Showdown between parents and me: Christianity vs Homosexuality. Advice needed (warning: very long story inside)?

Wow, you are definitely in a tough spot, and I feel for you. I expect that no matter how much logical argument there is, you’re parents may not be convinced. Time and experience with people (you and your boyfriend) in good, loving, homosexual relationships are the more likely convincers. That said, I have some thoughts.

1. Your parent’s theory is almost certainly wrong. There’s plenty of debate out there on nature versus nurture, but nature probably has the strongest argument. Even if nurture plays a role, there is little doubt that nature plays a very strong role. Modern psychiatry has made it very clear that homosexuality is not a psychological problem to be treated. Your parents’ view seems to see it that way, and that’s wrong. There is a lot of evidence out there against programs that try to “cure” people of being gay. At most they can teach one to subjugate one’s homosexuality to something else, but they’re still gay, and trouble from repressing that is likely to pop up down the line (one need only look at the case of Larry Craig to see that).

2. Christianity and homosexuality are not necessarily incompatible. While reconciling them is difficult, it’s really all about interpretation, and pretty much every denomination on earth interprets the Bible differently. A few hints in that direction: many apparently clear instructions in the Bible are aimed at particular groups at particular times and do not necessarily apply to us, now. Some of those instructions directly contradict others. Some we have just abandoned (there is a lot of stoning in the Old Testament, and I don’t think any Christian denomination does that now) so there is a case to be made that the proscription against homosexuality can be abandoned as well. It’s not in the ten commandments, and it’s not mentioned many times. It’s probably not that important. Then of course there is the Episcopal Church, which is very accepting of homosexuality. I also have a very close friend who is a devout Catholic and a lesbian. I’m not sure how she reconciles her sexuality with Catholic doctrine, but she does.

3. Having said that, I think that the general Christian stance on homosexuality does in fact point out that Christianity is wrong, and that “to judge you based on your orientation is deeply flawed”. But I have fairly strong views on that, and it is a road you’ll have to go down on your own.

Holy crap thats a novel. Hang on a minute for me to read it. :)

The ELCA Lutheran Church has just been struggling with this battle and decided to allow openly homosexual clergy if the congregation approves. You may want to research the arguments that debate sparked.
An approach I would take with your parents is to tell them that you are on a quest for the truth. Tell them that you welcome their prayers.
Tell them that they raised you well, and that you would like them to trust God to lead you to the truth.
Remind them,

“Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus”

~ Philippians 4:6–7

Calling on them to trust God is the best way to get them to not go crazy on you.
Then go out there and seek the truth.

You have to come to your own peace with God on whatever the topic. One has to understand that the Bible doesn’t address every single situation we will face in life.

For me the topic was divorce. The Bible has precious little to say about divorce, what organized religion does is take the 5 verses on a subject and build a doctrine. It is the same way with Homosexuality. It says precious few verses specifically about it and yet it is somehow enough to form the opinion that Homosexuals are living in some kind of constant sin.

I started realizing that a lot of organized religion is actually worshipping the Bible and not the God that the Bible was written about. Making them cousins to the Pharisee’s Jesus battled with in the New Testament.

So lean on your relationship with God and ask Him to explain things to you. In the mean time expect your parents to be mature about the matter. It should be okay to not have everything figured out…you are still young!

Hope this helps.

Let me add one important note about the coming “showdown”. Try not to look at it that way. @Judi‘s suggestion for how to keep your parents calm by asking them to trust God is a good one. You want to defuse the situation as much as possible. Tell them it’s not their fault, that they haven’t failed, that God will not judge them for your orientation even if He does judge you. You want to prevent a fight that becomes so big that they say they want you out of their lives or vice versa. No matter what try to keep contact from being cut off. As long as you are communicating they can grow to accept you as you are over time. If you are not speaking to each other, then healing the potential rift in your family will be much more difficult.

First, my heart goes out to you.

If this turns into a debate about what the Bible’s stance on homosexuality is (and this is likely the tack that your parents are going to take), then you’re not going to make your case. There are, as you must know, many passages condemning homosexual relations and zero explicitly approving them. At best, you could argue that only the sexual act is condemned, not the orientation, but that’s a horrible position.

Given their fundamentalist ideology, you’re also unlikely to make any points by arguing, as the more liberal Christian sects do, that all that really matters is adherence to Jesus’ “greatest commandment” to love God with your whole being, and your neighbor as yourself, and that all the other rules and regulations are trivial in comparison to this “spirit of the law”. To them, this will be seen as an affront to the integrity of the scripture.

Frankly, it may just be time to send the message that you have to take ownership of your own spirituality here. Let them know that you appreciate their efforts to provide what spiritual guidance they have during your youth, but that part of being an adult is finding a path that rings true with one’s own experience and intuition. They’ll resist that, because they think it’s all about bending yourself to conform to the template.

This is important stuff. We all eventually have to differentiate ourselves from our parents and stop trying to be what they want us to be. It’s essential for a healthy relationship. But this is often quite painful for parents, and never more so than when religion is involved.

My best wishes for a happy resolution.

Here’s a thread with a discussion on the topic among Christians. The Author is pro-gay marriage.

I hate to break it to you, but there’s no easy way out of your situation. Are Christianity and homosexuality compatible? Well, that’s for you to decide. It’s difficult to question the things you’ve been told since you were little, but it has to be done. I’m no theologist, so I won’t be any help here.

What I can tell you though is that you shouldn’t require your parents’ permission to be happy. Are you happy with your boyfriend? Do you feel like that’s the way you want to live? If the answers to both of these questions are “yes”, then the only thing listening to your parents is going to accomplish is making you unhappy. Do you believe in a God who wants good people to make themselves unhappy? Because I don’t.

What I would suggest is standing up to your parents. If they end up hating you for it, you may be better off in the long run anyway. I know it’s tough, but that’s life. If they really do love you, they’ll accept you for who you are eventually.

@amnorvend‘s answer is good until the last paragraph. I disagree in the strongest terms with this statement: “If they end up hating you for it, you may be better off in the long run anyway. I know it’s tough, but that’s life. If they really do love you, they’ll accept you for who you are eventually.”

I think that you are who you are and you shouldn’t change that for them, or lie to them about it. But the fact is that your parents will not hate you because of this, not really, not unless they are some truly exceptional bastards. They may not understand, and they may be very angry, but they won’t really hate you, and if they decide to break off contact with you over this, you will not likely be better off in the long run. Maintaining contact in spite of your difference, realizing that you can love each other without agreeing, is the only thing that will enable them to come to accept you in time.

I say this as someone who broke off contact with his own parents, and had to work to heal that relationship. I also say it as a parent who didn’t really appreciate his own parents until he became one. Whatever your differences, you want to be in contact, the only exception is abuse, which you don’t indicate is an issue here.

First of all, I think you should bring up the fact that you’re a big boy now and you have a right to make your own decisions on this sort of thing. Both religion and sexuality are things anyone should be free to make up their own minds on. Your parents have no right to decide for you. If they want you to grow up into an independent adult, they have to let you figure things out for yourself, and respect you enough to let you reach your own conclusions.

More usefully, I can tell you that there are plenty of Christians who are completely cool with homosexuality. The Netherlands have almost exclusively this kind of Christian. Nobody has any trouble reconciling these aspects at all.
There is nothing about Christianity that is fundamentally at odds with homosexuality. The bible mentions it’s bad, sure, but the bible also says eating shell fish is bad and wearing clothes made of more than one kind of thread is bad, to give just two ridiculous rules from a very long and pretty scary list. You’ll have to have some standards as to what parts you take seriously and what parts are just the bronze age tribesmen spouting their primitive bigotry. It’s not all the word of god. There have been so many well-documented human influences on the bible that it’s not at all hard to believe at least some parts were added by people.
Many Christians choose to draw the line between the Testaments. Leviticus and the works are obsolete, they say, and only the laws and rules laid down in the New Testament are in effect now. Which is a convenient position for you as well, since – if I’m not mistaken – all the anti-gay bigotry is in the Old Testament as well.

Best of luck, my friend.

First of all… ((((((hugs))))))
I am sorry that you are having to struggle with these issues. I think it is good that your parents have had fairly in-depth conversations with you.

1) I think it’s irrelevant how you became gay… you are what you are.

3) I was raised Presbyterian – but not as conservative – I currently do not follow any religion. Is Christianity wrong?I have difficulty letting a book of stories (some of which are contradictory) that has been translated and interpreted by men who had an agenda. Did Jesus of Nazareth exist, and was he sent down by an omniscient deity to absolve me of my wrongdoings two centuries later? Hmmmmm… We won’t know until we cross the finish line.

2) My father is a homosexual. He grew up in the 40s and 50s when homosexuality was listed a an actual Psychiatric Diagnosis. He and I are not close for a number of reasons, so I can’t give specifics.

I was told that he received ‘treatment’ for his homosexuality, and was expected to lead a ‘normal’ life. Hence, he married my mother and that had 3 kids. We were all miserable, because my father was miserable. He came out in the late 70s when I was around 13 and had no clue what homosexuality was.

He had always been, and remained active in the Presbyterian church. He moved a few times and now is in a different state. I do not know details of how he has resolved his homosexuality with Cristianity. I have friends who were raised Catholics, and many remain Christian, but choose a different denomination, usually.

My personal rejection of religion is based on the fact that so many place judgements on people and discriminate based on gender or sexual preference. As a Caucasian heterosexual woman, I am opposed to being treated any differently from anyone else. I did not pick my gender or ethnicity, eye color, or sexual orientation, nor did anyone else. Therefore, no one should be judged for factors that are completely beyond our control.

We are all deserving of love. We are all humans with various strengths and weaknesses. We are all capable of doing good and doing harm. As long as we are not doing harm, we should all be free to pursue what brings us joy and fulfillment.

If there is an omniscient deity, especially one that created us to be imperfect, I believe that we would be loved and accepted by that being, as long as we are not choosing behaviors that are harmful.

I hope that you and your parents will be able to find a sense of peace and acceptance. Good luck!

I… I am quite overwhelmed..

The answers given so far are really good, but I’m afraid I currently don’t have the time to reply to each one of them personally. Although I must say that the link that @Judi gave looks extremely promising. Mark my words, I’ll work my way through to answering these answers as individually and personally as possible when I’m freer (give me some hours to get back).

In the meantime, thank you so much guys. =)

P.S.
It will probably be good to note that they’re basing much of their arguments on the New Testament as opposed to the Old Testament.

1. As others have pointed out, there’s little science to support your parents’ position. However: this question is absolutely irrelevant. From what we know now, it looks like homosexuality—like most complex human behaviors—is a mix between nature and nurture. But if your gayness came from “nurture” instead of some inborn trait, that has no bearing on its legitimacy.

Christians often go down this “nurture” route because it supports their mythology that homosexuality is a “choice,” and thus is something arbitrary that can be erased or cleansed. Did you choose to like guys instead of girls? If scientists discovered that there are no genes for gayness, would that make your experience anymore of a “choice”?

No! We don’t choose how we are raised. We don’t choose how we are nurtured. Our personalities and behaviors develop based on a huge amount of factors—the fact that some of those are environmental doesn’t make them arbitrary, or a choice.

2. It depends on how you define “Christianity.” In the Bible, Yahweh is clear that homosexuality is an “abomination.” Yahweh is also clear, in the same section of Leviticus, that people who commit adultery should be put to death, and that you can legally purchase slaves and pass them down to your children (Lev. 25:45).

Yahweh also makes it clear elsewhere in the Bible that brides who cannot prove their virginity on their wedding night must be stoned to death on their father’s doorstep (Dt. 22:13) and that virgin rape victims must marry their rapists (Dt. 22:28).

Yahweh also makes it clear that unbelievers must be killed “without mercy” even if they are in your own family (Dt. 13:6). And the Bible is the only religious text I know of that actually commands genocide (Dt. 20:16, the entire book of Joshua).

So, if you define “Christianity” as being based on what the Bible says, then yes, homosexuality is against Christianity. So is breaking any of the wonderful laws I cited above. But really, who gives a shit if something is against a book that condones rape, slavery and genocide?

3. I think Christianity is utter nonsense. Beyond the sheer barbaric immorality of its laws and moral codes (see above), the basic tenets of Christianity are so silly that it is amazing that anyone in their right mind can believe in them. I mean, do you actually believe that a Jewish zombie, who is his own father, died as a sacrifice—to himself—in order to change the metaphysical laws that he made, to help humans get rid of an evil magical force “imputed” onto them by a mythical ancestor, who ate a magic fruit with his rib-woman wife, at the behest of a talking snake?

Some people on Fluther believe in a Christianity where everything stupid and unpleasant in the Bible and the traditions is interpreted “metaphorically” (whatever that means). I obviously have no use for it (and I am opposed to any religion based on the Bible), but there are tolerant and secular sects of Christianity if maintaining this belief is that important to you.

But don’t let your parents bully you, and don’t feel ashamed for a perfectly natural and utterly harmless sexual inclination. Good luck!

I’m at work so only have time for a short, but in no ways flippant, answer. I’m not an expert in Christianity so I can’t weigh in there but I just want to support you in your struggle with your parents. I do beliee that orientation is innate and that your nurturing probably had little to do with it.

I have been engaged in struggles with my sons over the years about various issues, some of them religious. It can be very painful at times but where there is deep love, as you have with your folks, and I have with my kids, you can eventually come to a place of understanding. Reiterating your love for them while asserting your right to be your own person is the message you have to communicate. @Judi‘s ideas seem very on point. My hurt goes out to you.

I apologize for giving a shorter and more oblique answer, but I will be blunt. It strikes me how (like @Harp and others have indicated) you’re trying to argue your individuality using the rules of an unfavorable paradigm. Imagine (just as an example- not the best) a slave arguing with white slaveowners about the merits of slavery. While saying that, I respect that this is the framework you are working within, and as a recovering Catholic, I can understand that the process of reworking religious beliefs (for a conscientious person) is very difficult work. Just recognize that you are looking at this problem through eyeglasses of a particular color and that it is possible to change them.

Equally colored is your belief about why you are (or might be) gay. The real question here is “what do you think?” Your parent’s answer is obviously a starting point, but really that’s just a placeholder for your own self-awareness. Do the work and settle the question for yourself. That will put you on more solid footing. All that said, the why shouldn’t really matter. You are who you are, and again the sooner that anybody comes to terms with and takes ownership of their own identity the better. That’s the key to being yourself and not caring so much what other people think. It’s liberating to just feel good about who you are, and you should push yourself in that direction.

The more I read your question and others responses it seems a good chunk of your dilemma is about your own individuation. There are some people who are lucky enough to be selflessly encouraged to become who they are, but most simply have to figure out that nobody is going to give them permission and they have to take it for themselves.

I have a friend who was raised Baptist and went to a Baptist college. He didn’t come out to his parents (and everyone in general) until he was around 35. Following that, he legally changed his name, moved across the country, gradually took on an openly gay lifestyle and is now a successful and happy person. His parents were unhappy about these things (especially the name change), but he still comes back to visit pretty regularly (i.e. the world didn’t fall apart), and for better or worse, he kind of pities his parents’ sad outlook on life. All those rules and taboos and “sky is falling” fears are kind of sad to him.

If none of the above works, just point your finger and yell “You raised me!” ;-)

I am on your side – you parents, however, have their own paradigm and that paradigm is very hard to get out of – it’s given them a way to see life…now you need to figure out your own way…many of my queer friends (as I am an atheist) who were Christians were able to reconcile the two by switching to more progressive churches…many dropped it all together and feel the better for it…I am sorry you constantly have to deal with this, all the fights must be wearing on you…your parent’s theory is wrong…they’re grasping at straws here to explain something that doesn’t need explaining…you are who you are and you shouldn’t have to change who you love because of what the Bible says…

Again, just in case it isn’t that clear, my parents base a lot of their argument on the NT. I still remember the night when my father sat me down in front of a bible and read out Romans 1:27 to me:

“In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion”

And also 1 Corinthians 6:8–10:

” 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

Those two stick very clearly in my head..

(Again, I’ll give a personal response to all those who’ve answered. Promise. See you in a few hours people.)

@Saturated_Brain, Paul said women should submit to men in all things (1 Tim 2).

Paul also said the Law is “holy, just, and good” (Romans 7:12). This would be the Law that, among other things, condones rape, slavery, and genocide.

Why would anyone give a shit what Paul thinks about homosexuality? Personally, I think Paul is among the most infuriating demagogues in human history, an ancient incarnation of modern-day televangelists.

@Saturated_Brain this is really more about whether or not you want to fight scripture with scripture or to fight scripture with ‘who the hell cares about scripture?’ you have to decide…otherwise it makes no sense…to me, any quotes from the Bible are completely irrelevant, so they can quote it all they want but if you don’t believe in it, then it doesn’t matter…if you do believe in it, there have been re-readings of the Bible, different interpretations that are a lot more accepting…personally, I find that if you have to try so hard to find acceptance with this God that is all-loving, then you’re looking in the wrong place

Something I missed from your first post:

“But my parents say (or at least my father does, he’s the more logical one) that if I can prove their stance wrong they’ll give me their blessings, so it’s a gamble I’m willing to take.”

You don’t have to prove their stance is wrong. The burden of proof isn’t on you. Rather, your father needs to prove—to you, and to himself—why the Bible is a worthwhile document to follow. Your father needs to show why we should follow a text that is by all scholarly accounts Mesopotamian mythology*, a text with a morality based in ancient Mesopotamia, that contradicts itself throughout, that contradicts known science and observable reality, and that has zero evidence to support its most basic theological claims.

If your father cannot prove this, he can believe whatever he wants but he’s in no position to demand that anyone else believe.

*The early books on the Bible have many clear parallels to ancient Mesopotamian mythology. Yahweh’s creation is very similar to Marduk’s creation in the Babylonian creation story, the Enuma Elish. In both texts, the sky is portrayed as a solid dome that holds up an above-sky ocean (which makes sense if you’re a bronze-age nomad looking at the thing). Yahweh also shares attributes with Sin, the Babylonian moon god. For example, Sin’s cult practiced “shabatu days,” roughly every week, where you weren’t supposed to work because the day was considered astrologically unlucky. The Bible’s flood story is nearly identical to an earlier Akkadian flood story called The Epic of Atrahasis. It’s fairly obvious that Yahweh is really just another Mesopotamian sky god who was lucky enough to have a stubborn sect of followers in the Hebrews.

@Qingu tangent: have you read Stephenson’s “Snow Crash”...I think it would be helpful for the OP to read it

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, yeah, a while ago. Um, I love Stephenson (especially Anathem!) but I wouldn’t really recommend Snow Crash as a good source for learning about Mesopotamian mythology! iirc, Sumerian “tongues” had magical properties as an ur-language or something, right? Yeah, no.

@Qingu well it is fiction, :~...like the Bible

Conservative/Fundamentalist Christians love Paul and his letters, but frankly, there’s not a lot of reason we should accept them. They seem in many places to be at odds with the teachings of Christ. Paul was a Roman tax collector who converted, but it seems that he was obsessed with very strict laws. I for one think that even if the rest of the New Testament were true, the works of Paul would still be questionable. They are the writings of a man obsessed with power and with controlling people.

In addition they are clearly directed at particular groups of people, and there is no reason to assume that they apply universally. In fact I believe some are self contradictory. I can’t recall chapter and verse, and I could be totally wrong, but I believe Paul told one group to always wear hats, and another not to wear hats. This is trivial, but the only reason people think Paul’s words on homosexuality are less trivial is because of their own beliefs about it.

I don’t see why all this is necessary. You don’t have to explain yourself and they don’t have to understand. It is their job to love and accept.

All the arguing in the world will change nothing. Not until they accept you as an individual capable of making your own choices will they accept you being gay.

@Snarp… I think you are oversimplifying here. Though of course I agree with you that Paul is a deuchebag.

Paul’s letters* are the earliest Christian documents we have. They are usually dated around 50 A.D. The gospels—our only source for the so-called “teachings of Christ”—are typically dated several decades later, sometimes (in the case of John) as late as 90 or 100 A.D.

You said that Paul is “obsessed with very strict laws,” implying that Jesus was not. Well, it’s not so simple, because there isn’t any single “Jesus” portrayed in the gospels. Each gospel was edited and partially written by a sectarian (or group of sectarians), decades after Paul and more than half-a-century after the actual Jesus was around, each with their own ideas about who Jesus was and what his theology should be. The Jesus in the synoptic gospels (Mark, Matthew and Luke) is very different from the Jesus in John. And the Jesus in Matthew, in particular, is actually very obsessed with strict laws. For example:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfil. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. —Matthew 5:17

Some scholars actually interpret this passage as a repudiation of Paul for Paul’s views on circumcision. Paul rejected the legal necessity of circumcision and often said that the law was not necessary to follow (even though it was good) because now we have Jesus’ magical sacrifice to save us. The author of Matthew seems to explicitly reject this view, and even seems to refer directly to Paul himself with the word “least” (because Paul identified as the “least of the apostles).

So, I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Paul is more or less legalistic or strict than the Jesus of the gospels because (1) there isn’t any coherent, singular “Jesus” portrayed in the four gospels, and (2) some versions of the gospel-Jesus are more law-obsessed than Paul.

In any case, Jesus was also a deuchebag. “Turn the other cheek” is nice and all, but let’s not forget Jesus also said “I have come not to bring peace but the sword,” and he commanded his followers to abandon their families, said “anyone not for me is against me,” constantly threatened his followers with torture and hellfire (both explicitly and in parable form), and in general displays all the attributes of a standard cult leader on a power-trip.

*Some of the letters attributed to Paul, like Hebrews, were not actually written by Paul. It was common practice in ancient times to attribute letters and text to famous historical or even legendary figures (for example, we have Roman-era Jewish texts attributed to Adam and Enoch). The fancy religious-studies word for this is “pseudepigrapha.”

@Qingu pseudepigrapha…nice…learned something new today

Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. I am a Christian not a Paulian. I don’t follow Paul, I follow Jesus.

You don’t have to prove anything to your parents. Don’t even put a dog in that fight because once you have, you’ll already have lost.

Edit to add- I’m Presbyterian (PCUSA) and you are more than welcome to worship with us anytime you like.

@Snarp ; Paul was Jewish with Roman citizenship. He was a tent maker. I think you have him confused with matthew, who was also Jewish, but worked for Rome as a tax collector.

@Qingu Very interesting. However, most Christians would probably view the gospels as the most important part of the New Testament, whatever their historical position, and while Jesus makes some statements in support of the law, they tend to be general in nature, while Paul seems to delight in providing very detailed lists of rules for all sorts of people.

@Judi Really? Wonder where I got that, seems like it’s what I always heard. But that sort of thing does have tendency to be wrong.

Nature vs Nurture.. everyone has that wrong the truth is: Nurture is your nature.

Everything we know and do is a result of our history. This fact can seem too obvious to state but most (like 99.9%) people neglect the full impact of the idea.

- You didn’t ask to be born.
– You didn’t ask for your genetics
– You didn’t ask for whatever treatment you got growing up from your dad, from your peers, from your mom or from ANYone..
– You didn’t learn English voluntarily
– You didn’t choose your sexual preference.

Everything about you was given to you. You could almost blame your parents for what you are except.. they didn’t choose any of these things about themselves. Somehow, absolutely everything that you are came from somewhere else. Every word in your vocabulary, every idea of morality..

Nothing is your fault.

1. I believe that the whole nature versus nurture argument is a moot argument. I believe, that you are either born gay, or you become gay due to sexual trauma. Obviously that answer doesn’t help your question at all. Let me dig a little deeper. If you are born gay, you are born gay… there is really no need to explain that part of the answer any further. How do you become gay? The ways I believe this is possible are through abuse. I only figured it was through sexual abuse… but now that you have posed this question I think psychological trauma would play a role in it as well. How much of a role? I don’t know. I think it is that big of a deal not being around guys your own age. I think what you said about not relating to your father, and wanting to get his approval, or any male approval for that matter. In my opinion, based on a lot of other reading I have done, is child on child abuse. A lot of people don’t think that is a problem, but it certainly is.

2. I saw a youtube video on this recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usF2HOn8R_Q
It was pretty good, and the guy has a nice body. ;) And he answers your third question.

3. I think Christianity is interpreted wrong.

Sorry it took so long, I found myself on youtube when I went to find that video… I was sort of in a youtube trance going from fail video to painful mistakes. It all started when it suggested I watch car surfing. My A.D.D. kicked in didn’t it?

Back up a minute, and look at what you wrote from a logic perspective:

__I have a very sensitive personality, and my parents believe that during my growth, my father was too hard on me. It wasn’t that he didn’t love me; totally the opposite, but he did it in the stern military man way. Harsh and rough. As a result I didn’t feel any love from him… I had just moved from one country to the other… My parents believe that I didn’t get the proper same-gender “attention” and so was craving for it.__

Are you saying that at the core of this, your parents believe you’re gay as a consequence of your father’s actions—being too hard on you, moving you to a different country, not giving you enough male-bonding attention? If that’s true, then according to their code, isn’t their issues really about your father’s eternal damnation based upon their own religious code? It’s not about you actually being gay and your salvation. It’s their own guilt.

First of all, I’m really sorry that you have to go through this. What your parents are asking for, a “throwdown,” sounds really unhealthy for their relationship with you. It’s really mentally and emotionally exhausting to go up against your parents in a battle of wits. Instead of having to prove to them that it’s right for you to be gay, is there a way you could have a less confrontational talk with them, and just let them know where you’re coming from? It might be helpful if you could have this conversation with a family counselor, just so there is someone rational and impartial with you while this talk is happening.

It might also be helpful to contact an organization like pflag or smyal. It could help your parents to be in touch with other parents who are in their position. I don’t think that one big discussion will do much to change their minds- if anything, it will probably only make them angry- but they might gradually come to accept that you are gay. SMYAL might have some good resources for someone who is dealing with unaccepting parents.

@Qingu makes a good point about Leviticus. The main passages used to support the bible’s stance on homosexuality are Leviticus and the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. In Leviticus, the language is pretty clear. Leviticus 18:22 is the line people quote most often- “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.” But Leviticus 20:13 says, ”” ‘If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.” Many Christians are against homosexuality, but most modern American Christians would never say that someone should be put to death for being gay. There are a lot of things in Leviticus that don’t make sense by today’s standards and that we would never practice. It’s just picking and choosing for Christians to enforce that line of scripture but not others (even though nobody wants to return to the days of stoning adulterers and selling daughters into slavery.) Here is a link to Leviticus 18. This website is really easy to navigate and it may help to give Leviticus a once-over.

Part of the problem with Sodom and Gomorrah is that it is very open to interpretation. It’s unclear that the passage is referring to homosexuality because the events in the story are murky and the language is ambiguous. Here is a good argument against it.

Best of luck with your parents…

@Snarp, good points, I agree!

@mowens, if there are environmental factors to homosexuality, sexual “trauma” is certainly not the only one.

Maybe if you go into the conversation with your parents as a “pupil,” wanting to learn why they think the way they do, and what their interpretation of the Bible is, they’ll be more civil. If they think they’re teaching you something, rather than debating you on something, perhaps it will be a little lighter.

Many have mentioned that there are lots of silly “laws” in the Old Testament along with the homosexuality statements (wearing clothing made of two different fibers, eating at Red Lobster, etc.). This is true. But there are Christians who believe that the difference with homosexuality is that it is listed as a separate kind of law. There are ceremonial laws, general laws, and cleanliness laws, sexuality laws, etc. So, the eating shellfish is ok, but having same sex is not. I have yet to understand this logic, but be prepared in case this comes up with your parents. Ask them why they think the different kind of laws matter in terms of importance. Also ask them why they think a law that God told Moses to tell the Israelites has anything to do with a modern day you.

I agree that homosexuality is probably a combination of nurture and nature. I do not think you can be “changed” from it, just like no one can be “changed” into it.

Christianity and homosexuality are certainly compatible, as there are many interpretations of biblical text itself and many ways to use it practically today.

Christianity isn’t wrong. Christians who believe they are the absolute are. There are a million different opinions on every verse and theory and not every one of them can be right/wrong. If you are truly a believer and wish to continue as a Christian, then you have do the best you can with what you believe in your heart. Every Christian struggles with this, not just gays.

I wish you so much luck and I hope you’ll keep us posted.

@Saturated_Brain Just re-read my answer and realized there was a typo? Freudian slip? Meant to say “My heart goes out to you” instead wrote “My hurt goes out to you!” Sorry about that!

This is a difficult answer to make because I understand how disappointing it must sound, but I just wanted to remind you that some relationships, even with one’s own parents, can become too toxic to abide. You cannot convince them that their view of the etiology of your homosexuality is wrong (even though evidence builds with every passing day that you are born with your sexual orientation) nor can you reconcile their Christianity with your homosexuality. (You can certainly reconcile being both Christian and homosexual for yourself if you choose.)

Sometimes you have to bail. If you’re lucky you might be able to tell them that despite the unbridgeable gulf of misunderstand between you, you love them, and that they should try to just love you back unconditionally. If they can’t, well it wasn’t your fault.

@Qingu I agree. I just hadn’t thought of it.

1. There are several Christian denominations that accept all sexual orientations. If you want to live a Christian lifestyle, seek them out.

2. You don’t have to confront anyone about who you are. It takes 2 sides to have an argument, all you have to do is refuse to engage your parents in this discussion.

3. Don’t go muddying the waters by trying to put blame or allowing your parents to blame anyone for your sexual orientation. 90% of sensitive people with overbearing fathers (in the past it was overbearing mothers and weak fathers blamed) are straight. Also military kids and well traveled kids or any subset you can name.

4. Discussions about why someone is straight or gay is as pointless as why they are left-handed or right handed, so why waste time on it. If you need to talk about it go to people who understand what you are talking about. There are support groups for young people coming to grips with what you are dealing with-your parents don’t,

5. You don’t need anyone’s validation, so don’t demand it from your parents.

I know you said no short answers, but I have to give you this one. Check out this site, especially this section. It may provide you with the ammunition you seek.

1. Well the whole nature vs nurture thing is a really difficult question to answer. It is almost impossible to know where one ends and the other begins. I have heard that there are studies that have been done that suggest that it is genetic but I have no idea how accurate they are. I find it easy to believe that a person can be born without a tendency to go either way and “become” either straight or gay for some psychological reason but your parents’ theory is hard to swallow. I’ve heard that same theory thrown around before and it sounds like a lot of bullshit to me.
I don’t know what causes your sexual orientation but, whatever the cause, it is what it is and I don’t think it can be changed. So your parents will just have to learn to live with it.

2. Well the problem is that the Bible is always contradicting itself. Christianity can be compatible with homosexuality, depending on the interpretation. One way to approach convincing them is to point out all the things in the Bible that they don’t believe. Like how right in the same area that the Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination it says that eating shellfish is an abomination and that people wearing clothing of two different kinds of fabrics should be stoned to death. It also says that disobedient children should be stoned and rape victims should be forced to marry the rapist.
I watched an interesting episode of 30 days recently that dealt with changing someone’s mind about homosexuality, it’s worth watching
http://www.hulu.com/watch/5293/30-days-straight-man-in-a-gay-world

3. Well I’m an atheist, I don’t buy into Christianity or any other religion because I don’t see evidence for them. I wish you luck in you quest for the truth.

Schedule a meeting with your parents, your religious advisor and you to help resolve the issue with the “authority” and not just their interpretation. If this doesn’t work for you, join a support group for others in your own situation.

I haven’t read the previous answers, so this one stands alone for now.

1. It just doesn’t matter. Being gay is, in my opinion, a state of mind – but one that you cannot easily change, it at all. It is not a choice, it is a variation of the human mind that causes different attractions. Some people like taller men, others like more curved women, and some people happen to like people just the same as themselves. I do not like overt homosexuality, because I am not gay and I cannot imagine what it is like to be gay, but rationally speaking there is nothing inherently wrong about it. That is my personal preference, so my choice is to stay away from bars that are classically gay etc. It doesn’t matter why you are gay, what matters is that you accept it once you are sure of the fact, and then determine what you are to do about it. You may be able to change it. Some people cannot stop smoking, while others can stop in a heartbeat and never touch them again. You may be able to become a heterosexual, or you may not. It all depends on the plasticity of your brain and your strength of will – but even if you can, do you want to?

2. The Bible condemns homosexuality over and over again. It calls it an abomination, and issues direct commands not to engage in homosexual activities. You can find the verses for yourself with any good concordance.

3. Christianity is certainly wrong, not just on this issue, but also on almost every other social matter it comments on. It has a warped view of morality, and although Jesus had some good ideas, he was almost unique in this. The Bible is not something worth basing your choice of meat on (certain types are forbidden), let alone something as important as which relationships you engage in. I find it interesting that the same book that condemns feminism also condemns homosexuality, albeit more severely, yet one is touted as fact and the other is quietly slipped out the back door. Let your own intelligence guide you to a higher view of morality, and hopefully you can resolve this issue with your parents.

Whatever you choose, it is bound to be unpleasant. You may become more distant from your parents, you may have to deny your current urges, or you may have to completely change your view on life and move away from the (harmful) religious paradigm. Any major change like this is bound to be traumatic, even if it is a change for the better.

@Saturated_Brain – Remember, you have a lot of love and wise support here; don’t be afraid to turn to us.

Some forms of Christianity are wrong about their discrimination of homosexuals. But most religions do evolve over time. Tell your parents about the slavery example. The New Testament tells slaves to obey their masters. Today we have a different view. Almost all modern Christians do not support slavery. Maybe this Wikipedia article about the view of homosexuality will help convince your parents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_hermeneutics#Trajectory_hermeneutics

@Saturated_Brain I can’t offer any advice but I may be able to put a smile on your face, remember this?

@RareDenver yesss!!!

@le_inferno I love @Saturated_Brain little ola, bonjour all the way through, and your English accent rocks you could be a real life princes, lol

lol thank you @RareDenver

Show your parents this
http://truthsetsfree.net/study.pdf

I have nothing to add but my best wishes. I’m sorry you are going through this. {hugs}

@Simone_De_Beauvoir, great link!

@ALL you wonderful people

I am so sorry that I haven’t been able to get back to this, especially after all of the answers you’ve given. Pretty ridiculous I know, not being able to get back to one’s own question. But things have been so crazy over the past few days that I simply didn’t have any time at all to devote the time needed to such a huge issue.

And it seems like this trend will continue over the next two weeks. As of this current moment I’m typing this message from my grandparents’ computer overseas. Yeah, I’m holidaying and I don’t think it’s a good idea to answer this question on a shared computer in a tiny room frequently accessed by everyone (including my parents). I’ll only be back home on the 13th and by then I’ll have the time.

You all have devoted so much effort into your answers and I want to be able to repay that, but I ask all of you to be patient please, cause I won’t be able to do so till two weeks.

My boyfriend himself has also asked a similar question on another forum he frequents, and the plan is that after I come back from my vacation we’ll spend a day sitting down together and sifting through the answers and the various materials recommended.

Ack… Guys… I really can’t spend any more time here. My sister has been poking her head over my shoulder, and I’m really afraid she read the title of the question. And I think my brother might have seen what I was talking about. This isn’t something I want them to know about till I’m ready…

I’ll see you guys after the 13th of December!

@RareDenver However.. I did peek at what you posted out of morbid curiosity. And.. Noooo…. You didn’t….. Oh my gosh memories.. Haha..

Wow…I totally missed this question…where the fuck was I?

Anyway, I’ll PM you when you get back. :)

This is a story I wrote for you and others like you:

“The Pastor and the Gay Man”

A pastor and a gay man both are involved in a head on car collision. Both were very religious and it was early Sunday morning, and they were on their way to separate churches. While waiting in the lobby of heaven to be judged, the pastor and the gay man were able to get to know each other. The pastor had 3 kids and a wife, and he wondered what was to happen to his family. The gay man was in love with another man, and they had been in a committed relationship for about 9 years, and together they had 3 kids (dogs).
Both were distraught about having just died and all, but they were both very knowledgeable about God’s word. The men were not perfect by any means, and both should have been condemned to death according to Leviticus, and various other books of the Bible. Peter came to both of the men, and let them know that surely their time of judgment was about to begin, but he needed to go talk with God about a few things that happened earlier.
While he was gone, Peter asked both men to guard the gate, and gave each one a copy of the book of life. Peter said to the men, “Let no man pass that is unworthy of the kingdom…be sure and remember that you cannot get into heaven through works alone.” Both men became nervous, and neither one wanted to decide someone else’s fate, but obviously they had no choice. What were they going to do, say no?
The man quickly took sides at the gate, because the line was dreadfully long, and they had a lot of work to do. The pastor carefully took his job very seriously, studying everyone’s book and making sure they were worthy. He knew that his job was a serious one, and he didn’t want to let anyone into heaven that didn’t deserve it. There were robbers, murderers, fornicators, prostitutes, liars, and shrimp eaters, and most of them were turned away by the pastor since at the time of their death they were still actively sinners. However, the gay man didn’t seem to be doing his job. When those same robbers, murders, fornicators, prostitutes, liars, and shrimp eaters came up to his side of the gate, he wouldn’t even read their Book, he would just look at them, smile, and let them enter.
The pastor just knew that was the end for the gay man. He just knew that Peter would send him straight to hell if he knew who he just let into God’s kingdom. When Peter returned the men were very excited. They knew their time of judgment was coming soon. Peter asked the pastor, “How did everything go while I was gone? “The pastor said, “Well, it was tough, but I really think I was fair. There were a lot of sinners that I had to turn away”. Peter looked at the pastor with sadness. He then asked the gay man the same question. The man said, “Well, personally I couldn’t turn away anyone. Who am I to decide who is allowed into the kingdom of God? I myself and not worthy…I fall so short.” Peter was filled with great joy and ran to tell God what the gay man had just done. God then came out to the gate to specifically see this man for himself. God looked at the gay man, gave him a crown and said “Servant, well done.”
Terrified for his soul the pastor fell to his knees and begged for the Lord’s forgiveness. God looked at the pastor and said, “My child, do not be ashamed, for I know that it was in your heart to do right by me.” God then looked at the gay man and said, “Before I let you into my Kingdom, will you please judge one more person for me?” The gay man said “Anything for you my Lord”. The gay man took his side at the gate again, and the pastor walked up to him. The pastor looked into his eyes with deep sadness, but then the sadness quickly turned into joy as the gay man smiled at him, and let him into heaven. -Matthew 7:1–6, NIV

@wytby
That was beautiful. :)

@wytby I don’t see how that story makes any kind of meaningful commentary on homosexuality. All it’s saying is “don’t judge others.” That doesn’t mean homosexuality is okay in Christian doctrine. Humans may not be able to judge, but God still can, and it’s not unreasonable to infer he’s just not down with homosexuality. Christians can guess how they’ll be judged by studying the lifestyle the Bible outlines for them. Not judging murderers, prostitutes, etc, is different than intuitively knowing that their lifestyle is sinful. Similarly, there are people who do not judge homosexuals as people, but disapprove of their lifestyle. I’m not claiming myself as one of these, but I’m just pointing out the holes in your intended message.

Also, I kind of resent that you had God calling the man a “Servant.” A man/slave relationship between God and his people leaves us with a sense of an infantile God who has not grown up enough to have learned to lose himself in love. Such a God, though he may be a kind boss, remains a master of slaves- even if they’re well-treated slaves. In fact, it seems that modern atheism since Nietzche is a rejection of the idea that the deepest truth about mankind is that we are slaves.

But if one takes the Holy Trinity seriously, he too must reject that idea. In Christianity, the deepest truth about people is that they are loved. This is made known to us by the divinity of Christ, God’s son, who lived and died sheerly through love, and opens up our connection to the Father.

It is important to acknowledge, in light of this thread, that a Christian God unconditionally accepts us, even though we are sinners. His love comes to us whether or not we sin. But this love is meant to begin in us the difficult transformation from sinners into saints. Whether or not homosexuality and saintliness are incompatible is a question I cannot answer.

One of the reasons I don’t buy religion and the god creature is that he/she/it has too many middle people interpreting he/she/lts will and telling the rest of us mere mortals how to live our lives. If he/she/it has a special game plan (other than the golden rule) on how anyone should lead their lives then I want a direct directive. I don’t want any middle person relaying the message.

My theory is that if I lead my life as best I can, helping others along the way, then this god creature could not possibly be pissed about who I love. And if he/she/it is then he/she/it is pretty damned petty.

Greetings all. Rather out of season to come back to this question during this period, but I thought it’d be weird for me to re-appear on the main site without revisiting this topic.

Four weeks have gone by and I’ve hardly broached this subject with my parents, mostly because life has been going past with so many things to do. I’ve gathered more info and am planning to go through my resources soon enough (at this rate it’ll probably be sometime next year).

However, there have been updates on the situation in general.

1. I’m starting to get more and more disillusioned with religion. I mean, I believe in something out there, but I have no idea who has it right. The Christians? The Buddhists? The Muslims? The Hindus? It’s pressing on me more and more. Just today I was attending the Christmas service in my old church and found myself going, “Really?” at some of the stuff being said. There was even one time when I thought to myself, “All these people here are a bunch of sheep.” Generalisations are bad I know, but something’s not right. All I know is that right now I need to go to find out for myself. I need to know the truth. And yes, I realise that that’s a journey I can take only by myself.

2. Just a few days ago, I had a discussion with my mom regarding this subject. We didn’t try to prove or disprove each other. She didn’t want to, because she said that I didn’t want to change. And yet she told me that she wanted me to prove her wrong. She really wanted me to provide evidence that homosexuality is compatible with Christianity.

At the same time, she told me that if I wanted to live my life like this, I had to make my own decisions. I had to be a responsible person. She said that at the end of it all, she just wanted me to live my life responsibly. And when I told her that we might disagree on what “responsible” means (for example, sexual activity [no, I’m not into one night stands, in case anyone gets that idea]), she paused, sighed, and then said that I then needed to go and find out for myself what I believed being responsible is.

I guess the thing that got through to me is that my mom loves me. Like crazy. And you know, I crazily love my family too. The thought of having a wedge stuck in between me and them because of this literally wrenches my heart. My mom said that we didn’t need to talk about homosexuality and that even though there’d probably always be this unpleasant undercurrent running in our lives, as long as we didn’t mention it.. Well… It wouldn’t come up.. And that it wouldn’t be a good idea to introduce my family to my boyfriend, not because he’s a bad person, but because he’s my boyfriend. Yet.. She reaffirmed that I’d always be welcome at home.

Sigh… I really want to prove that homosexuality and Christianity is compatible to my parents. As many of you have said, this might turn out to be a fruitless endeavour, but I love them, and I think that at the very least I should give it a shot. And if I have to prove to them that Christianity is essentially wrong on this stance, or that the Bible isn’t The document to follow, well… I’m just smiling wryly to myself and thinking that that might result in another decade or two of pain. If this whole exercise does turn out to be useless, the one silver lining is that I can look back to that moment fifty years down the road and tell myself that at least I tried. This dark dull cloud hanging over me is horrible. I’ll start on my research soon enough. But until then, I suppose that a step in the right direction has been taken. Time for me to propel this situation forward.

And though it may sound silly, especially in the light of this answer and this topic, for what it’s worth, merry Christmas folks. As those Hallmark cards tell us, it’s a season of goodwill. And love. And family.

<Gives a toast>

@Saturated_Brain So much love and so much pain. I empathize with your feelings and wish you the best on your journey of self-discovery.

<Here’s a glass raised to you!>

Why do you have to prove to your parents that they are wrong and you are right? Neither of you will succeed simply by talking or arguing about it. It looks like the need to be right is more important than your sexual orientation or philosophical outlook. That’s just sad. The only way to prove anything to your parents is to live your life as an honorable, ethical homosexual.

@janbb Thanks for that. =)

@galileogirl Well.. Trust me when I say that I know that I have to live my own life. But also, please trust me when I say that talking or arguing about issues like this can change things. For one, talking and arguing and researching about things changed my dad’s mind about throwing me out of the house if I hadn’t “turned straight” by twenty one. I admit that I haven’t done much substantial work yet, but doing what I’m going to do isn’t just going to affect the relationship between my parents and I, it’s going to affect my whole take and view of the whole world and life in general. And that’s something I know I need to do if I’m going to make any headway on this issue.

The need to be right doesn’t take precedence over my sexual orientation or philosophical outlook. But it’s a pretty darn high priority because I don’t want a rift in my family.

Proving anything to them by living my life as an ethical and honourable homosexual is a pretty good way to do so, but I’m sure you understand that doing so would take years, and me trying to do this right here right now is an effort to shorten the need for all those years.

I hope that it’s clearer now why I’m doing the things I am.

Give it time. Eventually once they realize the caring and support you get from your partner they may accept him just fine. Right now they are just worried that you will not have the good future they envisioned for you. Instead, they will have to come to trust the good future you envision for yourself.

@Saturated_Brain I hope you and your family can come to some sort of harmony on this issue that works for you all and Merry Christmas

@Saturated_Brain It may be discouraging that your discussions are not going anywhere for now, but at least your parents are listening a little. These things always take time, and it will be quite a while before your parents are comfortable with the idea.

I suggest you read the works of Daniel Dennett. He has done a lot of work on philosophy of the mind which you may find useful. He believes, as I do, that human thought is wholly contained in neurological processes. Hopefully this can shed some light on what homosexuality is, and why it is a normal evolutionary variant.

“I’m starting to get more and more disillusioned with religion. I mean, I believe in something out there, but I have no idea who has it right.”
The answer as far as I can tell is no one. The problem with searching for the truth is that no single person or teaching can ever be completely consistent or true. I am confident in my beliefs, but only because I think I am more correct than anyone else. As far as the religious side of this goes, I hope you are not disillusioned for long, and soon realise that religion does not have to be a part of a happy successful life. I say that no one is correct, but I know who is wrong – all those who are vindictive, claim they have the sole truth, judge people as if they are lesser beings, and deny the capacity of a person for rational thought.

@FireMadeFlesh
Side note:
Daniel Dennett is also known as a spokesman of atheism. Dropping his name around Christian parents (if they are of the sort that looks things up) might not help. Particularly if it’s in the context of an author whose works you’ve been reading in support of your homosexuality.

@Fyrius I agree, I just mentioned his work for the benefit of @Saturated_Brain rather than as something to bring up with his parents.

Naturally.

Latest update on the situation:

I talked more to my parents. As of now, I feel like I’m in a very crappy position. Last night, I went talking to them, my mom was storming in and out of the room, going all, “Oh don’t talk to him! He is so convinced that he is right and that we are wrong! There’s no point!” and my dad was getting more and more pissed off by her. Even with my dad, he told me that even if I am gay because of all the reasons I listed, he doesn’t care. He said that the most important question to him is “Do I want to change?”

I said no.

My dad, however, told me to go and talk to this guy http://christopheryuan.com/, an “ex-gay” who did “change”. I had already promised him long ago that I’d do so, and while I’ve been dragging it, I guess I should just do it. My take on it is this: as long as I know what I’m doing, as long as I’m doing something that’ll bring me closer to the truth, as long as I can face my parents and tell them that I was open-minded and talked to “their side”, I’ll ultimately be better off for it.

My dad didn’t want to debate the Bible with me, even though I wanted to tell him what I thought of those verses used against homosexuals. His reasoning goes thus: Well, since you don’t believe in the Bible anyway, there’s no point. If I say something to counter what you’ve told me, you’ll just throw up your hands and tell me that you don’t believe in the Bible anyway. I found this extremely unfair, seeing as he still wanted me to change, and when I asked him why I should, he initially told me that it’s because he follows the Bible.

When I pointed out the contradiction in his stance, that was when I found out that my parents’ views went deeper than religion. They then told me that even before they became Christian they never thought that homosexuality was right. To them, normal was when boy meets girl, boy dates and marries girl and has family with girl.

That was when the bombshell dropped. Their stance is just so arbitrary. It goes against their moral code, and they get their moral code from their upbringing. I don’t know, but part of me thinks that it’s so convenient for my parents that the Bible fits their moral stance. Maybe I’m wrong on this, maybe God gave them their moral stance. I’m not going to argue that because there’s no way I can prove or disprove this, but at that point, I just felt like giving up.

My dad once told me that Gandhi’s in hell because he wasn’t a Christian. My dad thinks that the Catholic faith in general isn’t Christian (I have a really good Catholic friend. He said that she’s a very nice girl. I then flatly added, “But she’s a Catholic right?” He said, “Yeah. She’s a Catholic” [although he does say that some Catholics do have it right]). My mom thinks that Anglicans aren’t Christian. The more and more I think about it, the more depressed I get. Are my parents really like this? I wonder how they’ll react when they find out that my brother believes that we all have to lie to ourselves in order to believe in religion.

Can I ever prove that homosexuality isn’t wrong or right, but just is by this? I’m beginning to lose hope. My parents will accept me and always love me because I’m their son, but they’ll never be able to accept this part of my life. If this is the case, they won’t meet my boyfriend. They won’t happily discuss relationships with me (because it’s a gay relationship). Guess what? They won’t even attend my wedding. Do you know how much that pains me?

Sure, it’s all very far in the future, but it’s still depressing to think about. To be honest, I’m at a kinda loss. Right now, I guess I’ll just contact the guy, talk to him, talk to my boyfriend and another really good friend of mine who’s sharing my struggles with me, and just progress slowly from there.

@Saturated_Brain ; It’s time to just give them time. This is really traumatic for them. Their hopes and dreams for you have been shattered and they need time to digest what you have told them. Don’t close the door on them, but continue your quest for the truth. his is a hard path, as those who have gone before you I am sure will attest. I will keep you in my prayers. ((HUGS))

Actually, if your dad thinks Gandhi is in hell because he wasn’t a Christian, and both of them think other Christian denominations aren’t “Christian,” there may not be much hope that they will change. You will have to accept what they can give and go on with your life, hoping that just as they “became” Christian, they can become less judgmental.

Often, as parents age and see that their child is successful even while following a path they were certain would lead to no good end their attitudes soften and they may come to accept whoever you marry. Thus, as @Judi says, it’s time to give them time.

Your parents love you, and if they are fortunate they will find a way to reconcile their religious beliefs with your personal circumstances, which cannot be controlled or mended. I devoutly hope this is what happens. However, you must continue to lead your own life, and that includes persuing personal happiness regardless of your (unchosen) sexual orientation.

Since you are willing to see the ex-gay guy, how about making it contingent upon your parents meeting with someone from the local PFLAG group.

It’s name is simply Parents, Friends of Lesbians and Gays.

You really don’t need to go into any more detail than that. If they hope there will be more parents like themselves there that’s fine. They may be hoping to connect with others as fixed in their attitudes as they themselves are.

That’s hardly likely. But they will encounter other parents who love their kids like crazy and have found a place of acceptance.

It couldn’t hurt to try.

I agree with @pdworkin; your primary goal at this point must be to establish your own identity and embrace who you are. The relationship with your parents will be a rocky road unless they can reconcile their strict religious beliefs with your homosexuality. I think you’re still at university, is that correct? Would it be possible for you not to live at home for a time while you are going through your own process of individuation? I think some space and time for both you and your parents might help rather than keeping on butting heads; if you can move out in a non-hostile way, it would be even better. As I’ve said to you before on this thread, my kids have done and said things that have disturbed me (although not as extremely as this) and with time (and for us, more talking) the love has been stronger than the differences. But I do think they and especially you need some time to become and accept who you are. You are working hard to become your own person and I admire you greatly.

@Saturated_Brain Step back and look at where you are in this situation. It looks like you are the mirror image of your parents. It’s not about whether or not Christianity is compatible with homosexuality, it’s about proving each other is wrong and must change their belief. Why?

It sounds like you have turned your home into a battlefield. Is that how you want to live? What benefit do you get from upsetting your parents when it is obvious that nothing good is coming from it?

It is my experience when some young people are trying to assert themselves as adults, they have to find a way to differentiate from their parents and they will start a conflict with their parents. By doing so they are saying, “See I am different and for me to be right, you have to be wrong” What you have actually done is prove on a superficial level a difference of opinion. On a deeper level, you have proven you are almost exactly like them in the way you communicate and interact. Sorry @Saturated_Brain it’s very hard to escape nature + nurture.

@galileogirl Sigh… In a nutshell, are you telling me that I should simply agree to disagree?

@galileogirl
I think you miss the point. Or at least you address a different point that’s not really helpful for the main subject of this thread.
I don’t think @Saturated_Brain is the stereotypical rebellious teenager trying on purpose to be different from his mum and dad. On the contrary, he seems to wants to bury the hatchet and get along again. The reason why he wants to convince his parents he’s not wrong is not a matter of ego inflation, but a matter of being accepted the way he is.
(Please correct me wherever I’m wrong, @Saturated_Brain.)

But I also think agreement to disagree might be one of the better options here. :/

As much as I hate to admit it, I agree with gaileo. All this trying to “prove” that you are worthy of existing, as you are, will get you nowhere. Do you feel the need to explain and justify who you are? Do you need to prove that you are indeed gay?

Be who you are. Date, go out with friends, have some sex. When they see you are happy and that your gayness isn’t going anywhere, they will accept you. They might not approve, but who cares? You still deserve to live your life without their constant probing and scorn.

@Fyrius Life is too short to try to move the immovable. He is never going to get his parents to change their minds. They will have to come to that on their own. They obviously are not going “to agree to disagree” because that would admit the possibility, however slight, that he might have a point. The only reason to carry on in this situation is if he is getting something from it. When you run up against a stone barrier, you can throw yourself against it until you are bloody and broken. Or you can turn left and walk around it.

@tinyfaery I will take your agreement with me as a compliment, even if it was hard to give =P.

Okay.. I’ve just woken up, and have decided to try to clear things up in this thread with regards to my attitude (thanks @Fyrius). I accept that you both have valid points @tinyfaery and @galileogirl. However, my parents do say that for now, it seems like we have to agree to disagree (or at least my dad says that).

It really looks like that for now my best move is to be a good person and who I am. Even though I really didn’t want it to end like this (since any progress can only be measured in slow, long, painful years), I don’t have any choice.

My home has been turned into a battlefield. But look at it in this way: If it wasn’t, that would be even more cause for worry, especially if my parents had this view. The fact that they care and love me enough to want to spend so much effort and personal pain on me (I’m not the only that’s hurting here) helps to reaffirm me of their love. Now, since we’ve agreed to disagree (or at least to gloss over this issue in my life), I’ll be stuck with a very unpleasant undercurrent for years, if not decades. Not the scenario I was hoping for, but perhaps the only scenario I’m gonna get. What else can I do but live with it? I see now that perhaps there is no use trying to convince them through talk and discussion. I’m going to bury the hatchet and move on now (just FYI, @Fyrius, it wasn’t my intention to do that till now, now that I see there’s no point in further discussion), I’m going to do what you told me to do.

However, the important bit is that I’ve exhausted all other options. I’ve tried, and I’ve failed, but I know that at least I’ve tried.

I’m honestly not sure why you guys take me trying to prove them wrong as a bad thing. By seeing themselves as right, this means that they’ve effectively shut off a very important part of my life from them. They accept me, but they ignore this part of me. As I’ve said many, many, many times before, family is of paramount importance to me. The fact that they’d want to close their eyes and ears and blatantly ignore a part of my life which brings me so much happiness and teaches me so much is very painful. I’m not sure whether you understand that.

Give them time. If they are still rejecting you in 5 years, then you have a real problem. Now you just have a sticky patch.

@Saturated_Brain All I can say is you must be getting something out of living this way, no matter how unhealthy-negative attention is still attention and you continue to try to get validation from strangers. I find that feeding into that isn’t ethical. Peace-out.

You’ve done your best, and it’s time to accept that they can’t deal with this issue. Now, go on and live your life for yourself, be a good guy… hopefully, someday, they’ll have a change of heart. {hugs} to you!

@Saturated_Brain I’m not sure that everyone here gets, but I think many of us do, how important your parents are to you and how painful it is for you not to have their validation right now. I don’t think you wre butting heads with them out of some strange need, it’s clear you love them and you want their approval which is not unreasonable. It just seems at this point, and you realize it yourself, you’ve talked all you can and now you have to give it time. Work on finding your own happiness now, sweetie, don’t close the door on your parents, and in time, as @pdworkin says, you and they may well be in a better place with each other.

@Saturated_Brain it sounds like you are ready to join the rest of us who wait for our parents to grow up in regards to whichever issue. I don’t understand why parents think that they will help us to change into perfect people by choosing not to accept us.

Typically all of our parents come from a time when no one could just pick up a book on parenting at the book store. I understand that my parents are never going to accept me the way I accept my children, the way I used to need them to. I recognize that they are a different generation. Perhaps this principle applies to your parents as well.

I hope this helps.

@noraasnave
If you already have kids of your own, @Saturated_Brain‘s parents are probably closer to your generation than that of your mum and dad.