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SquirrelEStuff's avatar

When will big government be to big for you to stand up to it?

Asked by SquirrelEStuff (10012points) February 4th, 2008

http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/02/04/fbi.biometrics/index.html

1984 anyone?

“Pastor Niemoller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing: and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something – but then it was too late.”

“Yes,” I said.

“You see,” my colleague went on, “one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not? – Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

“Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’

“And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. ...

“But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked – if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ‘43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ‘33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

“And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jew swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in – your nation, your people – is not the world you were in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God.” ...

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22 Answers

jrpowell's avatar

It is already too big. See the budget bill today. That is why I will vote for the democratic candidate. I think Ron Paul is a whacko if that is what you are going for.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

The constitution is very wacky, John. You are right. We should rip it up and let you write it. IIf ANY candidate or congressman, upheld the only oath of office that they take, we would not have this budget problem. If you think a democratic candidate is going to help with that, you are wacko.
And no, thats not at all what I was going for. As you know, when I want to bring up Ron Paul, I will. But thanks for mentioning his name for the many, many people that still have not heard of him thanks to the media.

jrpowell's avatar

The crazy bear hug on the Constitution.. It is a old document. Perhaps it needs some modifications to adjust to our current situation. Do I think the Democrats will spend less.. I doubt it. But they will spend it in better places than the Republicans.

And Ron Paul is still a whacko.

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

Perhaps if we followed the constitution, we wouldnt be in our current situation. And why exactly do you think he is a wacko?

cwilbur's avatar

@chris6137: so what are you doing about the problem, besides posting screeds on Fluther?

You may note, in the case of Reverend Niemoller, that he put his money where his mouth was: he was one of the founders of the anti-Nazi Confessing Churches, and he was arrested and imprisoned for it.

Poser's avatar

When did Americans become so afraid of freedom?

Poser's avatar

@johnpowell—Define “Better places.”

SquirrelEStuff's avatar

@cwilbur

At this moment, I have been doing everything I possibly can to get Ron Paul (yes I said his name) elected. He is the only candidate talking about restoring civil liberties. He talks about the unconstitutionality of the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, Violent Radicalization and Home-grown terrorism Prevention Act, and the Real ID.

And believe me when I say this, I will not stop after he does or does not get elected. Its not called the Ron Paul Revolution for nothing.

“Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.“JFK

hossman's avatar

chris, I suspect we have permitted far more to be done to impose upon our liberties in the name of “fairness” and protection from those “evil corporations” than has been done in the name of defeating terrorism.

“Every movement that seeks to enslave a country, every dictatorship or potential dictatorship, needs some minority group as a scapegoat which it can blame for the nation’s troubles and use as a justification of its own demand for dictatorial powers. In Soviet Russia, the scapegoat was the bourgeoisie; in Nazi Germany, it was the Jewish people; in America, it is the businessmen.”
—Ayn Rand

I think this has direct application to your Niemoller account above.

Charlie's avatar

FREEDOM IS NOT FREE!! Most people in this country will not stand up and be heard because most people in this country want to be taken care of without doing anything to take care of themselves. Play games, Let Mommie and Dadie take care of them
,etc. How few people realize that WE, the people of this country, are the ones that is the real government? Very few because they can’t get away from their PC’s and nintindo’s and go out and even find a job!!! BUT, these are the majority of people today. No good, lay arounds, that go out and do nothing but get fatter then they already are, liveing off the blood, sweat, and tears of someone else. That sort of sounds like a politician because that is exactly what they do!!! I joined the NRA the other day. What kind of freedom will you have if you have no means to protect yourself from the abuse of your own fellow (stupid) man or the people in our government. I can not beleive that most people have no idea of what their FREEDOM means and it sure is NOT FREE.
Keep your guns handy because before this is all over you are going to need’um.

Charlie's avatar

The Constitution of the United States is the one supreme law that is left to protect a citizen of this country from the goverment. I use it, I adore it, it is almost as good as a Bible. And, I have used it against the people in our government without any contest!!!

vanguardian's avatar

you basically just summed up liberalism in a fluther question…

ironhiway's avatar

Chris it’s interesting you pose this question since the man you support suggests that we ignore the plight of others because they are not of this country.

It’s also interesting in the light of a post in the, “Ron Paul graphs blog”, by the author about how out of a town of about 2–3K 13 people, republicans, showed up to Caucus, a record by the way. 3 of which were for Ron Paul. The blogger personally new of many who stumped for Paul but on the day to make a stand they were nowhere to be found.

He himself is heavily involved keeping all sorts of statistical data and graphs flowing but whom did he influence his girlfriend and maybe the other one person there.

I believe many here are making a stand by sharing there views of the candidates they support, and or the parties they follow. One great thing about Fluther is it’s diversity and somewhat peaceful dissention among it’s members when they don’t agree. Tomorrow many of us will make our stand by showing up to make our choice.

Happy Super Tuesday to all.

Charlie's avatar

There is a new “hit” on the whole thing at www.worldreports.org. As far as I can see there isn’t a person running that would deserve to get voted for.

Charlie's avatar

What I have a problem with is WHO, that is in politics already, has done ANYTHING for the people out here, is even worth voteing for. WHAt has any of these people done running for the highest office ever done that THEY can afford Millions of $$$$$ to get elected. I can’t, you can’t, no common person out here that knows the problems with this country can and the ones running have no idea nor care what is going on. Thats why everything is being made in China and most of your jobs are being taken by illegal aleins. Vote for the ones now running and it will only get worse, Democrats or Republicans or some little green man from Mars. Who cares when none, not one, is going to do a thing for you OR me. The winner will do one thing which most have already done, and that is Tax you, rob you, and try to take every FREEDOM you have away. They talk about change. Change what if it isn’t broken and if it is Broke most of the runners are the very ones that BROKE it. And who pays the money that these people are useing to get elected? YOU and me and the rest of the working poor people do. Did anyone notice that anyone that goes into politics comes out a multi-millionaire. It’s a very good job to have. WE not only give him/her everything they need to live includeing a retirement fund, but also pay them to make Laws that ROB you out of your money and your FREEDOM/Rights. GOD bless America, someone had better!!

trainerboy's avatar

Chris, I disagreed with you on some of the conspiracy theories, I do agree with you on voting Libertarian. The only party that will actually do something to reduce the size of government is the Libertarian party. The only party that beleives security at the price of liberty is not the job of the government is the Libertarian party.
By the way, Ron Paul may be called a wacko but when the signers of the Declaration of Independence signed it, they were only representing 3% of the population that was willing to put it all on the line in the name of liberty.

Charlie's avatar

Sorry, but YOU nor I will ever be allowed to vote anyway but Dumbycrat or Republicrat. It is, and has been, all sewed up that NO other party can be in the Political game of this illegal Government that is suppost to be ours. The reason is the programable Diebold voteing machines and VOTE SCAM. Have fun with this but it is a fact.

flipper's avatar

Never.
The government is not big enough. We need big government to protect us and provide because we as people cannot do it ourselves. We are basically incapable and it is to our benefit that government will guarantee a minimum standard.

trainerboy's avatar

When people realize that we bascially have one party running against itself in the form of Democrats and Republicans. Both growing government and encroaching mroe and more on our liberties in order to preserve our way of life.

Charlie's avatar

MY god,people are idiots. Dosn’t anyone have a thought in there heads? The whole scope is that if you are not a dumbicrat or a republicrat you flat don’t count. How is that for freedom?
Never, you are up to your ears. There is 545 people that is totally responceable for any problem that is within this country. Why then are we some place else trying to solve someone elses problem when some A—can’t solve the problems here. those people over in Iran or where ever they are, the real problem is that OUR people within OUR government sent them there to do WHAT? It has NO bareing on my life or yours unless someone you know is over there putting their life on the line for some dumbass politician.
WAKE UP{

trainerboy's avatar

Charlie,
You are obviously very passionate about what you believe. However, you speak of elected officials doing things for us. That to me is part of the problem. We, the people keep asking government to do it for us. Whenever they do something for us, they are really doing it “to” us. Every law takes away liberty. Some laws are worthwhile, like laws against harming others, but laws on taxation (remember, it is voluntary! LOL!!!) drugs, welfare, etc. are what people ask for because we the people have bought into the idea that government is supposed to do things for us.
To me the job of government is to make sure I have the freedom to succeed or fail. It is not for them to guarantee a degree of succes or to prevent me from falling. We as people are capable, but we are slowly being fed the Kool-Aid of government dependency.
I am not disagreeing with you, except where you state that elected officials are not doing things for us. Yes they are, that is the problem. Next, they are going to “give” us the facade of Universal Health Care. No thanks.

Charlie's avatar

I am passionate about the Government and people. You are very correct in what you have said. IF the common public doesn’t watch what it’s elected officials do then they will do what they think is best for US and, of course, themselves. WE are the Government but if nobody tells the officials what WE want or don’t then the Governing becomes the Governed and that is what has been happening for the last 100 years nearly.
I just baought my own heathcare the other day. No way do I want the people within MY Government try to manage my health.

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