General Question

vanguardian's avatar

Can someone please explain to me why Che Guevara is so highly regarded?

Asked by vanguardian (845points) February 6th, 2008 from iPhone
Observing members: 0 Composing members: 0

24 Answers

GD_Kimble's avatar

I think he resonates with so many young people today because he’s viewed (rightly or wrongly) as a symbol of what socialism was SUPPOSED to be as opposed to the “corrupt” oppressive version that we got with, say, the Soviet Union which turned out to be a worse clusterf(udge) than the runaway capitalism that it was designed to be the remedy for. Che is romanticized (see: The Motorcycle Dairies film) as a noble idealist whose assassination made him a martyr and is seen as the last gasp of pure, benevolent socialist ideals.
He’s often held up as a counter-point to the oppression and brutality of Castro, but what’s equally as often ignored is the fact that Che, for all of his idealism, got his hands pretty dirty as well—as communism violently swept through Central America. Make no mistake, the man killed a LOT of people.
The short answer is, the people that are big fans of Che and wear his face on t-shirts and buy his bumper stickers (which are both delicious irony) use him as a rallying cry against what they perceive as our society being a capitalist/puritanical hegemony run amok in the world.

paulc's avatar

Maybe this question won’t have as much unfounded reactionary crap flung about it as the other one kevbo linked to.

vanguardian's avatar

I don’t understand it. The appeal I mean. I see white suburban rich kids walking around with his portrait shirt. You think they know squat about him? I dont think so. He is a murderer, plain & simple. What makes him so different from anyone else that murders an behalf of their beliefs? Nothing.

So I think I might have answered my own question. Glorifying a murdered, hating america, degrading music, disrespect, no moral value…seems to be the “in” thing today. Its the norm. I know there’s exceptions & by no means is this a blanket statement. I just find the whole thing troubling.

Mangus's avatar

I can’t see how it is reasonable to say “He is a murderer, plain and simple” and disregard any other relevant information about the man’s life. If that’s the test, seems like you have to through out most of this country’s “war heros” too. Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy to criticize the man and the sorts of tactics he came to engage in. I’m not a supporter of authoritarian violence. But none of that answers the question “why is he so popular”. All those silly commodity shirts and hats and shopping bags are not around because it’s cool he murdered people. It’s not a Charles Manson thing.

He’s popular because of the dreams he stood for and the energy he put into making the world a better place. The man grew up with access to much privilege, and came to see the wild disparities between the haves and have-nots throughout Latin America. And he tried to do something about it. He basically said “the world doesn’t have to be as bad as it is, and regular people can get together to do something about it”. In (today’s) world of cynicism, social darwinism, and capitalist end-of-history rhetoric, the idea of Che is the idea of someone who was willing to open his heart to making the world a better place and risk everything to do it.

Spargett's avatar

Simply put, he’s an underdog.

And the fact that his face looks great stenciled. A true testament to historical symbolism.

hossman's avatar

I have to agree with vanguardian that a significant number of the young people wearing Guevara’s face have no idea about either the good or bad he committed. As an example, I took part in this conversation about a month ago:

Me, observing student wearing Che shirt: “So, how’s your speech on Che going?”
Student: “Huh?”
Me: “Your informative speech on Che Guevara, where are you with that?”
Student: “I can’t find anything.”
Me: “You can’t find anything in the library or online about Che Guevara?”
Student: “No. You gotta give me somebody easier.”
Me: “I gave you Che because you were wearing that same shirt last week, I thought you’d be interested in him.”
Student: “This shirt?”
Me (beginning to be frustrated): “Yes, that shirt. The one with Che Guevara’s face on it. The one you’re wearing.”
Student: “That’s the guy?”
Me: “Yes. That is Che. The face on the shirt you wear twice a week.”
Student: “Oh.”
Me: “Why do you wear that shirt?”
Student: “Everybody says it’s a cool shirt.”
Me: “Why?”
Student: “I dunno.”
Me: “Had you ever heard of Che Guevara before I assigned him to you?”
Student: “No.”
Me: “You told me before your parents were from Cuba, right?”
Student: “Yeah, so?”
Me: “Maybe you could start by asking your parents about Che Guevara.”

NEXT DAY
Student: “I asked my mom about that guy, she got really mad at me. She said some stuff in Spanish I didn’t understand. You gotta gimme somebody easier. Can I do that Michael Luther King?”

Discourse on the level of “unfounded reactionary crap.” Unfounded? Che DIDN’T personally sentence and execute his adversaries? Even Castro referred to Che as “excessively aggressive.” I think that may have been part of why Che secretly left Cuba. They didn’t call Che “The Pig” for nothing. And those were his friends.

bob's avatar

Che’s popular because ignorant people think he was a noble martyr who fought for the poor and the oppressed. He’s a vague symbol of rebellion and anti-capitalism, both of which are cool in certain circles. Plus he was a smart guy and a wealthy guy who wanted to help people. That resonates with the image many Americans have of themselves—especially college students.

Maybe rebellion is cool, and maybe capitalism sucks, but: Che wasn’t opposed to Castro—Che helped Castro come into power. Che and people like Che made sure that the strains of socialism in South and Central America were authoritarian rather than democratic. And in the process Che tortured and executed political prisoners.

Unfounded reactionary crap! :)

Anyway, it’s fun to see people wearing those t-shirts. @hossman: hilarious.

Mangus's avatar

Even from where I’m standing, far on the left end of the spectrum, I’m more than willing to recognize the wrong that Che did. But I still think there’s an explanation below the level of experience hossman is describing. I’ve had similar conversations. Clearly that image is largely divorced from history from many young folks who are wearing it. But there’s a reason that photo became wide-spread in the first place.

I’ve been trying to find a way to parse this issue given the standard arguments. Proponents want to talk about his revolutionary ardor and the good he intended and the vision of socialism he promoted and the good he did do. Critics refuse to talk about much more than his turn to authoritarian violence and associating him with Castro, a convenient straw man.

I think the direction I’m leaning is this: in the split in world views between free market capitalism and revolutionary socialism there are commonalities. People care about the common good, but disagree on the appropriate way to achieve it. It seems Che is dismissed because his taking of human life was at the service of a directly applied attempt to remake society with wealth and property distributed evenly, access to universal healthcare etc. He wanted to just take the pieces of society and move them around to fit a vision of justice. That directness is somehow at the root of objection.

On the other hand, most vigorous critics (not putting words in the mouths of this forum’s participants, necessarily) are willing to allow for murder and savagery if it is the service of a worldview that says “you can’t just make justice happen, you have to create markets and ‘democracy’ and then it can happen and if it doesn’t then it is human failing, not the failing of the system.”

I never hear denouncement of US counterinsurgency and torture, US support for dictatorial regimes in South America and Asia, Christopher Columbus as a rapist and murderer, or the thousands of atrocities experienced by Iraqi civilians during this war (to choose but a few examples) by the same folks who denounce people like Che Guevara.

Its the only way I can find to reconcile the perspectives. I know it’s a different topic, but I think the sort of critique of Che that is being leveled in this forum would be a lot more legitimate if those folks were also promoting Indigenous Peoples’ day as an alternative to Columbus Day (for instance). But I don’t see the same folks at rallies for both causes.

vanguardian's avatar

@mangus – I respect your point, but I am not feeling your Columbus relation. It was over 500 years ago.
On a current note, the Che commons would include…
Castro, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Lenin…all believed in some ways similiar views…

I know some are extreme examples…but I don’t know of any other that its considered “cool” to glorify them with the associated merchandise being sold, worn & displayed. Plus, most don’t even know why they support Che, as Hossman gave an example of a response you’d probably hear 80% of the time. It is also noted by Hossman, correctly so, where Castro even thought he was too extreme. Doesn’t that say something? Anti-Capitalism is a persons right, but through murder, it should not be condoned. Again he wasn’t the first and won’t be the last revolutionary, but we see what that form of Socialism has brought to other countries.

Mangus's avatar

Yeah, but we have a national holiday for the man. And our kids spend time in school learning an (extremely sanitized) history focused on him. No Che day. No Che lessons in kindergarten.

And I have to ask for a different parsing of that list of names. Castro, Stalin, Mao and Lenin. Hitler and Mussolini has completely different worldviews. I assume the category is “evil”, not left/right. But evil just isn’t that useful. Again, where is the discussion of Native genocide in North America? The engineers of slavery? Neither of those are ancient history either—those histories affect the lives of millions today. (In)convenient we don’t have names handy to pin those atrocities on.

Mangus's avatar

@spargett: Somehow missed that line the first time.

And the fact that his face looks great stenciled. A true testament to historical symbolism.

Hilarious! :)

vanguardian's avatar

@mangus I added to my answer, can’t type that fast on an iPhone.

hossman's avatar

Actually, and I admit this is my sense based upon the historical accounts of others, I find Che far more objectionable than Castro, as Che went far beyond “liberation” to the deliberate destruction of fellow revolutionaries who in any way competed with, not even opposed, his cult of personality. Che appears to have used revolutionary dogma as the excuse for his own quest for egoist power, whereas other revolutionaries genuinely seemed to attempt to create beneficial change, any benefits from Che’s activities seem to have been incidental, almost unintended consequences.

It seems rather likely Castro himself forced Che out of Cuba, probably because Castro was a pragmatist and recognized the destructive force of Che could not be contained. Che then attempted and failed miserably to export revolution elsewhere. In fact, his attempt to overthrow the Bolivian government evidently did not receive the support of any Bolivian citizens whatsoever, in fact, Bolivian peasants aided in his capture and death. Che was opposed by many who had the same apparent political goals, simply because Che didn’t know where to draw the line. I have no general problems with the concept of revolution, but the proposed cure must be better than the prior ailment. There is a line between revolution and terrorism, and Che was far over that line. Perhaps the best way to know Che’s mind is to examine his own words: ”“Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine. This is what our soldiers must become …”

Perhaps the best explanations for his continued popularity are: 1) he died young, and like JFK, perhaps the best thing that can happen to the legacy of some dynamic young leaders is they die before everyone gets a chance to get tired of them; and 2) Che seems to have occupied a Messianic place for Latin Americans who reject Catholicism but still feel a cultural need for a Messiah figure.

His friends called him “The Pig” and “The Butcher.” His nickname “Che” itself comes from his notorious bullying habit of interrupting others with the word “Che.” There are revolutionaries who can be admired. Sometimes, armed struggle is necessary. But Che STARTED concentration camps in Cuba. Che personally executed and imprisoned homosexuals, not for their political beliefs, or opposition, but simply because they were gay. Che seems to have been far more about the violence and not tremendously concerned with creating a viable alternative.

And since I’m denouncing Che, to answer Mangus, I’ll go ahead and denounce Columbus (although I’m not sure whether “rapist” is hyperbole or an actual event), the genocide of Native Americans, and U.S. backed or caused deaths throughout history, although I would suggest you be careful about throwing around the word “atrocity,” as it seems to now be used for unintentional collateral damage from combat, which dilutes the value of the word, which should be reserved for intentional acts against noncombatants.

At the same time, it is so convenient to only point the figure at those evil white American capitalists. Native Americans were committing atrocities against each other well before the white man got here. White men found all too many Africans willing to sell each other into slavery. There are plenty of indigenous peoples committing atrocities against each other and the nonindigenous peoples. It is practically impossible to draw a line in history and say, OK, now we start keeping a record of naughty and nice.

And if you are going to accept the premise of armed revolution, then you have to accept the premise of a sovereign nation’s right to protect itself and its citizens from armed revolution and terrorism. I also recognize that we never have the advantage of all the information. We cannot know what may have been prevented by what act. I am glad I am not the one who has to choose the least of multiple evils, or has to follow orders because that is my duty. What we point at and call atrocity may have spared the lives of thousands. Certainly our acts in Iraq do not yet compare to the atrocities of Hussein. Whether our ongoing acts have prevented the deaths of innocent lives we may never know.

Columbus Day? Certainly the man did what any explorer of his time would do, take advantage of the lands he discovered. But I still can give him credit for the significance and difficulty of what he achieved. Let’s not make the mistake of thinking the Aztecs and Inca were benevolent democracies. If Native Americans hadn’t been wiped out by illnesses brought by the white man, they might have taken European slaves and kept control. None are innocent. Markets are not perfect, they aren’t even always reasonable, but they seem to me to be a system that best incorporates what humans are, rather than trying to impose upon society some misguided concept of what humans might be, while still providing the opportunity for humans to be better than what they were.

Spargett's avatar

@hossman

“Michael Luther King”, hahah.

hossman's avatar

My student assigned to speak on Dr. King did so today, and lo and behold, Dr. King’s name was originally “Michael Luther King.” I doubt the other student knew that, but what a coincidence.

I learn something new every school day.

gaowei's avatar

I don’t like this guy!

scula's avatar

Images of romance

bea2345's avatar

Oh yes, we in the West Indies admired Che and Castro too, long after their frailities became apparent. And you know why? In spite of everything, Castroism survived, just 90 miles from Florida. They must have been doing something right.

bob's avatar

@bea2345: That’s incredibly stupid and also insane. :)

bea2345's avatar

@bob My parents’ generation had a ringside view of Fulgencio Batista’s excesses in Cuba. That kind of colours your opinion. The Cubans were well rid of him and we in the West Indies are by no means persuaded that Castro’s rule was worse.

bob's avatar

I apologize—I was being rude. I think you’re wrong. But I’m sorry for being flip about it. Good day.

bea2345's avatar

No biggie, @bob But try to understand how bad those dictators were. Stroessner (Paraguay); Trujillo (Dominican Republic); El Salvador (a string of them); Nicaragua (the Somozas) were only some of them. Castro did introduce major reforms in land use, health and education and up to now, Cuba’s social indicators are still good (low child and maternal mortality, high literacy, very little street crime, etc.) Cuba’s human rights record is bad. Agreed. But why does it bother the Americans so much? It didn’t bother them in other places (Paraguay, Nicaragua and El Salvador come to mind) where the social indicators were dismal.

bob's avatar

You’re right—Castro is/was better than the really bad people. And I’ll admit that the scare of a Soviet foothold so close to the US probably did more to push US sentiment against Castro than any particular bad act. I’m not opposed to seeing the good as well as the bad in Castro’s reign, or in Che’s actions—but I’ll still happily mock US college students wearing Che shirts.

I’m so easily convinced. :)

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