Why are people offended at the idea of proselytization?

I think what bothers most people is the fact that these people think they know more about the ourselves than we do. For someone to come up and say that we are wrong, and they know more about how to save us that we can know, its just makes you annoyed..

But they aren’t claiming to know about you on a personal level. They are claiming that they have knowledge about the ultimate reality of the universe. Which is a claim most all of us make (even if we claim that no one is qualified to make a claim we are making a claim).

I don’t need a middle man (preacher, priest, rabbi, whatever) telling me what is right or wrong, I can pretty much figure it out for myself!

do they really think that there are people out there that have not heard of their religion and the consequences. i think not.

just think on what they are actually saying. “i know the creator of the universe, and he wants you to do this, but not that” and thats where i leave this answer for the sake of not offending others.

suffice it to say, they do not get a positive response from me. specially as i have been an atheist since the age of about 6. well, all my life really, but i did not know the word atheist until then. i have heard it all before. where is the evidence?

Most people don’t want to be converted.
It’s also very presumptive to assume that others’ beliefs are invalid.

I understand why you wouldn’t be persuaded, or why you wouldn’t actually listen to them. But I don’t see why you would be hostile to them considering they think they are doing the equivalent of pushing you out of the way of an oncoming train.

It has to do with the assumption that they are right and you are too stupid to know it. And it isn’t only about religion, it’s just that religious proselytizers are more relentless and aggressive, But there are also vegetarians, runners, fashionistas and NRA members who will tell you why they are right and you are wrong but will go away if you tell them you aren’t interested.

I’m never offended by the door-to-door types. I view it as them doing their ‘job’. I just firmly and politely send them on their way, usually with wishes of “good luck” on their mission. Now, if it’s a person who knows me, and tries repeatedly to convince me, I’m gonna’ have a problem with that.

funny story, I was at the Kentucky Derby this past year and got very drunk. After the races there were people outside damning us to hell for drinking and gambling (ad for girls showing their boobs i would assume). Me and another drunk friend of mine decided to stand with them and damn everyone passing. It was actually pretty fun, but I don’t think they appreciated our drunken humor.

hmm yea, they are not doing a good thing at all. they are just looking for more members so they can have more power and influence over the government. im quite sure the vast majority of them know exactly what their motivation is. and it has more to do with my pocket and my vote than my eternal soul.

and i really dont want to get offensive here or anything, but for the sake of explaining. i will say that their claims are so bizare and unsubtantiated, that i honestly think the only reason they are not all locked up in mental institutions on heavy medication is simply their numbers. and when they come over to try and mess with my head with such nonsense i find it deeply insulting to my intelligence and on other levels, insulting to my morality and ethics.

@poisonedantidote
You really think that people want you to join a religion because it will personally make them more money?

I think they genuinely think it will save my soul. Plus, it’s not like every christian gets a cut of the money every time someone converts.

@jackm

well, just to clarify, i am not talking about any particular religion here.

and do i honestly think the ones that are out walking the streets looking for people are after my cash? no. but the people that sent them out with panflets do.

religion is a topic i have studies for many years now, i even used to have formal debates on it, both in real life and online. and all my past experiences lead me to believe that its all for the purpose of making money. at least the vast majority of it.

if this where not true, there would be no collection plates, no donations, no charities and nothing to do with politics.

i have no problem with people believing what they want. but if they come up to me in the street trying to talk me in to their religion, i will follow them and hound them with questions until they manage to give me the slip.

EDIT:
“it’s not like every christian gets a cut of the money every time someone converts.”

of course, they are too low down on the pyramid. but notice the vatican and buddhist temples and other places of worship dont seem to have a cash shortage.

@poisonedantidote
I don’t think that religions exists to control people, or to make people money. I do not think there is some evil person sitting at the helm of every religion who is just chomping at the bit to take advantage of dumb people.

I think that a select few people do use religion to their advantage, but for the most part, its just fools fooling fools.

@jackm

well, i cant agree with that. i can go in to more detail here obviously, but i was really not in the mood for a proper debate. but there are many names i could mention of people who are on the take.

and no, i dont think there is any big mastermind behind every religion. but i do think there is about 100 to 1000 little masterminds, and they all get a cut.

@poisonedantidote
Is the pope one of these masterminds?

@jaketheripper I never thought about it that way. When I first became an atheist, I felt righteously indignant about people doing this, and over time it faded to mild irritation. But this makes me actually kind of appreciate their efforts. @The_Compassionate_Heretic is also right that it’s presumptuous, though. So… nice, but presumptuous. These people remind me of a pushy old relative who asks why you don’t have a husband yet because the baby factory won’t stay open forever. They want the best for you, but damn it’s annoying!

im pretty sure Jesus proselytized and converted people; at the very least the Apostles did, following Jesus’ example.

@eponymoushipster if someone as sexy as Jesus tried to convert me, maybe I would turn Christian after all.

@jackm i would have to say yes, i dont think money is his exact goal. but im quite confident he wants less black people. why else would he be telling uneducated people in africa to not use condoms.

we have solid scientific evidence that condoms prevent aids. we have solid scientific evidence that there is a severe case of aids in africa. and it is obvious that most people in africa are black. what possible reason could he have for telling people there not to use condoms. him and many others that are up to this.

but yea, dont think im claiming to know the mind of every pope who has ever lived or every religious person. this is mostly my opinion more than anything else. and im willing to admit that all i have to back up this particualr opinion is assumption. but my hunches are not normally wrong.

personally, it all just seems a bit too transparent. why would people need to take bibles and religion to africa just to do charity work? it is obvious that they are taking advantage of an already supersitious and uneducated country to spread their numbers. there is no other possible conclusion i can draw from such action.

but yea, i suggest we should leave this now. as i have already poisoned my own wells here by not being clear and formal from the beginning. either that or we set up a question for a discussion with clear points on what we are going to debate and to what ends.

EDIT:

its so easy to go off topic on this subject.

my apoologies to anyone who i may have offended with my answers here.

i am an atheist, but that just applies to me.

i am also an anti-theist, but this does not mean i am against the person.

and honestly, i would be much happyer if we could all just get along. i also realize and accept that the arguments i have put forwards here are not some of my most rational ones. i have been awake all night programing stuff, and am a bit drained.

EDIT:

if you check over my first answer to a religious question, you will see that i never really wanted to debate religion here on this site. i just get tempted a little too much at times, and i could not resist this question.

and as im fully aware that im capable of saying much more offensive things than i have said here. i will try to refrain from talking about this kind of thing in the future. unless asked personally.

@poisonedantidote – I completely agree.

The Holy See is one of the most screwed up, corrupt, money-hungry, and controlling organizations in the world. Catholics tithe and in many churches you are obligated to do so. How much you spend – and whether or not it’s voluntary – changes from church to church. The recommended amount is 10% of your income.

@DrasticDreamer

thanks for the support.

however, please note that i now wish to retract my previous statements until i have a chance to substantiate them and support them with more than just my own personal opinion. while i feel i could do so at the moment, i chose to not do so until i am forced in to a debate.

when i first found this site i promised my self i would not talk about religion, as it tends to become all that is talked about eventually. so from now on, if anyone wants to talk about religion with me, i will be doing so only in private and to answer to challanges to debate.

EDIT:

a quick look on my youtube channel and other site accounts will soon show that this is something i spend a lot of time discussing, and i would like to see fluther as a way of taking a brake from all that.

@poisonedantidote One thing I really like about atheists is that they don’t approach people in the street and try to convince them to not believe in God. In fact most of their discussion of atheism is in their own periodicals or radio programs that have to be searched for. I appreciate that restraint.

A church is still a business. Of course they want your money, why wouldn’t they? If I had to run a church I would want your money every Sunday for providing you a safe, clean place to worship with coffee and donuts. Also, I need a salary if I’m going to spend my time visiting all your families and members in hospitals and to pay the electric bill and to fix the pews when little Timmy breaks the bible pocket. Oh and I’ll need to clean the church after you dirty people come in here and drop your prayers all over the place without even wiping your feet at the front door. I’ll care about you and share gods word with you because that’s what I want to do. But yeah, I’m gonna need some help paying these bills and cleaning things up around here.

@galileogirl

well, there are the ones that make billboards and picket x-mas trees. so just as one final clarification here. i am just as much against atheists that form organizations as i am against religious organizations.

Sidenote: I’m happy to pray in my home. I don’t need a church or pastor or Father to tell me what’s right and wrong. My parents did thier job just fine.

I’ve never seen any billboards that I recognized as atheist. But they couldn’t be as offensive as these:

http://razorapple.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/houston_billboard_calvin_klein.jpg

http://lvb.net/media/1/20060328-bb-wind.jpg

http://wonkroom.thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/billboard-okwedy.gif

http://www.claytoncramer.com/pictures/Kerry-Poodle.JPG

@galileogirl – I can’t believe that Calvin Klein one. I don’t think I am being prudish when I say that simply oversteps the bounds of good taste or propriety.

The others are equally as bad in different ways.

Because it’s self serving.

@galileogirl I enjoyed all of those billboards, and I am grateful that you don’t determine what protected speech is in America.

I am in charge of how I spend the time I have on theis Earth, and I choose not to waste it listening to misguided, brainwashed individuals.

I like the Calvin Klein ad.

It may be my not having American blood, but… hey why would that be offensive. It may not be your taste. It may even be bad taste.

Even then… since when should one take offense to bad taste?

@whitenoise – well that intrigues me, what should you take offense at?

Perhaps they don’t heed the biblical injunction to suffer fools gladly.

@rooeytoo
Well, I would take offense at people that hurt others or myself. Or I would take offense to people being ignorant and proud of it.

The thing is… people choose to take offense at/to things and people. One is free to do so. That is cool.

I am reluctant, however, as soon as people say that something should be taken offense at/to. There is some stuff going on out there, in the real world, that is really seriously sh!tty. People die of famine in countries where the wealthy have money than they can spend in ten lifetimes. That is offensive to me.

There is too few people offended by that serious stuff and too many by the silly breaches of morals like those in that CK ad.

I don’t believe in proselytization. If people want to join a religious group, it should be their choice. Instead of proselytization, religious leaders should lead by example. They have to walk the talk. Well this applies to all organizations trying to spread their world view.

Discussing this topic, you need to have seen this short clip.

It discusses why the Church of England wouldn’t be as good as the Spaniards were at their inquisition.

(This is one of my favorite clips on youtube)

In response to a few comments, Of course atheists don’t proselytize. You cant’s say that like it’s some reasoned act of self control. They don’t really have any reason to do so. There is almost nothing to be gained from it. But other religious groups are trying to spare people from terrible judgments and I don’t think the two are comparable.
And in response to hatred towards Christianity, yes there are terrible things that go on in Churches and terrible things have been done in God’s name but just because a Christian did something awful doesn’t mean that it’s the accepted stance of Christianity. Hitler was an atheist but that sheds no light on the beliefs other atheists have or the kinds of people they are. and to say so would be absurd.
Some leaders are interested in money and power but there are thousands of quieter, active Christians who follow their beliefs to difficult and dangerous positions. I don’t see anything financially to be gained by joining a group like this

@jaketheripper

I disagree… I am an atheist and I feel that I would have a lot to gain from a world with less religion.

I feel that religion is an obstacle to the proper and ethical development of our race (i.e. the human race).

Very often, I feel very threatened by various religions. Through the eyes of many religious people, I am looked upon with disdain, quite often deemed to be as low as vermin.

In the Middle East, for instance, Muslims tend to rank people as follows:
Muslim-> Christian -> Jewish -> dogs -> atheist.

Quite often I have been told: “I cannot trust you, since you do not believe in Gos, so why would you do good?”

I feel however that becoming an evangelical atheist trying to proselytize is likely to be of little effect. Trying to change someones religionous beiefs against their will is deemed to end in misery.

@jaketheripper – My perception is somewhat different. Some atheists do proselytize and they do it in a very subtle manner. The strategy goes like this: only morons believe in supernatural nonsense. Only morons can accept outdated books in which god tells the chosen people to commit genocide. Only morons practice silly rituals. Come on, I think you’re smarter than that. It would be a shame. I wanna help you. It’s really in your best interest. Join the smart people. Scientists are smart and most of them are atheists. There is no scientific evidence for deities.

I have never been hostile to people preaching unless they were hostile to me – here in NYC, many subways are basically overtaken by the religious zealots…they put damning to hell signs on the wall…in one place, for some time, there was this huge poster with a line down the middle…one side was hell with a devil picture, the other side was heaven with an angel picture…I mean, it was totally ridiculous…so a bunch of us, often, would take completely ridiculous pictures by that picture to show our dismay at the fact that these people think they can take over a public area with their beliefs that not everyone believes…and truly if you come at me with your pamphlets and your screaming crap into my ear at 7 am when I’m on my way to work, I will curse you out, because how dare you stand in my way and try to not let me pass…

I’m not offended unless they just refuse to get out of my face about it. Pray for me all you want but don’t interfere with my ability to do what I want, when and where I want.

I was reared to believe that it’s okay to believe whatever you want, just don’t feel it’s your mission to try to talk me into sharing your belief.

@galileogirl I kind of liked the Calvin Klein ad, but it definitely belongs in a magazine and not on a billboard. The Leviticus one offended me, but “Liberals hate it!” was pretty funny.

I actually have seen atheist ads. Around Christmas last year, the American Humanist Organization posted ads in DC buses in metros saying “Why believe in a god? Just be good for goodness sake”. I wish they would show up in other cities. They were great! I like the very thin black Santa, but he kind of perplexes me at the same time.

metro ad
bus ad

I think there is a difference between someone wanting you to join their group for the benefit of the group and for the fun of it vs. someone wanting you to join their group because if you don’t you are a heathen. In both instances it would benefit both you and the group to join (according to those proselytizating). But in the first instance people typically don’t get upset. If I ask someone to join my book club, for example, they aren’t going to slam their door in my face, maybe think i’m a bit kooky or self-righteous but nevertheless not horribly angry. Now if I ask someone to join my book club and tell them that all who don’t are ignorant imbeciles (or some other such nonsense) then I’m sure I will get the door slammed in my face and they will be quite angry.

The problem with proselytization is that there is a judgment being made against you if you do not accept the offer to join the group.

@pdworkin Just because I find something offensive certainly doesn’t mean I would try to ban it. I teach the Constitution and advocate for a very liberal interpretation of the 1st amendment. As a citizen, I can refuse to buy products from a company whose advertising is offensive to me. I can use my freedom of speech to say why the giant billboard in Times Square is offensive, but legally ban it?-never!

@Haleth It may because my city limits visual pollution or it may be that I am just paying attention to other things or maybe SF is so diverse that atheists don’t need to advertise there point of view, I haven’t seen those posters. It’s kind of unsettling that they identify humanism as atheism which is not true. Not all humanists are athiests

@galileogirl DC was the only city where they ran them, as far as I know. They were all over the place, impossible to miss if you use public transit in the city. Now that I think about it, I was the one who said they were atheist ads, not the organization that ran them. The ads only said, “Why believe in a god?” which could be a humanist message. I’m an atheist, so I guess I was just being self-absorbed.

If I say I’m not interested, will they go away? Will they take “no” for an answer? If not, then I feel justified in getting angry.

@daloon No need for anger, show them your best side-that ought to do it.<;P.

Or do what my mom did – enlist their aid to help you out of a difficult and messy situation, such as when her truck got stuck in the muddy ditch that crossed our driveway. The young men in short-sleeved white shirts and dark ties did indeed help her but I think they warned everyone else not to bother trying to convert anyone at that address.

Oh @galileogirl You are full of helpful suggestions. I don’t know why I didn’t think of that.

Or maybe I did. Sometimes I start trying to convince them to be atheists, and they go away fast. Or, if I really don’t want to be bothered, I just say, “I’m an atheist” in a very firm tone. They seem to respect that and move on.

@daloon – Sometimes it is even better to say “I’m a Unitarian.” Then they decide you are in league with Satan and leave so fast that it is as if they were never there. I know this because my mother is a Unitarian.

Nobody really likes to be told they’re wrong.

I keep thinking about this question
as I get bothered by them on the subway
it’s because of how arrogant they are to assume that they need to stand and scream at the top of their lungs on the subway..as if they think this is just so much more important than to yell something actually relevant..i wish, i goddamn wish people would stand in the subway and yell that loudly about homelesness in nyc or racism or sexism