepared in a specific way. The only way we can do this is “out of sight, out of mind” and by buying meat from free-range, organic, antibiotic-free, and grass-fed animals. It costs more but a little meat goes a long way.

My daughter only eats chicken breast, while my son prefers hamburger.

@nikipedia: No, I was not trying to say that morals are irrelevant to decision making, but eating meat is not a decision that I think morals really enter into. You’re making flippant assumptions and jumping to conclusions. That’s a ridiculously broad statement given what I wrote. My previous post in no way “clearly implied” that I thought anything whatsoever of vegetarian diets. I just said that meat, as a single item, provided a number of things that our bodies require. One would be hard pressed to find a single vegetarian item that contains all of those things. If you want to live your life that way, be my guest, but don’t berate me for choosing something that I, as a human, was naturally intended to do. And, with careful monitoring, portion control, supplementation, etc., etc., diets containing a variety of different components can be healthy. That’s also something that differs from person to person. The things our body needs can indeed come from a variety of sources, and meat just happens to be one of them. That’s how I choose to intake the proteins, amino acids and iron I need. If you want to intake that with whole grains, beans, chickpeas, iron tablets, or whatever else, go right ahead. I wouldn’t dream of telling you that your choice is wrong, and I would hope that you wouldn’t tell me that what I am doing is wrong.

Lastly, morals, as a societal construct, vary greatly from place to place and era to era. What is natural is a constant among humans, as we all evolved from the same ancestors. Not eating meat because we think it’s “wrong” is a new concept that contradicts thousands of years of human evolution. I am perfectly happy to allow vegetarians, vegans, Atkins diet believers, or any other dietary subset to eat precisely what they choose. Don’t fault me for a diet that is natural. If you want to fault anyone, fault those who came up with the methods of farming and slaughter that you take issue with, and those who continue to do perform those acts. My not eating meat is not going to stop that from happening, and, in the mean time, I’m going to continue with my balanced diet.

@casheroo I know how you feel, I have considered dropping meat from my diet completely due to the fact that I don’t care for the taste of meat and, seeing as I do only buy free range, it is costing me too much money! The humane option is certainly not the cheap option!

However, before I do that I need to make sure that I can get EVERYTHING else my body needs without it. This is not something I feel I can talk to people who are veggies due to their own moral beliefs (no offence intended to anyone that falls into that bracket) because when seeking advice from someone about this I don’t want their personal beliefs to come into it. I want honest, medical advice and so far every time I have tried that (because I too have problems with low iron) I have been advised to keep a little meat in my diet.

@TitsMcGhee: I’m not attacking you personally, but your argument simply doesn’t make sense to me. I don’t understand how you can just decide that a given action doesn’t have moral implications, particularly when that action involves taking a life.

And I stand by my statement that you were trying to imply (not outright state) that a vegetarian diet is deficient, and that having essential amino acids and iron in one source is somehow superior. Or else I don’t see why you would have brought it up. This was a fact stated with the intention of demonstrating the superiority of an omivorous diet, not a random factoid thrown in for funsies.

I certainly agree that morals are relative and subject to change. But in the society we exist in now, a moral code exists that we should abide by in the society we exist in now. Should some catastrophic (or miraculous) event change society, certainly our morals would shift and we would be forced to reevaluate our behavior. So you are actually making my point for me: because eating meat was once morally acceptable (when we were animals without another choice), that does not mean that it remains morally acceptable…precisely because morals change.

@nikipedia: Not “superiority,” rather validity of an omnivorous diet. And I have trouble believing that it’s not a personal attack on me and my choices, in all honesty, when I clarify what I meant and you tell me, once again, what I meant. Quite frankly, that’s bullshit. If you can choose to tell me what I meant by what I wrote, I’m going to choose to tell you that what you wrote is a personal attack, and you can’t tell me otherwise because I stand by my statement of what you were trying to imply. You are making my point for me now.

Furthermore, we do not live in a society that sees the consumption of meat as a moral issue. In 2006, the Vegetarian Resource Group found that 6.7 percent of American adults say they never eat meat, and only 2.3 percent say that they never eat meat, fish, or poultry/fowl. That’s hardly a majority, and society’s moral codes are typically made up by the majority. Personal moral codes are an entirely different subject, but who are you to tell me that my personal moral beliefs are wrong? I don’t think that I should stop eating meat because tofu was invented, and I am, therefore, no longer “an animal without another choice.” Just because another choice exists does not mean it is the right one for me. I am not saying that I advocate the mistreatment, abuse, or inhumane treatment of animals to produce my hamburger, pork chop, or chicken breast. I do not, however, think that the death of animals to feed people is wrong. There is a food chain for a reason, and humans, thanks to evolution, have had the mental capacity to form farms and meat processing and packing. If you think that’s morally offensive, bully for you. I don’t, and I’m sticking with that, no matter how many PETA ads are shown, no matter how many versions of the “Fast Food Nation” shock-literature come out, no matter how many rabid vegans tell me that meat is murder. I have canines in my mouth, and I plan on using them for what they were intended for.

@MissAnthrope – I agree all should read Temple Ghandin, she is an amazing woman.

I have always wondered if she is vegetarian but have never read whether she is, do you know?

It seems she does eat meat. (link; do a ctrl-F and search for ‘vegetarian’)

I kind of thought I saw her making her dinner on Youtube and it was burgers or something meaty.

If I get taken by a croc, I am the croc’s lunch. It is just the way it is. I just hope the croc kills me humanely and quickly and enjoys the taste of me because I have put a lot of work into maintaining this body over the years.

I feel the same way about a cow or a pig or a chicken. I wouldn’t eat my pet chicken but the others are okay. But they should have a good life until they become my lunch.

And the fact that I don’t kill them myself is irrelevant to me. I use the toilet but I don’t pump out the septic tank.

@Leanne1986 Are you opposed to taking a daily vitamin? If not and you only want to go vegetarian (meaning you’d still eat dairy and maybe even eggs) you have nothing to worry about. P.S.- I’m not a vegetarian Pick up a book on it, and ask your doctor why specifically they want you to keep meat in your diet. If it’s only because of the low iron, you can take a multivitamin or just a straight iron pill from your local drug store or Wal-Mart

Pig
Shot it, helped gut and stuff it.
Wrapped it in gauze and banana leaves lower it into a pit of hot rocks.
Ate it the next afternoon…

@boffin: OM NOM NOM NOM. Hope it was tasty.

@nikipedia – I think you misunderstood the message of the research studies you are referring to. Yes, most vegetarians are healthier and live longer than the average ‘meat eater’. However, the average ‘meat eater’ does consume too much meat and typically relies on an unhealthy non-balanced diet. I’ve heard about studies showing that non-vegetarians who eat just a very small amount of meat or fish are actually slightly healthier and live slightly longer than vegetarians. I’ve read about this in a German popular science magazine a few years ago. I would have to search the web to find some sources there. Maybe the studies are not conclusive, I’m not sure.

I think @gussnarp made an important point that many modern day healthy vegetarians depend on globalization and transportation. The best way actually would be using local farmers, eat a little bit of eggs, drink a little bit of milk, eat a little bit of fish and (maybe) a little bit of meat. Moderation is key instead of sticking to dogmas.

@mattbrowne Gosh, I didn’t mean to make that point, but it is an interesting one.

@gussnarp – Well, 25,000 years ago human tribes in Europe struggling with the ice age especially in the winter didn’t have the opportunity to shop at Tesco’s or a Walmart hypermarket and get kiwis from New Zealand.

If there had been vegans in a family launching into a diatribe when the hunters brought back a dead mammoth, requesting soybeans from Africa, because they felt sorry for the pure creature, I’m not sure they got old enough to have sex. So vegans today are in fact descendants of our brutal carnivore ancestors trying to stay alive (during wintertime).

@mattbrowne Ahhh, so you’re connecting it to my statement on the evolution of meat eating and the difficulty of a vegetarian diet to our ancestors. I see the connection, nice development of the idea.

@BBSDTfamily I’m not opposed to taking a daily vitamin or iron suppliment but I have proven in the past that I am crap at remembering to take tablets when I am supposed to!!! Because of this I am happier if I can get everything I need naturally from food. Having said that, with the little meat that is currently in my diet I am sure it wouldn’t make a too much of a difference anyway.

@Leanne1986 Other foods high in iron are Green Leafy Vegetables: Spinach, Asparagus, Broccoli, Collard Greens, Mustard Greens, Kale, Turnip Greens, Parsley, Cabbage

@mattbrowne: You understand! I’m so glad someone gets what I’m trying to say.

@mattbrowne: One of the studies I referenced examines just that question:

Further categorization of diets showed that, in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans.

So your point is well-taken, but incorrect. Eating less meat is good, but not as good as eating only fish, only a lactoovovegetarian diet, or being vegan.

And for what it’s worth, I buy my eggs at the farmer’s market.

@nikipedia Interesting that fish, milk, and egg eaters do better than vegans, though.

What doesn’t kill you nowadays though? Anything in excess is not good.

@BBSDTfamily Spinach, asparagus and brocilli. I would happily live on those things alone! Thanks for the advice.

@nikipedia – Your clarification is appreciated. So long, and thanks for all the fish!

I have no problem catching, killing and eating fish. I suspect in my case it becomes most difficult when I know the animal personally, and when I have other sources of protein available to me.

WTF people? ...animals were put on this earth for us to enjoy…and I do enjoy a good steak! Dont get me wrong, I am all about the humane treatment of livestock by “THE MAN” of corprate America. It is morally and ethically wrong to mistreat the animals we eat. At the same time, Americans are such sissies…afraid of killing their own food and apparently fearful of wearing big boy underwear. And you guys wonder why the rest of the world wants to kick our @$#. GROW A SET!

Lame and sexist.

@Carnivor – Why would I want to wear big boy underwear? I am a girl.