Is there a term/help for this?

I think that’s normal, all mothers do that. Mine does it also between her employees, various neighbours and their spouses, public officials and their superiors, as well as the janitor and his stepdaughter.

Most people just learn to ignore her, I’m still trying.

You’re not an elevator. When your unfortunate and miserably unhappy mother pushes your buttons, no one has to go to her floor.

It is probably not in your best interest to try to figure out what is wrong, especially because there is little to nothing that you can do about it. Your best bet would be to try to encourage her to seek counseling. Offspring are not responsible for fixing their parents problems. Here is a site that might have some articles that can give you some tips.

@Jack79 not all mothers do it. Mine never did, & I do my best to follow her example.

@ccrow Uh huh. @all thanks. Some, for nothing.~

Have you sat with your siblings and father and discussed this? She does what she does because you all let her. When she pushes those buttons with whatever she says about you, deep down, if you’re honest with yourself, some part of you believes it. That’s why she can get to you. For example: If she vehemently told you that your were maroon with green spots, you’d laugh, because you know that wasn’t true and you’d wonder about her mental stability that would lead her to say such a thing.

I think you all will have to come together and decide to show a united front against her and if nothing, else, support each other in not reacting to her when starts in on her stuff. And it’s her stuff, not yours. You’re all adults. You don’t have to let her do this to you. She has no right to take out her unhappiness with her own life this way upon you guys. Let her know you’ve got her number.

Wayne Dyer wrote a book called Pulling Your Own Strings about stopping stuff like this in it tracks, from anyone, including family. He points out that it’s family who pulls this crap on each other the most.

Mom does not speak with Dad and refuses to attend any family affairs if he is invited. Getting the picture now?

So sorry for what you’re going through.

At least you KNOW what she’s doing, and now you can take steps to counter act with unity among the other family members until she gets help or snaps out of it.

And their personal relationship has nothing to do with you. Believe me, I learned this the hard way, @Zen_Again. You want to invite your father to family events and she rages about not coming if HE’S there and all that drama queen BS? At this point, that’s on her. Say, “Gee, Mom, we’ll miss you.” You’re letting her dictate all the interactions? You’re all giving her that power? Why wouldn’t she hang onto it if y’all are asking, “How high, Ma?” She needs to grow up, but again, that’s not on you to help her do. Do what you want with who you want. Adults make their own choices.

The only person you can control is you, the only reactions you can control are yours. I suggested a family chat with everyone but her as a way for you all to get on the same page and to give each other support. She’s not going to change unless and until she wants to.

Take a look at the symptoms of Narcissism (google it for about a million sites).

If she is creating an atmosphere wherein all the various relationships are to take a back seat to a relationship with her and where she is the “star” of all interactions she may be one. There is no “cure” for narcissism but knowing what it is can give all of you coping skills that will allow you to fix your relationships with one another.

I think there is a cure for narcissism: better narcissism.

A real narcissist knows that the best thing they can do for themselves is cooperate to create a loving atmosphere for everyone around them. Someone who isn’t narcissistic enough will ignorantly try to create an environment that fails to produce the highest level of personal satisfaction. They just need to get more greedy. Greedy to the point that they don’t just trust their own opinion but instead go out searching for the best ways to create happiness for themselves. At the end of that search they will find that cooperation and caring are the best ways to be greedy because you get the most and best out of life this way.

@ninjacolin- my experience with a narcissist is that they “expect” the world and all it’s people to automatically want what they want as their wants are, obviously, superior.

They lack empathy and don’t seek to enlist support,cooperation or anything else that would honor the other people’s expectations of personal happiness/satisfaction. They expect us to sacrifice these things with no complaints should it satisfy their most trival of whim. We are all just extras in the “them” show.

There is no “better” form of narcissim in my opinion. Being selfish enough to get your needs met in order to meet the needs of those around you isn’t narcissim, it’s the give and take of a normal cooperative relationship.

Normal is something a narcissist not only doesn’t aspire to it is something they view with contempt. Something good enough for mere mortals not their god-like selves.

The joke is: You know why you can’t cure a narcissist? Because there is NOTHING wrong with THEM. Everybody else is the problem.

@Merriment lolol. i do see your point of course. i’m simply suggesting that what you call “normal” is to them, unexplored territory. It’s not that they are rejecting the ideas of caring for others, it’s that they are unaware of the benefits.

“Normal is something a narcissist not only doesn’t aspire to it is something they view with contempt.”

this is what i would caution against thinking. i agree that “caring for others” isn’t something they aspire to but it’s a mistake to think that it is because they have “rejected” that way of living. it’s more accurate to understand that they simply are ignorant of how it would work to their advantage.

it’s a path they take by accident on the road to happiness, it’s a mistake that they get lost in. if they truly want the best out of life, they would take the other path if only they knew how and why.

@ninjacolin – My experience with true narcissists is that they have been repeatedly “shown” that there is a “better” way. This “showing” and modeling of acceptable vs unacceptable is what generally drives their loved ones slowly insane with frustration. Ie: I treat you as I would like to be treated, and you acknowledge and enjoy the benefit of this (and accept it as your due), and yet you will NOT reciprocate.

Most of them are aware in theory of the notion that they could catch more flies with honey than they can with vinegar but they have a closet full of vinegar close at hand so why should they bother seeking out honey when vinegar works good enough and is only unpleasant to the “other guy”.

I don’t believe there are any accidental narcissists beyond a certain age and beyond a certain number of interactions with “normal” people. They have to work very hard to willfully discount the other guy’s viewpoint and to reject any input on what changes they should adopt to have more equitable relationships. Equitable isn’t what the true malignant narcissist wants. Superiority is where it’s at for them.

I wish it was only a matter of them being unenlightened as that would offer hope to the families who are trapped in the N-pool. But even professionals caution families to give up the notion that the narcissist will change and instead counsel them to learn skills to cope with what is.

It sounds to me like you have more experience than I do with narcissists. I have one that I have to deal with in my life and it seems quite evident that while he acts the way you describe, he only does so out of ignorance. Others don’t see it as an act of ignorance either. Like you, most others (doctors/his family/associates) seem to think it’s a choice he is making. However, I’m also convinced that those others aren’t looking for any contrary evidence.

Imagine if you’ve been 100% wrong this whole time. This is easier to do if you’ve ever been wrong about something for an extended period of time. Perhaps you drove down a wrong highway for a short period of time before realizing you were suppose to have turned. Have you ever experienced “misguidance” in this way? An example of this in society would be the cases where a suspect is wrongly convicted for an offense and it takes years before new evidence materializes to exonerate them. Misguidance happens when you have a lot of evidence but not all the evidence. That is, it happens when you are ignorant of the whole truth.

Just like you in this hypothetical (but most likely real) example, a narcissist is simply (and please note this is just my opinion but feel free to test me on this, i’m not scared) misguided by the evidence they’ve observed. Either their way of life has brought them full and complete happiness so far as well as satisfaction in all their relationships or else it has caused problems for them that they would rather not have to deal with ever again. If they have the former then they will not have a reason to change and in truth, we should all follow their way of life if it only leads to good things! If however they have the latter, then they are simply driving down the wrong highway and evidence of this is all that would be required to make them turn around.

Most people see Good behavior as a choice but it isn’t. Good behavior is something a person is persuaded to do. In the very same way that you are persuaded to believe what you believe about narcissists’ motivation, you are also persuaded to believe you should act in “good” (equitable) ways. If a narcissist in your life is acting in an inferior way that produces inferior results for them then they will be interested in learning a superior way to act as long as they can be confident that there will be superior results.

As a victim of a narcissist, you can’t expect much success by teaching them by your example. They won’t learn that way. They have to be taught by their own example: they have to experience the benefits of equitable behavior. Without that evidence, without “the whole truth”.. how could you expect them to change their mind?

LOL, yes I have known more than my fair share I’m sure :)

Alas, I was one of the staunchest hold outs in the “they know not what they do” camp. Unfortunately time and additional experience finally, after much struggle, forced me to abandon this false hope where narcissists are concerned.

I do understand what you are saying. It was nearly inconceivable to me to accept that they were acting in a way that was so counter-productive to getting their needs met long term. I mean who would willingly choose to use and constantly replace a succession of people rather than co-exist with and try and achieve harmony with the people they love and the people who love them?

The flaw with thinking that they are simply unenlightened is that they are having to willfully reject daily doses of reality in order to proceed the way they do. Is it still ignorance if they are simply unwilling to embrace other ways? Or is it deliberate malfunction with an eye towards protecting their own convictions?

I do not believe there has ever been a narcissist who feels they have achieved 100% happiness. Even those who have stumbled into a relationship with a codependent made in heaven will eventually find fault with them and hold them in contempt. Even if it is only for being such a doormat.

It is the nature of the beast to never be “happy” with anything because they always believe they should have “better” even if they already have the “best”. This is why you will never convince them to change their ways, they are incapable of being satisfied/happy and would prefer to blame that on anybody but themselves.

Good behavior is most certainly a choice. No one has to persuade me to act in a good way, it is innate and internal. And it is within this area of “innate” and “internal” motivation that the narcissist is skewed. They do not measure “good” by the impact it has on those around them. Only themselves. What’s good for them is good enough for all of us in their worldview.

If it were possible for a narcissist to “learn” from someone who was not a victim of theirs then professionals wouldn’t have thrown in the towel on “fixing” this disorder. After all, the counselor has not been victimized by them and should be able to show them superior ways of being that have no “victim” stench on them. The downfall with this is the narcissist must be open to hearing this. Inherent in any “you could be doing this better” lesson you will have the instant and complete rejection by a true narcissist that there is any area where they aren’t the “best” already.

That leaves us with a peer group type of therapy. And while the thought of a peer group of narcissists trying to enlighten one another is wildly entertaining I sincerely doubt they would get further than the “who’s in charge” quandary every meeting.

I expect them to do as the rest of us humans do. Become or be made aware of a flaw in how we interact with others and choose to correct that flaw or pay the price in diminished personal relationships. We are not offered a 100% money back guarantee or “proof” that the changes we are embracing are going to make everything superior. We are not offered any assurance that it won’t make things worse. We are acting on “faith” for lack of a better word that we are going to do the right thing and get the right result. Nobody gets guarantees and if a narcissist can’t cope with that uncertainty (and they can’t) they will never have a motivation to change.

And isn’t it elementary why they choose not to change? Whether it’s because of a lack of evidence that their improved behavior would bring about an improved life or sheer, undiluted ignorance, they are still living their lives in this manner and still harming those around them.

Have you come across some technique that has allowed you to positively impact the narcissist in your life to make lasting across the board changes in how they act? Not just for the moment to satisfy you and gain your support. But long term?

The danger that exists in thinking that the narcissist can be fixed and that changing our viewpoint and offering them absolute assurance of the success of a different approach is that it feeds directly into the malignancy that is narcissistic thinking. Ie: Other people need to fix this for me.

Wow @Merriment. That was quality.

“Have you come across some technique that has allowed you to positively impact the narcissist in your life to make lasting across the board changes in how they act? Not just for the moment to satisfy you and gain your support. But long term?”

Well, I can’t say that I have an exact technique down to fulfill what I’m suggesting however, I’ve explained what I believe needs to happen: Sympathy needs to be created in the mind of the alleged narcissist. And I’m basing this off a specific and unpopular understanding of human limitation… uh.. this is where it gets kooky. cover the children’s ears:

Your confidence, Merriment, in the incorrigibility of these people seems to be based on the mythological idea that they can choose to behave however they want. You seem to believe that they are somehow spiritually intent on remaining the way that they are and that they are not uncontrollably coerced by the confines of the path their lives have taken so far.

“It is the nature of the beast to never be “happy” with anything because they always believe they should have “better” even if they already have the “best”. This is why you will never convince them to change their ways, they are incapable of being satisfied/happy and would prefer to blame that on anybody but themselves.”

What you don’t seem to believe, which I do, is that their preferences have been created and continue to be sculpted for them by the material world around them.

“The danger that exists in thinking that the narcissist can be fixed and that changing our viewpoint and offering them absolute assurance of the success of a different approach is that it feeds directly into the malignancy that is narcissistic thinking. Ie: Other people need to fix this for me.”

a) I gotta say: I think “Narcissism” is a label some people put on those who have a prolonged ignorance to the benefits of equitable behavior. However, I would also have to say these people who do the labeling are themselves the narcissists of their own opinions about how the world ought to work, about how people including themselves and those around them, ought to behave.

b) Little do these people realize, they are a part of the material world that can and does impact and affect the path their favorite narcissist is on. Further, it has to be realized that if the path is affected, the destination is affected also: Think back to any trip you ever took where you had a memorable moment of any kind with a furry animal. Your trip, and hence, this experience would not be present without that furry animal’s participation in it. You would actually be someone who could not have the thought you just did. If I asked you to write down the story of your interaction with that animal, what you would have written down, had you not had the experience, would be different than what you would now write down. (woo, that was difficult but i think i got my future/present tenses rightd) This means that your behavior is literally affected by what happens to be a part of your memorable past.

Now, I have no doubt in my mind that any would be narcissist is equally affected by, or rather, a slave to their memories in the same way that I am. Sympathizing with them then, I recognize that what they need is sufficient history: Persistent and indelible memories that evidence to them, moment by moment, how equitable behavior will likely result in a more positive outcome for their own sake.

That’s where my confidence in their corrigibility comes from. Of course, if it’s some sort of lesion on the brain causing the behavior, then, they’z SOL. But that would have to be some sort of short term memory issue… for which we would still have to consider them innocent and victims of their inherited circumstance.

c) Without someone to step in and successfully begin changing the path they are on by getting involved in their coercion, their path and destination will stay the same. I agree with them: Other people really do need to fix this for them. Other people were the majority of what made them what they are in the first place.

@ninjacolin – thanks for the wow :).

My confidence in the likely incorrigibility of these people is based on experience. Experience wherein my own “theories” on how to “fix” them ran headlong into the reality of narcissism.

I do not ascribe their intent to remain as they are as a spiritual dedication. I ascribe it as a self serving choice they are making. I understand that you feel they are making this choice based on incomplete data. I just don’t agree with that. Again, based on experience. Even if it is never verbalized a normal person quickly learns that an unpleasant result of an experience dictates the need for change. ie: touch the stove, get burned, resolve to never lay your hand on the burner again.

Why the narcissist is incapable of learning from these types of experiences is because it serves their purpose to blame the burner, not themselves or their actions.

As for your comment about narcissism of ideas this could apply to your steadfast clinging to the idea that they are simply unenlightened to your version of truth. I am not committed to the idea that they must be enlightened to do it my way. I am committed to my idea of what it takes to live with one.

Yes I have taken a trip wherein a furry animal played a role and while it’s presence made the trip “memorable” it did not change my destination. That is the role that other people play in the narcissist’s life. Interesting scenery to provide the back drop to their “me” show.

Saying that they need “sufficient history” is really a circular notion. If they were open for new data to create new history, they are, in all likelihood NOT a true malignant narcissist. So you are basically curing someone who is a wee bit selfish.

You are right when you say that someone must step in and successfully begin changing the path…and that person is themselves.

Other people didn’t make them narcissists, at most they may have reinforced it. Usually by attempting to be “fair” to the narcissist at their own expense.

If you do ever come up with an actual treatment plan that has measurable impact on a true narcissist I hope you patent it and share it with the world.

Meanwhile, the best the best in the field have to offer on this is coping strategies for the people closest to the narcissist.

@Merriment said: “As for your comment about narcissism of ideas this could apply to your steadfast clinging to the idea that they are simply unenlightened to your version of truth.”
of course it does. :) the point is, we are all equally confident about the practically of our individual moral codes.

@Merriment said: “If you do ever come up with an actual treatment plan that has measurable impact on a true narcissist I hope you patent it and share it with the world. Meanwhile, the best the best in the field have to offer on this is coping strategies for the people closest to the narcissist.”

Sure, I have nothing better to do. “The best of the best” you say.. hmm.. yea, I’d love to compete with them! :) Warning: The following is all just opinion and conjecture but it happens to be what I believe is true. I can’t promise that I’ve explained all my theories to perfection, so make some allowances as I may have to correct the things I say along the way but…

@Merriment said: “Other people didn’t make them narcissists”

I think you’re wrong.. “Other people” kind of do.. everything for you. Ready? Okay: Of course it starts with your parents. First, the gave you life at all. They biologically selected your eye color, your body features.. everything physical about you, none of it was your choice. The last and most important physical feature (relevant to this discussion) that you were given is of course your brain. It’s not a fresh and perfect brain from the factory, it’s a biological duplication of your parents’ brains combined.

Next, there’s the oh so important matter of your memories. Whatever early childhood memories you received as a baby were made possible by your parents. Every toy you played with, the rugs or floor boards you crawled on, your very first words! The rewards you got, the punishments you received, everything you learned was taught to you by your parents and by the world your parents introduced you to.

Your parent-given brain then takes everything it’s learned and absolutely nothing that it hasn’t and it mashes up all those second hand ideas together to produce new patterns and ideas selected out of that mess of old information.

The conclusions you reach will reflect the things you’ve spent your life learning from other people. If it happens to be a fact that all through your life, protecting and taking care of yourself first brought you consistently certain undeniable and memorable benefits, then you will be what we’ve been calling “narcissistic” throughout this conversation. It simply means that in your experience, there is no other way to go about life. If however, by chance, through your history you observed that behaving equitable presented you with the best kinds of rewards, then you will be what we could refer to as “a push over.” And if you’re right down the middle between these two extremes, then you’d be “normal.”

Now, this is all very difficult to estimate. I mean, the rewards you may have received aren’t always “sheer happiness.” Maybe your behavior simply allowed you to survive. Maybe your behavior simply payed off big a few significantly memorable times and, like a gambler, you keep trying to get that big payoff again by means of that behavior. Whatever the case though, as a narcissist, if in the next chapter of life you receive a big payoff from equitable behavior.. and then again in the next chapter of your life.. and the next.. guess what’s going to happen? Just like all the other milestones in your life.. it’s gonna stick with ya. If however, you don’t receive those big pay offs.. and it has to be whatever kind of payoff would appeal to you. If the big payoff is a glass of milk and you happen to be lactose intolerant.. it’s not going to stick. Whatever the payoff is, it has to hit you in the heart muscle.
—

So there you have it.. that’s my prescription for your favorite narcissist: Meaningful memories of equitable behavior paying off big. It’s up to you to get creative to provide them with these memories, it could take a year to administer the dosage before it takes effect. I mean they’ve had all their lives of the anti-dosage, so you’ve got a lot to catch up on.

Some ideas: have an old friend give a call and thank them for some small good thing they did long ago.
Have a discussion about the philosophy of equitable behavior vs narcissistic behavior. Make it fun and positive, not lecturing.
blah blah blah.. if i think of more I’ll offer.
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“Yes I have taken a trip wherein a furry animal played a role and while it’s presence made the trip “memorable” it did not change my destination.”
Your destination in the furry animal explanation wasn’t relevant to the example. Still though, it has changed your destination. Your peripheral thoughts about that destination are affected in small part by that furry animal’s memory. But really, that’s not really the point. The point was that your memories demonstrably affect your behavior. (maybe read it over again to see what i mean) If you change a person’s memories, you effectively change their life.

@ninjacolin – no the point is…that while you seek to change the narcissist to your way of thinking by reprogramming them, I concede that they are who they are and choose instead to focus on how to deal with how their choices affect me. I believe the only person you can really change is yourself and that goes double for anyone dealing with a narcissist.

I don’t believe that people are the sum total of all the “other” people in their lives. Of course we are influenced biologically by our parents genes. But that is only a small part of the whole that becomes an adult. This is readily apparent if you have ever really known an adopted child, their biological parents, and their adoptive parents.

I would disagree with your notion that childhood memories make us who we are and instead offer up that who we are is what makes some memories significant and some entirely forgettable. This is why siblings in a family can and do have dramatically different interpretations of shared childhood events.

Your own words were : “Further, it has to be realized that if the path is affected, the destination is affected also”.

And so, in fact, the destination is relevant to your example by your own measurement.

And no, the fuzzy animal didn’t change the point A or Point B of my trip. Now if said fuzzy animal had appeared in the roadway and caused a massive roll over accident I would say it impacted my time line but still, probably not my destination. Unless it killed me…and then it could be said to have sent me to my final destination, do not pass go, do not collect $200. The same is true of other people’s affect on the destination of a narcissist. We are fuzzy animals to their swiftly journeying “me” bus and any “impact” we have on them will be a side note to their ultimate self chosen destination.

While my “memory” of the fuzzy animal may make me more cautious in the future (presuming that I lived through the meeting) I will still continue to journey in the way I choose to. That is why some people become paralyzed with fear after a traumatic event that leaves another person undaunted. Same experience, different effect.

I have had the opportunity to broach the subject with 2 narcissists in my life. One an individual I was close to and one a virtual stranger who (not surprisingly) turned a “stop by,say hi and have some dinner” invitation into a week long visit that only ended when he was firmly shown the door.

Neither one was the least bit interested in fixing anyone other than the “other” guy. They were Teflon coated and totally impermeable. They did both have numerous suggestions on how the rest of us could gratify them better. I didn’t bother to take notes :)

“I believe the only person you can really change is yourself and that goes double for anyone dealing with a narcissist.”

well, my dear, that belief of yours is the reason why you’ll never learn a better way to get along. you’re hell bent on not looking for a solution. which is fine, you don’t need to. but because you’ve given up. you will never learn another solution.

you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

also, you’re still missing the point of the furry animal story.

Now sweetheart, that’s just funny.

I don’t need a better way to get along, I get along just fine. I get along without feeling I have to change the world to suit me. Something I sense may give you trouble :)

Since my argument is that there is no solution, only coping I’ll have to agree with you that my search for a solution to changing the narcissist is looooong over.

Unless I was hell bent on making the world conform to my standards, why would I continue to search?

Since you share that Wayne Gretzky wisdom “you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” with me I’ll share a quote of his that represents my thoughts on this matter “I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been.”

I think you feel I am missing the point of your furry animal story because I don’t agree with it. Totally different thing that!

no no, you understand the story, but you don’t get why I told it or what i was attempting to prove. you missed my intention and you commented on something else that was irrelevant to my point.

Well it’s either that…or it could be that I do get what you are trying to say and don’t think it proves anything at all.

You think that if you never meet the furry animal you will not be able to “know” yourself as the person who met the furry animal. So the act of meeting the “furry” animal has changed you in a “real” way from the “No furry animal guy” into the “furry animal guy”.

Great.

Now take that logic and see the narcissist as the “No decent interaction guy”.He never had one so he can’t know what it’s like to be a “decent interaction guy”. The first problem with that is over the course of the time it takes one to solidfy their narcissistic behavior they have likely met “many decent interaction examples”. Now even if none of these will have impressed upon him the need to change so that they beome the “norm” in his life it doesn’t mean he hasn’t met a “decent interaction” before.

Then let’s say he really hasn’t met a decent interaction, that his life has been devoid of any examples of it. How long do you suppose it would take to give him enough “proof” to change his norm?

And all of this discounts the belief I, and a great many others, share that it is pointless how many furry animals you point out to him, he is vested in and determined to remain the “no furry animal guy”. So he may deny what he sees, or discount it “THAT’S NOT a furry animal” but he will remain, willfully, blind to the furry animal.

That is my point and that is why I don’t argee that every person who encounters a furry animal will be turned into a “furry animal guy”.

alright, now i see that we’re on the same page with the story and it’s meaning.

now, if a person “believes” from memory and experience that equitable behavior generally produces a greater benefit to themselves than inequitable behavior does, why would they go on behaving inequitably at future opportunities? for what reason?

Yes, I was pretty sure we were in the same book. I read real goot.

For what reason would they continue to behave inequitably?

Because they don’t actually want to “work” for their rewards, they prefer they be given to them as their due. The old “getting something for nothing” makes it more special.
(If you doubt how much people are motivated by this “getting it for free” try to navigate Costco on sample days and see how the crowd acts like refugees getting the first relief food in months.)
The narcissist actually uses the undeserved rewards to bolster their notion of superiority. So if they can do wrong and still have people who, because for their own moral code, do them right they feel even more special.

Because they are vested in their way or the highway

Because it is more fulfilling to them to attempt to force the world to operate according to their terms.

Because they specialize on recruiting a never ending stream of replacement players and so fear no loss.

These people have had experiences that show them the benefits of playing fair…they just prefer to win on their own terms rather than play the game the rest of us mere mortals have to play.

I know you don’t agree but I also know what I have learned about this disorder. It isn’t a simple “enlighten them for they know not what they do”. It is a much more elaborate (and malignant) construct than ignorance.

Well, that’s why I’m asking you. As I said, I think you have more experience.
I think your theory is wrong though for logical reasons.

I don’t believe in truly malignant behavior at all. I think that as a libertarian, you’re wrapped up in a world of metaphors that don’t actually apply to animal behavior in a true sense. That is, I believe you don’t see things for what they really are. It is my understanding that what people really want is for things to go “well.”

I have reason to believe that the only reason people do “bad” things is because they are ignorant of a thing they could do that would bring themselves more desirable rewards. I believe it runs very deep and is quite complex, but it always boils down to plain ignorance. Nothing more.

And, if i happen to be right, then your giving up would itself be considered an act of ignorance that may have lead you to punish more than you have to. After all, if you could push a button have a narcissist in your life willingly change their own behavior, wouldn’t you?
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now to challenge the logic of your views:

if they believe the greatest reward available can only come by doing things the equitable way.. why would they do it the other way?

assuming that the reward truly is greatest when done the equitable way, most of your responses don’t really answer the question. I mean, if the reward really isn’t the greatest accomplished the equitable way, then it would make sense for them to continue doing what they do, wouldn’t you say?

“Because it is more fulfilling to them to attempt to force the world to operate according to their terms.”

by your own admission then, since it is more fulfilling for them, then they ought to keep doing that. just like choosing AstroPhysics over Ballet might be the more fulfilling choice for some, right?

if you see my meaning, it either is more fulfilling or it isn’t. which is it? another way to look at it is: either you have rewards to offer them that are worth their corrected behavior or you don’t.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

I think the problem is that you are attempting to see an emotionally disturbed issue, narcissism, as a logic puzzle. No matter how much logic you apply to an emotional issue you will never solve it with logic alone. If you doubt me, attempt to talk someone out of their grief with a logical statement of “well, look at it this way, we’re all going to die sooner or later” Let me know how it works out for you.

You have a tendency to attempt to label me. You don’t know me. I am not a Libertarian, and in fact, don’t subscribe to any groups way of thinking as a blanket philosophy. I prefer to do my own thinking on a case by case basis.

I appreciate that you have brought this into the realm of the animal kingdom. Because if you were to have the equivalent of a narcissist in a pack animal group, he would be shunned. Picture the juvenile male of a wolf pack who attempts to make the pack his and all about him. He is quickly shunned and banished. The lead male who stays to lead the pack is the one who has proven his skill in balancing selfishness with the survival of his pack.

I think it’s you who doesn’t see things as they really are. The world isn’t a logic puzzle. It isn’t something you can force into compliance with a heaping helping of logic. Especially since your logic is not better than the next guys.

I do agree with you that what people want is for things to go “well”. Where your road diverges from mine is the what the definition of “well” is for a narcissist.

If you think that it being more fulfilling for them is reason enough to justify the withholding of and indifference to the fulfillment of the other people in your life I would say to you that is a red flag hallmark of narcissistic thinking.

I don’t see a person’s personal fulfillment as the be all end all of our experiences here on earth. I see a balance of your fulfillment and that of the people you impact as the ultimate goal.

You say:

” I mean, if the reward really isn’t the greatest accomplished the equitable way, then it would make sense for them to continue doing what they do, wouldn’t you say?”

Yes, I would say.

In fact I have been saying it over and over again for the duration of this thread.

That is my point.

While you think that showing them the rewards that can be had by being decent vs manipulative is the key to the cure. I am saying that for them, they have no desire for a cure because their “greatest reward” comes from getting what they get in the manner they like to elicit it.

It wouldn’t be the same and nowhere near better if they have to get it through their own decency. They prefer it to be a noble sacrifice made to their god by good hearted people. The blood of another person’s goodness and integrity is sweet to them. And no more then they believe they deserve.

Hmm.. firstly, i didn’t mean “Libertarian” as a political position, rather as a philosophical position regarding whether or not we have a choice. You believe people do have a choice as to what they will do or believe. I don’t. I’m the opposite of a libertarian, a determinist. As such, i don’t believe this person makes any decisions about what he wants or what he does.

Now, one of my intentions in discussing this with you is to share with you the reason for my optimism. And my diametrically opposed position of determinist is that reason.

When you say: “they have no desire for a cure because their “greatest reward” comes from getting what they get in the manner they like to elicit it.” I agree with you. Just as you have no desire to ever be wrong in an argument. Same with me. We’re all like that. However, I think what libertarians have wrong in dealing with people, is the idea that people have some kind of freedom to choose what pleases them, such as inequitable behavior.

As you know, my belief is that the greatest rewards come from equitable behavior. So, I would gladly challenge other views of how to live your life. If you want to pit your inequitable way of life against mine a match to see which one will bring you the “greatest” benefit.. I’m positive that my way would win. Meaning, if we went ahead and put them to the test, just like in a race, there would be one winner. And it would be undeniable which one won. You, the narcissist (not you @Merriment) would observe that your way was inferior simply by your own sense of pleasure.

It’s like trying a new food that you thought would taste bad only to find out that it is good. Once you find out that you like it, there’s no going back. You have no free will to decide that you don’t like it. you simply like it at face value. Your future actions in relation to that food are then forever changed. You’re no longer squeimish about it. You no longer say the words: “I hate that food.” You jump at every opportunity to indulge due to the convictions that you have in regard to that food.

Now, the fact that you believe in free will makes you doubt this could be so easy. But you’re wrong and you’ll never know that until you recongize that animals, including humans, don’t really have a choice about what they like. They’re coerced to like whatever they like by evidence. Hence, my deterministic solution to the problem is to give them more evidence that equitable philosophies of living are in fact superior, not just in theory. Once they observe those facts, they will have no choice but to modify their behavior to suit their new found convictions. Yes, “willingly” as per se. :)

—

“It wouldn’t be the same and nowhere near better if they have to get it through their own decency. They prefer it to be a noble sacrifice made to their god by good hearted people.”

have you tried living this way? maybe it is better. but if you’ve been reluctant to try it, you’ll never know! ;)
—
you’re right by the way, i do think life is a logic puzzle. ;) that’s a discussion for another thread though. haha, we’re all such characters.

Firstly, I didn’t think you meant it politically. I just don’t think that attempting to label me is productive to discussion. Since inherent in labeling is the danger of discounting the content due to prejudice against the speaker’s beliefs. Something I like to avoid.

Your statement that “you have no desire to ever be wrong in an argument” is again painting with your own biased paint brush. I can think of many arguments wherein I would love to be wrong. Take the incurable status of narcissists for instance. I have stated over and over again that I would love for it to be curable and that , sadly, my experience (and many other’s) with them has proven otherwise.

The problem with your theory and what I am trying to explain to you is that you would not win in a contest where you attempted to show the narcissist that greater pleasure could be had from equitable behavior. It is just as important to them how they get what they want as it is to actually get what they want. To have to stoop to being decent would taint their pleasure enough to render it “not the best they ever had”.

<i>It’s like trying a new food that you thought would taste bad only to find out that it is good. Once you find out that you like it, there’s no going back. <i>

Yes, but once you tried said food, no matter how much you loved it, if you felt it’s purchase price was out of line you would not shop for it. Especially if you could get it for free in another way. That is, again, what I am saying in regards to the narcissist. They may not deny that equity is good but they will deny indulging in it to preserve their own personal mindset. Not unlike the ecologically minded person who will not eat tuna that isn’t Dolphin safe.
No they won’t suddenly abhor the taste of tuna, but other considerations will take precedence.

<i> But you’re wrong and you’ll never know that until you recongize that animals, including humans, don’t really have a choice about what they like.<i>

Funny you have to label me wrong and yourself right and talk down to poor little ole me!

I don’t see it that way.

I see you as someone who wants things to work in a logical fashion. For every puzzle to have a solution and not just a coping mechanism. For people to be the sum total of their experiences only with no allowance for the personal slant that who they are on a molecular level will have on the perception of said experiences.

I don’t, however, think your beliefs make you “wrong”. I think it makes you a guy with a theory that hasn’t been put to the reality test. If you are indeed wrong when you attempt to put your theory to the reality test, the results or lack thereof will tell you. That isn’t my job.

I think you are personalizing this a bit much and I’ll understand if you wish to discontinue discussing it.

What do you mean “have you tried living this way?” Have I tried life as a vampire who feeds off the blood of innocent’s? No, can’t say I have.

Have I tried being the innocent, goodhearted person who made the noble sacrifice to the narcissist? You bet your ass I have :) And I have the fang marks to prove it!

yes we are all such characters and some of us more than others :)

You make me think your feelings are hurt but that wasn’t my intention. I just talk funny.

To me, it seems like you’re the one who’s personalizing it. When I say “you’re wrong” I mean 2 things. One, I’m challenging you: It’s just internet machismo! it’s not meant to be taken as anything more than an intellectual challenge. I like being proved wrong too.. it just happens soooo rarely.. haha. Really, you seem somewhat overly defensive to me. Let your guard down, you’ll see I’m just having fun too. (Of course, if I’m wrong and you’re perfectly chill already that’s cool. just know that I’m perfectly chill too.) And two: I’m making my position clear that, yes, I really do think your opinion is “wrong” indicating that there’s a reason for it that I don’t feel you’ve gotten. I’ll get into the “wrong” and “right” stuff in a sec..

Labeling things is way more useful than people think. As long as your labeling is accurate, that is. Knowing what you’re dealing with is important. Especially in this case. The free will paradigm is quite different from the determinism paradigm. Significantly different problem solving principals and techniques that i’ve noticed.

Now, I do believe some beliefs deserve the title “wrong” and some deserve the title “right”.. essentially, those ideas that are logically consistent are the ones that are “right” and those that are logically inconsistent are the ones that are “wrong.” Which ties right into the discussion.. I feel narcissists have a demonstrably “wrong” belief about how to achieve “wellness.” And I also believe you have a “wrong” belief about how to deal with these people.

Don’t focus on my stance, though, I only state that for clarity sake. Focus on the accuracy of my convictions. So… can we continue? I’d like to.
—

@Merriment said: “Have I tried being the innocent, goodhearted person who made the noble sacrifice to the narcissist”

I think you know that I certainly am not suggesting this behavior. Of course if you become their lap dog, you’ll be treated like one. :)

As now my reality-untested theory.. I think one ought to be willing to give it a try. Especially since you and I both agree that all the things (as above) that you tried didn’t work. I’m suggesting something that, as you’ve said, hasn’t been tested before. and I’m basing it on a theory about humans that is quite unpopular but which is demonstrably accurate. :) Make sense?

“It is just as important to them how they get what they want as it is to actually get what they want. To have to stoop to being decent would taint their pleasure enough to render it “not the best they ever had”.”

I can see how this seems intuitive, but I assure you the principal works at a deeper level than this. What the challenge would do is prove to them that stopping to that level is the greatest kind of selfish they’ve ever experienced. I’m not asking them to reverse their idea of self-importance, I’m asking them to increase it. I would be challenging them to take being selfish more seriously than ever.

you made a great example with the “especially if you can get it free another way” comment. the idea is that.. well, you know the adage: you get what you pay for? it’s the difference between a cubic zirconia and a diamond. it’s the difference between bootlegged clothes and quality clothes. I believe there is a real, observable difference between the two ways of life that anyone in their right mind would be greedy enough to pursue, if only they knew the difference existed.

@Merriment, I have been watching this thread for several days now and I must say not only have you not become defensive, you have stepped over way more condescending, somewhat insulting comments than I would have. ninjacolins attempt to inflame and provoke you have been ignored with more tact than I know I would have been able to muster. Insert insult here, add “Of course I could be wrong” and hopefully it will go unnoticed when the viewer reads the post. I just wanted you to know what a neutral third party sees. We see the insults and the attempts to inflame. You have conducted yourself with grace. Well done young lady.

@ ninjacolin If you think your untested theory will work, I invite you to seek out a narcissist and conduct your experiment. I know narcissists and I will at this juncture of your conversation lend my support to Merriments very accurate, well stated opinion of curing a narcissist with kindness, it can’t be done. But please, go find one and give it a shot. Good luck.

sigh.. well well, it seems that if you mess with a ninja you’re gonna get cut. ;)
no harm or flame or insult was ever intended at all. i suppose it must mean that I just have sharp comments. i’d like to see an insult if you can extract one for me, @Silhouette, so i can apologize for it

“narcissists and I will at this juncture of your conversation lend my support to Merriments very accurate, well stated opinion of curing a narcissist with kindness, it can’t be done.”

i never said they could be cured simply by being kind to them. if that’s what you think my opinion is, then you haven’t understood my meanings at all.

ninjacolin Sigh….. I think your opinion of how “sharp” your intellect is differs from mine. See, I don’t think you understand what you are saying, let alone what Merriment has said. You started talking in circles quite sometime ago and appear to be completely unaware of it. Maybe you should rethink your tone with Merriment in hopes that she will continue conversing with you.

Perhaps you could leave out things like this Examples of personal insults: well, my dear, that belief of yours is the reason why you’ll never learn a better way to get along. you’re hell bent on not looking for a solution. which is fine, you don’t need to. but because you’ve given up. you will never learn another solution.

you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

also, you’re still missing the point of the furry animal story.

With any luck at all Merriment will come back and continue this debate for I’m not as willing as she is in giving you the benefit of the doubt. I’m certain continuing this discussion with you will prove to be as fruitless as trying to teach a narcissist with the atta boy school of thought.

I’m pretty sure I know why this thread has continued for as long as it has without going anywhere.
“mess with a ninja you’re gonna get cut”= having a distorted sense of self-importance
“the best of the best” you say.. hmm.. yea, I’d love to compete with them!” =Fantasies of unparalleled intelligence
“Like you, most others (doctors/his family/associates) seem to think it’s a choice he is making. However, I’m also convinced that those others aren’t looking for any contrary evidence.” = a distorted sense of self-importance
Only HE, ninja Colin has the answers all the rest of us professional included are wrong.

um.. i don’t know how to reply to that comment.
i want to say: “wow, you really don’t get me at all.” but at the same time i don’t want you to leave thinking that I’m not interested in solutions. i certainly can’t apologize for those comments you quoted since they certainly weren’t insults i was throwing. they were ideas meant for her consideration. i don’t even think merriment would think of those as insults.

“you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.” is an old truism (from wayne gretsky?) that means quite simply: If you give up before you find a solution, you won’t find a solution.

“that belief is the reason why X” is a deterministic reality. beliefs themselves have very real consequences. that was an important point i was trying to make. for example, if you believe you can’t succeed at something, you’re more likely to be right than if believe the opposite. which ties back to the “shots you don’t take comment”

she was still missing the point of the furry animal story. as an experienced message boarder (snicker) i know how easy it is for people to miss the point of a comment but proceed without ever realizing that they didn’t get it. by my saying that, it allowed merriment to clarify for me that she did understand my position and then i was able to continue the conversation. these are tricks i’ve learned after YEARS of this stuff. I wasn’t e-born yesterday. I’m an old man when it comes to internet conversations. again: snicker

Really, these aren’t insults at all. these are the pains of internet discussion forums. Another pain is having to deal with people who don’t understand your conversational style. but I’m happy to clarify for ya.

and my “sharp intellect” comment was a joke. i’m always joking around, very hard to tell on message boards.. that’s why it’s best to always assume people are joking when you’er on here otherwise you can get offended pretty easy. trust me, i’m the most docile soul you ever will meet. (as long as you stay away from my sword)

um..sure why not, It’s all a big misunderstanding. I just don’t get you or message boarding, yeah that’s it.

phew! i’m glad we agree! i knew we’d come to a resolution ;P

And I knew exactly what your next comment was going to be. You seen one narcissist, you seen um all. Here’s lookin at ya kid. : )

Oh, just because i happen to be best in the whole world doesn’t mean that I’m a narcissist. You’re committing the fallacy ad hominem

@Merriment this is the fallacy you were cautious of when you said:

I just don’t think that attempting to label me is productive to discussion. Since inherent in labeling is the danger of discounting the content due to prejudice against the speaker’s beliefs. Something I like to avoid.

You were worried that I was simply saying: “oh you’re a free-willer! your opinion is irrelevant.” but i wanted to be clear that my objection wasn’t so simple. libertarian is the term for believing in choice. and a belief in the ability for people to choose is a belief of consequence as i was explaining to @Silhouette. it very likely makes one behave differently towards an individual than someone who does not believe people can make choices. hence, it was an ad hominem argument, but a non-fallacious ad-hominem.

Like I said earlier, continuing this discussion with you is pointless, thank you providing proof of that for me. G night.

sigh.. night, @Silhouette, you’re a sweety.

Sweaty, too.

@ninjacolin- I continued this discussion with you because I assumed ,despite your tendency to get personally attacking, snide, and to totally step over my responses that challenged your “logic” you were actually interested in discussing this issue.

However what has become transparent is that while I addressed each new issue you raised you ignored by challenges to your “logic” in favor of restating your favorite theory in slightly different way. That isn’t a discussion. That is a lecture. I don’t like lectures.

Then I see how you have handled yourself with Silhouette and I am appalled at the childish “I know you are but what am I” way you went about it.

I fear I have given you far too much credit and that I have been merely participating in what is really your favorite topic..endless arguing with the goal of exhausting your opponent and “winning” by forfeit.

It never was about “winning” for me. So * *waves white flag** I surrender.

Please have the last word and rest assured that I will not respond no matter how “sharp” your words :)

@Silhouette – I’m sorry you got the shitty end of his sword. I was fairly certain that a direct challenge to Ninja ,despite his affection for challenging others, would result in this response.

So I carefully avoided giving him this direct challenge to give him the opportunity to “prove” his theory. That by showing him that there is value in acting in a superior way he could be confident of a superior result. So much for that theory :)

@Merriment Not a problem. I was sure of his reactions before I chose to post. Like you, I was certain he’d go where he went. And, like you, I think he just disproved his own theory. You’re a very classy lass.

well, seeing as i have the stage. i may as well say it: i’ve launched 0 insults. (so far but there’s still time) but i’ve just received a bunch. like you, i do feel that I kicked both of your asses pretty well. and you’re both being very poor sports about it.

get a sense of humor and stop taking yourselves so seriously.
holy shit.

anyway, ladies I’m sorry you guys both got so upset by this but it’s not my fault that i find it hilarious either. Still, I don’t really need you as enemies. i have a sense of humor that you’re gonna have to catch up to. I try to come hard but I don’t try to be disrespectful. If you get a hint of disrespect from my words somehow, trust me: you’ve misunderstood. ask for clarification. otherwise, just don’t talk to me. plain and simple.

step over my responses that challenged your “logic”

sorry, lady. I don’t think I stepped over any of your challenges. that’s not my style.
if i didn’t agree with you on a point, it’s because your conclusion was apparently (to me) fallacious and I was unable to agree. not because I didn’t want to agree, but because it lacked something. either I missed something or you did. I don’t run from arguments or dodge them. you can hold me to that.

@ninjacolin
@Merriment
In our attempts to understand, exonerate, villify, justify or demonize the narcissist, one can fall prey to the same affliction. There isn’t an agreed upon source of narcissism and its subsequent affliction whether it be an overly doting parent or a neglectful one. Perhaps the nature of trying to rationalize or cope with this behavior itself can be another crucible wherein it is formed.

I have an extremely narcissistic, very attractive charming mother and she can be very nice as she trods over the trivial concerns of your own or other family members needs. This statement by merriment has been my interaction with her in a nutshell:
Inherent in any “you could be doing this better” lesson you will have the instant and complete rejection by a true narcissist that there is any area where they aren’t the “best” already.

I long ago gave up trying to give her advice but occasionally I used to think I was mad when she would ask me advice. I would carefully word something to help her understand how she could change her behavior and would be immediately put upon with statements like, “Oh so you think it’s all my fault?” And I would be like, “What??” Didn’t she just ask me for help? I of course thought that she wanted to change her behavior but that of course was the furthest thing from her mind. She just wanted to “appear willing to compromise”.

Everything is a manufactured state with the narcissist and philosophically I believe that this is the ultimate nature of the ego itself. There is a close imitation of all human behaviors. There is an imitation of compassion, concern, compromise, willingness and even love. For years after her third husband died my mother would still remark on how much “he loved her”! Even at his funeral. Never the reverse that “she loved him.”

There are also studies of the narcissist and the satellite narcissists around them in the immediate family or people that they interact with. In fact it’s almost impossible to avoid if one spends any time in dealing with the narcissist not to adapt a few of your own narcissistic tendencies. Because you’re imagining that you can do what no one else can for this person. I found in delving into the topic much of the attributes classified as narcissistic I identified with, and now I believe I’m probably a narcissist myself. But I genuinely want to see the world more honestly and truly desire to have authentic experiences so does this fly in the face of the theory that the true narcissist has no desire to change? I don’t know but according to this one test I am a narcissist. Thankfully most of my behaviors have to do with self sufficiency and not the victimizing variety but nonetheless there are some grandiose ideas of self. I challenge anyone to take the test honestly. You may be surprised.
For me it’s best to remember that we are all just hurt people and some of us are surrounded by layers of thorns and barb wire. And no one is beyond help but they must be truly willing. It can’t be forced.
I love my Mom regardless.

Interesting test. I took it. And I took it honestly and I scored a whopping 4.
12 -15 is the average with over 20 being a narcissist.

I do agree with you 100% that there are satellite narcissists orbiting the main one in a family. I know them by name :)

There is a close imitation of all human behaviors

You hit the nail on it’s creepy head with this sentence.

Have you also noticed that they constantly are scanning you for “hints” on what is “right” in any particular situation?

I did and I eventually developed a poker face that might be of value in Vegas one day.

@Merriment
A four huh? Wow you might be the other end.or too self effacing

It’s sad but I don’t trust my mother to get close when she feels warm and fuzzy. I frequently do because I want to trust but invariably there’s a stiletto hidden under the blanket. Come closer go away Come closer! GO AWAY It’s a terrible way to live for most healthy people. All I know is that my capacity for healthy relationships has been seriously hampered. All I ever wanted was to hurt her the way I was hurt but was always consumed with guilt when I did. It’s fucked up but the only way to grapple with a narcissist is to beat them at their own game and it becomes shameful and ugly. “Ha ha Look!” “I’ll cut off my own arm and hit you over the head with it!” Take that…I actually think both of my brothers and sister would also score high.
I think if you grow up with a narcissist you can adapt by being extremely socially interdependent or completely self reliant. For better or worse I’m the latter. The hardest part with me is the failed relationships. I’m almost numb at this point in my life but I’ve apparently deeply affected many women and for that I have regret.
I’d like to be just happy.

@SeventhSense that was a great post. Very honest! Apparently, I’ve almost got celebrity status according to that test. I don’t mind that at all. :) I have to say that test seems a little simple. And when confronted with questions like: “Are you an awesome person or are you just the average joe?” I have a theory that it is damaging to yourself to check the “average joe” option. Even if you are an average joe you ought not participate in such an attack against your own character. You ought not use such language against yourself because.. whatever you do, you’re going to remember it in some small way. Especially if you take those kinds of tests often. It’s damaging to your sense of self to remember voting against yourself.

I really believe your character is made up of your experiences, your memories, in this way. And I don’t think your good looking mom is excused from this. That is, I don’t believe your mom was born a narcissist. I believe she was most likely taught to be narcissistic by her experiences growing up just as you feel you have been taught by your experiences to be a narcissist.

I’m glad you love your mom. She’s a victim of her experiences just as you are, just as merriment is, just as I am. None of us can simply choose to forget the ways we’ve been taught. But it’s important to note that we can’t simply choose to forget what we experience. Everything that happens to us, as long as we aren’t demented, we’re going to remember and it’s going to affect us. Knowing that, I think, ought to give you an advantage in helping your mom and yourself.

Make no mistake, I am suggesting the equivalent of an exorcism, here. So, it requires a certain amount of confidence to get done. But again, I don’t really know the exact circumstances or anything but it sounds like doing something drastic, loving, and memorable would really help your situation along.

@SeventhSense Well I haven’t ever been accused of being too self-effacing:) I am modest and don’t seek the limelight but I have no problem with recognizing my own talents or strengths or with being the center of attention should I need to be.

I also hold the “average Joe” in high enough esteem to not be insulted by considering myself one. When it comes down to it, we are none of us really any better than the other. Just different.

Of course, you don’t trust your Mother when she is in warm fuzzy mode. Like you said they emulate normal emotions without really feeling them. So if she appears warm and fuzzy it is likely to be stage setting for a human sacrifice…yours!

The desire to hurt them as they hurt you, I too learned was futile. If we were able to hurt with impunity like they do, well then we would be them.

I learned the truth that you cannot hurt a narcissist in any way that won’t leave you twice as injured if you are normal.

Even with cutting them completely off you will quickly be replaced. That is the nature of their beast.

I gave up on getting even and concentrated on getting on with my own life, free of their malignancy. Yes, I still love the narcissist but I do it from a safe distance. I no longer look to them to be the person I wish they were. I no longer feel enraged by their failure to be that person.

I agree with you that as children we adapt to survive in those ways. But as an adult, especially one removed from the sphere of influence of the narcissist, we get to modify our behaviors and seek more balance. This is what I have done.

The numbness that I felt in the past while in the relationship with the narcissist is a thing of the past. I am fully and vibrantly alive for the first time in my life.

I do not see myself as a “victim”. I see myself as a person who was dealt a particular hand who had the choice of continuing to play or not. When I was strong enough I discarded those cards that were harmful and picked up a few new ones.

I will never forget what I was taught by those cards but ,neither will I allow them to become my personal tarot cards that define the rest of my life.

Narcissists are like any other parasite. They will feed off their host even to the the degree that they kill that host (think of ticks on a dog). They don’t understand the need for moderation even when it’s in their best interests. It is the responsibility of the host to rid themselves of the parasite while there is still blood left in their veins.

@ninjacolin
But again, I don’t really know the exact circumstances or anything but it sounds like doing something drastic, loving, and memorable would really help your situation along.
But isn’t this the point that all of this is driving at? There is NOTHING that a person can do. It has to come from a serious desire to change and is usually only from a serious tragedy that something occurs. My mother has been married three times. All three husbands were alcoholics. The first two she couldn’t change and it was “her burden”. The last was a sober recovered alcoholic and simply “worshiped her”. All of my brothers and sister are addicts or alcoholics. Two of us sober. I have been sober for many years along with my older brother. My sister had three children by two different fathers, has been in and out of about 15 different rehabs but still struggles. Since her first rehab and before the conception and birth of her first daughter I told my mother you MUST DETACH from her with love. She continued to enable her and bail her out of predicament after predicament because she is an enabler and has a god complex. She will save her. My sister got deeper and deeper into alcoholism and addiction.

My mother eventually took custody of her two youngest children but rather than insulate the children from harm and contact with their extremely disfunctional mother she continued to allow them to talk. My sister would periodically tell the kids how she was going to come down and take the children back. The kids were constantly confused. The oldest boy started acting out more and more getting into serious trouble. My mother would call me and ask for advice and I would give her advice that her “therapist” said was spot on. She would apply none of it and would simply sigh with resignation when asked why as if I was attacking her.

The insight I had into the boy was that he was much like me and she was creating the same power struggle with him that we had. It was like reliving a tragedy to watch this but gave me new insight into why I had acted out and followed the path I did. Eventually he learned to be numb as well. Recently he started using drugs/acting out and she was overwhelmed and could not handle it and sent him to a treatment facility. It was all she could do. I saw her for the holiday and against almost all rational and effective treatment suggestions she decided to take my sister’s oldest child to live with her. This beautiful young girl is on heroin and within one day of moving in with her grandmother because she didn’t want to go through the process of “seeing her kick”, she decides that it’s best to put her on methadone. She had gone through withdrawal at my brother’s house once because he was willing to. No one in my family has ever done heroin until this point so it’s plain that the disease has progressed. Meanwhile she still thinks that everything is fine and she’s learned how to have borders! She is not nor was ever cut out for motherhood and although countless examples have shown her methods to actually create problems she refuses to abandon them but simply tries different people. Because the problem can never be with her or her methods. Oh no, that is unfathomable. It’s fucking ghoulish. “Well if my first four children didn’t work and my first three husbands didn’t work well maybe I need to try it on my grandchildren.”
What message can be carried to this individual? She is 70 years old and she thinks that she can raise three teenagers on her own and two are on drugs.
I am able to detach from her but it’s hard watching another generation be destroyed and being completely powerless.
What will work? A stake in the fucking heart.

@SeventhSense – I have experienced what you describe. They prefer to surround themselves with broken people..all the better to feed off of. They create those broken people if they get the chance. They love the tragedy in which they get to play a starring role so there is NO tragedy that will overwhelm their need for the limelight. They just see it as a better script to showcase their talents.

The children are, in fact, going to be assigned the same roles as her children were. Unless and until the people with authority over those children see that they have to break the cycle to save their children even if they were unable to save themselves.

I really, really, really understand exactly what you are going through and feel your pain.

And yes, the solution is a virtual stake through their heart. As you have so eloquently laid out the examples in your post, nothing is ever “big enough or tragic enough” to shake them out of this behavior.

So then, this becomes a matter of survival, a choice of your and the grandchildren’s survival vs the survival of her malignancy.

@SeventhSense Unmovable, unyielding boundaries is all it takes. Be the wall. They will try to pry the mortar apart, they will try to climb the wall, they will try to tunnel under it, they will try to break it down with constant pressure, but if you are unmovable they will fade away like the fog they are. They are of no substance and if you stand strong in the face of their theatrics they evaporate. Been there done that. You can’t teach them to behave better but you can teach them you aren’t the one. You will NOT be an extra in their production. I can tell from your post you know how insidious they can be so I know you know how even the slightest glimpse of weakening leaves you exposed to full scale attack. You can back one down, you can love them from a safe distance and you can change the rest of your life. You can for the first time, make it YOUR life. Draw a line in the sand and refuse to back down.

@Merriment
have experienced what you describe. They prefer to surround themselves with broken people..all the better to feed off of. They create those broken people if they get the chance.
That’s just it. She came up to see us over the holiday and rather than spend time in a quite functional household with my older brother and I and his children, she was chasing my sister and younger brother. I didn’t even mention how dysfunctional he is. He’s like the poster child for passive aggressive behavior. I’m single so I am the last to know anything but on TWO DAYS in a row over the holidays I went to a predetermined meeting location only to find that there was no one there and the plans had changed. And then when I contact anyone, the message is “Oh ya we decided that we weren’t going or 10 minutes ago it changed, didn’t you know?”. And it wasn’t that I was excluded because no one got together at all on this particular occasion. I feel like I show up for other people who don’t even show up in their own lives. It’s maddening but as one of the only proponents of accountability and sanity you actually are ignored even more. It’s like you’re invisible and I guess for all practical purposes you are to them. This is the other aspect of the dynamic. Other family members become indifferent, apathetic and unaccountable. It’s a type of futility and extended immaturity that just goes on.

At one point you have to draw a line in the sand to attend to your own life and I know how this one is going to go down and I’ve done it in the past. Immediately it will be the pleading. “No you have to be involved.” “We need you.” “You’re the doormat backbone of the family.” Yes they need me to share insights that they can ignore
There is no simple answer except to focus on your life and do what’s best and resist drama and refuse to abandon your own truth for the sake of someone’s ego.

@Silhouette
The problem with those walls is that they start to extend far beyond their intended purpose and only invite more drama. Maybe just an invisible doggy fence that gives em a little jolt when they try to overstep it. :)

And I do want to see them from time to time. I do love them and their children. I just refuse to compromise my core values anymore.

@SeventhSense ” I just refuse to compromise my core values anymore.” That is EXACTLY what I mean. Firm bottom line.

I hope this is covered by my insurance…

@SeventhSense – It is a classic damned if you do and damned if you don’t in this scenario. And that being the case taking care of you and being damned for “don’t” makes more sense.

They do need you. All of us have our assigned roles and if one fails to show up and there is no understudy waiting to take over their lines the script must be rewritten. That is why opting out of the play has a tiny bit more potential to change things for the better for the other “bit” part players. Not to cure the narcissist but to show the others a small glimpse of freedom and a hint as to the escape route.

There are simple answers but sadly the costs of those simple answers are not simple at all and are heartbreaking and horrible to contemplate.

I finally cut contact with the Narcissist in my life. It was traumatic and shook me to the core. But what I couldn’t imagine at that time was my potential for happiness that was ready willing and able to regrow once I stopped letting that person poison my garden.

“I hope this is covered by my insurance…”

LOL !

holy hell, @SeventhSense. Your family sounds ignorant. In the true sense of the word, not the slang sense. They seem like they’ve completely missed all the lessons they were suppose to have learned about how to lead a satisfying life for themselves.

@SeventhSense said: “But isn’t this the point that all of this is driving at? There is NOTHING that a person can do. It has to come from a serious desire to change and is usually only from a serious tragedy that something occurs.”

that’s what those who feel defeated are telling me. but i’m not interested in encouraging you to give up, i’m not interested in bolstering a defeatist attitude, i’m not here to tell you to wait for something tragic.

i am interested, however, in helping anyone who wants to try something else.
there’s always time to give up later.

@ninjacolin
No I can’t say they lack intelligence but then again I know many bright academicians who are woefully ignorant. And actually from a biological standpoint they are all quite successful. Handsome and pretty with 2.3 beautiful babies. :) But I think the world in general comes from a place of ignorance because people ignore what they don’t want to hear or that they have no desire to assimilate. If the pain of change is greater than, or perceived to be greater than, the pain of staying the same then nothing will change. And those of us who actually do change are the exception and found a compelling reason to do so. It’s human nature. If our ancestors weren’t getting eaten we wouldn’t have taken to the trees or left the plain. Pain or fear of pain is the only thing that motivates us.
But consider how this can paralyze a young being into fear of making a mistake:

“Why are you doing this to me? You are truly acting wicked. Do you ever consider what i have to go through? Do you know how hard I work? Why are you acting like this?”
Because I’m 6 Mom…

Actually I don’t think you really know the nature of the beast.

Ignorant: lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned

specifically in the ways of creating happiness for themselves. i’m saying, they act the way they act because they don’t really know what else to do.

@SeventhSense said: “If the pain of change is greater than, or perceived to be greater than, the pain of staying the same then nothing will change.”

I agree with this completely. They are ignorant also of the fact that the pain is greater to stay the same than it would be to change.

@SeventhSense ” It’s maddening but as one of the only proponents of accountability and sanity you actually are ignored even more. It’s like you’re invisible and I guess for all practical purposes you are to them.” The subtle forms of intimidation which include guilt-making and shunning are all part of the pattern. The narcissist is going to try to draw you back in, by shutting you out.
Contrary to what someone with no understanding of narcississtic behavior sees, waving the white flag at a narcissist is not defeat, it’s victory. Giving UP is winning, giving IN is losing.

you can talk to me directly, @Silhouette. no need to be childish.

protecting yourself is important. withdrawing from them might even be the emotional push needed that can get things going in the right direction. but utter abandonment isn’t a good idea. strategic abandonment, maybe. but if that doesn’t work and they end up worse.. what good was it?

besides, if you’re not ready to go that route, you may as well try something that may work rather than something that others before you have tried and failed at. every situation is different though.

@ninjacolin I’m directing my comments to @SeventhSense because that is who I am interested in speaking with. If and when I’m interested in speaking to someone prone to personal insults and name calling you’ll be my first choice. K

I’m sorry, i meant “address” me.
@Silhouette, you realize you misunderstood my intentions earlier, right? i wasn’t actually insulting merriment. your accusation was false as i clearly pointed out. again, my intention was not at all to insult. you read me wrong and you really annoyed me when you deceived merriment with your slander. anyway, just thought i would reiterate.

@ninjacolin -

I’m going to make an exception, just this once, to speak to you again on this thread after having said I wouldn’t. You’re just that special!

You are wrong to claim that Silhouette “deceived” me with her “slander” of you.

In fact, I did feel you had become personally insulting throughout our “conversation”. Here is one example you said to me:

_well, my dear, that belief of yours is the reason why you’ll never learn a better way to get along. you’re hell bent on not looking for a solution. which is fine, you don’t need to. but because you’ve given up. you will never learn another solution.

you miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

also, you’re still missing the point of the furry animal story._

In case the insult of this still escapes you let me break it down for you where you erred.
“Well, my dear” is patronizing.

“that belief you yours is the reason why you’ll never learn a better way to get along”..implies that I am too ignorant to have an open mind to other methods.

Something I showed an avid interest in hence my participation with you trying to get at the foundation of your theory to “fix” the narcissist.

“because you have given up” implies that I have failed in my attempts to get a cure rate on a narcissist not because they are incurable but because I just wasn’t as good as you at managing them.

“also you are still missing the point of the furry animal story”..shows you steadfastly clinging to the notion that it is my ignorance that is preventing me from seeing the brilliance of your story.

This despite my having told you repeatedly that I did “get it” but didn’t see it’s merit. To put an end to this charge I had to actually break it down point by point to illustrate that I did, in fact, get it. And that I still did not believe it had anything of value to offer in this instance.

As I stated to you in my final comments I tolerated your condescension and your complete and silent dismissal and stepping over of my pointing out the holes in your logic for the purpose of continuing the conversation and in hopes that “as a whole” you could reread the thread and see that the best of intentions on the part of one party doesn’t necessarily mean the other will respond in kind.

You failed to grasp this. Instead you apparently cannot see how one-sided your conversion (misspelling deliberate) style is.

Then when it became clear that the conversion was well and truly over you went all 3rd grade with_ ” i do feel that I kicked both of your asses pretty well. and you’re both being very poor sports about it.
get a sense of humor and stop taking yourselves so seriously.
holy shit.” _

How, in gods name you can reread this thread where you steadfastly banged your drum to the same tune without considering at least half of the other data brought to the table and declare yourself “the winner” would be a puzzlement to me were I not so familiar with the disorder this indicates.

Do I consider you an enemy? No. Do I enjoy interacting with you? No. Sorry I have only so much tolerance and I have expended all I care to on your behalf. You handle this information however you would like.

@Silhouette
Yes surrender is the answer no doubt. It’s difficult but ultimately in my own self interest.

It’s like taking a return in my online business. Sometimes I make a great sale and then I get an extremely irate customer completely disproportionate to reality. Threatening to sue me and all manner of insanity before he even asked me to return which I’m always more than happy to do. And I will give up more than I have to just because I know the cost is far greater to my reputation on eBay than it is to give him his extra expenses like return shipping. And in two days after I swallow the bitter pill and forget about the whole instance he is just a blip in the rear view mirror. I always have to remember what my goal is and it’s always peace of mind. The hardest thing I have to accept is that at this point, my position is so clear they won’t even attempt to cross the line. I may not hear from them at all. And this makes me very sad.

Hi, @Merriment. I appreciate your response very much. There are a few things I beg you to consider. Firstly, I meant no offense (until sil got me riled up) Your being offended does not constitute my insult. You can claim that you are offended by my opinions, but if you go so far as to accuse me of attempting to condescend or insult you.. You must know this about me: I don’t insult people, even in real life. It’s just not something I’m in the habit of doing. If my style of writing offends you, you have only to let me know and I’ll change it to suit you. But really, my intention was not to insult you as I hope to make plain:

“Well, my dear” is patronizing

I’m sorry you took it that way. To me, it was a jovial and teasing way of introducing my contrasting opinion. It’s fun and games with me, not insults and attacks. I refuse to be unpersonable especially since I do enjoy your participation on fluther and obviously value you enough to defend myself to you. More on this later..

“In case the insult of this still escapes you let me break it down for you where you erred.”

This is crucial. Firstly, would you consider this sentence of yours an insult?
Secondly, the insult of “this” truly did escape me. If I knew it were a horrible thing to you, i wouldn’t have said any of it! And by the way, this is exactly the point I’ve been trying to make about the so-called narcissists: If they really knew “better,” they would act better. Hence, to me their offense seems quite plainly to be an act of chronic ignorance just as I was ignorant of what might offend you.

The fact that two people can disagree at all shows that both are ignorant of the merits of the other person’s position. Only one opinion can be right. Either narcissism is the best way to live for that individual or it’s not. And I think the only way to know is for that individual to try both for a dedicated period of time: Put them to the test! That’s my alleged “fix.” That by personally observing the quality of life produced by equitable behavior contrasted against the opposite, the narcissist would be forced to reform for the sake of simply wanting what is now believably best for themselves.

Anyway, I do hope you get my “fix” now. I think that you do but I don’t know. I don’t see any holes in the argument as you suggest. I haven’t stepped over any of your criticisms because I don’t feel that you made any. You made a number of great points about taking care of the self which have impacted my views: I now see the importance of protecting one’s self emotionally. However, my opinion (not really up for debate since neither of us can prove it without trying it) stands that the best thing to do (once you’ve protected yourself) if you have to deal with a narcissist in your life, is to take steps to help them learn a better way of dealing with you rather than merely taking all the crap they dish out. (Ie. Don’t just live with a tyrant, find a way to get them on your side.)

“because you have given up” implies that I have failed in my attempts to get a cure rate on a narcissist not because they are incurable but because I just wasn’t as good as you at managing them.

This kind of stuff is more “matter-of-factly” speaking. Not just for you, but for whoever is asking my opinion. I should have clarified this. I don’t expect you merriment to go back and try again. You’re done with your narcissist and I’m happy for you. You may have another in the future though and this concept would apply: You can either give up on them, block them out and be done with them (as you tried to be done with me) Or you can look for another resolution.. which brings us to your other charge:

“that belief of yours is the reason why you’ll never learn a better way to get along”..implies that I am too ignorant to have an open mind to other methods.

Yes, it does imply that but not in an insulting way. Ignorance isn’t an insult. It’s a very big and important word with me. To me, it’s the root of all “sin” in an absolute, non-metaphorical way. I clarified my use of that word with SeventhSense. My point was in reference to Free Will ideology, not to you as a person. My criticism wasn’t to Merriment. It was to Libertarians in general. Beliefs have real impact. More than most libertarians seem to realize. And each belief has a specific consequence or set of consequences. And THAT libertarian belief specifically: “I believe the only person you can really change is yourself and that goes double for anyone dealing with a narcissist.” as you stated, which I made this comment in response to, necessarily restricts libertarians (such as yourself) from discovering (in the moment!) how to influence positive change in others, like a narcissist.

If you believe you cannot change others, you won’t try. Don’t you agree?
But if it happens to be false that you cannot change others, then your inaccurate belief will cause you not to try and hence miss an opportunity. See what i mean?
Hence, that libertarian belief literally disables you. It’s a defeatist belief by it’s very nature where concerns helping others.

I remember how I felt when I wrote that.. I felt, wow, there’s so much to discuss, how can I say this concisely? And I thought you would have understood that I was speaking to you as a representative of libertarian thought. Not as Merriment. It wasn’t personal at all but clearly, I didn’t succeed at conveying that. My apologies! Do you understand what I mean by this?

I would have put this in private message, but it’s all relevant to the conversation so… blah.. i hope you understand me better. I wasn’t trying to insult you but I’m sorry if you were offended.

as for the furry animal thing.. again, i did not understand that you understood my point because, as i said, it seemed to me that you missed the point and responded to something i didn’t intend.

i had no choice but to say “I don’t think you understood” because i didn’t understand why you didn’t seem to understand. this shouldn’t be construed as me being rude. I really didn’t understand that you understood it!

Hi guys and gals! :) If I may just drop in here for a moment. I’ve done the test (result : Err..lets not go there. :-)) My problem is… on most of the questions I felt I could go either way. (So I’m not really convinced of the result!:)) Now I’m asking myself – What does this mean? Is it possible to be a narcissist in one situation and not in another? Say for instance, at work and at home. Another question: Is narcissism necessarily a bad thing? Is there a such a thing as a good narcissist? Is there a (useful) place in society for the narcissist/ narcissistic character traits? I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Try sales. Having so much confidence in your product that you aren’t at all ashamed to take money from people in exchange for it, makes you a good (and likely wealthy) salesman. As you might imagine, it’s easy for this to be considered narcissistic (in a sense) over your wares.

I didn’t like the test too much either. Seems over simplified, even though my result was favorable.

@SeventhSense I feel your pain, I know exactly how sad it is. You love them and you always will.

I found my comfort from knowing that every morning when I roll out of bed and put my feet down the floor will be where it was the night before. There are no such guarantees in the narcissist’s world.

Peace of mind is the very first cost of doing business with a narcissist.

Holy Crow….where did you all come up with a diagnosis of Narcissism (which BTW isn’t a proper diagnosis even) from the original post. You can’t even make an arguement for Narcissistic personality disorder from what is posted nor any other personality disorder for that matter. What you have is an opinion of one family member citing one incident as an example of what she describes as Munchausens….again not a viable diagnosis.
There may simply be a chaotic household created because of marital discord. Or there could be something more here but certainly it would demand much more history taking and examples than the poster gave.