Does it make you just want to scream when a "professional," someone you count on to lead you, makes an irresponsible, off the wall comment that scares the hell out of everyone?

It’s time for a new doctor. The idea he used a term like “sun-downers” proves he is at least 20 years behind the times. It is also a sign he has no plan of doing anything to help him.

My Mother almost died last year because of a quack (he said “all we can do is pray), until I brought in another Doctor who had her back to normal in five days.

I strongly suggest you get another Doctor or at least a second opinion.

It’s not uncommon for elderly people to become mentally disoriented after a fall for a time. It does not indicate Alzheimer’s. I would look for a new doctor too.

Definitely find a new doctor.
Consider the possiblity that this symptom may not just be from sleep deprivation, but a reaction from some of the medicine he is taking.

I agree with @janbb, @filmfann and @DrBill, a new doctor is the best way to go. what a jerkface. how insensitive/unprofessional to just throw out terms that would cause the entire family to freak out when he doesnt have much proof/support for it. shakes head in disgust

@filmfann O, definitely. It’s a combination. I’ll pass the opinions about getting a new doctor on. Actually, the family WANTS a new doctor but…I don’t know what factors are going into the fact that they haven’t. Part of it is, I guess, the fact that Dad swears by this guy. It’s been his doctor for years. Well, I think they’re at the point where they can declare him temporarily unable to make a decision, and GET a new doctor.

@DrBill :: “all we can do is pray” I think I just shat myself.

To be fair, my ex (now RIP) had some severe complications from treatment of Chronic Leucocytic Lymphoma. He had a clear problem with evening cognitive; his young, experienced specialists called it “sundown dementia.”

During the AM and rest of day, he was fine, clear and on the ball.

I am not mad at the doctor in that scenerio, although I am frequently pissed off at doctors. Sounds like your relative might be sundowning. The problem is when you google something you can freak yourself out. Sundown syndrome does not have to be connected to alzheimers, it is very common in older people. You said yourself it was ads that popped uo oabout alzheimers drugs, this is just big business at work, clogging up the access of information.

Also, think about if you look up a medication you might be taking you will read it can cause all sorts of horrible side effects, doesn’t mean you are going to have one of those side effects or that the doctor is prescribing you poison. Looking on the interenet for info can be a great thing, but it can also cause undo panick.

What @JLeslie said. :) ‘Cept I would have said “undue panic,” but hey. ;D

@avvooooooo I thought both spellings are accepted? Hmm? Plus, I just noticed I have several typos in the above answer :(.

@Val123 It is possible he is in the beginning stages of dementia (alzheimers falls under dementia, but if you have dementia it does not mean you have alzheimers). Dementia is diagnosed in the elderly as they lose some cognitive functions and some other losses (we as lay people would probably just accept it as normal aging). I’m not a medical professional, so you might want to look up dementia vs. alzheimers? Maybe there are articles differentiating the two that might be helpful. Sorry your family was upset so by what the doctor said, I really can understand.

My mother was diagnosed in her early nineties with “senile dementia,” which is a fancy way of saying that she gradally lost all her short-term memory. My sis and I wallpaper her appartment with post-it notes.

@JLeslie Not really. but GA regardless!

@JLeslie That’s exactly my point. The doctor threw that out without considering the fact that it’s most commonly associated with Alzheimer’s, and if they looked it up that’s what they’d get hit with! Even Wikipedia stressed Alzheimer’s. He should have told them that Dad doesn’t have Alzheimer’s, but is reacting to the meds and the lack of sleep, but he didn’t, and that was irresponsible and stupid, IMO.
Also, as I stated in the details, my mother died from Alzheimer’s. It was a 7 year nightmare, so….I’m pretty well educated in the differences between Alzheimer’s and dementia. The thing about this is, if it were compared to dementia, this wouldn’t be “onset.” The “Onset” is very gradual, but what Dad is displaying would be compared to a full blown total off the deep end case, and it just doesn’t happen overnight! It’s not like one day you’re fine, and the next day you’re hallucinating and asking for people who died years ago! This is simply a reaction to everything he’s going through.
That having been said, once he gets fully recovered, THEN you can begin assessing his mental capabilities, which just might be permanently affected by this. I hope not. Trying to do it now is totally impossible.

@gailcall “Gradually” That’s the KEY word here!

@avvooooooo “Panic” with a K is a much more worser kind of panic than regular panic with a C!

@Val123 Much more worser than? LOL!

@Val123 are you saying you don’t agree with the diagnosis of sundowning for him? The doctor did not say he has alzheimers he said he was sundowning. I take that to mean he is maybe getting a little confused after dark and maybe becoming harder to deal with or reason with after dark. I think it has a lot to do with circadian rythyms.

@avvooooooo thanks for pointing out the spelling error.

@JLeslie I do not disagree that he has sundown syndrome. But look here . You google it, and in every single cite almost the first reference is to Alzheimer’s. Now, if you don’t know anything about Alzheimers or Dementia it would be very easy to jump to the conclusion that the doctor was telling them that Dad has ALZ! And that’s what’s happened! I, of course, know that isn’t the case, and I’ve made sure Rick knows, and he’ll pass it on. I guess…I don’t know if anyone has asked the Dr. directly about, either.

The other part of the problem for me is the fact that it’s Rick’s family and I’m a relative new comer, just in the last 7 years. All the other wives have been with the family 40+ years! If I were there I could explain to them all what the deal is, If I were there I might have the opportunity to bring it up to the doctor myself. But I’m not there, and it’s tricky. I don’t know that the thoughts of an “outsider” would be welcome and I just don’t feel comfortable calling them on the phone. I need to….go through the “proper channels” if you know what I mean.

(PS, when I WAS there last week, I cornered the nurse in private and expressed my concerns about Dad continuing to live at the house he’s lived in for 60 years, where the boys were raised. I’ve ALWAYS been worried about it! He walks with a cane, he has dizzy spells, and he has flights of concrete steps, that are covered with carpet but no pad, AND that doesn’t have any handrails, to climb up and down several times a day to get out. For whatever reason, the family is resistant to him moving (isn’t it usually the other way around??) but I talked to the nurse, who talked to the Dr. and now it’s on the table.)

Also, I would say that he has a temporary dementia, which is not the same thing as real dementia or Alzheimer’s, neither of which are “temporary!” I’m just saying the Doctor needs to use his head when he starts throwing words and terms around to avoid the very misunderstanding the family is going through now.

@Val123 OK, I REALLY identify with you. I would infer from what you wrote that the other family members did not ask the doctor directly if he thinks the patient has alzheimers, they just went off on a tizzy about the whole thing. To defend the doctor I think he was just describing the symptoms he was observing and could not have guessed that other family members were going to start going on-line and making it into something else. I hate most doctors so I empathasize. I was not there, and do not know if he has done other things that have upset the family, so in reality I am not trying to defend the doctor per se.

I have an example of my own. My father-in-law was diagnosed with ostepeorosis around the age of 60 and had some other problems and his GP told him he should have a colonscopy, because sometimes if the cancer leaves the colon it can go to the bone, or something like that, and some of his symptoms indicated colon cancer possibly. My husbands family went insane. In fact my husband’s brother was moving out of state a week before the colonscopy was scheduled and they HATED him for it. Could not understand how he could leave when their father might have cancer (well my husband was not pissed, because he had me to help him understand what was going on, my point was his dad was not alone for the test and God forbid it was cancer his son of course would have flown right back to town). My in-laws do not generally like to hear my advice or input, they kind of view me as a know-it-all I think and that I interfere too much, so I tend to hold back now. The thing is I do know way more than they do about medicine, but I am not saying I know more than doctors. Anyway, what I knew at the time was his father was 60, had never had a colonoscopy (you are supposed to get a routine one at 50) and he had some symptoms and why not schedule the test to be sure? I also knew that men get osteoperosis also, which is not very publicized, and he is a small statured man, so it seemed likely he would be more susceptible than a typical man.

Afterwards, his test was perfectly normal, no cancer, no nothing, they were super-pissed the doctor ever mentioned cancer or that the doctor even made him go through the test. I think the doc was recommending the test because it was prudent to do anyway and god fobid might explain some of the symptoms he was having. But, they, my in-laws, are better at knowing nothing, nothing that is possibly scary, and just simply following a doctors order.

I on the other hand want all of the info, and I do not scare easily, and I talk to medical professionals if I have questions (usually friends who are willing to have a conversation not a doctor I see, which is a sad statement), I don’t just google.

So, if he had just charted sundown syndrome and not said it out load, but rather described the symptoms as an acknowledgement of what was happening they would have been fine. Sundowing is a short hand for him. There is probably stuff all over his chart that would over worry your relatives.

I think the best thing to do would be for one of the family members to mention that they have Googled it and are now worried and want to know if Alzthiemer’s is something they should be concerned about. He can reassure them that the term can be used in other ways. They need to be direct and, if necessary, persistent about getting a response that answers all of their concerns. There is no reason to worry themselves silly over an assumption derived from an internet search when there is someone who can tell them about this specific case.

@Val123 About the safety of the home they can probably just makes some additions to make it safer like handrails and a higher toilet seat and a thing they can put in showers so he has something to hold onto.

A hospital-quality grab bar for shower; but you need real tiles in order to install it and not some plugged-in fiberglass unit.

@Val123: WE refuse to remove the leg irons from my mother unless she puts on plastic and velcro ankle brace for one ankle that is pronating badly and unless she uses her walker or cane. Walker is easier and smoother, however.

I used one when I broke several ribs; it was a life-saver.

@JLeslie We are soul mates! Yes, they went into a tizzy over assumptions. I’m always the calmer, logical one in those situations too. WHY is it always such a mess with family members?? Part of the nightmare of my Mother was caused by my sister…...that’s another story. The moral of THIS story is, the doctors need to be very aware of what kind of impact the things they are saying may have! And the questions might not pop up until after the doctor has left!
Also, the Doctor SHOULD have said that Dad is suffering from ICU Syndrome/Psychosis! In googling that, that’s EXACTLY what he’s experiencing, and the Sundown Shit is just a part of that. ( I have a doctor friend on another site, that’s what he said it was)

Here’s an excerpt:

“The cluster of psychiatric symptoms of ICU psychosis include:

* extreme excitement,

* anxiety,

* restlessness,

* hearing voices,

* clouding of consciousness,

* hallucinations,

* nightmares,

* paranoia,

* disorientation,

* agitation,

* delusions,

* abnormal behavior,

* fluctuating level of consciousness which include aggressive or passive behavior.

In short, patients become __temporarily__ psychotic. The symptoms vary greatly from patient to patient. The onset of ICU psychosis is usually rapid, and is upsetting and frightening to the patient and family members”

It also notes in the link that it can disappear almost like magic when they’re moved out of ICU!!

http://www.medicinenet.com/icu_psychosis/article.htm

Per the house…no, I really think he’d be better off on one level….but it’s not my call. What I can’t fathom is WHY they haven’t installed hand rails already! They KNOW he’s had dizzy spells, ever since his triple by-pass 10 years ago! Also, he has a little dog, and he has this little gate propped up between the room he spends most of his time in, and the living room, to keep the dog out of the rest of the house. Well, he has to go through the living room to get to his bedroom. He just climbs over the gate! It drives me nuts! I’ve been after Rick since day one to put it on a hinge! Plus, the house is rather rotting, sewage seeps into the basement. It smells of mold….I don’t get what’s up with those people.

@gailcall He has a grab bar in the shower, but that’s another thing. It’s a bathtub, and he has to climb in and out.

@Supacase Doy! That’s the first thing I would have done! But, if you read above, I’m sort of an outsider, out of the loop. I’m trying to get a hold of Rick see see what the status is now.

@JLeslie @Supacase update. Rick did ask the doctor directly about the ALZ. He said, No, he doesn’t have ALZ. Rick passed that on to the family (it’s a good thing he has me!)

Also, I “innocently” emailed the info on ICU psychosis to his brother, (the stuff I posted above) ‘splaining that a doctor friend of mine said that’s what it was.

ALSO, forgot to mention @JLeslie Something the families fail to appreciate is that we just might have a clearer, more objective understanding of the situation simply because we’re a little more removed from it. I think the deal with the house is that the guys don’t want to give it up because of all of the memories growing up in there, and the memories of their mom…..

Anyway, I feel better now. I was getting scared. When my mom was only 68 My sister, on her own, decided mom had the onset of ALZ (I didn’t see anything wrong besides her usual mental goofiness, which I grew up with! She’s always been a mental space case, bless her heart!) and looked until she found a Dr. who would “confirm” it. She found one (not hard to do. If your 2 year old is acting like a 2 year old, it’s easy to find a doctor who proclaim them ADHD. If a older person starts acting like an older person, boom! They have ALZ) Anyway, they started her on those horrid, extremely experimental mind altering drugs. That healthy, strong woman with NO other medical issues was dead with in 7 years. She’s the youngest of 9, and every one else is still alive, and to this day I will ALWAYS question whether she even HAD ALZ. I was scared they’d just jump the gun and start pumping that shit in him.

@Val123 I wish I had great advice to help you deal with the fam. I have shed quite a few tears, the results of loving them and trying to help, only to have it smacked back in my face in some negative way. Not only with medical stuff, but with real estate (I was a realtor) and other things. I always wonder what they think when what I said winds up being the truth? I hope you fair better than I have. Thank goodness my husband generally thinks his family is insane and ungrateful, he asks me when I am going to learn LOL. And, at other time he helps explain to me their point of view, which is actually very helpful.

@JLeslie In my situation, with my sister, if I was right, she’d just turn all hard and angry and turn away….Good news. The oldest, the one they kind of look to to be in charge, has come out and said, “We need to think about what to do when Dad goes home, because he can’t go back to the house…” breaks arm patting myself on the back. Yep, per my question, I sure can play head games, but never for the dark side But, maybe I broke my arm for nothing. Maybe they would have thought of it themselves, but I KNOW that as of Thursday they weren’t considering it….

Many relatively common drugs used can cause elderly people to act “crazy”, see if you can go over his med list. Lorazepam is one culprit and common pain killers for a broken hip caould cause symptoms too.

@faye good point.

@Val123 Yeah. The thing is I am not obsessed with being right, I don’t think you are either, you are just trying to think things through out loud and be helpful. But, my husband’s family hates to be wrong like I have never seen. I think they feel like I am telling them they are stupid and wrong, which is so far off the mark. I am so removed from this wy of thinking, if I am wrong I easily admit it, and if I am wrong I want to know, I want to correct whatever mistake I have made and I want more information if I can get it. I am not lloking for a pat on the back from them, I am just looking not to be treated like a piece of s**t and not be seen as a pain in the neck. So after 16 years of marriage I have given up. Well, I gave up around year 13. If they come to me for help, I am happy to help, if they don’t, they don’t.

@faye Yeah. My MD friend said that many of the drugs that would work the way they were intended on younger patients (pain, anti-anxiety) can very well cause the elderly to go “nuts” (his word.) So….why don’t they have drugs specifically FOR the elderly?? He said they do, but didn’t say what, specifically.

@JLeslie No, I’m not obsessed with being right. I’m just like you. I really, really want to see the truth, no matter what. There are times I HOPE I’m wrong, but I’m usually not (my mom even told me that once!) But, there are particular members of my family who are obsessed with being right. They NEED to be right for their self esteem, for their self worth, for their self-perception of intelligence and perfection…so come hell or high water, they’ll put a spin on what is obviously wrong, to make it look like it’s right. And they really think they’ve got other people convinced!
Ahem. the people I’m referring to are stupid and wrong!!!!! Well, maybe not so stupid but…blind to everything but their own agenda.

@Val123 my sister was an at home nurse and used to take care of elderly patients, and they kind of know which drugs don’t do well with older patients, they know better than the doctors, because the doctors have less interaction with the patient. These nurse usually call the doctors and tell them what to prescribe. I knew a pharmacist who worked at a hospital specializing in geriatric patients. She would round with the doctors and look over medication schedules and advise them on drugs that interacted poorly and if they were duplicating medicines. Doctors many times are not the best at knowing about medications—dissapointing.

@JLeslie Yes. Thank you so very much….I so wish I could be more of a “force” in this situation…but….I’ve made some impact, albeit behind the scenes…..(Like I said above, the first major issue I had about Dad not being able to simply “going back home” I whispered to the nurse in private. Doc brought it up yesterday, now fam. is bringing it up…...)