Can I have help on friendship problems?

She has gone to the dark side. Some girls like to conform out of insecurity. The popular group offers admiration, ego stroking, and (sometimes) base pleasures. She might have been envious of them and chosen to leap at the opportunity to join the group she considers “superior” or more fun in some way. I think it’s best to let go. If you fight for her friendship, she might misinterpret or react badly and reject you more agressively to show loyalty, or because she’s embarrassed in some way. That might cause a greater rift than this (relatively) slow drift. She’s trying to figure out what femininity means to her, hence the dress-up and increased interest in boys. If she realizes how silly and superficial the popular kids are, and remembers that she’s really a fun-loving dork at heart, (although it’s possible she won’t) she’ll come back. Very sad though. I’d say try to mingle with the rest of your group, as hard as it may be.

@Beta_Orionis Said it all. Some girls will be friends for life. Some won’t.

Have you tried to keep up with her interests or are you only expecting her to keep up with yours?

Do I need to keep up with her interests?

It is very sad that the two of you have grown apart, but it is also very common. We all change as we get older, and it sounds like she has chosen to go down a road you have no interest in. Maybe someday your paths will cross again and you can be close like before. But please, don’t allow yourself to chase after her. It is up to her to decide if she wants to go forward with her new crowd or return to the “dorks”.

@laaaa No. Follow your own interests. If they don’t align, then you won’t get along. Friendships are pretty natural. You shouldn’t have to change yourself to be friends with someone. It sounds as though following the interests of another is exactly what you’re friend is doing.

So, I should find another girl that has the same interests as me?

Give her time.
I was in the same situation at what I’m guessing is your age. I let her go and became closer with my other friends. By the end of high school she had figured things out, and was ready to be my friend again. We are now in college and as close as we were as kids, even though there was a big gap in our friendship.

@laaaa Yeah! Well, I’m not so sure “find” is the right word. Sometimes it’s hard to track someone down and be friends with them. If you’re friendly, nice, and true to yourself, someone else with similar interests will notice you and befriend you. Or you can do the same with someone else. Notice that so-and-so seems like an interesting person, and start a conversation. Things like that. Don’t be too sad if you don’t find a new best friend very quickly though. Some things just take time.

@laaaa Do I need to keep up with her interests?

YES

that’s how relationships grow, by creating new history together. that’s why she’s having so much fun with this other person: because they’re getting along together.

mind you, there’s no reason to ignore the fact that your relationship is in fact growing. it will never end. it’s simply changing. i’d say, don’t try to preserve the past especially if the past isn’t fun anymore (which is what your friend obviously feels) simply strive to create new bright futures. whether those be with her or with new people.. just never forget that you have to invest in other people’s interests. Showing interest in others is crucial for “good human” rankings.

oh.. and don’t forget to judge others by how much interest they show back. ;)

so your saying that I should keep up with them, but only if they show that they care?

doesn’t have to be them specifically.. really, anyone who you want to keep around for a while. but start with showing interest first.

show interest in them, help them with their goals, tell them your experiences, tell them your goals. do what you can for others and see how they give back. if they don’t give back to you as much as you would like, diversify your friend base. but never burn bridges.

I agree with ninjacolin that you don’t have to be mean to your friend because she has changed, but you certainly should try to change yourself to make her happier either. If you would really like to heal the relationship, start by telling her what you have told us – that you feel like you are not as close as you used to be – and see if she can offer any solutions. This will also give you a good idea of how interested she is in continuing the friendship with you.

I would, however every time I try to talk to her, she is either making up exuses, or with her new friends. :(

She’s not actively cutting out her friend, the friend is ditching her!
There’s no meanness about the situation, there’s just a drifting apart.

@laaaa you should not have to change yourself to stay friends. That is not how strong friendships are formed. If she makes up excuses, it’s probably a gentle signal that she wants to spend more time with the other friends.

will do :)

^^^ yea, that’s why i don’t suggest starting with that. she’s busy right now having a good time. why would you want to interrupt that goodness in her life?

^^ do you really feel ditched, laaaa? or are you just not making yourself available?

the way it sounds to me, and only you would know, is that you are protesting the new friends and activities out of a bit of jealousy, rather than allowing a new clique and new activities to develop. i get the impression that you’re distancing yourself rather than being ditched.. which is it?

mind you, i always prefer to blame self before others..

@ninjacolin What if her friend’s interests are turning toward things, such a partying, maybe drugs, truancy, or just stuff @laaaa wouldn’t NEVER be “interested” in (I assume)

You really can’t do much but let it ride. You know, be available and friendly but, no, I don’t think you should have to change yourself or your interests. Well, unless you marry her!

Every time I try to contact her, apperently she tells her friends, because they always give me icy stares.

I know she goes out with them, but I don’t know about partying. (or drugs)
at least not that i know of.

blah! i hate all that “don’t change yourself” bullshit. it’s impossible not to be yourself. your interests are going to change regardless of what you do. friends are people who you deem worthy of allowing your interests to grow and evolve with.

if these people are being mean to you.. i don’t see why you would want to subject yourself to more of it. there are ways, however, to exploit opportunities to make people like you. if you think for some reason these people are worth your time “if only” you could be on their good side.. then get on their good side!

if you don’t like their characters, then decidedly move on to another group.

@laaaa Her friends give you ice stares? What kind of BS is that? I am SO glad I’m not in HS or MS any more. You just have to let it ride.

@ninjacolin It’s totally possible to be yourself! I’ve done it all of my life. You can’t make people like you! If you’re not actually interested in something, say you are, and make friends because of it, what happens when they find out? Or what about your lack of interest?

I’m all for growing and changing alongside friends, but strong friendships are not forced or exploited.

wrong. :P that’s the exact reason why your best friend is your best friend, because s/he has literally coerced you into that position by the way that they act toward you. if they acted differently, you wouldn’t like them the same way.

also.. what i said was: It’s impossible not to be yourself. Meaning: No matter what you do, you’re still being yourself.

@ninjacolin I disagree though. You don’t act differently in different situations if you’re being yourself. It carries through all actions. I agree that my best friend wouldn’t be that if he had acted differently, but the only way he could have acted differently is if he were a different person entirely.

Modifying your behavior to find yourself in someone’s good graces is not being yourself. That rules out your notion of “no matter what you do…”

Here’s my mod: No matter what you do, you are yourself, but you might not be being true to your Self.

sooo…um. I’m confused.

I’m sure. We’ve strayed a little from the topic. I apologize. What’s most confusing though?

yea, what’s to be confused about? lol

Nevermind, just about what you guys were talking about.

No! It’s okay, I’d be happy to explain. Questions are good things.

“You don’t act differently in different situations if you’re being yourself.”

If you’re being yourself.. YOU are the one acting differently. There is no way to escape being “yourself.” Whether you do or don’t.. YOU are the one doing or not doing.

YOU YOU YOU. There’s no escaping him/her.

So, forget about her? let new friends find me?

sure, why not?

will do then :)

@laaaa I wouldn’t say forget about her entirely, but try not to feel so bad or hold jealousy. If she realizes she misses your friendship, she’ll come back. If she doesn’t, there’s not much you can do about it. New friends are always good though. :)

thank you

I agree that my best friend wouldn’t be that if he had acted differently, but the only way he could have acted differently is if he were a different person entirely.

which is exactly what i was saying: it’s possible to do things in such a way that forces others to like you. just like your friend did to you.

“Modifying your behavior to find yourself in someone’s good graces is not being [true to] yourself.”

False. If you modify your behavior to find yourself in someone’s good graces.. you are being exactly true to yourself. You’re doing exactly what you want to do: find yourself in that person’s good graces!

@laaaa, don’t burn bridges though. just let it go. and stay pleasant when you see her.

ok. have to go now, but thank you guys for the advice!

@laaaa np, good luck!

@ninjacolin rar! I guess you just have malleable values then. You are okay with manipulation (without a negative conotation) and inconsistency to obtain favorable results, but my personality and actions are constant.

it’s like putting on a suit to go to a job interview.
why not just show up in sweats?

@ninjacolin That’s not the same thing. That’s not an aspect of your personality, that’s a uniform requirement.

Besides, If you’re applying to somewhere like Google, you’re welcome to wear whatever you feel is most comfortable. I like companies who appreciate me for who I am, not what I look like.

what i’m saying is: taking interest in the interests of others is a uniform requirement for the act of “getting along.”

@ninjacolin Why not just ignore those people? Or maintain a working relationship, but not a friendship?

if you only want a “working relationship” sure..
but if you want a friendship.. then you have to put more interest in!

@ninjacolin but that goes back to my thought about the nature of friendships. It would happen naturally.

whether you choose to take extra steps to make it work or not.. it’s still natural.

@ninjacolin but you shouldn’t have to make it work.

says who?

The nature of strong friendships.

those require compromise.

@ninjacolin How? I’ve never encountered excellent and long-lasting friends that have had to “work at” their relationship, or even had to “work” to come together as friends. No one I’ve known has compromised who they are to remain or become friends (with the strong friendships I’m talking about. Most people have casual or shallow friendships at some point.)

think about a husband and wife even who are having issues. husband likes to take walks but the wife likes to play videogames all day. you’re telling me, they should just break up and find new partners who enjoy the exact same things they do individually instead of finding a way to enjoy eachother’s interests together?

@ninjacolin If their divergent interests are causing a problem, there’s a bigger underlying issue. So maybe. But now you’ve moved friendships into another category of relationship. A category which has slightly different dynamics.

I have to agree with @ninjacolin somewhat on this one. People change and reinvent themselves all the time, especially in high school. Sometimes, the pendulum seems to swing too far in one direction, especially at first. If you’re on the B list, and all of a sudden find yourself in with the A list, then there is a seductive element to that, especially at first. It’s the glamor of something new and something coveted. (Like the Palin family shopping in Nieman Marcus for the first time, with an expense account.) Things can go a bit overboard. If your B list friends get mad at you for hanging with the A list, then the inclination is to shun those people. It’s easy to chalk the anger up to jealousy, and really turn your back on old friends. Staying nice and staying interested in what your friend is doing, even when you are feeling abandoned by them, is one way to keep the door open for the friend to return. Perhaps the superficiality or the work it takes to hang with popular kids will get old, and the friend will want to return to her nerdy roots. True friends give you a base to return to when you need to.

By the same token, the fact that the friend is making new friends is perhaps a sign that you should reach out and make your circle a little bigger. Meet some new people, get a little closer to people you know now but aren’t so close with. Join a new club at school, take a class. Cultivate some new interests of your own. If you only stick to what you know, you will never learn new things about yourself.

@PandoraBoxx My problem is not with general change of interests or reinvention, but doing so specifically to retain a friendship, adopting the interests and practices of another because you still want to relate to them.

@Beta_Orionis you are suggesting a quitting mentality. Happiness can be found by living that way, but you’re still sacrificing something by doing that. You’re sacrificing the opportunity for a deeper relationship with someone in exchange for the freedom to do only what you want.

@ninjacolin That’s not a quitting mentality. If something in a relationship is causing insurmountable problems, then there’s someting unhealthy and unnatural about that pairing. You can have divergent interests without a problem, but the common ones must be strong enough to keep you together. I’m not going to divorce my husband because he likes Onions and I hate them, but I’m not going to compromise my gag reflex by eating them either.

I don’t understand how you can say I’m sacrificing a deeper relationship or quitting by only choosing to happen upon those extremely deep and well matched friendships and relationships and not momentarily adapt my behavior to befriend someone with whom I wouldn’t naturally become friends.

You’re touching on the notions covered in a few recent marital relations threads. I’m going to see if I can find those for you.

(also, for the record, I hope you’re of the same opinion that this is a friendly debate. I’ve got no hard feelings on this end! It’s been a lot of fun.)

While this is not the question I was thinking of, it’s at least related to compromise.

yep, all in good fun. always!

insurmountable is an absolute. if a problem is truly insurmountable, obviously, you shouldn’t be wasting time trying to solve it.

if however, there is a solution and it’s just around the corner, wouldn’t it suck if you just gave up because it seemed insurmountable when it really wasn’t?

“finding” a solution = “making” a friendship work.

@Beta_Orionis, we’re talking high school here. There is a natural progression to certain types of changes. If your husband takes a sudden interest in playing pool, and starts hanging out at a pool hall, eventually you’re going to have the choice of either developing a passing interest in pool so you can do it together occasionally, or it’s going to become an issue in your relationship.

There’s nothing wrong with saying, you’re developing good fashion sense, will you come with me and help me pick out some really great boots, or could you come over and show me how you put on make-up because yours looks great. You don’t have to wear the make-up, but you give the friend a chance to stay connected.

@ninjacolin Following my train of thought, if your relationship was a well-matched, natural one, there wouldn’t be a problem to begin with. I’m not saying that a relationship should (or can?) be absolutely problem and conflict free, but that the solution to the problems encountered by excellent partners or friends is natural (even if that invovles the two parties walking away and returning to the conversation,) not really work, and rarely involves one or both parties compromising important aspects of themselves.

@PandoraBoxx But if she’s not interested in fashion at all, and really only wants their friendship to return to the way it was, is that not an unnatural and inadvisable course of action? In my eyes that’s basically feigning a real connection because you want companionship, that’s not a real friendship.

with the husband scenario, in a well-balanced, healthy relationship, a sudden shift in interests doesn’t seem like a real problem unless it’s interfering with some other aspect of life. If he’s hanging out at a pool hall when before he was, I don’t know, reading books or spending time with friends, there’s no conflict. If you’ve both set aside time to plan the week ahead or something and he’s taken up pool during that period, sure that becomes an issue. I can’t see something so sudden and not discussed would happen in a healthy relationship though.

k, then i believe your definition of friendship is.. misguided or something..

in order to get along with another person, you simply have to show interest in them. that’s basic human behaviour 101. if you don’t show interest, the other person will stop liking you.

if you are not interested in getting to know the other person and getting to know the things that they like and do… then you are simply not interested in that person. your disinterest will be felt, and it will have repercussions. for example, they will find new friends or they will start do do other things.

@ninjacolin I’m saying that while your interests don’t have to overlap, if they align really well, you become friends quite naturally. That does involve expressing interest in another, but not superficially. If you’re just not interested in the majority of what they do or like, then you’re not friendship material.

@Beta_Orionis, My daughters are 23 and 20. Both pretty much dress from second hand shops and thrift stores because they like unique looks. Both have on occasion hung out with people who were into mall fashion, and have spent time in the mall shopping with friends, buying clothing from American Eagle, looking at fashion magazines, etc. Even though that’s not the kind of person they are, it’s never harmful to understand how your own generation is.

@PandoraBoxx but your daughters share an interest with the folks who care for malls: shopping and presentation in general. If your daughters hated shopping or dressing up to look a certain way, they probably wouldn’t get along with the same people who frequent malls.

Nope, they wouldn’t be caught dead in a mall in any other circumstances. They like these friends, these friends like to shop, my daughters go to the mall with them. They cannot stand shopping under normal circumstances, and have no problem wearing clothes that they’ve had in middle school, or letting me pick out clothes for them.

People are not single dimensional, and they see something else in these friends that they like or find interesting. It’s entirely possible for nerdy girls to go shopping with the material girls to better understand their generation, or look at what people like and why they choose it. It doesn’t mean they share the interest.

@PandoraBoxx I think my thoughts on interests still stand. In fact, you’re kind of only supporting them.

Reminder: The dialogue I started with @ninjacolin revolved around my assertion that
“One does not need to change one’s interests or personality in order to make or retain friends. If one does, Strong and meaningful friendships / relationships are unlikely to result from those actions.”

You said your daughters shop thrift shops and enjoy, as you said, a unique look. While they may be content to let you purchase their clothing and wear old clothing, there are occasions where they choose their own unique presentation, and so on some level they can relate to choosing one’s wardrobe (regardless of the source,) and probably hold some kind of dialogue about it. Thus, during the mall trip, if a friend has a question about an article of clothing or an accessory, your daughters probably have something meaningful to contribute, not just platitudes, because the can relate in some way.

What comes to mind when I hear “Material Girl” is the shallow, all about consumer culture, preoccupied by her appearance, measures her worth and importance by her belongings and brands, and has nothing much to offer personality-wise, variety girl. These are obviously not your daughters friends.

If your daughters enjoy the company of their friends, there is something stronger at work, an overarching compatibility and alignment of interests that allows them to relate to one another and be friends. They came together not through shopping, but their commonalities. Which is how I said friendships are naturally formed.

—Never once did I say that friends don’t participate in other friends interests. It is when the majority of the interests of a “friend” are uninteresting or incompatible, or when you must choose to adopt that interest in conflict with your natural state of being to stay/make friends that becomes a problem.

So unless your daughters have started frequenting mall trips more often, suggesting them as bonding activities, and feigning an interest in mainstream fashion despite a complete disinterest because they think they will get along better with those friends, they’re right in line with my thinking.

As I said, friends’ interests don’t need to overlap. They can diverge at points, because no two people are completely alike, but they need some serious common ground to hold them together if the friendship is to be very meaningful and long-lasting.

.
BUT, even if it’s the intrigue of a data gathering, people watching expedition in the company of friends, my guess is that they are also enjoying the mall experience in some way.

Or do you mean to tell me that your daughters would subject themselves to something they really, absolutely did not enjoy in any way just because their friends do it?
.

Last point.
Just to project my own framework to illustrate a lack of compromise, I can’t stand malls in any way. I may enjoy the company of my friends, but it doesn’t block out the mall experience. Thus, I don’t accompany friends who enjoy shopping or people watching to said malls, and my friends are just fine with that. It’s not damaging to our friendship in any way because they understand my dislike and our friendship is based on more than mall trips.

Either you don’t believe in conversion or else you’re simply forgetting that people can convert from one belief to another. For example, from “i believe i hate shopping” to “i believe i love shopping.”

The current path that you are on is not necessarily the RIGHT path for you to be on and hence is not some path that in anyway deserves to be maintained. If you want to change your hobbies, change them. If you want to change who you are, change it.

By your logic, a career criminal should never strive to pick up the habits of the regular working class. Or a Muslim should never convert to Christianity. Or a Christian to atheism.

You can begin to like things that you didn’t like before. All you need is Positive Exposure to that thing which you currently dislike. You speak about staying “true to yourself” as if it’s somehow a more honorable or right way to live than living a balanced life of give-and-take in your relationships.

Anyone can see the benefit of never having to go shopping if you hate shopping. That certainly seems to make so much sense. However, those people, living the way that they do, will never know the benefits of a more cooperative spirit. Giving a little of yourself to others, even being able to give something to others has such a positive impact on your life that it’s worth your loss of time, to do a little shopping with the wife or the girls, for their sake. Doesn’t have to be all the time. But just to catch up every once in a while, get in on the jokes, conversation.. just to familiarize yourself with the activities that make your friends the wonderful people that they are.

gasp! Okay, I’ve come up for air. Between being the mastermind behind this year’s Thanksgiving and the last week of the semester, I’ve been a little bogged down.

BUT! In that time, I’ve had some reflection, and I’ve changed my mind on a few things. After having spent time with extended family on Thanksgiving, you’re right, there are times when you have to show interest in another’s interests to get along.

Still, my idea of being true to yourself is about balance. As I’ve been saying, I don’t believe in conversion for conversion’s sake. If a change does not come from internal motivation, because there is some aspect of yourself that is out of balance, then you shouldn’t be changing. Returning to the OP, she asked if she should change herself in order to maintain a friendship. That’s akin to converting because others tell you it’s the right thing to do. I don’t deny that it’s possible to change at random or under external pressures, but I don’t think that’s healthy.

lol, this conversation is hilarious to read over. :) great chat!

@Beta_Orionis said: “If a change does not come from internal motivation, because there is some aspect of yourself that is out of balance, then you shouldn’t be changing.”

and what i’ve been trying to say is: don’t worry, she can’t change unless she had some sort of internal motivation to do so. if it’s worth it to her to try to change, she will. if it’s not worth it, she won’t. know what i mean? it’s not something anyone has to worry about. you’re only going to do what you are motivated to do. hence, there is no such thing as “conversion only for conversion sake” because conversion only happens if you are motivated to do it. it’s kind of a moot point.

@Beta_Orionis said: ”Returning to the OP, she asked if she should change herself in order to maintain a friendship. That’s akin to converting because others tell you it’s the right thing to do. I don’t deny that it’s possible to change at random or under external pressures, but I don’t think that’s healthy.”

And I’m not suggesting that she be a sheep and simply follow along with whatever people ask/pressure her to do. I agree with you that that would be bad, however, it’s technically impossible because, as humans, we will only ever do what we personally, somehow feel compelled to do. This speaks to what is possible/impossible for humans.

Anyway, my main point is this: If you value someone, showing an interest in their interests will help you preserve and deepen your relationship with them.

Hence, your motivation for conversion could very well be that the person is just that important to you. Maybe they’re worth it! And that’s your decision. There’s no shame in liking someone so much that you try something new just for them. But again, I’m not saying that you become slave to their whims. Instead, I’m saying that that for those who are worth it, you will allow them to be themselves and you will take an interest in their interests… everyone who you don’t care for, you will either ignore or go out of your way to inhibit their interests, because that’s what enemies do.

Also, I should say taking an interest in someone else’s interests doesn’t mean that you will like what they like exactly as much as they do. It just means that you’ll be supportive of their interests, allowing them to grow their hobbies along side yours in a cooperative environment. is that better?

i would just go try to befreind someone else.i was in a similar situation with my cousins.for example:one of them would arrive at my birthday party,and we would play for awhile then another on would arrive and it would almost be like they got tired of playing with me and would go off with the other and ignore me.every time i would try to play with them they would go some were else and ignore me.i felt similar to the way your feeling.i would say shes probally attention seeking.(trying to get the populars attention).or shes trying to prove herself.kids will do that if there under peer presure or being bullied.you should confront her and ask her if shes being bullied.but i just wouldnt be too pushy.

I wouldn’t go chasing after her. Stick to the friends that you really connect with and don’t change yourself for any body else (unless your are getting rid of bad habits). If she really is a good friend she’ll come around back to you.