Have you read the book, "A Handmaiden's Tale"? Do you think it is appropriate material for required reading in a lit class, for Seniors in High School?

I read the book a long time ago, and remember loving it. It is a difficult book with heavy feminist topics of enslavement—but I think people have to let go of their objections to sex in literature. Seniors in high school are on their way either to college (where there are no hovering parents) or to work, and either way, the goal of full development is to be a fully competent adult, including ability to know and understand what sex is all about. Having a book that talks about such topics will not hurt the “child.” Pretending that such things don’t exist, or that no one thinks of such things is more dangerous, to my mind.

@skfinkel Thank you for your opinion. I really can’t make a judgment because I haven’t read the book. However, until the kids are 18 they are still their parent’s responsibility, and it is the job of the parents to guide them in the way they see fit. The school takes away that right when it starts making decisions of that nature.
Nobody is trying to hide sex, and they learn what it’s all about in a hundred different ways. A porn novel (if that’s what it was) is not they way to teach them about sex. To me, the teacher, as the adult, is sending the wrong messages to the kids….

What, does your friend want to pretend that sex and rape don’t exist?

The book does a phenomenal job addressing the role of women in society. Rape, victimization of, and violence against women are vitally important issues that high school students are going to be confronted with whether they like it or not. Better to address them in a safe, educational environment and open a dialogue about them—which is exactly what the book does.

It is absolutely NOT a porn novel—to write it off as such seriously diminishes the value of an important piece of literature. The principal and parent should be ashamed of jumping to such conclusions.

@nikipedia No, she’s not saying that she is trying to pretend sex and rape don’t exist. However, there are a lot of things that exist that really don’t need to be forced on the children, such as sodomy, incest, bestiality. Just because something exists is not a valid reason to bring it to the forefront.

I’d have to look at it, really. My point is, it’s the parent’s call whether it’s time to introduce certain subjects in certain lights. NOT the school’s.

Deifnitely not porn. Writen by Margaret Atwood who is a serious author. It’s more about the politics of gender taken to the logical ultimate mightmarish conclusion than it is about sex. In the future the book is set in, it isn’t considered rape to take young fertile women and turn them into servants for wealthy and powerful men – the handmaiden’s ultimate job description is to be barefoot and pregnant, and produce offspring who will be handed over to the man’s barren wife, who is enslaved in her own way.

Do you let your kids read books that have killing in them? Have they ever seen “Star Wars”?

I don’t get why killing is perfectly acceptable to write about in YA literature… but sex is this weird taboo. Most seniors in high school have had sex.

I guess I’m mostly confused as to by what “standards” you think it’s inappropriate.

@MagsRags I really do want to read it! It sounds like it has some very redeeming qualities regarding power in a society, which would be appropriate for discussion at the HS level. My concern is, how graphic ARE the rape and sex scenes? IMO, the basis of the book is appropriate, but from when I understand specific passages in it are not.

@Qingu Killing and dying are facts of life, and a valid topic, say, from a view point of War. It is NOT a valid topic to delve into all of the hoary details of what John Wayne Gacy did to his victims.

By my standards, Q. I’m the parent, the kids are my responsibility, and my standards are the only ones that count when it comes to my kids. Not yours, not anyone elses.

Wait, killing is a “fact of life” but sex is not?

How many high school seniors kill people?

Also, I understand that your standards are your standards. That’s a tautology. What I’m curious about is whether or not you have some sort of rationale or moral reasoning behind them.

Yes, sex is a fact of life! They learn the mechanics of sex in biology class. They learn the realities of sex from each other. Hopefully, they’ve learned the important facts they really need to know from their parents. Sex in general is OK. Graphic descriptions of the rape of woman is not suitable material for the kids, IMO. Neither are graphic descriptions of sodomy and incest, even though those things are a fact of life for some. Just because something is a fact of life, doesn’t mean we make sure the kids know all about it.

Yes, I have rationale for my reasoning. It’s common sense, and knowing and understanding how a kid’s mind works, and what their perceptions may be.

I cannot believe this but YES I have read it. Wow, that never happens. The book is relatively disturbing but regarded as an important work of modern feminist literature. Margaret Atwood certainly didn’t include the rape/violence in an effort to just ‘spice things up’. :p

EDIT: We should pull To Kill A Mockingbird from the reading reqs too I guess.

But the purpose of these scenes in these books is not to titillate and entertain. It’s to educate students and to open a dialogue about some very serious and very present problems. And I reiterate: if they have not encountered these already, they will, whether their parents like it or not. Approximately 1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Younger women are more vulnerable and at higher risk.

You can’t protect your children from everything, and I think you shouldn’t protect them from having an educated discourse about violence against women. Which is exactly what this book encourages.

Read it a long time ago and don’t remember specific sexual content but I certainly think it is a serious novel discussing feminism and dystopian ideas. I think it would be highly appropriate for a Senior English class.

I am really enjoying reading this debate. I sit on both sides of the fence myself.
First I agree that school is a safe place to address these topics and ignoring them solves little. In fact most homes would do just that and it serves no purpose even if it is the families value system to do so.

However I do see a problem with having this as required reading if in fact incest, bestiality, and rape are described in any detail. That is not safe reading for many adolescents as they may have experienced this in real life. It could trigger some serious trauma and unless teachers are equipped to recognize that then perhaps they should make it an optional reading (have two choices perhaps). The mental health of students is just as important as the education they could gain in reading the material.

@Val123, when I was in high school—I think I was a freshman—we had to read All Quiet on the Western Front. It was about World War I. It described some of the most harrowing death scenes I have ever read. I’ve never heard anyone suggest the book is inappropriate for high schoolers.

So I guess I’m curious as to why you think it’s okay to read graphic descriptions of death and violence, but not okay to read graphic descriptions of something that happens to 1 in 4 women. Something which, if it doesn’t happen to your friend’s kid, almost certainly will happen to someone she or he knows.

And by the way, asserting that you have “common sense” isn’t actually a rationale for anything.

Read the book, it’s a wonderful text that presents many very important topics to discuss – senior year is perfect for that – I remember reading books of that caliber in my AP English class and still credit that class for helping me do well in the beginning of college. The parent is obviously projecting their own discomfort with sex. Schools, by nature, are more reserved than people think and that book is not like anything that parent is describing.

@nikipedia I understand that the scenes described are not gratuitous, but they are graphic, from what I understand, and that’s what I have issue with.
To Kill a Mocking Bird, The Scarlett Letter, those are also tremendous works of literature, but for example, a Scarlett Letter alludes to what happened. You can figure it out. It doesn’t have to come out and describe the acts. To Kill a Mockingbird, same thing. You don’t lose anything at all by not describing in graphic detail what happens to the daughter of that one drunken skunk.
BUT, as I said, I really need to read it myself. O dear. People’s popping and crafting like a banshee up there!!

@Val123 but Johnny Got His Gun uses graphic visuals to make a statement about war and it’s a common read in school. Can’t a tasteful novel do the same with the horrors of rape? I bet if the rape weren’t in there, no one would say ‘boo’ about the other violence (e.g. myriad hangings).

Making sexual violence taboo doesn’t help educate kids about the atrocities committed against women IMO.

As I said, I read it a long time ago, but if anything, I found it compelling but a little dry. I really don’t remember graphic sex scenes; is my memory that bad?

@nikipedia Yes, the kids are going to come across everything under the sun as they grow. We can’t protect them from it all. But we CAN guide them, teach them what is OK and what isn’t. For example, my child wants to watch a particular movie that I feel is inappropriate for him. He might say, “But I’ve already seen it at Joe’s house.” My response is, “That may be so, but you’re not going to see it in my house!” We need to guide the kids, not throw unnecessary grenades in their paths!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Thanks. I’ll look into it. (It was Nina who posted the Q on Inquire, BTW! If you wanna go look.)

@Qingu It’s been a long time since I read all Quiet on the Western Front. I remember it affecting me deeply, but I don’t remember any specifics. And now I’m on my way to the library to check that book out! (They don’t have The Handmaiden. I checked.)

@Val123 well why would she of all people be upset…she’s got quite a developed sexuality

@Val123, yeah, it’s the kind of book I think you only need to read once. Like how you don’t really need to see Schindler’s List again. I tried to read it again recently and I couldn’t.

I think what bothers me is that it just seems like there’s a double standard here. I think Atwood especially would argue that we should really question why sex and rape are such “taboo” subjects in our culture when violence and warfare—things that are usually the province of males—are not.

Let’s see, kids can go out and see crap like American Pie but shouldn’t read and discuss novels about the subjugation of women?

@janbb Lurve for “crap like American Pie”.

Beyond the sex, it gets worse. In the future, the world has been taken over by right wing extremists and it’s their weird form of Christianity that developed this twisted culture.

In the future the country or world (I can’t remember which) has been divided into 2 groups, the powerful leaders and businessmen who live a religion centered existence in serene gated communities. Their wives live in a protected bubble. Their clothing denotes their status and their lives are made up of providing a comfortable upper class home (with servants) acting as hostess and companion and socializing with others of their class. They are evidently not intimate with their husbands.

Within the walls there is a servant class who live very restricted lives that provide food, clothing, a furnished room and little else. There is also a group of men who act as police/bodyguards.

Outside the gates the rest of the population are workers who support the ruling class and are always secretly in revolution for equal rights and opportunities. Far away from the city there are outposts of people who live on the land and try to avoid being captured and forced into laboring for the rulers.

Our heroine is captured with her young child while her husband is away, then they are separated. Her main motivation will be to find herchild and return to her home. Attractive captives are spared becoming forced laborers by serving the a member of the ruling class. Others work in clubs to serve. Our heroine is chosen to serve an important man and she is given a room in the gated community. Women of her status wear scarlet robes and head scarves to identify and cover them. They must serve but also keep themselves modestly out of the way of the wives who are usually somewhat jealous Our heroineleads a parallel life to the wife. The wife goes to official events and parties but after the husband is likely to take his girl dressed in revealing dress to a club that is not as prim.

There is a ritual to the sex. Sex with the servant is supposed to be for procreation only, so the wife supervises the very mechanical act. Any children that come are the children of the wife while the servant is only the vessel

Our heroine searches his documents to find where her child might be. She joins up with his driver who is a secret rebel, to find her daughter. She gets swept up in plots and violence and eventually finds her way home.

The book was published almost 25 years ago and I found the theme of a totalitarian theocracy much more disturbing than the sex As far as taking the book to the principal, you must know that required and recommended reading lists are thouroughly vetted. The district curricular staff, the school administration, the English department head and the school board are all given the information about these booiks. I’m actually surprised a woman in her 30–40’s has never heard of A Handmaid’s Tale. It is very widely read and discussed. If you can’t devote the time, there is a movie starring Natasha Richardson made in 1990.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I know! That’s why I thought you’d appreciate knowing who started it! The difference though, is that we’re talking about influencing, or exposing teenagers, possibly even against their will, to things that might not make the right impression upon them. Not the same as an adult choosing to read erotica.

@Qingu Sex is not taboo. Violence and warfare are not taboo. It’s the context in which you place them. In the examples about, for example, To Kill a Mockingbird, the violence of the rape of the poor daughter is implied, and the reader has to use their imagination. She didn’t go into specific details of what her father did.

@janbb The biggest issue is not whether they choose to do it, it’s because they had no choice. It was required reading. Not the same as choosing to go to a POS movie with your friends.

@galileogirl Thanks for the synopsis. It really does sound like a fascinating read. I can understand how you’d find many things about the concept more disturbing than the sex, but that’s the POV of a grown woman, not an emerging sexual girl/woman. Sex is what it’s all about at that age, and sexual things make a bigger impression on them than other, even more important things like “totalitarian theocracy”

I really, REALLY gotta get a copy of this, don’t I!

@RedPowerLady You said, not good if “rape is described in any detail.” Exactly. Thank you. It’s the “detail” that I have issues with…..at that age, there is no telling what the outcome will be for each kid.

@Val123 As I recall, and thank you for the great synopsis @galileogirl , the story allows (requires) servant girls to procreate for the wives—in the place of thei wives. If you have read Genesis, there is quite a bit of that going on there as well—although not with the actual act having oversight of the wife. But the servant has a child for the husband of the barren wife.

@Val123 I get what you mean. At that age I don’t think it should be banned in schools. But I think it would be appropriate for the teacher to explain beforehand what type of content is in the book and allow the teens to choose to read it or another alternative. There is no harm in doing it this way.

@Val123 it is not erotica.

Exactly @RedPowerLady The fact that it’s required is what’s bothering me.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I don’t think that it is, either, from what I heard. But, from what I’ve heard, it does have graphic, descriptive erotic scenes in it. It wouldn’t cause me, as a full grown adult, to bat an eye, but I might see it in a different light as a 17 year old boy or girl.

But why are graphic sex scenes worse than graphic violence and war scenes?

Do you think kids should read All Quiet on the Western Front in school?

Or are you saying that everything that isn’t as “PG” as To Kill a Mockingbird isn’t appropriate for 17-year-olds? (Who can see R-rated movies and, in a year, could be deployed to a war zone?)

I am a strong believer that parents should have a heavy influence on their children’s curriculum (should they put in the effort.) So if a large number of parents have a problem with the book being read in class, and they take action, bring it up at school board meetings, etc., then it should be removed from the reading list. (But I don’t think most parents, if they actually read the book themselves, would object in the first place.)

That said: Seniors in high school are not children, are not innocent, are past the age where they need to be sheltered from complex or challenging ideas. I can see why parents would be upset if a book with graphic scenes were being read by sixth graders, but seniors in a high school literature class are practically adults. They should be reading controversial material that requires them to think. As a student, I’d prefer The Handmaid’s Tale to some of the drudgery I had to read as in my senior lit class.

My cousin recommended the book to me a while back, and I think I even went so far as to take it out of the library (my high school’s library, when I was a sophomore,) but I never read it. So my answer is based solely on the posts in this thread, what other people have told me about it, and the Wikipedia article on the novel.

@Qingu I don’t think they are any worse. I think the issue with this population is the rate at which it might cause trauma. For me, anyhow. People who experience physical abuse may be affected by the violence you are describing however it is not the same type of violence they are facing at home. However people who experience sex abuse are reading about the same type of violence they face at home. So it is a bit more likely to cause a trauma reaction. In any occurrence of severe or graphic scenes I think the children (because they are still children, of course we could argue this point but my main point in calling them children is that they lack resources to deal with trauma) should be warned ahead of time and given a second option if they have a legitimate reason for opting out.

Also, @Val123: But, from what I’ve heard, it does have graphic, descriptive erotic scenes in it. It wouldn’t cause me, as a full grown adult, to bat an eye, but I might see it in a different light as a 17 year old boy or girl.

I feel kind of silly discussing a book that neither of us have read, but though some of the scenes in the book may be graphic, my understanding is that they are not “erotic.” I’d avoid making the claim that that they wouldn’t cause you to bat an eye before you’ve actually read the book. Most of the time when graphic scenes are depicted in graphic literature, they are intended to make adult audiences pause, not because the writing is erotic, but because it is powerful. That’s what differentiates serious literature from a dime novel.

@Qingu Graphic sex scenes aren’t worse than graphic violence scenes!
Off the top of my head I would say “Yes. They should read All Quiet on the Western Front.” However, I don’t remember all of the details of the story, I just remember it made a huge impression on me the first time I read it ten years ago. But I’ll get back to you if I change my mind, because I actually went out and rented in response to a comment on here, and I’m reading it now. To Kill A Mockingbird was anything but PG.

@petethepothead thanks for weighing in. I agree that Seniors in HS aren’t “children” but they aren’t adults yet either, and many of them ARE innocent in so many ways….I don’t think it’s necessary to throw the sicker sides of human existence in their faces as “required” learning. Also, to your second post, what I meant by “not batting an eye” was that it would not have the same effect on me, whose been through two marriages and three kids and everything in between, as it would on a 17 year kid who just might still be a virgin.

@RedPowerLady, that’s a very good point, and one I had not considered.

In those cases, though, wouldn’t the student have a much better idea of what was “appropriate” than the parent? It doesn’t seem like that is the basis by which this person wants to stop this book from being taught in class. There’s a difference between being sensitive to actual victims’ desires and seeking to whitewash real-life “gratuitousness” from literature.

@Qingu Yes. I agree with you. It should be the choice of the student. The parent can try to influence the student if they would like as that is their right. However the student is the best determiner of what is appropriate.

”I agree that Seniors in HS aren’t “children” but they aren’t adults yet either, and many of them ARE innocent in so many ways…”

I bet the number of high school seniors who have not seen or read or done worse than what’s depicted in this book is quite low.

That’s one of the greatest books I’ve read. It was an assignment for science-fiction literature in college. I wish I had read it sooner.
I would definitely allow my teen to read it, especially my sons when they get to that age. Frankly, I don’t see the need to censor books like that…it takes a lot for me to find something inappropriate.
The book does not encourage rape or anything, if that were the case then I could see where she is coming from. Did she just skim the book? She might not have understood what it’s really about.

Also, to say it would upset a teen who has suffered sexual abuse…manybe it would help the teen come out with what happened to them. I had no one to talk to about it, and nothing that would even open up the table to talk about such things. I wonder if this would actually be beneficial to someone who suffered assault.

@Val123 just read it. I read this when I was much younger than a senior in high school, yes it is graphic, but it is so lyrically and carefully written that it brings to the reader what the story is really about. It’s not shocking or titllating at all.

@casheroo In regards to the abuse. That is up to the teen or the teens counselor. That is not up to a teacher in high school, IMO. If as a teen someone feels it is helpful then fantastic! But for many teens it could trigger trauma and if they have no resources to access (as many teens don’t) it could be potentially dangerous. But I bet if used therapeutically it could be quite beneficial (just in the right setting or with the right resources). Now I am quite interested in this book, BTW. Which I have not read.

I read it on my own in 1987 shortly before my 18th birthday. It’s pretty literal in terms of the ruthlessness shown to the bodies of women who aren’t in the top tier of the dystopian society it’s set in. I don’t know if that would be a trigger for some young people or not. It wasn’t for me. It made me think about how important it is to have control over your own body.

Were I a teacher, I would assign these books as part of an elective “society and ethics” class, say, and it would be discussed to compare and contrast with what’s happening in our society now. At least then, the people who take such a class would have an idea of what they’re getting into.

@MacBean Well, if all you listen to is the media, of course you’re going to think that!

@trailsillustrated Thanks.
@aprilsimnel I think maybe it would have been better to have been “suggested” reading, rather than “required.” IDK! I shouldn’t have started this when I haven’t even read the dang thing!!
@RedPowerLady Yeah…we’re going to be all over it when we find it!!

Oh yay! It’s in my library and my library is small. I’m going to check it out. I had to search by author though, the title search didn’t work out for me.

It’s not in ours. Sniff. Wait…the title didn’t work? I’ll do an author search….Thanks @RedPowerLady

That’s because the correct title is The Handmaid’s Tale.

I have read the book and it probably was about my high school time though not part of any school suggested reading, something my mom had about the house. It is a book with graphic sexual descriptions, it isn’t an erotic story though nor would I say violent but it’s emotionally heavy and I think a very good read for high schoolers, few of them are childish in what they know of sex anyway whether they’re doing it or not.

I read it on my own at some point during high school. As I recall, it was more clinical than erotic.

Yes, it is the parent’s decision, but I wish more of them could be more open minded. Teens know about and understand more than they are given credit for and it helps them to have a place to discuss these things.

I don’t understand why you are so against a book you have not read. You keep calling it erotic although everyone has said it is definitely not. Are you simply taking the word of this friend of a friend? Her idea of erotic may not be the norm.

this all reminds me of the time when I taught civil rights to middle-school girls and the parents were not at ALL aware about what their children actually wanted to discuss…they wanted someone to talk to the kids about events of the 19th century that aren’t relevant to them now…yet the kids wanted to discuss gang rapes, kidnappings and teen pregnancy…why? because this was their reality and to deny that was one of the stupidest things I saw their parents and teachers do…needless to say I was told I teach ‘inappropriate’ materials when what I did was teach in simple terms the lessons these children wanted to have…and I was the only one of the 15 after-school teachers that had perfect attendance to my voluntary 3x a week classes…

@Val123: I’m not drawing my opinion from the media at all on this. I think the media’s views on young people are generally ridiculous. I’m drawing from personal experience.

@MacBean Personal experience is also colored by…..personal experience! You, or the group you ran with, may have been wild and crazy, but you didn’t even notice the ones who weren’t.

Interesting. From All Quiet On The Western Front “For us lads of eighteen they ought to have been mediators and guides to the world of maturity, the world of work, of duty, of culture, of progress—to the future. We often made fun of them ad played jokes on them, but in our hearts we trusted them. (emphasis mine) The idea of authority, which they represented, was associated in our minds with a greater insight and a more humane wisdom”

I quote this only because the teachers (and parents) have a huge impact on the kids, whether they realized it, or believe it, or not. I’m not sure that all teachers realize this, or understand how much much influence they have on the kids and the seriousness of every thing they do…...

Anyway, making an emergency run to SE Kansas for a family member. Be gone at least a couple of days, maybe more. I’ll talk to ya’ll when I get back.

@Val123: I didn’t have a “group.” My school was so small that the cliques all intermingled. So everyone “ran with” everyone else. And I was a watcher; I noticed, talked with and listened to everyone. I’m telling you: kids are curious. By that age, the kids who weren’t “wild and crazy” enough to experiment on their own were interested enough to have found their way onto the internet or into the library (or, hell, the movie theater, or their freakin’ TV room) to see and/or read things that were much worse than A Handmaid’s Tale.

Annnd… also, having fairly recently been in a program to get a teaching degree, they don’t let you forget how impressionable kids can be and how much of an impact you’re going to have on them. Older teachers may have become jaded over time, but newer ones get it drilled in.

@MacBean I don’t dispute that at all (except that I will stress that, again, your experiences are YOURS. It doesn’t necessarily reflect the experiences of ALL HS kids…..) My point is, as adults, are we truly guiding them through this minefield, or throwing hand grenades at them?

I have a BS in education. I taught school for 4 years, getting ready to get back in as a sub. Sure, they stress to you how much influence you have on the kids, but there are teachers out there that are too stupid to understand that, or just don’t care. And I’m talking about some of the young ones my kids had. And the ones I had, like the art teacher who made passes at his female student (which was GROSS!!!!) Overall, teachers are fantastic, really special people, but it just takes one bad on to rock a kid’s world….

”...what I meant by “not batting an eye” was that it would not have the same effect on me, whose been through two marriages and three kids and everything in between, as it would on a 17 year kid who just might still be a virgin.”

Of course different people, in different stages of life, will have different reactions to a text. But just because a teenager will react differently to a text than someone older might, it doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be worthwhile for them to read it. One great thing about books is that when you reread them you can reflect on how your views have changed. This is true of all books.

I don’t think it’s necessary to throw the sicker sides of human existence in their faces as “required” learning.

I don’t see it as throwing anything in their faces. It isn’t graphic for the sake of being graphic; it’s graphic because it needs to be to convey the author’s message. The purpose of a literature class, nay, or literature itself is to discuss and analyze the human condition. The treatment of woman seems like a great thing to discuss, especially for high school seniors.

@petethepothead I tried to read the book this last week. It was AWFUL!!! I would have stuck with it, but I had rented it from an out of town library, had to return it so I only got through 10 chapters. I would have thrown a fit over a lit teacher assigning such drivel! You know, the point of assigning reading like that is to open the kids up to the awesome power the written word can have when it comes from a particular pen. That was NOT a good choice in that regard. Not like The Grapes of Wrath, Lord of the Rings, To Kill A Mockingbird, classics like that…

Lord of the Rings is drivel for the first half of the first book, the entirety of the second book, and the last half of the third book.

To Kill A Mockingbird is quaint, especially how the arc of the book is that the enlightened white man saves the poor black man.

Different strokes for different folks?

@Val123: Can you be more specific about what you didn’t like about it?

@nikipedia Well, from what I read it just seemed to be a lot of disassociated, unclear stream of consciousness thoughts. Granted, I didn’t stick with it long enough to see if it ever got all pulled together, but it was just so….kind of dreamy. I don’t like one word sentences, for one thing, as she had a lot of those, and a lot of half sentences. It just seemed like somebody’d been smokin’! And out of that haze of pot smoke suddenly swam a group of normal Japanese tourists. That was disconcerting. From what I could gather, whatever happened had happened quite recently. She was old enough to have been a mother before whatever, but still young enough to be sexually attractive, so I’m thinking within the last five years. I can’t help but think that if the rest of the world somehow managed to stay sane, that one of the surviving superpowers would have taken us over! But…IDK. Is it worth finishing?

@Val123: I definitely think so. It seemed to me that “dreaminess” was intentional. The narrator manages to recreate the sense of confusion, ambiguity, and loss of control that the characters were experiencing…one of the more brilliant aspects of the book, I thought :)

@nikipedia Alright…I’m goin’ back in!

@Val123 so you didn’t like it? so what? one parent’s opinion shouldn’t change curriculum (unless of course they’re forcing creationism in the science class…then parents should step in because their kids are not being provided with facts…so that’s a different issue)

@Simone_De_Beauvoir No, I didn’t like it! What does that have to do with anything? Do you honestly think I would try to force a teacher to only assign literature that I “like” to his or her students? That wasn’t the original issue. There was concern on the part of one of the parents that it contained sexual content that she felt was inappropriate for the age group. In a situation like that then, yes, I think parents should step in if they feel strongly enough about it, or anything that may “hurt” their kids. When my daughter was in 2nd grade her idiot of a teacher had them watch Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Yeah, where they eat monkey brains and all that. My daughter was having nightmares. I pitched a fit. Actually, I pulled her out of public schools altogether.

Seriously, Temple of Doom? I agree, the teacher is an idiot. Raiders of the Lost Ark is far superior. And every second-grader should see the face-melting scene.

@Val123 I just don’t see what the solution would be that would be beneficial to the child – so a mother has a concern over the book…she doesn’t want her kid to read it…what is she supposed to do? tell the teacher her child will not be doing the assignments?...instead…she should still discuss the book with the child and explain why it makes her uncomfortable…because really when it came to your child and your child was having nightmares, then I understand…but was Nina’s kid having nightmares about this book?...there is a lot of stupidity going on in schools, there are a lot of bad teachers but there are also a lot of stupid decisions that parents make…that are not beneficial to their children…

@Qingu LOL! Or Silence of the Lamb!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Nina’s kids are still little. It was a friend of hers, and I don’t know the person at all. Sure, all parents make bad decisions at some time or another, but I think that a parent expressing concern, whether it’s misled concern in your opinion, is better than a parent showing no interest in what’s going on in their child’s life.
I do agree with you that some parents can go overboard and throw fits over small things, but I have yet to read the book, so IDK on this one.

@Val123 showing concern is always better than not showing concern but it still doesn’t mean it’s the right thing…it’s kind of like saying that hurting someone a bit is better than murdering them but you still don’t want either…because it all depends on the concern, where it stems from, etc…so many parents transfer their issues onto their kids

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Sure we do. We all do! You just try to do the wisest thing you can. Do self checks every so often to determine exactly what your motivations are, and change what needs to be changed. As I said, I haven’t read the book, so I don’t know if I would share her concerns or not.

Just finished the book. My personal verdict is in. It sucked. Left too many logical questions unanswered, which gave it a serious lack of credibility, in my opinion. To me it was nothing but a great big, rambling poem with no real thought put into it. Poems don’t need any research, just a wandering mind. She didn’t seem to plan it out ahead of time, and consequently found herself suddenly in situations that she had to explain.

For example, I’m reading, wondering “Where the hell is the US government.” Then, it’s like someone reading the manuscript asked the same thing, because suddenly, there it is, one convenient catch-all sentence. “The president was assassinated, and all of Congress was machine-gunned.” End of of story, back to rambling.

Some open questions, for me were:
* How did this society come about only in Massachusetts? (apparently if they could make it to the border of Maine they’d be OK)
*How did this happen to the main character with little to no warning?
* Why weren’t there any warning signs except within the three weeks before she was taken?
* Where was the description of the chaos and panic of losing our “whole” government” (which can’t happen, of course, as Tom Clancy showed us clearly in “Executive Orders” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Orders) in one fell swoop?
* Where the hell did Japanese tourists come in? (I’d think the Japanese would be coming in simply to take us over.)
* Why were there suddenly free Quakers with two children (fertile women being such a precious commodity that they’re enslaved) living in the middle of this shit, and they’re just left alone?
* Why didn’t the fact that the population was running in the negative numbers, and having children was becoming rare, make any impression on her in her life Before Crap?

It was just silly, IMO. Not the concept, but literary style, and lack of thought and logic.

i read the book as a teen and loved it , was one of my favorite books for years, it wasnt the sex that intertested me but the fight of offred(the main character) against her captors. I think the context of the sex is the important thing the differnce between making love and obligatory sex , its an amazing read…..i think that giving this type of book to teens would certainly create more discussion about sex in the real world and be beneficial to all that read it, kudos for your friend for taking an interest in their childs reading but they should read the whole thing and maybe discuss the reasons for reading the book with their childs teacher….

@Val123 I don’t think this particular novel had to be all sorts of accurate all of a sudden as to the real world and its events…it’s called poetic license

@Simone_De_Beauvoir MAJOR poetic license. It was just frustrating that she didn’t take the time to really sit down and put some thought into the settings, the times, the places. Plus she had an unnerving habit of suddenly inserting half-baked explanations of things that were occurring that didn’t make sense in the context of the world she was scribbling out. The Quaker family, for example….it’s like she didn’t plot ANYTHING out. Just wrote whatever came out of her head. It just wasn’t one of those books that make you want to to OMG!!!! How horrible! It was more like, “Are we done rambling yet?” But, that’s just my opinion.

I wouldn’t be upset if my 17, 18 year old was assigned to read the book, except for the fact that it’s a total waste of time. “Sacajawea” is a far better example of the subjection of women, and the incredible strength of women. IT will make you say, “OMG!” Plus teach some fascinating history in the process. Have you ever read it Simone? I think you would really, really like it….

@Val123 The beauty of this is that high school students are exposed to a variety of styles. This book was obviously not your taste but I’m sure you recognize that yours is not the only taste and your preferences should not be imposed on the rest of us.

When I was a freshman in college, I was assigned a futuristic novel “Ecotopia” which described a culture that was self-sustaining and green. From the book:

”...if you reflect on our change from thoughtless trash-tossing to virtually universal recycling, or from the past in which smokers didn’t hesitate to blow smoke in anybody’s face to our present restrictions on smoking in public places, it’s clear that shared ideas about acceptable or desirable behavior can change markedly. Such changes occurred without anybody getting arrested in the dark of night. Further changes will come”

Published in 1975 it described a tecnological and entertainment future that did arise 2 decades later. At the time I said about the society predicted “I can’t believe that will ever happen” Today I say “I can’t believe that actually happened” The saving grace is the some of the majority values in the novel are today minority values-but who knows for future generations. On the other hand attitudes about smoking and trash did come about. As much as I didn’t care for the book’s style, it did provide for lively discussion that encouraged people to think beyond their safe little boxes-as does “A Handmaiden’s Tale”

@galileogirl What is the line between expressing my opinion and “imposing” my preferences on other people? Could you clarify please, because I’m a little confused.

The passage you selected to share with me is a perfect example of the kind of creative thoughtfulness that I wish the author of “Handmaid” had done. (However, I can tell you from experience that the smoking issue and the littering issues were coming to the forefront as of 1975, so that wasn’t necessarily wild speculation)....but the passage was written in a believable way that allowed you to feel like it was real in the current day. Issac Asimov is a master at projecting the reader hundreds of years into the future,and make the person feel that they are really there, and everything he describes is really feasible. Shoot. Our own Matt Browne sends us 40,000 years into the future in a believable way.

“Handmaid” just didn’t have that feel of believability like that. I wish the book rewritten in such a way that it doesn’t leave obvious questions unanswered. I wish it could be written so that the reader can’t help but say, “OMG!!!” The concept has valuable potential. I don’t disagree with that. I just wish it had been handled better.

As far as provoking a lively discussion…it has done that! If not in the usual way!

@Val123 I actually said ” I’m sure you recognize,,,your preferences should not be imposed on the rest of us.” , which is the OPPOSITE of saying you are imposing your preferences.

I can also tell you from having lived through the 70’s that the idea of smoking even in elevators and movie theaters were accepted and smoking in open office areas and restaurants in San Francisco was’t even banned til the mid 80’s and statewide until 1995. So they may have been topics in the early 70’s (just as anti-slavery was an issue for some in the 1700’s. it wasn’t a foregone conclusion until we went to war) nobody ever thought there would be smoking bans in ones own home or mandated recycling of food scraps. Ecotopia also foretold the downloading books while just walking down the street (Kindle) a decade before the PC existed.

I can tell you that the social structures in Ecotopia are unbelievable for the nation as a whole but that doesn;t mean they shouldn’t be open for discussion. And the discussion I was referring to was among young people, who as a teacher I can tell you, are not that interested in talking about intellectual issues as much as who likes or hates who, what to wear to the prom or who is going to win the Super Bowl or American Idol. You have to get their interest and Dickens doesn;t do it any more.

@Val123: Have you considered that maybe the author did “take the time to really sit down and put some thought into the settings, the times, the places” but kept the knowledge to herself specifically in order to create feelings of disorientation and chaos for the reader? If everything is spelled out for you and you aren’t made to consider how things may have come about, where’s the fun? Do you want a history of the society, or a story about how people are dealing with how it is now?

@galileogirl You lost me on the preferences references! But no matter.

I know that in the 70’s and even in to the 80’s smoking in elevators, and even in airplanes was acceptable! The planes even had ash trays in the arms of the chairs (I always get a little hinky when I’m on a plane that still has the ashtrays!) However, as an example, when I was in college my first year, in 1977, we were allowed to smoke in the Student Union. We were watching MASH, and I lit up and some guy in front of me turned around, gave me a totally nasty, dirty look, then turned back and started fanning his face with his hand. I, of course, immediately put the cigarette out….but the guy continued to fan his face for at least 15 minutes, which simply told me he was full of crap! So…it was on people’s minds.

From your description of “Ecotopia” it sounds like a book I’d like to read. I’ll have to check it out.

@MacBean But she gave us absolutely nothing to work with, absolutely no hint that would allow us to figure out how it could have happened, not only that, but apparently only in the state of Massachusetts. Nothing for your imagination to build on.

I think a believable history of a society, even if it’s only decently hinted at, is important in order to understand the overall setting. I just can’t see how that society could have come about, full fledged, in a matter of three weeks. She gives us no clue as to how that could happen. No clue, really, as to what was going on in the time before, except that the birthrate was declining…but even that was apparently no big deal to her in the time before because she turned her back on her 11 month old daughter in the grocery store, and the child was almost abducted!

A few times the tripped herself up, IMO, by inserting things that were completely out of context in the setting, and then suddenly inserting a very brief and implausible explanation for whatever.

@Val123: I don’t know, maybe my imagination built on it so much that I created a whole different book or something. Because while I remember Offred was living in Cambridge, I don’t recall MA being the only place where this society had taken hold, and I also don’t recall it happening that quickly. I’m also possibly influenced by Children of Men, which has similar themes, and which I’ve read recently, as opposed to ten years ago.

@MacBean I only figured out MA because at one point one of the women escaped, and was walking down “Mass Boulevard” for a while. And following is one of those….crazy, makes no sense in the context of the society she’s trying to create.

One of the women escaped, and found her way, on foot, in just a few hours, to a Quaker household where the the married couple have TWO CHILDREN!!! Apparently they’re allowed to live in peace for some reason while other Quakers are killed and all other fertile women are enslaved for breeding purposes. Everybody but them?

Not only that, they have…you guessed it….an underground railroad to get the women out! So this girl that had escaped almost made it to the border of Maine, where she would have been safe.

Further, she notes that sometimes one of the checkpoints gets busted. Sorry..in that society, if it was at all believable, ) I would assume the discovery of ONE Quaker underground railroad would have meant death to ALL Quakers.

That whole thing makes NO sense.

@Val123: We read this book in my 9th grade English class, and I remember the types of questions you’re bringing up being asked in class, but we always found the answers that made them make sense. I wish I still had a copy; I’d do a quick re-read because I’m sure I could at least help you make sense of it, even if you still don’t actually like it. I wonder if the Wikipedia article about it might help? Especially the “Social Groups” and “Themes” sections, I would think.

Well, she always quickly came up with a pat answer almost as though someone reading the manuscript said, “Wait a minute! What about this!” because a page later you’d have a throw away sentence that was supposed to explain it.

Like, at one point, before I even realized in was limited to MA, I was going…“Where in the hell is the US government??” Sure enough, someone else must have asked the same question, because on the next page was the “explanation” “The president was assassinated and all of congress was machine gunned.” End of story! Crazy! You can’t destroy a government as powerful as ours in that manner! Have you read Tom Clancy’s Executive Order?

Thanks for the link….However, even they don’t seem to be sure what’s going on! is set in the Republic of Gilead, a country formed within the borders of what was formerly the United States of America

First, unless I miss something, the word Gilead was only referred to once, in one of the last chapters, and it was mentioned as part of a Bible verse they were reading. I don’t recall the society ever actually being given a name. Again, I may have missed it…

2nd, as I said, the author had that one woman escaping and it notes that if she could make it to Maine she’d be safe, so, for me, that discounts the concept that it involved the entire US.

I uh, have this same debate raging on another thread! One of my friends posted this link…

According to the searchable copy at Amazon,

I didn’t use the search thing..just paged through the book..

@Val123 I really see your personal criticism of the author’s style as irrelevant to your original discussion…you’re not even an author yourself and this is all speculation on your part…what we’re talking about is whether or not this is an appropriate text for a senior in high school which even you decided that it is…sooooo, case closed.

@Val123 I understand about your preference for a very plain style of writing if you can’t navigate through compound or complex declarative sentences. I’ll try to make it simpler.

1. I told you about a book with similar style and subject to AHT

2, Without having read the book you claim I am wrong about some of the topics and turn a statement I made 180* to make it an insult

3. I point out it was the opposite of your perceived insult. I also pointed out your on the horizon claims occurred a generation later and were never sure things.

4. You claimed complete confusion.

Maybe you should stick to less challenging reading matter.
I agree with Simone. Do you have a problem with the subject or the style?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir That does take it to another level. What is the purpose for a lit class? It’s to teach the profound impact that the written word can have. When you throw a poorly thought-out book like that at the kids, tell them it’s a great piece of work, whether they think so or not, and then encourage them to find nothing more than made up possibilities, poor justifications, to logical questions, well, that’s defeating the whole purpose of introducing them to literature. .@mcbean said, I remember the types of questions you’re bringing up being asked in class, but we always found the answers that made them make sense. To me it’s almost like telling them that their perceptions are wrong, because there are no answers given by the author that makes sense of the inconsistencies in the book.

So, to that end, I don’t think the concept was inappropriate. I just have issue with the fact that this is NOT a great piece of literature, IMO.

@Val123…iyo, that’s the whole point…it’s your opinion…many of us have thought it was a great piece of literature and we’re just as knowledgeable

@galileogirl What? I am interested in reading the book, “Ecotopia,” which you brought up! Where did you see an insult in my responses to you in that? I appreciate believable fiction.

Also you said, ”....your preferences should not be imposed on the rest of us.” And then you told me you that that actually meant that I was not trying to impose my preferences on you….? Anyway, I thought we’d just let that one go…..

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I appreciate that. I’m not trying to change anyone’s mind, just as I don’t feel you’re trying to change my mind. I’m making my points, you guys are making yours. That’s what makes the world go ‘round.

@Val123 For the second time——I actually said ” I’m sure you recognize,,,your preferences should not be imposed on the rest of us.” , which is the OPPOSITE of saying you are imposing your preferences.

That business of using a phrase instead of a complete statement is the height of anti-intellectual cheesiness…WAIT A MINUTE…are you a Fox News commentator?

I guess that….encouraging a 9th or 10th or 12th grader to believe that the US government could actually be destroyed simply by “Assassinating the president and machine gunning all of congress” is about like insisting to a small child that the Easter Bunny (Or Santa or Jesus…take your pick) is real….we’re supposed to be fostering critical thinking, not unquestioning acceptance.

OK. So do you feel I am, or I am not, “imposing” my preference upon you? What was the point of the comment?

@Val123 the point, apparently, was to make the world go around

@Simone_De_Beauvoir It’s goin’

@Val123: Why exactly is “the president was assassinated and Congress was gunned down” an unacceptable explanation, anyway? It’s obviously not important to know the details, since the author deliberately chose not to divulge them, and it’s not completely outlandish. Older and stronger governments than ours have been felled in very short periods of time. “The palace was stormed and the king & queen were put to death” is an accurate description of the French Revolution…

Hm. Just to recap the discussion, the OP has moved from disliking Handmaid’s Tale due to graphic depictions of rape, to disliking it because of an unrealistic/insufficiently rationalized sci-fi setting?

I can get behind that. Arbitrary, illogical sci-fi/fantasy settings piss me off to no end. This is why, for example, I am unable to watch Dr. Who. In fact, I would support a law banning Dr. Who for HS seniors. And everyone else. I’m sorry, EP. You know I love you.

Bring that you’re on the internet now I can safely assume you’re aware of it.

Trust me, kids know more about the internet and how to use it and can google far more disturbing things than Margaret Atwood can write about.

Approaching these topics in an educational manner is the very best thing that can be done. Because I promise you, real porn involving the same subject matter with no context can be far more devastating than a little intellectual discourse.

And I’m shocked your friend can’t figure that out.

Let the kids read the fucking books.

I’m curious to know what grade and subject you teach, @Val123.

“A Handmaid’s Tale” happens to be one of my favorite books. I read it my senior year of high school, and it was required reading, at least for my AP English class. And actually it is one of the books that my mother required all of her daughters to read.
It may address some strong subjects, but it wasn’t the only book I was required to read that included those themes. I also think it is important to look at the historical context in which the book was written. It explains a lot about how the book conceived and what exactly Atwood was trying to say with it.

Having now read the entirety of this thread, I have only one thought left for it.

I am now completely and utterly terrified that someday people such as yourself may be ‘educating’ my children.

That is unacceptable.

Shit. The book is shorter than this thread.

I think it’s evident that the book has the ability to spark discussion. And that’s exactly what a book that is read in a high school English class should do.

@petethepothead an excellent point!

@asmonet I’m not alone in my concerns over the quality of the book. A criteque of the book by Mary McCarthy of the New York Times Book Review (died 1987) had the very same concerns that I had with the story…that it was all too pat, too convenient and not well thought out. (All bolding below is mine)

“Yet, several critics voiced a disbelief in the basic assumptions of The Handmaid’s Tale. Mary McCarthy, in her review for the New York Times Book Review, complained that “I just can’t see the intolerance of the far right… as leading to a super-biblical puritanism.” And although acknowledging that “the author has carefully drawn her projections from current trends,” McCarthy asserted that “perhaps that is the trouble: the projections are too neatly penciled in. The details… all raise their hands announcing them-selves present. At the same time, the Republic of Gilead itself, whatever in it that is not a projection, is insufficiently imagined.”

Also, in that same paragraph, Richard Grenier who was a neoconservative cultural columnist for The Washington Times, said the following (regarding a concern of lack of believability that I had…) (He) “observed that the Fundamentalist-run Gilead does not seem Christian: “There seems to be no Father, no Son, no Holy Ghost, no apparent belief in redemp-tion, resurrection, eternal life. No one in this excruciatingly hierarchized new clerical state… appears to believe in God.” Grenier also found it improbable that “while the United States has hurtled off into this morbid, feminist nightmare, the rest of the democratic world has been blissfully unaffected.”

http://www.library.pima.gov/books/caboodle/guides/atwood-handmaids-bio.pdf (See page four)

I’d say I’m in pretty decent company, @asmonet. You say you wouldn’t want a teacher who thinks for themselves to teach your kids? You wouldn’t want a teacher who would encourage the kids to think for themselves? You’d prefer someone who would rather just fall in line with what appears to be the majority?

If I had a lit class, and wished to address women’s issues, I’d like to assign Sacajawea by Anna Lee Waldo, although…it’d be probably too much for much of the class. It took Ms. Waldo ten years to write the book, and it was a powerful commentary on the subjection of women (For example, Sacajawea’s fist husband gambled her away to an abusive, nasty French man) and yet the incredible strength the woman had (Lewis and Clark probably wouldn’t have made it if it wasn’t for her.)

By contrast, I read that Atwood first got he idea for “Handmaiden” in 1981 but “put it off for years.” Well, she published it just four years later! So, after putting it off for “years” did she spend a whole month dashing it off?

@Val123 lol, Richard Grenier? really…because that guy clearly has no agenda

@MacBean Per “The President was assassinated and Congress was machine gunned.” Why do I have a problem with it? What do you say when a kid says, “Could the government really be destroyed that way?” Well…of course not! Not with the checks and balances, and chain of command we have in place. Whomever succeeded the President would still have control of the nation’s militia. It was just another example of one of those pat, convenient throw away lines (as Mary McCarthy above said, “The details… all raise their hands announcing them-selves present”.) It’s as though somebody reading the manuscript said, “Wait a minute!” and so Atwood just tossed that in.

If you had an overview and an understanding of all of the intricacies of the French Revolution, then sure. If you want to sum it up that way, the final coup was the King and Queen being gunned down. But I certainly wouldn’t use that as my whole explanation of the French Revolution! I think the fall of the government was crucial, and deserved more thought and attention.

Further, the French Monarchy was not set up the way the US Government is. It would naturally fall to pieces over the fighting of who is going to succeed the King/Queen.

PS @MacBean I do stand corrected on a couple of things. Apparently the US is involved, not just MA. As I was researching back through, at the beginning of the book it notes that escaped girl made it to Maine before she was captured. She was trying to get to Canada where it’s safe. Shades of Vietnam. And also rather unrealistic, IMO.
Also, in the News program the character watched one time, there was a one-time mention of North Dakota and Michigan. It’s like, whatever you do don’t blink!

@petethepothead :) Yep!!

@astro chuck….don’t ya wanna just run out and read it??! LOL!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir The first I heard of Richard Grenier was today, during my research, so I’m not sure what you mean by he “has no agenda.” What do you know of him? All I know is what I read in Widipedia, that he was born in 1933, died in 2002, and was best known for his review on the film “Gandhi.” So…not sure what you mean.

@Val123 I have no clue who he is but just by reading the excerpt you provided, I can see he is biased…shall we say…into a religious direction?

For the record, I want a teacher that engages students without boring them with characters they’ve known since the fifth grade. Empowering though she may be, their eyes will glaze over before you finish telling them the title.

I want a teacher who can inspire and change with the times! One who is still in touch with the same world teenagers not only see but identify themselves by.

And one who can fucking respect their intelligence, maturity and their thirst for understanding.

So no, I don’t want you.

You may well be able to achieve some of those ideals but frankly, that’s not what you’ve show me here.

@Grisaille I have a degree in Education. I hoped to get a permanent teaching position quickly, but…best laid plans and all that. In pursuit of a position I focused all of my efforts into substitute teaching, which I did full time, and professionally for three years. Then, sort of out of the blue, I was offered a well paying, administrative position with Rubbermaid. As a single mom, it was pretty much a no-brainer that I had to accept it, and I left teaching. So, long story short, I’ve taught all grades, from Pre-K to advanced HS Biology, and that includes, of course, many HS Lit classes.

So, you taught. Occasionally, over three years?

Perhaps more constant contact with the same students might allow you a better chance to evaluate their maturity and intellect.

You have to earn their trust and respect before they turn off the bullshit idiot teen persona they’ve cultivated for show over the last decade. I was one of them.

And everyone knows it’s time to play when the sub is in. You can’t really expect them to show you what they’re capable of when to a lot of them your very job description is an invitation to misbehave.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir—Hm..I didn’t see it that way. I just assumed he was familiar with the most basic foundation of Christianity…redemption, salvation, etc. I don’t think knowing the foundations of a particular religion is an indication that a person is particularly religious. I could discuss the foundation of Buddhism, but that doesn’t mean I’m a Buddhist or particularly religious. But he does make a good point…in this insanely “Christian”, supposedly God-base society, God is conspicuously absent. As to Grieniers particular beliefs….I don’t know that it’s important. Do you think it would be important?

@asmonet Of course the reviews are “years and years old.” The book is years and years old!

And no one knows better than me that the kids think it’s time to play when the sub is in! I get that shut down in the first 15 minutes of class. And when I go back into the same classroom a second time, which was often, there was no repeat by the kids.

I didn’t teach “occasionally.” I taught full time. Five days a week. For three full years. I was a single Mom, and I supported myself and four kids solely on substitute teaching.

Also, I do “respect their intelligence, maturity and their thirst for understanding” which is why I’d never insult their intelligence with such drivel as “A Handmaid’s tale.”

So what age do you feel is appropriate for someone to read that book?

@rangerr Actually, when I posted the question, I hadn’t even read the book myself! It just kind of took off, though, and I decided I’d best read it before I commented anymore. So the thread took a sharp U-turn in a different direction after I’d read it, and that’s not even the issue any more!

If a teacher assigned the book to my HS kid, my biggest complaint would be about the poor quality of the writing. I would expect a lit teacher to assign HIGH quality books. I don’t think the sexual references are the big, huge deal that my friend’s friend made them out to be. However, it would bother me that my kids would have to read the few graphic sexual details there were for…nothing, because the book is nothing, IMO. (However, I have a feeling that in the more prudish 80’s, when the book was written, the sex may have been the very reason the book caught on the way it did! “OMG! She talks about…about…about the sex act!! Right out in the open!!

Have you read it? What are your thoughts, if you have?

To any one who’s still interested, just came across this in a new post. Quite interesting as it applies to this discussion!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

So first you were complaining about the content of the book, now it’s the quality?
I’m so confused.

@rangerr Well, it wasn’t exactly me who was complaining about the content, because I hadn’t read it. It was a friend of a friend who was really super bent out of shape over the content, and I was trying to get a feel for if other’s felt the same way…if it was a legitimate complaint. Well,then I read it, and yes. After having read it, it’s not the content, not even the premise that I take issue with, it’s with the quality.

I was going to start a new thread but….I wasn’t sure how that would be received, so I didn’t, and now I wish I had!

@rangerr: I haven’t seen a good reason. She says she doesn’t want it to be required reading for her children, based on her own opinions about first content – which was rescinded sort of and switched to it’s author’s lack of talent.

That’s a bit silly.

And really, @Val123? The 80s were prudish? Where were you?

We thought most of the books we read in high school sucked.. can we ban those too?

@asmonet Might re-read the original question. The first sentence in the detail specifies “A friend of a friend said her daughter was given the assignment.” I had no opinion about the content because I hadn’t read it. I wanted to know if there were others who felt the same way. Then I read the book, and my concerns changed.

Well, I was a born-again Christian during the 80’s, and man. Was there a lot of paranoia about…stuff flying around! Many of my friends thought Rush Limbaugh was…a prophet of some sort. I thought he was a wacko! (Still do.) I took most of gloom and doom with a grain of salt, but I can’t help but wonder if some Christian fundamentalist of the time got their hands on it and flipped out…and that actually got the ball rolling! I wouldn’t be surprised, given the attitudes then! I don’t know what the majority Christian religious worries about society’s downfall are today.

@rangerr LOL! Well, if enough of you guys have really good reasons why the book shouldn’t be assigned, I’d sure consider not assigning it! Do you have some “for examples”? (Hmmmm. You do know I am now considering that each and every one in the class shall be assigned to write a five page, reasonable and logical critique of whatever book, and it’ll be your fault! HA HA!!)

All of them.

I read your posts, and you agreed the content was unacceptable at times. You did take on the position of your friend for a while, perhaps less passionately – but you did nonetheless.

Let me go look @asmonet…..Ok, all I said in possible agreement was that “from what it sounds like (based on my friend’s friend’s description)....it was totally inappropriate to “force” the kids to read something like that.” If you read the take the friend’s friend had on it…basically it was porn and rape and stuff….then it really does sound like something inappropriate. Just wondered what others thought about it.

If someone came to you with a description like that, wouldn’t you say it sounded inappropriate on just those factst?

@rangerr Pick one. Just one!

The Crucible. Fxcking hated reading that.

@Val123: Actually, I’d probably tell them I thought they were exaggerating and shut my yap until I had my own opinion to go on. But that’s me.

@asmonet With hindsight, I have to absolutely agree with you. With hindsight, I would have started a new thread.
House is on…gotta go! I’ll look into the “Crucible” when I get back, @rangerr. I don’t recall reading it….I would assign “The Scarlet Letter” tho…you ever have to read that…?

A Handmaid’s Tale seems to be widely described as feminist dystopic fiction. I found this explanation of dystopia as a genre to be very apropos.

Dystopias are a kind of thought experiment which isolates certain social trends and exaggerates them to make clear their most negative qualities. They are rarely intended as realistic predictions of a probable future, and it is pointless to criticize them on the grounds of implausibility.

I have to say I enjoyed the book when I read it, but tend to think of it as a cautionary parable. @Val123, maybe dystopias just aren’t your cup of tea. Doesn’t mean the dystopic vision wouldn’t generate a meaningful discussion.

@MagsRags Any well written books of any genre can be my cup of tea, including well written dystopias. I remember being impressed by Orwells 1984. The book was written in 1949 and did a magnificent job of projecting possibilities…the cameras watching everyone, Big Brother—35 years into the future. That’s a feat of seriously thoughtful, and plausible, imagination…I need to read it again. (I have a whole list of books I need to read, or re-read, and it just keeps getting longer….) “Handmaid” just didn’t come off as plausible to me.

I think the biggest problem here is your inability to admit that there’s a difference between opinion and fact. It is your opinion it is not well written, that does not make it fact.

Let’s review:

”...it is pointless to criticize them on the grounds of implausibility.”

And your response:

“Handmaid” just didn’t come off as plausible to me.

…What?

@asmonet It is absolutely my opinion and I never claimed it as a fact, apparent to all. But saying ”...it is pointless to criticize them on the grounds of implausibility”…is incorrect. The biggest rule in writing fiction…you have to be able to “suspend disbelief” for the reader. You have to catch the reader up and make them think, even against their better knowledge, that this CAN happen. I mean, how many times have you or your friends said, about a poorly made movie, something like, “That was stupid!” It’s stupid because the creator didn’t convince you it could happen they way he or she said. I believe it is possible to write the same scenario presented in “Handmaid” in a believable way, but she didn’t do that, IMO.
From the following link (which was just the first that came up when I Googled “Rules of writing fiction”)
”The setting should be described in specifics to make the story seem real, to set the atmosphere and mood of the story, to place limitations on the characters, or to help establish the basic conflict of the story.” The specifics are exactly what she was lacking. It was too loosey-goosey.
If you Google it, you’ll come up with variations on that everywhere.

http://www.homepages.dsu.edu/JANKEJ/writing/tips.htm

after sort of reading through this thread, ( I read this book at about age 11) I think any parent raising any concerns about assigned reading… well, I would just think I’m in the wrong town.

@trailsillustrated I agree..the content isn’t traumatizing or pornographic (as my friend’s friend said). But….it’s just not what I, in my opinion, would consider a classic, and I wouldn’t assign it to my class. The writing style is sub par, IMO. There are far better examples of “great literature” out there than that book.

There’s so much wrong, I can’t even begin commenting on your last post to me.

Please, if you intend on teaching again – take some refresher courses in Lit.

And if you think you can do better at writing the story, please go ahead! I would love to get my hands on it – if it’s better. I eagerly await my next book by the famous Margaret Atwood Val123.

@asmonet I guess I could put the ball back in your court…you feel it’s great literature. And what qualifies you to make that determination?

@asmonet: Might as well give up. Obviously, since she can’t make sense of it and doesn’t like it, all of us are the problem.

@MacBean no I like it…@asmonet’s got stamina!

I made sense of it, @McBean. I understand what she was trying to say, and it could have been an interesting social statement had it been written with more thought and attention to detail. However, it totally lacked reality, in my opinion. I didn’t feel like “Wow! This could actually happen!” Unlike Orwells “1984” which does leave one feeling like that.

@asmonet seemed to want to know my qualifications were for making my own personal decision in deciding whether I liked the book or not, so I tossed the ball back. I’m just not one to jump on a bandwagon because a bunch of other people are on it. I decide things for myself.

Anyway, getting ready to go to the library. Have a boat load of books to check out. I think I’ll start with “Ectopia” and “Galapagos” by Vonnegut. I think two at a time should do it or I’ll start losing them around the house.

@Val123: I actually never made any claim on the quality of the book. But thanks for telling me how I felt! It’s so much easier when you tell me what to think. :)

Perhaps, some reading comprehension lessons are in order as well?

@MacBean / @Simone_De_Beauvoir: Sorry, darlings. I can’t wrap my head around some people for long without hurting my brain. I’m not that masochistic.

@asmonet okay, you need relief…please go here to laugh your ass off…seriously
www.regretsy.com

@Simone_De_Beauvoir woah, Etsy at it’s finest.~

I don’t think it’s just about the quality of the writing. I suspect we might each have our own personal bias about the plausibility of dystopian fiction based on our personal belief systems and backgrounds. A female libertarian atheist would probably find Handmaid’s Tale totally plausible, while a conservative Mormon male would completely reject the entire premise. The rest of us would range between.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: You just made my afternoon. :D

@MagsRags: Perhaps. Personally, I don’t care if it’s plausible or not. I take books like that as their own little bubble. An idea not to be compared with the life I know unless it is specifically the point of the work. And I was under the impression that dystopian stories are meant to be seen that way.

@asmonet so I’m sayin’!!!

@asmonet I agree – fiction, imho, doesn’t need to be plausible

@asmonet Could you please clarify where I told you how you felt?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Really? Well, I’m getting ready to dive into Vonnegut’s “Galapagos.” From what I’ve heard it’s pretty far reaching so it should be interesting to see how he deals with his subject….it’ll be interesting to see if he can “suspend disbelief.”

@Val123: I’m MACBean, btw. There is also a McBean on Fluther. She is awesome, but not me.

@MacBean Thanks. You know you Irish are all alike! :)

…

@asmonet I see what you meant…you never said whether you liked the book or not. So..what exactly is it you’re upset about? Because I would not assign it as required reading, and some teachers (not all…some) would? Are you angry because I didn’t like the book? What exactly are you angry about?