Do you find it a little sad when people use bad grammar, and don't even realize it's bad grammar?

It’s times like these I must ask myself, is our children learning?

@holden LOL! Ya know, I just ain’t sure sometimes!

Well, the kids are being taught. However, unless they make a conscious effort they’re going to speak the way their parents speak….

I feel sad that some people reproduce. Is that the same?

Yes I do and I think I notice it more since I live in Texas. Some people might say its just the vernaculars of Texas but I just think its bad grammar.

Sad and irritating. I can feel my IQ dropping when I have to listen to people speak like that.
@Ailia I agree. The whole vernacular or dialect argument is just a cop out.

@Facade Isn’t it even worse when they expect you to talk like that too?

I find that it’s worse when they do know, but use bad grammar anyway. Some people revel in their ignorance.

@Ailia Omg, yes! I can’t tell you how much I was made fun of when I went to a public school for the first time for “acting like a white girl.” The ignorant bastards literally will never learn…

I personally believe that US Americans are unable to do so because some people out there in our nation don’t have maps and I believe that our education like such as South Africa and the Iraq everywhere like such as and I believe that they should our education over here in the US should help the US should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries so we can build up our future for our children.

@Ailia Yes, it’s bad grammar, but it’s the mode of speaking there, and here in Kansas too. Drives me nuts. However, it hasn’t been my experience that anyone “expects” me to talk that way. It’s been my experience that because of the way I talk (properly) folks think I’m weally, weally ‘mart!

@Facade…What???

@Val123 What what?

@Facade How does one talk like a white girl? (Hmmm…I guess I should know. My kids tell me I glow in the dark…Their dad gave them a nice infusion of Indonesian, so they’re all darker than me, brown eyes and stuff. I’m a minority at my own dinner table!… but still, I’m confused!)

@Val123 Using proper grammar, (as proper as the general population, not that it tends to be right) and not the venacular, as an African American can be termed “acting white.” You find this a lot in the South where the vernacular is sometimes seen as a facet of African American identity and culture.

@Facade Yeah they probably won’t but at least you can take comfort in the fact that you know how to speak proper english. Not only that but take heart in the fact that there are others who have gone through the same thing. My friend from Kenya lives in Texas too and she was always called out for “acting like a white girl.” @Val123 I’ve been called smart before by adults but not usually by my peers. They expect me to act like them; which includes bad grammar apparently.

@Val123, @avvooooooo is correct. Couple that with a soft tone and you’ve got a bundle of insults coming. Fuck em

Ugh. When will this stop? Must we always judge people? Must we be so rigid with our communication? Not everyone wants to be so academic. Some people have little access to a “proper” education. If you can get the gist of what is being relayed then that person has effectively communicated.

I guess I like to “revel in my ignorance”. I am a fantastic writer, according to many of my UCLA professors, but I am not going to waste my time and energy doing so on Fluther. I try to be conversational and accessible. I know when my grammar is wrong, most of the time (I’m not going to be so pretentious as to say I know all the grammar rules or that I never make mistakes.), but I am not trying to impress anyone. I’m just trying to answer a question or give my opinion. I have to be sooooo precise with my language and grammar at work, and I am not going to spend my free time obsessing over my writing no matter who judges me.

Psssbtt.

And may I add, I think worse of those who judge and feel it is their place to correct the grammar of others than I do of those who have poor grammar skills; ignorance is always more forgivable than condescension.

@Facade Wow. How self defeating to a whole culture is that???
Well, I love your attitude about it!

@tinyfaery That’s fine!

I seen a few examples of those.

@tinyfaery I don’t think anyone here is talking about having perfect grammar. A simple understanding of subject/verb agreement is fine. I don’t see how speaking correctly equates to being academic. There’s really nothing to obsess over over which to obsess =)

Jesus wept

@Facade Why do you care? Is it causing you pain, contributing to global warming, terrorism? It’s harsh on the ears at first, but if you know what someone means, what’s the big deal? Is there nothing better to focus one’s energy on? Improper, but you know what I mean? Right? What’s the issue?

@Facade Wait! Wait! You said, “There’s really nothing to obsess over over which to obsess =)” But I don’t talk like that! So..it must be wrong!

@tinyfaery I have no idea why I care. I’ve always cared judged others. A character flaw I suppose
@Val123 Dead wrong!

@Facade Well, if you are willing to accept your own flaws it’s a bit hypocritical to not accept the flaws of others. Just sayin’ ;)

@tinyfaery How is improper English a character flaw? I can accept mine, but they’re still wrong lol

Good point.

@Facade Is, “There is nothing over which to obsess” actually correct?
You guys! My point is, it makes me feel SAD because one of these days those people may be in front of a television camera for some reason, and they’ll have no idea how damn ignorant they sound…until they see the broadcast! I think when people are used to talking a certain way, they don’t notice it, but I’d bet they’d see it right away if it was replayed. It would be such an embarrassment for them.

@Val123 Yep, unless things have changed, and it is now all right to end sentences with a preposition.

@Facade Eh! But it’s so clunky!

@Val123 Yea, when you’re not used to hearing it that way, it doesn’t flow

Quote from TFLN : “So i told my advisor i had to drop the class bc the prof said “supposably” and “irregardless” within the 1st 10 minutes of the 1st class; she agreed with me that dropping it was the best choice.”

Speaks for itself!

@Facade I have heard it said that way…by, like Thurston Howell III!

Everyone chill, it’s just Engrish you know
What’s important lies betwixt the line;
If we all love each other, and communicate well
We’ll have fun here on fluther just fine.

@Zen_Again But I like being riled up…~

@Zen_Again I guess my motivation in asking is…well. It’s like this. My husband has a tendency to say things like “We was,” and “They was,” but when he hears it on TV, said by others, he picks it out right away as being wrong, and may repeat it in an exaggerated style and accent…..but how embarrassed would he be if he understood that’s how HE talks. I try to gently correct him every so often, and he doesn’t say “Me and Val….” anymore, but….IDK. He’s in sales, deals with a lot of people. It’s one thing if you’re talking to someone who talks that way. But if he’s talking to someone who uses proper grammar….well. I would be concerned of that person’s impression with me if I said, “We was….”

What have you done to Captain Picard, you fiend?!

I must say that I have been feeling a bit peeved over the question that asked if anyone had ever gifted the Wine of the Month to somebody. What is wrong with using the word “given”? Why do we now say “He gifted the ring to her” instead of “He gave the ring to her”?

I know that some of you feel this is pretentious or silly, but why are we abandoning perfectly good words and tenses in favor of these silly things? It isn’t as if we don’t have a term for something and thus need to invent it. There are new concepts that need terms assigned to them, such as carbon footprint, green-collar, or even flash mob, that have resulted from changes in technology or in concepts.

Sometimes I get confused by the ambiguity of fluther. I have learned it is not acceptable to not date a guy because he is short, that would be shallow. It is not nice to differentiate a person by their race, such as “the Asian bloke or the black guy.”

I wonder what response you would have received if you had posed the question in this manner “Do you hate the poor grammar used in black dialect?” I am guessing you would have been accused of racism.

But you managed to sneak into an area that apparently has not yet become protected by PC or culture. Southerners perceived as red necks and blonde females are still considered fair game and can still be ridiculed without retribution.

We live in a very complex world.

But to answer the question directly, I don’t like to hear bad grammar, I also do not like
gratuitous cursing. So I guess I too fall into that category of Judgemental, but I do it indiscriminately, regardless of your race creed or color, heheheh, wonder what that means.

of all the things in the world, bad grammar isn’t what makes me sad about people

@Val123 , dear val123: It’s all good. I think at this stage (here) I know (practically) every little thing about you and your husband, including this now. I find it fascinating that you “blog” here and discuss things to the minutest of details. Very cool – and brave.

RE. grammar; as you may know by now – I teach TOEFL and ESL. I also instruct teachers. But I meant what I said: communication is key – especially from a certain age. The rest (of the idiosyncracies and nuttiness of English grammar) is either just for fun (if you are so inclined) – or a royal pain in the butt – just as I find Math.

:P

@PretentiousArtist He’ll be back. Meanwhile – enjoy my card from wis.dm days gone.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Didn’t mean to imply that it was the saddest thing in the whole world. There are a million things more important. But it makes me sad because someday they’re liable to embarrass the hell out of themselves and not know it till later.

@Darwin I think it’s very interesting that blonds are still fair game. I’m blond, and I certainly don’t take the jokes to heart! None of the blonds I know take them to heart, and will pass one on just as quick as anyone else. We don’t NEED to be PC protected. Now, why do you suppose that is? Why we don’t take it personally?

@Val123 meh, so what? there are a lot of reasons why people may have bad grammar..socioeconomic status and race and gender might all come into play…I never see lack of education as just that…it always ties into other societal patterns…even for groups of people that use ‘bad’ grammar on purpose, there are reasons…usually ones of rebellion against the status quo…so it’s all about whether or not one cares to be embarrassed and in front of whom…my grammar isn’t always perfect…but if I were around people who thought it’s fine to embarrass me for my grammar, I’d think they’re pathetic and have a simple life…that’s sad, to me

It’s not sad. There is such a thing as universal grammar and it’s not as though they’re unable to communicate because they use ‘was’ instead of ‘were’ (for example). Sometimes it’s a matter of vocabulary, and ‘was’ can mean colloquially what ‘were’ means grammatically.

And anyway I’ve seen @Val123 make grammatical mistakes in the past. She doesn’t realize it. But it doesn’t make me sad. What makes me sad is a prescriptive pseudo-grammarian unaware of his own errors.

I was pretty much talking about rednecks, not any race differentiation.

@absalom If you see a grammatical error on my part, I want to know! (I remember one of the first questions I posted on Wisdm was about grammar and spelling….well, about a year later I learned about the firefox spell check. I had reason, after that, to go back to that first page, and lo! I’d spelled grammar wrong (“grammer”) and…I hosed something else up. I thunked my head on the table but then had to laugh!)

@Val123

I will let you know next time if you do the same for me.

@absalom Deal! (I’m not a master at it, like @facade, but if it’s glaring I’ll see it!) PM or in the thread? You can correct mine in the thread. If it’ll help somebody else, I sure wouldn’t mind.

Call me snobbish if you want, but I find bad grammar to be irritating. I also have low tolerance for those who are inarticulate or long winded . Life is too short to have to put up with such people.

@Val123 Hey hey, I’m no master. I just happen to recall most of what I was taught by my 4th grade English teacher, Mrs. Postlewaite =)

@ratboy’s response should be interesting. =)

Anal swab my back. ‘Sides it’s just wastin’ time to tell blondes “blonde jokes.”

@Facade Well, you’re a lot more knowledgeable about it than I am. My problem is, I can write, but I don’t know the actual rules of English. I majored in Journalism, but flat flunked my English courses! I don’t know dangling darciptals from a hanging adverb. (When I see stuff like that I think, “Hm. Someone’s fly is open!”)

@ratboy I don’t get it….

Whether someone uses poor grammar, has difficulty riding a bike, is unable to blow a bubble or doesn’t know the details of world events…

It really doesn’t worry me in the slightest. We all have different areas in our lives we could improve on but I personally feel it is unfair to judge someone negatively for these weaknesses. I am sure there are individuals out there who may use poor grammar but have an excellent grasp of physics. I would hate for them to judge me for my lack of knowledge in the areas they excel in.

Poor grammar isn’t something I personally loose sleep over. Everyone is different though.

the real problem with grammar is using loose when you mean lose.

Ha, how did I know that someone would scrutinise my post and miss the point I was making…

@Evelyns_Other_Zebra I’m probably guilty of that one!

@Rachienz I guess my main point is (and I always seem to figure out what I really had in mind when I asked the Q, after about 20 answers) is…..are there those out there who would be mortified to realize that their grammar is noticeably not correct to those listening?

@Val123 – ahhh, more the realisation that it is incorrect – being unaware and this working as a detriment.

I get what you’re saying. I was surprised at some of the responses regarding the question as in – feeling strongly towards poor grammar use.

PS: Realisation is spelled differently in New Zealand so I am aware this may appear to be a spelling mistake to some.

@Rachienz Nah…I recognized the British spelling. I was raised on Kipling and Milne…and when I started school I had a hard time (still do) with spelling some words. I want to spell “color” “colour” and..things…Porch, pourch.

I feel smarter than said person. Which is a sad thing to say.

@rooeytoo: “I wonder what response you would have received if you had posed the question in this manner “Do you hate the poor grammar used in black dialect?” I am guessing you would have been accused of racism.”

Probably. Because that dialect isn’t exclusively black. People of all races use it.

@Val123 – lol, yeah, color always looks wrong to me. As does center.

@rooeytoo Bad grammar isn’t exclusive to the black vernacular. There are several different regional dialects, the Southern US having one of them, in which improper grammar runs rampant. The difference is that in other groups, its not as likely that one would be chastised by others for using proper grammar. But poor grammar is everywhere.

@MacBean &@avvoooooo – my question is why is it is seeming acceptable to discriminate against people or classify those who through lack of education or because of growing up in a specific situation, speak in a given fashion.

But if you clarified it further and said something about Afro Americans using a form of slang or lack of grammar, that would be considered racist. And while the slang may not be exclusive to black people, it pretty much began there until others picked up on it so it is black slang.

This question was geared at the people of rural Kansas, while not being racist, it is pretty specific. Apparently though it is okay to be critical of their use of the language.

It seems as if some people are fair game and others are not. I chose Afro American because it came to mind first, there are many others I could have used instead.

Bottom line seems to be, it is not okay to be “racist” but it is okay to be “state-ist.”

@rooeytoo There are plenty of educated people who have poor grammar. My father, for instance, has poor grammar and he has a master’s degree. The reason why people discriminate against people with poor grammar is that its not extremely difficult to learn proper usage, but people don’t care or bother to do it. Most people know that there are things that they’re saying that are not correct, but make no effort to correct their usage. Rural Kansas is like anywhere else, except for the particular incorrect usage that is prevalent in that area more so than other places.

The people who are entirely fair game are those who know better, who have been taught better, but still use incorrect grammar.

While current slang might seem to come from black culture, there is a lot that has developed outside of it that is in current and past usage.

As much as I love grammar, I don’t care if people use “bad” grammar so much. But I do like to make sure grammatical aspects I really like (such as the semicolon) are not forgotten or misused. Judging level of education on grammar doesn’t come off to me as “racist” simply because it’s through that education that you learn proper grammar, so if you were not educated, it would make more sense that you don’t adhere to proper grammar.

@avvooooooo – I must be losing my ability to communicate. The only thing I am saying is that I find it ironic that it is okay to judge, criticize, characterize, profile, whatever, one group of people but it is not acceptable for others. Same action, different target group, one okay, one not.

That’s all I’m trying to say. Am I the only one who sees irony there??? I am not saying it’s right or wrong, it just seems not quite right to me. Now I almost said “kosher” but that would probably not be PC because it is a jewish sort of word, now jeez am I supposed to capitalize jewish, I don’t christian.

Maybe I better just give up before I get in more hot water. And by the way I am not sure if I spelled capitalize the correctly for the usage, hehehehe. Put me in with the poor grammar gang! And I am originally from Pennsylvania!

Poor grammar does bother me a bit. At least try. And I never quite understood why some African Americans have gotten away with “ghetto grammar” for so long. If I spoke in the way that some blacks speak, I’d get some pretty strange glances. Example: We was gonna aks dos people if we’s coulds help em out but they’s said no tank you.” Translation: We were going to ask those people if we could help them out but they said no thank you. If a white person spoke that way, well you can just imagine…

LMAO!! Some of the reply’s in this thread are HILARIOUS!! What if some one is educated enough to know better but still wants to talk slang or replace words?? Sorry but im with tinyfaery on this one in more way’s than one. AIN’T YOU???

I just don’t understand why an educated person would choose to sound ignorant.

@MacBean because, as I’ve mentioned before, for some groups of people this represents a rebellion of sorts against the ‘norm’, it is an act of deviance…because what’s ‘educated’ and what’s ‘ignorant’ holds different meanings to people…and are certainly not static concepts…for all this talk about people liking ‘street’ smarts over ‘book’ smarts, people, apparently, put great emphasis on grammar…

@rooeytoo I understand what you’re saying. It would be ok to post a question, “Why do so many people in rural Kansas use bad grammar.” It would NOT be OK to post, “Why do some black people use such poor syntax, grammar and pronunciation that you can’t even understand them sometimes.”

Dialects can have their own consistent grammar rules and phonetics. ‘We was goin’ to the store’ could be correct.

@mattbrowne But not if the individual was applying for certain kinds of jobs, or addressing a major convention….could you imagine if the President talked like that? He would have never been elected!

@Val123 – In such a context the use of dialects isn’t appropriate. In Germany we have dozens of dialects. They are used in local bars for example, but not when applying for certain kinds of jobs or addressing a major convention.

@mattbrowne But the crux of the question is, it’s one thing to slip into easy, casual common dialect that contains bad grammar (I do it) but I think it’s sad that some people can’t change that to match certain situations where it isn’t appropriate at all, because they don’t even realize that it’s wrong!

@ItalianPrincess1217 “If I spoke in the way that some blacks speak, I’d get some pretty strange glances.”

Not if you lived in New Orleans. That’s how everybody speaks there, except for the Cajuns, who speak even more oddly.

@Darwin True.

My theory is, if you judge someone by there slang, twang or accent then you are the type to judge a book by it’s cover which is pretty shallow imho.. Nelly made a song about country grammar, and it was ok?? Well millions of people thought it was anyways..

I kid I kid!!

@OutOfTheBlue: replies, someone, I’m, ways, their, its…

If someone speaks in an uneducated manner, I don’t think judging them to be uneducated is like judging a book by its cover at all. It is, however, like picking up a book, reading three or four chapters, and deciding that the whole thing is not worth reading. ...Which people do all the time and is deemed perfectly acceptable by most.

@OutOfTheBlue I agree. It IS shallow. However, it’s almost all you have to go on, that and dress, if you’re meeting someone for the first time, and there will be times in their lives when a good first impression is vital….

What I hate most of all is reading a professionally edited and published book that has an error in it. I am not talking about characters speaking in dialect, but misspellings in descriptive passages, or the use of effect instead of affect or other such blunders. Someone was actually paid to proof read the sucker, but errors still got through.

It reminds me of the time when the last human proofreader retired from our local paper, and was replaced by proofing software. The article about her retirement had 17 egregious errors in it.

Ah, me too! I remember seeing a glaring error on a Mickie D’s tray paper in an advertisement for their food. I don’t remember what it was but I was like….I wonder how much this person got paid. How long, I wonder, till phrase “Could of” comes into circulation in professionally edited script!

I once read a book that switched verb tenses and POV characters mid-paragraph. And I’m fairly certain it wasn’t a style choice. It was horrible.

@Val123 “But not if the individual was applying for certain kinds of jobs, or addressing a major convention….could you imagine if the President talked like that? He would have never been elected!”

I had to laugh to be honest. Ignorance will certainly get you elected. George * cough * W Bush * cough *

@MacBean Oh no!! That would give me a headache!

@Rachienz LOL! Yes, I ‘m glad you brought that up, because GB actually came to my mind as a counter point to my comment! BUT, he was different situation. People were paid to get him in, IMO.

@MacBean I agree with you.

@Val123 – I think well-educated people should easily be able to switch between standard language and dialect. In IT it’s an absolute requirement. In IT in Germany for most jobs it’s also a requirement to be able to switch between German and English. If people can learn a foreign language they should also be able to know both standard English and whatever dialect of it. There are a lot of them in the UK and there are also plenty in the US. Have a look here

http://web.ku.edu/~idea/northamerica/usa/kansas/kansas.htm