How can I help someone I know and love overcome their denial and come out of the closet?

Maybe he is in a different closet. I am as rampantly hetero as you can get – yet since my teens many people have considered me gay – mostly because I am well spoken and perhaps a little more refined than the average male around me. I set off “gaydar” consistently – it is how I managed to have so many gay friends. You might be making the same mistake.

Sounds like you want this person to see and believe what you do. On your terms.

It is not about what you are convinced. It is how he has to and wants to live his life at this time.
Would it not be best to just be a friend. This person eventually, if what you think is true, now having a friend to console with.

Why would you want to force him to do something he doesn’t want to do?

Engrave this on your heart for a lot less pain in your life: “I can’t change anyone else, and I can’t control the actions of anyone else.”

You cannot “make” your friend come out the closet. You really need to look at your own motives here. You have the right to have made the decisions for yourself and your life that you have made. Your friend has the right to do the same even if the decisions that he makes are not the same ones you would have made if you were him.

If you truly care for your friend, then don’t add to the stresses and burdens that he is experiencing. Simply be there for him as a friend, and enjoy your time together. Let him take the lead on the subject of his coming out if he chooses to bring it up. Otherwise, leave it alone.

Your only choice is to accept your friend as he is, not as you want him to be, or to walk away if his choice makes you too uncomfortable.

I’m not making a mistake, there are many, many signs… There’s no way I would make an assumption based on one thing. In fact, I rarely make assumptions at all, but I know that he is. I’ve spent a lot of time observing his actions. He’s got all the wrong ideas about it, though. In fact, after he met me, one of the first things he asked me was whether or not I thought that the reason ppl are gay is because of not finding the right girl, so maybe I need to stop insisting and start educating.

@owemehguh t a lot of time observing his actions. He’s got all the wrong ideas about it, though. In fact, after he met me, one of the first things he asked me was whether or not I thought that the reason ppl are gay is because of not finding the right girl,

Maybe it was just that he was wondering why you were gay.

You have two problems, one you do NOT know that he is gay, you are assuming, and two, even if he is, he decides when to vacate the closet – not you.

You can stop thinking that you are smarter than the person you “know and love.” Let them make up their own mind. How would you feel if this question was about you?

Do you also think you are “slightly better looking” than him ?
Are you trying to relive your life through him in trying to get him to do what you want him to do? What exactly is your motive here? If I was the other guy, you would not be my friend. You are trying to make him conform to your ideals.

I’m not trying to make him conform to anything, I am just trying to help him understand. Why are you attacking me? I’m just looking for advice, and no, I think he’s far more attractive than I am. Also, how many of you are actually gay? I hear a lot of crazy things from str8 people and it’s very frustrating to hear them talk as if they are experts on the subject. I’d like to think that, being gay for my whole life sorta gives me some insight on the subject.

I’m just going to assume that maybe he is gay… There are a lot of closeted people out there, and we gays have the best gaydar, so I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt here. :)

My advice: Show him by example that it’s OK to be gay. Stay his friend, and don’t be pushy about him admitting he’s gay or coming out of the closet if you do get him to admit that he’s gay. Explain through your words and actions what it is to be gay. (Aka, that it’s the same thing as being a hetero only you date people of the same gender – there is no “gay lifestyle.”) If he is gay, he needs serious knowledge about it, and may not be ready to come out of the closet until he knows that he can be himself no matter what – or after that. There is a lot of fear in closeted people, and they are to be helped but not forced to come out. Use his questions as a teaching opportunity.

I was in the same situation two years ago – a friend who I knew instinctively was a lesbian. I just knew it. I can’t even explain how I did. Anyway, my situation was compounded because I had a huge crush on her. I finally acted on it and we dated for 6 months, but for the entire time she refused to tell anyone about it because she wasn’t ready to come out of the closet. I decided that I couldn’t force her, but it made our relationship really strained (obviously). Just wanted to warn you against getting into anything like that with him… a relationship will not always make someone come out of the closet, and it will likely drive you insane. :)

@owemehguh I’m not trying to make him conform to anything, I am just trying to help him understand.

To understand? That statement is one of the most surreptitiously arrogant that I can recall.

I doubt that he needs manipulative friends like you. True friends support, they don’t try to change someone to meet a personal agenda.

@DarkScribe thank you for proving my point. you barely know me and you’re making judgements about me… that’s pretty uncool

@fireinthepriory, oops… all these fish look alike, sorry about that. I greatly appreciate your advice, and after what Marina said, I was sorta thinking along the same lines… and yeah, it’s like an instinct, I can’t explain it either. There’s no way I could be in a relationship if he doesn’t come out of the closet, tho, but I’m not going to push it anymore because I can tell it’s just pushing him away and that’s obviously not what I want, so thank you again!

You typed 300 words on the Internet. How would we know you?

@johnpowell again, thank you for proving my point? a lot of you come off as a little condescending and judgemental. I am very open-minded and there’s no need to treat me like that. Is it because I only have one star thingy? :p

@owemehguh you barely know me and you’re making judgements about me… that’s pretty uncool

My opinion is based on what you have said – nothing more. Manipulating someone is not the sort of thing that a true friend would consider. You have made your overtures and he has rejected them, you noted that it was hurtful – yet you persist. That is not friendship.

If a hetero guy had a female friend and keep pushing her about her sexuality that would be regarded as harassment or stalking. What makes you so different?

@DarkScribe I don’t think he’s trying to manipulate him, per se. Clearly being in the closet is detrimental to one’s mental health, and people who have come out are almost always happier once they have done so. The misconception is that forcing someone out will make them happier. The truth is that once a gay person realizes that they want to come out of the closet, they have accepted themselves for who they are and that is what makes them happier. Wanting someone to come out of the closet for their own good is legitimate – but it’s hard to understand that the choice has to be theirs, and if it’s not you’re taking away the benefits. I know a lot of people who were forced out, and they all regret that they never got to make the choice for themselves.

Wow guys, I agree parts of the description could have been better formulated, but let’s not get carried away here. The op came here for advice, not to be called an asshole. If you think he is a snob or something like that, why don’t you help him understand what you think he’s doing wrong instead of pushing him away. Is that supposed to be ironic?

To me it seems the 20 year old is reaching out the @owemehguh, maybe he knows he’s gay, maybe not. I agree that you should lead by example (as in: show there’s nothing wrong with it). You described how his family situation is kind of stressful and I don’t think coming out or you pushing him to is helping that. Perhaps you came out when you were 16, 18 or 20 years old, but he just might need a little bit more time. After he does figure it out, that is where your job begins, not before.

It’s not your job to out everyone, are you maybe self projecting a bit of your own experiences onto him? Was it hard for you coming out, and did you wish you had someone to help or a role model?

@johnpowell I’m not concerned with your opinion of me. I simply wanted advice from someone that knows what the hell they’re talking about, and I got it. It’s like the Jesse Jackson episode of South Park… you say you understand, but you really don’t.

I’m curious, what makes you so certain he’s gay?

You don’t want advice. You want validation.

@markyy I agree that it’s not helping the situation. I came out when I was 17 after going out with a girl for 9 months. It was very easy, my family was totally accepting, and I think maybe why I assume that it should be easy for him as well, and I would’ve loved a role model, but I figured things out on my own. I know he’s deathly afraid of the idea of being gay atm, I’m pretty sure that he thinks it would tear his family in half if he admits it. He denies it with a lot of passion and tries to rationalize it. There have also been sexual encounters and with a guy, it’s pretty easy to tell whether he’s interested or not. That’s just one of many things though. He loves to dance, the way he talks, when I’m around we spend almost every free moment together. I offered to give him a massage the day I met him and he agreed with no hesitation and when he tried to get up, he fell over onto the bed. I’ve caught him checking out guys. He has other gay behavior that he does randomly, and when we’re alone, it’s pretty amazing just being around him. It’s like we have some kind of understanding of each other that i have with no one else. I really feel like I connect with him.
I feel bad now for pushing him so hard, that was egocentric. I really realize that I was doing very much the wrong thing and maybe I was looking for some validation, but I was also looking for advice, and you’ve all helped me. I feel much better about the situation now, thank you.

And there have been lots of guys I’ve encountered before that I’ve had suspicions about, but didn’t say anything at all. This is the first guy I’ve encountered that I have feelings for that I’m actually sure is gay (which, I’m sure, is why I’ve been so pushy… damn), so don’t be thinking I go around doing this all the time. :p

Do you think he is attracted to you?

Since you have already tried to coax/probe/assist him to reveal what you feel is certain, it is apparent he just is unwilling to do so, This assumes you are correct, of course. I know you have said you are absolutely certain, so I can’t dispute your feelings. What I can suggest is that sometimes your best of intentions can exacerbate something even if you don’t mean that to be the result. So the very thing you are trying to achieve, may not transpire unless you change your strategy, which appears from your description not working. I would try giving the man some space, and eventually he might do so without any further action on your part. Since you have tried to assist, you have done your best from your point of view, so no need to feel badly there. At some point every person needs to complete a journey themselves.

@Zuma Yes, but he only shows it when he gets comfortable. As soon as I mention anything about being gay, he makes more of an effort to hide it, which again is another indication that I’ve been going about it wrong. It must make me seem threatening.

@dannyc agreed, thank you.

He is what he chooses to be, not what you think he is.

You don’t own his life and destiny. He has to control it. Right now, you’re as problematic to him a gay guy’s dad who’s forcing him to play football to “make a man out of him.” Only in reverse.

If he is, and he’s not ready to come out, it’s entirely possible that you could force a dire outcome-like suicide.

@PandoraBoxx If something like that happened, I don’t think I’d be able to handle the guilt.

Well, then, quit making him uncomfortable and see what happens.

Then LEAVE. IT. ALONE.

Sexual orientation runs a whole gamut of things. He doesn’t have to bat for your team to put out non-hetero vibes. But it doesn’t mean he’s gay. Likewise, I know men in their 50’s who are coming out, divorcing their wives, that you would never, ever, ever have thought they were gay.

People need to be left alone when it comes to self-identification of sexual orientation. You are what you say you are, until you say otherwise. People don’t need “help” with this.

@Zuma Yeah, that’s what I said I’m gonna do
@PandoraBoxx I’m aware of that, just like there are plenty of gay people that seem very str8. I know another guy that I had no idea was gay, and he came onto me… it was quite a surprise, so I know it runs both ways.

This situation is way more complex than I’d like it to be, but at least y’all are helping me make sense of it. I’m glad I found this site.

There have also been sexual encounters and with a guy, it’s pretty easy to tell whether he’s interested or not.

As in you and he have been sexual together?

@daloon yes

You really need to leave it alone, and let him sort himself out. There is a big difference in self-definition between the age of 20 and 27. He needs to come to it on his own terms, in his own time.

Suppose you are correct. What do you expect as the outcome of being correct? What purpose does being correct serve? What benefits are derived from outing someone who isn’t ready to come out?

@PandoraBoxx GA, a lot of people seem to forget that sexual preference runs through the entire spectrum. No one (with a few exceptions) is totally gay or straight. You can be a little bit gay, but never act on the feelings, never ‘do anything’ with anyone except women, and no one is the wiser. Sexuality, like most other things we humans experience, and are passionate about, is hardly black and white. Those who assume sexuality is either/or are sadly misinformed.—

This basically read as if you have a best friend who’s comfortable around you and has effeminate qualities. For now, that’s all you get and it isn’t your place to push him or bring it up. You living your life is enough to inspire him to change his own whether it’s sexuality or his character. Leave it.

@owemehguh If you come to an open forum to ask advice, you shouldn’t become pissy when you get answers you don’t like – you asked for them.

You think he’s gay, he says he’s not. Ultimately, it’s his life, his business, and pushing him is likely to create strife and stress for him. Be a supportive friend, be there for him, and let him proceed (or not) at his own pace. Anything beyond that (IMHO) is jerkish.

@syz Yeah, I rarely go to forums at all so it’s kinda new to me. I will be less defensive in the future, I assure you.

This is a difficult situation and I have been through it many times. It almost like psychic knowledge—you just know. And you might be right, but it does not mean that this person will ever consciously admit to it. And if it is not in their conscious it does not exist to them, and therefore they are not gay.

It seems like you care about this person’s well-being (at least I will give you the benefit of the doubt) and wanting to help him ease the burden of hiding and denying his sexuality is noble. But try not to let it become about you. The best way to help another person is not to push, but to support.

May I suggest being as open about who you are as a way to show him how life could be for him. Being happy and healthy can show him that being open and out is not only about prejudice and discrimination.

And consider the idea that maybe he is not attracted to men in a sexual way. Some people display all the cues, but it just isn’t the case.

Welcome to fluther!

@tinyfaery Thank you for the welcome, and I definitely have a good grasp on things now. It’s amazing how many different perspectives there are. I really love this site. :)

People often act differently from the way they say they act. Your friend could definitely be into you, but not consider himself gay. He may not even have sex with women, but consider himself straight. I, for example, will never tell you anything good about me. You could try to force me to “be honest” and admit to some talent or another, but the truth is that you have no idea how I think about myself, inside, and whether what I say is a decent reflection of what I think.

I think you should continue to relate to your friend as you have been relating to him. You don’t need to call him names, nor do you need to label your relationship. And why do you fucking care, anyway? People lie all the time, or they are mistaken, or they have hidden agendas.

If he’s having sex with you, and going out with you, and in all other way behaving as your boyfriend, then what’s it to you what he calls himself? Why do you feel an urge to out him? That’s a kind of controlling thing, and does not bode well for a relationship.

With gay folk, there is a discussion about being closeted, and it’s a political discussion. OUT magazine used to run around outing famous homosexuals. They thought it would help the progress of gay rights. The people who were outed might not have seen it that way.

In a way, the whole thing is about autonomy. Do we have a right to run our own lives? If so, then we should be allowed to be gay or straight with no prejudice against us. Otherwise, if you’re coercing someone to come out, then it seems to me that you are no better than the society that makes it hard for people to come out.

I belive you might be mistaken and actually might be confusing this person.. you should just leave him alone, because if he is really gay, he probably knows it and will come out of the closet on his own, you should never force him into it.

This is really about you not him. You want him “out of the closet” based on your history not his, If you really are his friend then just be his friend and MYOB.

your friend doesn’t have to be the way you are – even if he sleeps with the exactly same people as you, he may identify differently…you have to find strength in yourself to allow him to do that…and please stop spelling straight str8

I lurved that for the last bit. Amen.