How do you feel about the treatment of Muslims after 9-11?

Does anyone else feel like we’re moving out of black-white racism and toward a new major discrimination?
No. I think our racism has always been inclusive of Muslims and people of Semitic heritage. I think 9/11 has just heaped paranoia on top of it.

im quite frustrated that there is nothing at ground zero yet. as for the muslims, i have debated enough of them to know a lot of them are glad about what happened on 9/11, i have also debated enough of them to know that a lot of them where appalled. give it time and suspicions will fade i believe.

In the link provided in the other thread regarding Ft. Hood, the shooter was quoted as saying a lot of stuff that would make me suspicious of him regardless of his cultural background.

I am a 65 year old short graying white woman, if I started a new cult of similar beings and we went out and killed a couple of thousand people one day and bragged that they deserved it, and then went on to take credit for other assorted bombings, explosions, etc, would it not make you look sideways when a little old lady is at a crime scene?

It is the reality of life.

@poisonedantidote I don’t think you debated real Muslims if they were glad about the loss of over 2000 innocent lives, perhaps they were just of middle eastern decent and pretended to be Muslim.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the states, and I think because of this and 9/11 putting them under the microscope, you see some back lash against Muslims. There are a lot of misconceptions about Muslims and what not. I guess it is a little frustrating to see people perpetuate these misconceptions when something like that happens.

Well I’ve always had problems with airport and border screening because of the way I look, but now it’s gotten ridiculous. “Oh no, you can’t take that shampoo on the plane, it might explode!”. Or “Hey! That guy’s got a shaving razor! Arrest him before he shaves someone!”.

I think it’s the air travel that gets to me the most because of the paranoia (even here in Greece, which has always had good relationships with the Arabs and never been a target).

But yes, I also know what you mean about the overall discrimination, it’s just that this has been going on longer so I’ve sort of gotten used to it by now.

If your family subscribes to anti-Semitic periodicals, they are supporting racism and ignorance.
i’ve been fed up with that before you were born. If you want to do something about it, start at home.

@rooeytoo : I think the problem with your analogy is that it’s really selective. When Christians blow up buildings, shoot doctors and brag that they deserved it —and do any number of the same things that people want to blame Muslims for— you don’t have people looking at Christians a little funny when one shows up at a crime scene. Most people know that’s only a crazy fringe few Christians, but a lot of those same folks want to paint all Muslims with the same brush. That’s the problem.

@cyndyh – I guess it is because they are the ones who makes the evening news night after night. Practically every day here there is some muslim cleric ranting anti-australian or american rhetoric and plotting someone’s destruction.

And the part that I find frustrating is that these guys who are supposed to be the exceptions are rarely criticized or chastised by so called legitimate muslims. If they are truly the minority, why is the majority not speaking out against them?

Of course not all are jihadists, I would wager very few people believe that, but until the moderates stand up and speak out, they put themselves in a position of doubtful loyalty to the country they are living in.

@rooeytoo : If that’s what you keep seeing in the media that’s part of the problem -what the media chooses to focus on and ignore. Do they show ranting Christians plotting someone’s destruction? Do you even hear the term “Christian Extremists”? They certainly exist. Do they show peaceful Muslim gatherings the way peaceful vigils or celebrations are shown of Christians?

What would it take for a Christian to be seen as unpatriotic because they didn’t stand up every time some other Christians stated extremist views? Christians usually don’t have to because it’s already assumed they’re judged individually.

If you’re not willing to hold Christians as a whole responsible for a few Christian extremists then you shouldn’t be holding Muslims as a whole responsible for a few Muslim extremists.

It really irritates me how people think anyone from the Middle East is a terrorist. I believe that the US extropolates the idea of how many terrorist there are to great lenghts and cause unfair prejudice. I also think it’s quite funny how Americans put themselves above terrorist so much while that’s exactly how this country was founded. Not to mention the airports are ridiculous. @Jack79 Don’t even think about cutting your finger nails on the plain, that’s a deadly weapon that you could use to hi-jack the vehicle with >.>

@jsammons : My friend got her nail clippers taken away by airport security. I thought she was joking at first. I remember the days when we could meet our loved ones at the arrival gate. Don’t get me started on crazy security rules.

When was the last time christian extremists killed bombed a world trade center? When was the last time they did a suicide bombing or brought down airliners full of people or blew up subways or bombed night clubs. I don’t think your comparison is quite accurate.

The muslim extremists bring on their own problems.

The airport security seems overdone but I believe better safe than sorry and that is universal not just for certain groups.

@rooeytoo last night in fact, and every single day. Christian extremists are in Afghanistan and Iraq as we speak. Imagine if the USA was under Taliban occupation, would you be accusing “christian extremists” of trying to free their country? The people who fight for freedom against a foreign aggressor are always hailed as heroes in their own country, but seen as villains everywhere else.

There were 10 times more people killed by US bombings of Baghdad on day 1 than in all victims of terrorist attacks combined (including WTC). It’s all about perspective.

@galileogirl My family doesn’t have any problem with Jewish people. Though if a group of them went radical, who knows? I do try to explain to them that not all muslims are planning the end of the world and I’ve introduced them to a few great friends from college who practice their religion very strictly. But they’ve come to the point where they say muslims as a whole are bad with a few exceptions. And trying to break them of that opinion is proving extremely difficult.

I agree that it’s not helping that the majority of peaceful Muslims aren’t speaking up against their radical counterparts, that I know of. I wonder if we pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq, what would happen afterwards. Would they pick up the arms against them?

Arab Muslim people are Semitic, too. Hardly any Muslims are plotting to overthrow the US. In fact, from what we are seeing in the media, it would seem there are many more middle-aged, uneducated, hysterical, white Americans-including elected officials-who are interested in overthrowing the govt than any other group. Michelle Bachman managed to get 4,000 of them to rally for the overthrow of the govt this week. When did you ever see 4,000 Muslims rally for revolution from the capital steps?

It’s not the problem of the US to interfere. In fact it was ourintereference in Iraq and Afghanistan decades ago that set up bin Ladin and Hussein in the 1st place. Your family is still supporting the radical right by subscribing to their literature.

@jsammons My MIL recently had to remove her sewing scissors from her purse at a courthouse where we were going for the adoption of my niece & nephew. If you know how tiny & flimsy sewing scissors are you’ll get how stupid this was. I can’t understand how it is we can carry concealed weapons in public, but the minute we board a plane or go to a public bldg ordinary “purse” items become weapons

As for the Muslim discussion, it’s a difficult one. I do think the fact that there aren’t Muslim groups uniting to denounce violence is allowing this opinion/discrimination to cultivate further.

@galileogirl… I never said I agreed with my family… In fact I thought I made it quite clear it was the opposite. And when you say they subscribe to the literature… you mean the media? Because that’s what they’re running off of.

I think stereotyping any one group of people based on the actions of a few (or even actions of many) is in poor taste. It supports racism, oppression, and hate crimes. People should be judged individually and not by the ethnic, religious, or cultural groups they belong to.

As far as moving from black-white to another form of racism. Well it has never been only black-white. That is just a narrow way of seeing racism.

Also the discrimination against muslims flows over into other ethnic groups that may look muslim or as one comedian called it “ambiguously ethnic”. Just another horrible repercussion.

I think that many of the people of the United States have learned absolutely nothing since the internment of the Japanese-Americans during World War II.

@Darwin good point. I remember visiting an old internment camp when I was in junior high. The energy there was so depressing. Sigh.

@RedPowerLady – I was always amazed at the positive attitude of my mother-in-law, who was given 1 week to wrap everything up and get her pregnant self and her 3 yo on the bus to the relocation center. She managed to celebrate Christmas by getting close enough to the fence to break off a pine branch, which she displayed in their room, and she remembers a lot of little things about her children and what they did to amuse themselves. And all she ever wanted was an apology.

My husband was the first baby born at Santa Anita Relocation Center, and went on to live in various camps until he was five years old. He remembers the tadpoles in the puddles and community gardens to ensure a healthy diet.

@Darwin Sounds like they/you have an amazing strong family history. I hope you have recorded it somewhere for your children to read when they are older or have children.

@Iclamae and I said, as individuals and as a country, it’s better to work on the problems at home.

@galileogirl And I said I am.

@RedPowerLady Well I know other types of racism exist, I just meant in terms of major discrimination trends. There was anti-Japanese during World War II and anti-communist during the Cold War. I’m just wondering if this is a new trend, and hoping it won’t last as long.

I think it is awful the US is openly negative and hatelful towards Muslims in the media, and in some corners of our country. I think about the most recent presidential run and how people kept emphasising Obama is a Muslim, like that is a bad thing, or others insisting he was Christian, almost saying it would be bad if he was Muslim. A few voices out there did finally say that talking about it in this way implies being a Muslim is a bad thing, and hw awful it was that the conversation was going in that direction.

@galileogirl Of course you are correct that semitic technically includes Arabs, basically anyone who is middle eastern, but over time it commonly is used associated with Jews, even Jews from Europe. @Iclamae I think, like most people, do not think of the term including Arabs.

My gut reaction to the recent Mt. Hood horror, until I hear more information and details, is this guy was an American Muslim who obviously was having some psychiatric problems. He had asked to be let out of the army or transferred, I don’t remember which now, but he wanted out of his current position. He seems to have been having a difficult time hearing the stories of soldiers and Muslim soldiers and civilians (who he identified with) being killed and wounded. I fault the army for some of this, unless I find out the shooter was part of a large conspiracy; so far he seems to have acted alone. MASH did a show on this 30 years ago where a soldier was having a nervous breakdown because to be a good American he had to kill Chinese, and he was of Chinese decent (the Chinese were allied with North Korea). Horrible guilt and stress.

Does anyone know what country he or his family was from before the US?

@JLeslie He was of Palestinian decent

And born in Virginia.

@JLeslie I eschew common wisdom in favor of semantic accuracy.

However I will make this statment with the limited information I have. A relative reported that he was wooried about deployment since 9/11. He must have had a re-enlistment date in the last 8 years. I believe the longest commitment you can make is 6 years so there must have been the opportunity to opt out.

It was reported both last night and this morning that he was transferred to Fort Hood and scheduled for deployment because he did poorly on his evals. If that is true, OMG!! In the Army does falling apart mean the soldier will be given even more responsibility and stress?

@SpatzieLover Yeah, that’s pretty ridiculous about the sewing scissors, they are very small. What’s the world come to?

It just seems too much to ask for a person to hear about people being masaquered when that person identifies strongly. If we were fighting against Israel, I don’t see how I could hear about it every day or how my husband could go over there and actually fight against them. I am an American first, but I would not be the person to put in Israel or hearing horrible stories every day.

@galileogirl Probably true that he had a chance not to reenlist, BUT, they may have made him promises they did not keep. The Army needs everyone they can get right now. Also, when you get your medical degree with the military you owe at least as many years as it takes you to get through your degree, so depending when he started with the service would affect if he had ability to reinlist or not. He was at Walter Reed for a long time from what I understand. At least there he was near family most likely, if he was from Virginia, probably had a better supprt system for himself. He is 39 Years old I think? So, if he went in at 18, he can retire at 38 (unless it is different for doctors because of the schooling, that I am not sure, but he is close if he did enlist out of school), that is a lot to give up. At retirement you get half of your salary for the rest of your life, free space A flights anywhere in the world, access to military bases all over the world, medical care, and more.

@JLeslie – One question I have, though, is that the local news indicated that the shooter was willing to be sent to Afghanistan, but not Iraq. We are killing Muslims in Afghanistan also.

@JLeslie The option was not early retirement or mass murder for him and the Army’s choice should not have been keep him here if he is competent and ship him out if he isn’t

@Darwin Interesting.
@galileogirl Of course I agree. I do not excuse his murderous acts at all. I am thinking he must have been willing to die to do what he did, so he could have just committed suicide if he could not stand the idea of going to Iraq he did not have to take others with him.

I did hear the Army was going to get an order to take his computer because he had been accessing suspicious sites, sites related to suicide bombers. Don’t you think they should have kept him from dealing with our soldiers while he was being investigated?

I just heard on the news that he went to college at VA Tech and then med school with the military in Bethesda, so that must be at the Naval hospital in Bethesda, I used to get my medical there.

@rooeytoo : I’m not arguing in favor of Muslim extremists. We were talking about judging all people because of the actions of a few. That’s not done to Christians when they bomb a federal building, bomb health clinics, shoot doctors, lynch people, car bomb, etc. Those individuals or groups are called out by name. The media doesn’t tend to report that “Christian leaders call for [X] today” or “Christian extremists bomb clinic”. The media doesn’t tend to lump all Christians into the same group, but many of them are happy to do that with Muslims. And there are a lot of people who are happy to let that continue.

I have to say what little I have seen covering the story, Wolf Blitzer on CNN and Joe Scarborough on Morning Joe, no one has made it sound like it is just another crazy horrible Muslim, but have been very good to treat it in a neutral way.

I do agree that many times the media does highlight someone is Muslim, but they don’t talk about the religion when it is a Christian.

Well since 9–11 we have also been treating Muslims in other countries very poorly.

I may be wrong, but I suspect this was an isolated incident of random violence and the fact that the perpetrator is Middle Eastern and a Muslim is just coincidence.

@Jack79 – are you saying all the American GI’s and Aussie diggers are christian extremists?

Even George W never said he wanted to kill all the muslims, but there is a whole bunch of muslims (al quada ) who don’t hesitate to tell you they want to kill christians and get their 20–40 virgins.

You said yourself, “The people who fight for freedom against a foreign aggressor are always hailed as heroes in their own country, but seen as villains everywhere else.”
Maybe that is the reason that muslims incur suspicion outside of their own groups.

But what sort of bad treatment are muslims receiving in the USA since 9/11 other than a few isolated cases of discrimination?

Well in general, people are associating the practice of Islam with potential threat. I can sort of understand how that happened but it’s mostly frustrating how it continues to affect speculation. When there was talk of Obama possibly being a Muslim, there were the comments that he wouldn’t be fit to be president and could be a threat. And now with the shooting, while it is possible, the shooter’s religion is an immediate investigation lead. Which seems faster than it should be. I guess 8 years isn’t a long time in the grand scheme of things to let it run its course…

I guess it’s not as bad as it could be. People aren’t refusing to educate Muslim freshmen. I don’t know much about hiring. I guess it’s not a huge occurrence since we haven’t heard about it, but then it’s debatable whether we would. I just hear the whispers about Muslim people in the neighborhood and the rude jokes and worry.

I may have overreacted with posting this question but after hearing my mother’s friend rant about the shooter, I wanted to know if anyone else feels this worry.

I agree that many people not say all because that would be ridiculous, have ignorantly viewed Muslim people as being terrorists and make automatic assumptions about them. When in reality the amount of Muslim terrorist and militants compared to the Muslims who are non terrorists is slim. I am not saying that it is no normal to have these thoughts because of certain events which have taken place, but they should not be taken out of hand. A Muslim friend of mine had lived in New York when 9/11 occurred she was in 5th grade. She had walked out of her Mosk(sp?) and a full grown man freaked out and asked if she had a guy. Are you out of your mind? I think the extreme cases like this or even the cases of where Muslims have been wrongly accused of actions in which they did not commit because they were being racially profiled. I think that is wrong. The Muslim people and their faith is a beautiful one, and should not be lumped into the small numbers of Muslims that use their beautiful faith and turn it into a cause for war and killing.

@Iclamae People rant here also, I live outside of Memphis, TN. During the presidential race bunches of Christian’s here were freaked that Obama was/is a Muslim, they still believe it and still fear it. I don’t know what they are saying now with this shooting, because I have not been working the last couple of months, so I am not among the many lately.

The reason why Major Hasan killed all those people was not because he was Muslim. It was because he was crazy (you can call it psychologically disturbed if you wish). It is a great shame that the Army didn’t figure that out a long time ago. Section Eight exists for a reason, and while it can be abused, there are people who just shouldn’t be in the military, even if they might have been good soldiers for a while.

@rooeytoo : I don’t think all GIs are Christian extremists, but George W did use the word “crusade” in a way that would understandably make any Muslims nervous about just that.

@cyndyh – was that before or after 9/11?

I think if you want to say that the USA brought on what has happened by its behavior under the direction of George W, then it seems to me you would also have to say muslims have done the same by their behavior.

I thought the question was about their treatment in the USA by ordinary citizens. And in that case, despite the fact that most are not secret agents for al quada, the highly visible minority with their deeds, do make it difficult for the rest. Especially when the law abiding majority do not publicly chastise them for their bad or unlawful behavior.

@rooeytoo You mean the law abiding Muslims in your last statement above, right? I just wanted to clarify. I have been critical of this too. I will say my Muslim friends and coworkers at the time of 9/11 were horrified by the attack, but there are not many public Muslim figures speaking out enough in the media condemning the acts.

@JLeslie – yes that is what I meant. In Sydney & Melbourne there are a handful of extremist clerics who are continually making inflammatory remarks and suggestions. They are the minority but the majority for the most part turn a deaf ear and I think that is irresponsible and damaging to their own image in the public eye.

@rooeytoo A gentleman I knew when I was living in FL, he was/is Iranian, said to me that the reason none of the clergy speak out against the attacks and condemn them is because they agree with a lot of the sentiment behind the attacks, Ugh.

@JLeslie – I think their silence certainly lends credence to speculation of this nature.

This is my personal philosophy, when I moved to Australia, I wanted it to become my new home, I read Australian history, and fiction new and old, I immersed myself and with the exception of my Yankee accent have become pretty aussiefied. I wanted to be assimilated. Hell I even learned to understand and enjoy cricket! If I didn’t like what Australia stood for or its government policies were abhorrent to me, I would not have moved here in the first place.

It makes no sense to me that people move to a new country to escape tyranny and poverty but then refuse to embrace their new identity. So many try to turn their new home into a replica of what they left behind. They isolate themselves by dress and refusal to learn the language and the customs. They complain that their culture is not being respected when often they are not showing respect for the culture of their new country.

This is what I have experienced personally.

“Hell I even learned to understand and enjoy cricket!”

You really did want to become an aussie. I can handle footy, but cricket?

@Darwin – heheheh, don’t tell my partner because I still love to tease him about a game that can take 5 days and have regular tea breaks, but…... the one day games really are exciting and fun! I love to play it with the kids too. It took a while but I have arrived!

@rooeytoo : I didn’t say anything about the US bringing anything on ourselves. That’s not what I believe. I was commenting on your statement that “even George W never said he wanted to kill all the muslims”. Using words like “crusade” when talking about a current war implies that exactly. To answer your question, that was after 9/11. Having a leader saying that kind of thing doesn’t exactly give the perception that we’re a peaceful people.

I was also commenting on the media treatment of Muslims. When there are other shootings the media doesn’t lead with the religion of the shooter. That usually means they’re Christian. If you see a skew like that in reporting on religion of a shooter, then why would you believe that you’re getting the whole story when it comes to which religious leaders are in favor of peace. Occasionally you’ll get news of what peace coalitions are doing, but not enough. I think it’s important because it does help form public perception of Muslims with those ordinary Americans.

We have Christians ranting and raving all the time. You should see this tea party nonsense over here. You should hear some of the language used. Those people aren’t asked to assimilate to this culture. This is partly because almost all of them were born here and partly because we are multicultural and partly because extremist Christians get a special pass that other religions’ extremists don’t get here. There is no state religion, and rightly so. But there are a lot of folks who act as if we do have one.

When you moved to Australia do you think you were being asked to give up all of yourself? I hope not. People choose how they fit in with their new home, and some people do that more than others and in different ways than others. It’s not disrespectful of your new culture to be yourself and still have some of your old ways. I think that’s natural.

My experience with cricket comes from my Aussie-raised hubby. I really enjoyed baseball, and he wanted to show me cricket. He went to the effort of taping part of a game for me when he was visiting Australia and then had to borrow a PAL format TV and recorder from a Bengali co-worker so I could view it. I watched over an hour of this and said “Nothing’s happening” to which he delightedly responded “Exactly!” and handed me a beer. :^> Later I had the chance to play some cricket with a large group of Indian grad students. It’s much more fun to play than to watch, but there’s less beer involved when you’re playing. So there is a down side. Cheers!

@cyndyh – I think if a bunch of nuns had pulled off the 9/11 atrocities then they would be named as such. When someone chooses to make their religion the defining aspect of their life, then they are going to be recognized & described by that aspect.

When you become a citizen of a new country you are asked to pledge allegiance to it. To maintain some aspects of your old country’s culture is fine but to try to turn your new country into what you left behind is not respectful. If you don’t want to be singled out, then blend in, it is an individual choice. And if you choose not to blend in or adopt the customs of your new country then don’t complain because you are treated differently, it is your choice.

As I said, when I moved to Australia I wanted to be accepted so I did all that I could to blend in and be a loyal citizen of my new home. That is respectful. If I were critical of aussie ways and customs and found them untenable, I would not try to change them to suit me, I would go back to where they suited me.

That is my personal opinion and experience.

@rooeytoo I think sometimes people feel they are here temporarily until the government in their own country changes again. Cubans are the best example of this. They, the ones who came years ago in the first wave, who had money and education, loved their country and hoped Castro would be thrown out. Venezuela also has seen changes in government all too often. Chavez has been driving people to come to the states for several years now, many still have property in Venezuela and would consider returning, but like the Cubans, as more time passes this becomes less likely, and especially if they have children born here. It is different to have wonderful memories and have lived well in your home country than to have lived in misery and escaped to America.

@JLeslie – isn’t that the whole point, if you have lived in misery and you “escape” to the land of opportunity America, then why would you want to turn your new country into the misery you left behind???

i think the army’s trying to be more rational about it: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_shooting

@rooeytoo Some people loved their old country until the government changed or it became unsafe, so they long for their country as it formerly was. My grandfather had a miserable life his whole life in Latvia, so he was grateful, like many immigrants back then to come to the US.

Each individual is different. My husband and his siblings immigrated to America; each one in a different way under different circumstances. My husband is the only one who feels a strong allegiance to America and is grateful for the opportunities provided, but still also identifies with being Mexican. We are critical at times towards his siblings when they seem ungrateful, wondering why they stay (I should say that not everything they say is negative) the basic reason is having been here for several years, their life is here now, but if they could have a good job and life in Mexico they would go back. They are stuck in some way between two worlds and two cultures.

I agree that if you are going to live in a country you should take it upon yourself to learn about it, learn some of the customs, be open to the culture, and conform to some extent (I argue about this with redpowerlady alot). But, I am very fogiving towards adult immigrants who reluctantly leave their countries. I do not expect a strong allegiance, and I understand that they want at least some things to feel familiar, their home, even food, and church can give them a feeling or normalcy. It is the children, the next generation that typically assimilates more fully.

Hey I see my name up there ^^ lol

@RedPowerLady oh yes, I should have used the @ sorry.

@JLeslie I was just being a brat, lol

@RedPowerLady :).