Would you consider it extrememly rude if you send a personal email to a family member, and they invariable "delete without reading, " knowing full well you'll get that message at your end?

You find out that people deleted your email without reading? How is this? I haven’t heard of this before. What email client are you using?

I hope Andrew doesn’t know about this technology or else he’ll realize how many mod emails I’ve been deleting without reading.

Your sister needs a swift kick in the arse. Yeah, it’s rude. She’s being an ass.

AOL will tell you that it was deleted without reading, but I’ve never heard another client that does it.

@Val123 Is everything okay? I’m giving you extra ((Hugs)) just in case. It is the condolences reference that sparked this comment.

How does it work that you get a message back that she hasn’t read it? Just asking because I find that interesting.

In answer to your question if this was an ongoing occurrence then yes I would consider it extremely rude. Even if she is using a preview pane she is still choosing not to respond to you continuously. Siblings can be a bummer.

@Val123 How did all of this start? Not that it makes any difference. I’m just struck that neither one of you is really making a worthy welcoming effort to change the status quo.

Um, in Outlook and in Outlook express…it’s an option you can set up! Tools / Options. You’ll see several tabs in Options. One is receipts. It’s in there.

@virtualist Now how in the world can you come to a conclusion like that, from reading a short paragraph that spans 10 years of our lives??!! Trust me. gave it everything I had. I miss her a lot. She refuses to talk to me, refuses to tell me what I did wrong (however, I KNOW what it was, and she knows she’d look like a damn fool if she was honest about it.) She has issues, I guess.

hey @Val123 your sister’s a total ass- maybe more time it will take. guess who’s on their way over right now to ‘borrow’ money from me- you got it right , my sis lol- I feel for you.

@virtualist do you have siblings?

How rude can you be? There are times when I’ve tried not to have any contact with someone I was trying to get over, but, unfortunately, I don’t seem to be able to stay away, completely.

When someone actually does it, I take that to mean that they’ve written you out of their life. Stopping writing back kind of says “if you did it to me, I’m doing it to you.” When it’s sisters—that’s pretty tough. But your sister, as you know, has decided to hate you enough that she never wants to hear from you again.

I’m sorry this is happening to you. I think it’s not the rudeness that you are really bothered by. I think you really want to know how you can fix this breach between you and your sister.

I don’t know. Sometimes people cut you off, but they really want you to keep on reaching out to them. They want to see how much you really do love them. It’s a kind of test, I think. If you keep on reaching out long enough, they may relent.

I don’t think that’s the case here. I think she really doesn’t even want to be reminded that you exist. Do other family members talk to her about this?

We get shamed by all kinds of things. Some of which seem really silly to others. And then those things get blown up, and pride gets involved, and people say things they don’t feel like they can ever take back. I don’t think this kind of thing can be resolved without having a go-between. Or being on your death bed. And maybe not even then.

I’m sorry this is happening, and I wish I could offer you hope. I don’t know if it’s the mood I’m in, or if it’s because I really believe it, but I don’t think you can do this without intervention, and even then it might not work.

@RedPowerLady Yes. And you? ?

@virtualist Yes I do. I am just surprised to hear that you have siblings and don’t understand how tough the relationships can be. Sometimes it really isn’t about making an effort. They can break up regardless of how hard you try to keep them together.

Rude? No.

Toxic? Yes.

@Val123 Skip this sister over. She isn’t worth upsetting yourself. Obviously she’s the type of person that if she weren’t related to you, you’d never know or associate with her.

I wish I had a “Delete without Meeting” button for some of my relationships.

Both Outlook and Outlook Express also support “preview panes”... where you can view the contents of an email without explicitly opening it (like with a double-click).

Depending on your Outlook’s settings, a message being previewed may be Marked as Read after x seconds, or when selecting another email to preview, or not at all.

In other words, your sister can fully read your email… and leave it showing as Unread in her inbox.

Upon reading the email, if she has nothing to reply, she could then delete it. At which point you get the “Deleted without being read” message.

In short, you are possibly taking offense at NOTHING (at least in terms of email viewership).

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Call your sister and talk directly instead.

@robmandu I do that^^^^Whenever I get a read receipt message, too. I just had no words to describe it.

@RedPowerLady With great differences among us sibs , there still exist huge similarities. I think we’ve recognized and respected both aspects in our relationship(s). Maybe that’s why I do not know ‘how tough relationships can be’.

@virtualist I think you are making judgment calls when there is not enough information to do so. But glad you have things worked out well with your siblings.

I gotta tell you guys…this question took a direction that I totally didn’t intend, and I’m embarrassed. It was a valid question specifically meant to refer to email rudeness, kind of a sister (ha!) question to Daloons question. Without realizing it, my details turned into something completely different, like a “woe-is-Val” question. I had to leave for about an hour, on a deadline, and about three minutes after I left it hit me what I’d done! I actually hoped to come back to find it modded!
I thank you all for your thoughts. @daloon The crazy thing is when we have been kind of forced into contact in the past (family reunions, etc.) we have a fantastic time! We laugh hysterically at each other, we’re on the same page, we read each other’s minds….we could be very best friends! Each time I’ve hoped it would lead to a reconciliation but each time, after we part, it’s like I never existed. I know her well, so I understand why her brain is ticking the way it does, but I can’t fathom how anyone could justify such action, virtually over nothing. And no. Our family doesn’t talk about such things.
I apologize again. I’m really not a whiner, but I think I’ve done it TWICE today! Sheesh.

sniffling. Think they’ll feel sorry for me now? :)

I have to do this with my grandma because she sends me at least ten emails a day that are infected and not in any way funny or useful. I always delete if it’s any political ignorance also.

Well crap! I thought they deleted this!
@Clair That’s a different story, though. I’ve deleted “crap” without reading. I’m referring to personal, one to one emails to a family member…..

@Clair My grandmother used to do the same thing. But instead of deleting I had them automatically sent to a special folder, lol.

@Val123 Don’t worry. I’ve asked questions in a way I later regretted as well. Now permanently part of fluther history. I think most of us have.

@Val123 Oh! Didn’t understand. That’s inconsiderate. I would be insulted. Emails are the best way to talk to even the worst relatives. It only takes a second. That is most definitely rude.
@RedPowerLady I did that for a while but it got to 400 in a few months.

@Clair Ya mine gets pretty full too. But if they have receipt once it gets full you can just mark all as read and then delete. If no receipt then just ‘delete all’. I like to keep them in the folder though because every once in a while she will ask me about a particular one she sent, then I can save my butt and go find it, lol.

@RedPowerLady HAHA! I have to do that too. “Hey Clair, did you get that funny email I sent you?” “Uhhh, be back in a sec..”

—@Clair Sounds like we have some similar gmas. Oh and mine also sends me some that are ignorant, now those I don’t have a problem deleting right away. I told her that if she keeps sending me those I just want her to know that I respond to the original sender and tell them what I think. She quit for the most part, lol.

@RedPowerLady Amen

@Val123, I often read my e-mail without opening it.

Why exactly is this an issue for you? Are you including attachments are actionable, but she’s not acting on? Are you insulted because she’s not downloading and saving photos you send her of family members? If you know she’s not interested in hearing from you, then why are you doing that? I personally would find it very passive-aggressive if someone continued to send me photos, messages, etc. when I made it clear that I was not interested in hearing from them.

When it hits her e-mail inbox, it’s hers to do with as she sees fit.

@RedPowerLady “I think you are making judgment calls when there is not enough information to do so.” ... back at you.

@virtualist okay thanx

@virtualist Whoa! Jomp Back! —(That was for you PL! trying to follow suit!
@PandoraBoxx You too are jumping to conclusions. It’s an issue because she’s been my sister for 46 years. I haven’t emailed her on “frivolous” things for the last ten years, although we used to enjoy each other. But then things changed. Our Mom supposedly developed Alzheimer’s. I tried to email the State of Health Of Our Mom to my sister through most of the decade 2000’s. My sister consistently refused all verbal, messaging, and face to face discussion or any interaction with me. Mom died in 2006, and even when I sent important messages to the Family (cc’ing my sister) while this was happening (towards the last, we knew Mom was going to die within a wee….during that last week I STILL got got a “deleted without being read” message, even though I told her I was getting that message and how much it hurt me..all she had to do to prevent it was double click, and instantly delete. She chose not to do that) So, to this day, when I RARELY (say, once every two years) try to reach out after all of that, the “reach out” is on serious matters-(and never will be “frivolous” or “silly photo’s of my family” ever again)-well, to get a notification “message deleted without being read,” her knowing that that message was sent under serious circumstances, and knowing that will be my notification (because I told her so back in 03) will be getting that result: “Deleted without being read” is…unthinkable to me. In my idea of a family, anyway.

So, @PandoraBoxx have you revised some of your thoughts (As follows)
“Are you insulted because she’s not downloading and saving photos you send her of family members? If you know she’s not interested in hearing from you, then why are you doing that? I personally would find it very passive-aggressive if someone continued to send me photos, messages, etc. when I made it clear that I was not interested in hearing from them.

Maybe you should give up. If she wants to, she’ll get back in touch, but right now it seems like she does not want to be your sister. Maybe she doesn’t even want to be a member of you family.

@Val123 I thought @PandoraBoxx had valid points. I have the same thoughts she does. I was not joking when I said this is a toxic relationship. Sure, in front of others your sister can be chummy with you, but when left to her own devises in the privacy of her own home, she wants nothing to do with you.

Anyway, as @robmandu pointed out, anyone can read a message then delete it. Just because your read receipt says “deleted with out being read” does not mean the message was unread. I rarely if ever open my emails. I read in the preview pane thanks again for the accurate description Rob then delete. If someone has the gall to send it with a read receipt, I will always deny the receipt, as I find read receipts an invasion of privacy. one of my SIL’s used to do this all the time

If you aren’t fond of the way your sis deal’s with communication, why not call and leave her a meesage on her phone instead. Then, you know she’s heard your tone and inflection and she will know how important an issue is when one arises.

Personally speaking, I don’t think emails are the best for family communication on serious matters, as tone does not always come across properly (MHO).

@daloon I have given up.
@SpatzieLover I know you can read it without ever opening it. I’ve always used the preview pane too. But the thing is, I told her that I was getting that notification, and how it made me feel especially when the subjects were about something so important, personal and sensitive. She knew how it made me feel, but just couldn’t be bothered to take two seconds to take my feelings into consideration, I guess. I mean, always consider the source and sender of the email and the subject before I delete it apparently without reading it. I just can’t imagine getting an email, say, from Rick’s side of the family stating that so and so is in the hospital and not expected to live, and knowingly respond by “sending” them notification that the message was “deleted without being read.” We’re not talking about silly stuff, Spatize. We’re not talking about chain letters and internet jokes. We were talking about serious issues.
ANYWAY, that’s all water under the bridge. I don’t even try any more, and Mom’s gone (and Dad) so there’s nothing more to hold us together. So, oh well.
Now, CAN WE DELETE THIS QUESTION!!!???

@Val123 It’s hard to take a conversational tone (even you are mis-understanding my writing here). I’m speaking kindly and sweetly

We don’t need to delete this Q….Really. You might want to rethink why she deletes them on the read receipt, though. Like I said, I do it because I find the receipts an invasion of my privacy (like then the person will know I didn’t look at my emails until 3am or such;).

Maybe, just maybe, she wasn’t at all bothered by what you wrote because either she didn’t care what was going on with your mom, or she had a lot going on in her personal life.

I have similar relationships in my own family. My mom & I are the caretakers (when family was alive) of everyone. My mom’s bro & sis only wanted updates, wouldn’t necessarily respond, or if they did, the response was “Stick ‘em in a nursing home”....something we wouldn’t have done EVER! So instead, we just kept them in the loop only when absolutely necessary or would contact them only so we could hole the phone up to the dying person’s ear so they could say whatever last words they wanted.

Anywho, @Val123 , I’ve been there. Some people just aren’t even worth an email…not even a life or death one. (Some people are only interested in the estate, not the soul——sadly!)

@SpatzieLover I sorry….it just such a hurtful thing, you know? It fades as time goes on, but I’ll always have regrets that she chose for it all to turn out this way. Especially when you consider that we are the only two family members here. Everyone else is over 1000 miles away. There IS no one but us….

@Val123 You just described my family to a tee. We are the only ones here. My own sis gets involved only when she desires to. She is not at all compelled by duty or blood. Yes, it’s hurtful…I find it’s harmful to my sanity to get hung up on her mindset, though.

I mean this in the nicest possible way:

YOU ARE CHOOSING TO LET YOUR SISTER’S ACTIONS HURT YOUR FEELINGS.

—

@Val123 wrote, “I know you can read it without ever opening it. I’ve always used the preview pane too.”

(breathlessly) and yet… and yet…

@Val123 wrote, “I told her that I was getting that notification, and how it made me feel especially when the subjects were about something so important, personal and sensitive. She knew how it made me feel, but just couldn’t be bothered to take two seconds to take my feelings into consideration, I guess.”

(breathlessly) and yet… and yet…

@Val123 wrote, “I mean, always consider the source and sender of the email and the subject before I delete it apparently without reading it.”

—

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot logically accept the premise that she is indeed reading your emails and then turn around at the same time and blame her for technological operations of her email client.

I don’t know whether she’s reading them or not. But she’s your sister and you should be giving her the benefit of the doubt. Instead it sounds to me like you’re looking for faults to blame her for. Imagine your sister’s reaction if her interpretation is the same as mine.

I have no idea what’s going on in this whole messed up scenario. Mainly because we’ve only gotten your admittedly skewed perspective on events.

But my advice now is to not sweat the small and petty stuff. And email read receipts are definitely, most definitely, small and petty.

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I really do wish you the best in resolution of this. I understand it’s painful. But I feel you need to own up to the pain you’re inflicting on yourself.

To me this is not about her reading them but rather her not responding and knowing her sister is getting the response they are not read.

Anyhow we don’t choose when we get hurt. That is absurd.

@RedPowerLady I think we do if we allow a toxic person to affect our emotions

@SpatzieLover I disagree. We don’t choose who affects our emotions. Especially when it comes to family. We simply can’t choose our family. And they can do hurtful things. What does “allowing” consist of?

@RedPowerLady She contacted someone that she knew would most likely disappoint her. That’s allowing the disappointment to happen.

@SpatzieLover But that person is a family member and I think having this idea that we should ‘disown’ our family simply because they disappoint us instead of trying to include them in our lives (every now and again, not all the time) is not a bad idea.

@RedPowerLady, I didn’t say “we always choose to get hurt”... just that it seems like that might be going a bit with Val123’s particular problem here.

@robmandu Thank you for clarifying. However I don’t see how she is choosing to get hurt in this circumstance.

@SpatzieLover Also, if I chose to ignore all family members who disappointed me and not contacted them I would have no family left.

@Red, that’s fine. This whole kind of emotional drama thing is subject to interpretation from a dozen different angles. Furthermore, there’s a hundred little backstories we’re not hearing about that influence the various parties. It’s a mess.

@RedPowerLady I have never “disowned” a family member, I have severed toxicity from my life though. For me that has meant I deal with toxic family members on my terms only. Example: My dad was an alcoholic. Instead of visiting him on his bar stool, I’d go to his house and visit in the afternoon when he was less “drunk” I did not give him my home phone number, so there weren’t any 3am spewing ludicrousy phone calls——etc

I have a relationship with my sis, but it’s on my terms, not hers.

@robmandu I can agree with that.

@SpatzieLover I understand what you mean about the alcoholic family members. I’ve been through that myself and have done much the same as you. I just am not seeing how that applies to other circumstances I suppose. My opinion has little to do with how we choose to deal with family members but rather the idea that we choose when we get hurt. I think you are saying that we should minimize opportunities to be hurt. That I can agree with. However I simply do not think that we ‘allow’ emotional pain, or ‘disallow’ it for that matter.

@robmandu Truly, most of what you said made no sense to me! Sending a read or delete message has NOTHING to do with her mail client! The only way one gets that message is if the person on the other end deletes the mail without opening it up. I don’t assume she read it. I have no idea whether she read them or not. I was only saying the message was hurtful, and again the messages I was sending were not about small issues! Some of them were, yes, in an attempt to reconnect, but many of them were serious matters involving my mother.

You said, “But my advice now is to not sweat the small and petty stuff. And email read receipts are definitely, most definitely, small and petty.” Excuse me. Bullshit. If you’re talking about chain mail and internet jokes, then yes, it’s petty. When you’re talking about a mother who has begun hallucinating and is slowly losing her mind and needs to be moved to a psychiatric facility, it is NOT petty to be upset that the one other person who is most important in dealing with the issue appears to not be reading them, much less not communicating with you on the issuses, especally when there was no one but her and I to deal with it.

@SpatzieLover I had no one else to contact! It’s not like I had 8 people who would have responded and communicated, and I decided to choose the one who would hurt me! There was no one else!

@Val123… sorry, based on your earlier quips, I thought you understood what I’d written earlier.

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Your sister can READ your email in the PREVIEW pane. It will NOT necessarily be marked as “read”.

It is common for folks to follow the Inbox Zero approach to email… which is to DELETE email after reading it.

Your sister therefore can READ your email, inadvertently leave it marked as “UNread”, DELETE it, and then you get “email deleted without being read” message.

—

My point is, it’s possible YOU ARE BEING LIED TO BY HER EMAIL CLIENT, but not by your sister directly.

If I’m right (and I might not be), you’re blaming your sister and she’s done nothing wrong.

I think you are saying that we should minimize opportunities to be hurt. That I can agree with. However I simply do not think that we ‘allow’ emotional pain, or ‘disallow’ it for that matter.

I don’t allow for any hurt. As a child I was emotionally immature enough to think my family “meant to do me harm”, as an adult I am emotionally mature enough to realize they are just different than I am.

Examples: My sister just doesn’t want or need family in her life more often than holidays or the rare occasion, she prefers friends. One aunt & uncle choose “their” family above everyone else’s to concern themselves with always. “Their” family does not/did not include my grandparents or their siblings. Another Uncle & Aunt choose their social circle events to supersede even funerals.

I no longer expect my sister to be interested in what I have to say or in my emotions. It’s illogical. She’s not interested and that’s that. Sounds to my like Val’s sis is the same. In my case it means that my husband & I invite her to our home for the holidays. We also know that when she comes she will be interested in telling us all about her, and not interested in hearing about us. We just think of it as her loss, since our son is now starting to see her true colors and no longer wants to share with her as he did prior to this.

@SpatzieLover I understand what you are saying and it makes clear sense to me.

I will also say that I think you are applying logic where logic doesn’t always exist. What you explain is a construct of the “head”. Emotion is a different construct, it is not subject to logic. We can watch a TV commercial and end up in tears even though we understand it is completely illogical. We can be truly horrified by a scary move even though we understand it is completely illogical. This is the same in most circumstances of emotions. They just hurt, regardless of our logic or emotional maturity. Even if you know your mother doesn’t mean to hurt you, you still have every right to be hurt (as a random example).

I suppose some people are more ruled by logic. Others are more ruled by emotion. I don’t think either is better than the other. And I think anyone always has a right to their emotions, no matter how illogical.

I respect your opinion and your way of dealing with family. It is very healthy. I also respect those who allow their emotions to be more forefront in their lives and don’t think that it is their fault if they are hurt, as it is completely natural.

@RedPowerLady I happen to wear my heart on my sleeve. It took a lot of maturing to get to the realization that people do not usually intend to do others harm. Most people are just thinking of themselves. If I’d allow emotions to rule my life (as a did when I was younger) I’d be setting myself up for a miserable life.

@SpatzieLover I understand that! I still think that hurt can come without intent and that it is valid. But I also agree that by having some control, when possible, we lead happier lives.

@RedPowerLady Agreed! I remind myself when I’m feeling hurt that I am not living “present”. I try my best to keep my emotions present.

@Val123 Are you still here? ;) Just don’t allow that sister’s actions to dictate your emotions. it took me awile, but that’s as concise as I can put it

@robmandu You said, “Your sister can READ your email in the PREVIEW pane. It will NOT necessarily be marked as “read”.” I KNOW that! I use preview myself, and I am fully aware of how it works! But she also knows that if she doesn’t open it, and just deletes it, I will get that message. Now, when you get a message like that you really have no way of actually knowing beyond a doubt that they read. You are left with the strong impression that they didn’t whether they did or not.

And the “email client” can’t “lie”. It’s a machine!

Furthermore, there was nothing inadvertent or accidental about what she was doing, as it happened 100% of the time, and further, it didn’t start happening until after the falling out. Prior to that I always got a “Has been read” notification.

She was playing rude, hurtful, bitchy, cruel head games, and it was not accident. It most definitely WAS her fault, especially when she continued to do it after I spoke with her about it.

@SpatzieLover Oh, I’m over it, pretty much, except for at the moment just because it got brought up BUT THAT’S NOT MY FAULT! It’s my keyboard’s fault for typing in the letters that wound up in the detail, that lead to this!! (Using Robmandu’s logic.)

Sheesh.

So, let me get this straight. Your sister (or anyone you deal with really) must use her email software on her computer in the way that you see fit?

I don’t know. Maybe she is doing it intentionally to hurt your feelings. But I think it silly to focus so narrowly on this one aspect of her behavior. Instead, I think you should cut to the chase. Focus on the real problem. Deal with it and with her directly.

You probably should continue to lobby for this question’s removal.

@robmandu You finally got it. Yes, she was doing it intentionally. She fancied herself some VIP, and Very Important People do not stoop so low as to consider other people’s feelings. She refused all attempts by me to discuss the problem, plus this was several years ago, and there is no longer any problem, as far as I’m concerned. No longer any family, no longer any sister. You can approach a person and try to deal with it directly, but if they just slam the door in your face, what are you supposed to do.
This was just ONE of many crappy aspects that she displayed. I happened to focus on this particular one, as it was pertinent to the question I asked. Had I asked a different question, on say, “How would you treat someone you loved who had Alzheimer’s” then we’d be discussing the fact that my mother totally embarrassed my sister, and she wanted as little to do with Mom as possible. If the question had been, “Do you use people,” then we’d have had a totally different discussion of my sister’s behavior toward my mother before she got sick.

@Val123, I understand your position, because I have been on both ends of similar relationships with various family members over the last several years. I’m just coming off of not talking to my only sister for 3 years, and my mom has Alzheimer’s. The reason why I stopped talking to her was quite serious. My sister manages my mother’s life, and I had to take crap from the whole family for not talking to my sister, and as a result ended up not talking to several of my aunts and uncles, primarily because I did not feel I needed either a lecture or to explain the circumstances.

You can only manage what you can manage, and that’s to live your life to your own standards, and hold yourself accountable for those standards. To hold people accountable for what you think is right is only an exercise in frustration, and it does become passive aggressive. You have to let go of it. Whatever denial your sister is in over your mother, that is her issue, and her accountability to your mother in whatever afterlife she believes in. She has to be the one to make the move, make peace with her own inner demons, in her own way and own time. She didn’t act correctly for whatever reason. You know it, she knows it, everyone knows it.

Let it go. Be glad that you’re not her, because she cannot be a happy person.

@PandoraBoxx My sister too took over Mom’s care, and did a horrible job, IMO. My hands were kind of tied as I live 30 miles away, and my sister never allowed any discussion about Mom’s care. Plus, without my knowledge, she’d gotten Mom to hand over all Power’s of Attorney to her (Mom wouldn’t have done it if she’d understood what was happening) so….yeah. My hands were tied.

I sincerely appreciate your understanding. You are so right, in everything you advised in the second paragraph.

Alzheimer’s will rip a family apart….and when that family consists of only two people, it’s even sadder.