Why is there so much opposition to any form of Universal healthcare?

You know what? The majority of American’s are FOR health care reform. The ones who are against it are the politicians who have their hands in the insurance corporation’s pockets, and they’re making a whole lot of noise in an effort to convince people that most everyone is against it.

People think it is “socialism”. And that “socialism” (which most of those people who rail against it do not even know what it is) is inherently bad. Basically it is the late growing fruit of decades of Cold War anti-Soviet propaganda.

Because in other countries that have universal health care the quality is much lower. Many people want to pay for their own health care and be able to choose what it entails.

@Val123
I am not blindly following some politicians, I am able to make my own decisions.

If we look at the other “services” the government offers, how could we ever expect them to do healthcare correctly?

Money money money moooneeeeey, MONEY!

@jackm
Because in other countries that have universal health care the quality is much lower
That is simply not true.

Don’t be so naive. Big moneyed interests have known for years and years how to get ordinary people to fear and oppose things that are in their own best interest.

@ragingloli
Have you been to Canada?

@jackm – I happen to live in a country where we have Universal health care, the quality is above and beyond excellent. The nurses, and doctors are all excellently and thoroughly trained and the equipment is almost as advanced as you can get.

@pdworkin . . . Fear is the operative word. We’ve been fed fear for so long I think a lot of folks are beginning to enjoy the taste.

@jackm . . . You can’t just repeat the broad, sweeping statements you’ve been hand fed by the media. You need to back something like that up with hard facts or it is nothing more than empty words.

@jackm
I have been to Germany. Well actually I lived here in the Awesome and Glorious Fatherland™ since I was born and the health care here is excellent.

I’ve only heard horror stories from people living in the US about health care not being universal. I cannot even begin to process the thought of somebody being turned away from a hospital! The idea itself is completely preposterous and very very scary. I’m happy that I can turn in to the walk in clinics or hospitals anytime of the day/month/year and always be considered for proper medical care.

1) Fear of change (oh god change, it was Obama’s slogan!)
2) Fear of socialism (cause we don’t have any social systems in America these days. Public schools, transportation, police, firefighters, these are not paid by taxes. Nope, not at all. Completely different)
3) Dislike for big government. As Thomas jefferson said, A government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have.
4) Living under a rock, and incapable of seeing the millions of people uninsured or underinsured.

You can probably guess which of these 4 I actually agree with.

American’s (in general) tend to be afraid of the word ‘socialism’ for some reason. Which is really quite amusing. It’s just a method of government. Imagine if people cowered in fear at the word ‘monarchy’. But people just hear it being described as ‘socialised medicine’ (which it is) and run around screaming. Possibly with heads aflame.

Not even gonna go as far as talking about the powers in the American private healthcare system. I might kill a few fluther citizens in the ensuing ragestorm.

I think an education in terminology is in order for much of the planet.

In theory it sounds like a good thing.

So did social security when it was first implemented. Now it’s a joke. Our healthcare system needs serious help, but in my opinion more government control is not the answer. As with anything we should allow the free market to work. Require any establishment that provides healthcare to post their prices up front, allowing people to shop around. This would encourage lower costs and better treatment. That’s good for everybody. And that’s capitalism.

@everyone

Please don’t accuse me of just following the media or politicians, it makes you look ignorant.

-There is almost no government agency that is efficient, why trust them with something as important as our lives

-Just because a company is motivated by profit, doesn’t mean it can’t do its job efficiently or accurately. In fact, it usually means it does it better than for other motivations.

-If everything is free, people will not worry about the cost of anything, and the cost of everything will skyrocket.

-No one in america dies from an emerncy medical situation. Hostpitals will always help someone who is sick. There are non-profits who help people with long term illnesses that can not afford the costs.

-If i decided to lead a healthy lifestyle, I will still have to pay for the poor decisions of others, leading me to want to regulate fatty foods, smoking, poor exercise, etc.

-Doctors motivation will go down. No matter what your argument is, people are motivated by money, and some of the bets doctors make the most money.

-Once we do it there is no going back, as people will see it as their right.

@jackm The Canada myth is a non-starter. Do some people wait a few months for a non-emergent hip replacement? Yes. Can everyone get preventative health care, vaccines, medicines for chronic conditions, and specialty care? Yes. Can the same be said of the US. Amazingly, NO.
FYI, I’m a doctor. I see the terrible consequences of lack of healthcare every day, and not just in the “undeserving poor”, but also in the recently unemployed or underemployed affluent. I see the fear in peoples’ eyes as they ponder the massive bills. It breaks my heart.

@missyb – Not only should the medical system give prices upfront but there should be a thorough investigation of the application BEFORE an accident happens. After being approved the one who pays the insurance should have a gaurantee that they will NEVER be dropped as long as they are paying. As well as this, approval rates should soar through the roof, no matter what the case is. Preferably medical coverage (like in Canada) should be mandatory as a way to keep people from cheating the system.

@jackm . . . Slow down. My FOX NEWS to English translator is on the fritz.

@jackm – People should see medical coverage as a right, why would it not be? The whole point of insurance is that everybody helps everybody else. Just because you lead a healthy lifestyle does in no way mean you cannot get hit by a car. I have always said that I would be glad to live my entire life giving my money to an insurance company who I know will one day cover me just as I have covered others when I become in need. Also, people should not be in a situation where they have to have a non-profit group which bails somebody out of medical bills. All your solutions are so much more complicated than getting Universal health care.

@jackm That’s not true. Look at where we rank in Infant mortality

Look at where we rank in other aspects

We are far, far from the best. Only the most expensive.

source

What kind of health insurance do you have? Not Medicaid, I hope!

@jackm – The price of everything has not skyrocketed in Canada yet, and never has. This is definitely not true.

Also, I do trust the Canadian Medical system with my life. I have for 20 years and I will for as long as they can and will keep me alive. My mother and father and their mother’s and father’s have also trusted the Canadian Medical system with their lives and less my grandparents are all living very happy. My grandparents have lived very long lives, all under the Canada MSP.

@Val123 I’m not saying our system isn’t bad..
But could we please get numbers more recent than 1998?

@LeopardGecko I agree with you, but not on requiring people to buy health insurance. That sets a bad precident of requiring someone to purchase something in order to be a legal citizen.

@jackm If you had any original thoughts, people wouldn’t accuse you of spouting the party line. Sentence by sentence your post is regurgitated right wing propaganda, as funded and laid out in talking points by United Health Care and Aetna.

If you want to be taken seriously you will have to admit that the Army is a Government operation, as are public schools, police and fire departments, the US Postal Service (which is impeccable – who else can get a letter from any farm in Idaho to any apartment in Manhattan for $0.47) the VA. Medicare, Medicaid, the Pentagon, the Coast Guard, the Army Corps of Engineers, the TVA, I could go on and on.

@Sarcasm The numbers are the same or worse today.

@jackm My experience with both government and private-sector largely disproves your theory about efficiency. And Germany seems to have quite a large number of private-sector insurance companies so it’s not like the two are mutually exclusive.
While it’s true that they may not die from an emergency situation, the resulting expenses can be just as devastating. Sure, bankruptcy isn’t lethal, but try racking up six-digit medical bills when you are uninsured and see what sort of quality-of-life you have afterwards.
But maybe if there was a little oversight, costs would not have skyrocketed to where they are now. I mean, why should I pay a hospital $50 or more for two Tylenol? All that does is raise insurance premiums for us all. And maybe doctors would not need to earn so much if their education were a little less costly, which would mean scholarships, subsidies, etcetera.

I’ve heard those arguments before and they are the ones that make no sense.

@Sarcasm It turned into a pain finding the stats! I have to go soon, but feel free to search! Plus, if anything, I’m sure the spending, etc. has skyrocketed since then, so yes. Current stats would be even more compelling!

@jackm It’s amazing that you can look at people who have always had universal coverage and basically tell them they don’t know what they’re talking about!

What’s even more amazing is the overwhelming number of people on Medicare and Medicaid who are against it!

@missyb – I understand your point, but the necessity for people being required to have health insurance would allow it so that nobody can cheat the system ie, you find out you have cancer and then buy insurance. Health insurance should be a right to have and be forced to be bought since it can save lives. It’s a sense of security that leaves you fearless through out your days.

@jerv Doctors don’t earn as much as you think, but I believe that in a market economy, the amount of training required (i.e. more than 10 years including college) warrants a reasonable living. Plus, even restricting doctor’s salaries won’t make a dent in the high costs of medical care. We need, as a country, to take full stock of our situation. That includes insurance, doctor’s fees, costs of tests, availability of tests, whether we want to spend >$1 million dollars keeping elderly patients alive, etc. There will not be a quick fix.

@Val123 – touche’

-There is almost no government agency that is efficient, why trust them with something as important as our lives

Then please go and propose that the Police, Armed Forces, Firefighters, FAA, etc be abolished. Everytime you rely on them you trust them with your life. And do not forget the Blackwater debacle.

-Just because a company is motivated by profit, doesn’t mean it can’t do its job efficiently or accurately. In fact, it usually means it does it better than for other motivations.

Explain then why Medicare has 10 times less overhead (read: is more efficient) than private insurers. Or why the German Public Insurance system costs less and delivers more than the American private insurers.

-If everything is free, people will not worry about the cost of anything, and the cost of everything will skyrocket.#
See above.

-No one in america dies from an emerncy medical situation. Hostpitals will always help someone who is sick. There are non-profits who help people with long term illnesses that can not afford the costs.
That is because they are bound by law to provide treatment in Emergency Cases. And who carries the cost of that? The taxpayer.
And people do die because they are denied life saving treatments (e.g. non-E.R. cases) by the insurers.

-Doctors motivation will go down. No matter what your argument is, people are motivated by money, and some of the bets doctors make the most money.
If they are just in it for the money, then they should find another job.
Also, some of the richest musicians make the worst music. Those who love their Job most do the best work.

-Once we do it there is no going back, as people will see it as their right.
Good. Because it is.

If the doctors stand to lose so much money, why is every doctor I know FOR the reform? Maybe because they want to help everyone, not just the privileged few who have insurance.

Government healthcare cuts into the profits of wealthy executives who would rather that people die from “preexisting conditions” than be unable to buy that new Beemer every year.

The claim that government health care is inferior is a blatant lie. Health care in the UK is of equivalent quality to being in an HMO in the States.

Well, @jerv To my original point…most Americans are FOR it!

@shilolo True, but I think that they could earn a little less and still maintain the same standard of living that they currently enjoy if they didn’t have to repay massive student loans.
Hell, if it were easier to afford a decade of schooling, we may have more people that want to be doctors actually do it!

@Val123 That’s as may be, but there is still quite a lot of opposition. It’s not like those against it are just a minuscule percentage of the populace… or lobbying power.

@jerv – not only does the school student loans keep doctors out, but the extreme limitations of seats available keep doctors out of the job as well. The applicant acceptance rate is less than 12% with more than 50% of these applicants being qualified for a spot. A lot of first time applicants can get in when they re-apply without changing anything. Here in British Columbia for example UBC lets in 268 medical students every year, we have more than 1700 applicants applying for a spot. Our government is constantly complaining about lack of doctors in Canada….doesn’t make sense.

@jerv I don’t know! Honestly, I know of very, very few people who are genuinely against it! And the one’s who are, like @jackm have nothing to back them except those rumors that are so insane only an idiot would believe them! I think most of us are not idiots.

I’ve never met anyone who is actually against Universal Healthcare. I know they exist, but the people I see crying about it are private healthcare insurers and Republicans.

I’m not entirely knowledgeable about the entire economy, but from what I’ve put together, I only see Universal Health care as a detriment to affordable and quality care. If no one really had health insurance or health care, then the entire medical field would have to lower it’s prices for services quite dramatically in order for the masses to afford them, or else they’d be out of jobs. Sure some of the hefty price tag goes into production costs, etc., but doctors certainly make quite outrageous sums. Sure doctors save lives on a daily basis but so do firemen, and they don’t make shit.

@LeopardGecko I hadn’t thought of that, I guess I just default to people being honest, if self-serving. I still think requiring citizens to buy something is a slippery slope. Once big government takes control of something it’s all but impossible to reverse it. Can you tell I’m of a libertarian persuasion?

@Anon_Jihad – You’re right about everything you’ve said besides the amount Doctor’s make. The average doctor earns around $150,000 – $200,000 a year. Quite warranted for the amount of work they do. Much more than a fireman.

@LeopardGecko I wouldn’t say that doctors do more work than firemen. It’s a different kind of work, for sure, but doctors don’t risk their own lives in order to save other people, either.

@LeopardGecko I’m not saying tey don’t deserve what they get, I’m saying this should earn what they generate, if no one can afford their services well they obviously need to do some price adjusting.

@Anon_Jihad and @DrasticDreamer It doesn’t take 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 3–7 years of residency and 3–5 years of specialty training to become a fireman. During all that time, you are either paying for school, or getting paid a pittance for 80–100 hour weeks. It makes sense to reward people for that amount of training and dedication. I’ve spent more time in training than anyone I know, in any field.

@shilolo I’m not saying I disagree with you, at all. However, in the case of firemen risking their own lives in order to save someone else’s? Maybe firemen should make more money, too. Doctors and firemen both save lives, just in different ways.

You guys are embarrassing yourself. I am in no way a conservative, I have never described myself as that. I am not “spouting conservative propaganda”.

There are longer waiting times in Canada,
We have much more technology than Canada,
Our doctors earn more than Canadians
Canadian doctors move to the US to practice

@Blondesjon
I don’t watch fox news, or any other news channel, but if they report this, then I would agree with them.

@LeopardGecko
You purchase that insurance coverage voluntarily, With universal healthcare it is not voluntary. very BIG difference. My solutions are not more complicated, its actually the least complicated. Do nothing, let people figure it out.

@pdworkin
I will admit all of those are government organizations. Please point out where I claimed they were not. Do you take me seriously now?

@jerv
The high costs associated with healthcare today come from the fact that they are tied to our job, not to ourselves. The is because the government did what it does best, and meddled with something they had no business in. (They put salary caps to “help” people get jobs. Companies just offered high health insurance as a different form of payment to get around this.)

@Val123
I know plenty of doctors against the reform (actually, all the med students I know are against it) When you say I believe “rumors that are so insane only an idiot would believe them” you sound very intelligent. Oh wait, I meant ignorant, sorry I am an idiot and don’t know words.

I am done here, as I know you guys wont be convinced with simple logic, and that is all I have on my side. I hope you see that assuming the opposition is all idiots make your side look even worse.

@Anon_Jihad If an insurance company paid the firefighters $10,000 for every fire they put out, I bet a lot more fires would pop up! The reason the doctors and hospitals make so much is because they can charge the insurance companies almost any amount! So they do. Their prices are horribly inflated.

I don’t have a problem with the amount of money Doctors get. I have a problem with the fact that my kids are working, but can’t afford health care. And they NEED it. My daughter got mugged and hurt pretty badly. She has a $30,000 bill that there is no way in hell she can pay! Which stops her from going for follow up care. The debt collectors will follow her to her grave.

@jackm What kind of health care coverage do you have?

@shilolo I’m not saying they don’t deserve it, in fact as a strong proponent of Social Darwinism I believe that people deserve what they make, because that’s what they made, simply as is.

However it seems to me that Universal Healthcare or any form of social healthcare is counter-productive to the problem, instead of making things affordable by free market demand, it takes away a persons ability to ever afford it.

@Anon_Jihad How do you figure that?

@Val123 Exactly! With the public alternatives being forced, we’re unable to see an actual solution. We’re surrendering our power to control the market with our money, and letting the Medical field decide what the prices will be, instead of us dictating what we’re willing to pay and forcing them to come to our level.

@Anon_Jihad But as it stands, the for-profit insurance monsters decide what the prices will be, which is HIGH.

@Anon_Jihad
Not exactly. In Germany, the amount of money someone has to pay into the system is a fixed percentage depending on the insurer (which means that even among the public insurers, the premiums vary slightly, so you can save money by comparing, e.g. there is competition even among the public insurers). That money is collected by the Government and then distributed to highly regulated non profit insurance companies based on the number of insured they have.
Hospitals and doctors can not dictate prices because 90 percent of the population are publicly insured, and the amount of available money to extract from them, through the public insurers has a fixed limit. They can not dicate prices, because they have no real better paying alternative.

@ragingloli GA

What’s more, University education is virtually free in most of Germany, and there is better protection of doctors from lawsuits, so this need to earn a lot of money to pay back debt is also virtually nonexistant.
And how many peole in the US can get house visits from their family doctor? Or whose insurance pays for someone to help you take care of your baby when you have one? Or go to any doctor you like, swipe a small plastic card through a scanner, get your treament and then not have to worry about any invoices or paperwork afterwards at all? Waiting times are also barely existant. When I had a wart on my head removed, I waited less than a week. And if you have children, they are automatically covered by your insurance for no extra charge or premium, and there are no copays on meds at all for them.

@ragingloli It’s free here too, to students who qualify financially.

There has been a campaign for many years to teach Americans to see everything that the “other” guy gets as taking something from them. There is no cooperation, no concern for their fellow man, nothing but me, me, me.

Everybody is looking to be the “winner” and they mistakenly assume that means there MUST be a loser.

You see it in all areas but because health care or the lack of it here is such a potentially catastrophic issue it is even more apparent.

In my lifetime I have watched America become a bitter, selfish “screw the other guy” nation led by greedy corporations and crooked politicians.

Until we wake up and see that anything we participate that harms the other citizens of our fair country is weakening to us all, we will forever be exactly where the milking machines want us. Shoving the other guy into the chute to avoid having our own tit squeezed, never realizing that the “escape” chute we think we are getting into is really the doorway to the meat packing plant.

No nation can stand up and call itself “great” when it’s children are dying for lack of food, shelter and adequate health care. ANY of it’s children.

I hope we realize this in time.

@jackm You said no Government Agency should be trusted with our lives. I was asking why those agencies I named shouldn’t be trusted. If you need further explanation, let me know and I will be pleased to try to help you.

I don’t see what is wrong with corporations seeking profit, in fact I think it should be encouraged. Instead of blaming the corporations for doing exactly what they were created for and nothing else, why not seek to inform people? Then when the next douchebag shoe giant decides to open a sweatshop somewhere in Asia people realize that there money can say, “No!” and actually have effect.

I see no problem with greed, it seems to be controllable with knowledge, and let’s not be silly, greed has brought us a lot of advancements, many discoveries and inventions would never have seen the light of day if more people had less concern for their own promotion.

@Anon_Jihad You see no ethical problems with health care being a for-profit enterprise? The inequities don’t disturb you? Have you thought this through at all?

The greed is the reason why your system is in shambles. Providers charge a lot, Insurers pay it and then the insurers charge their fair share of that too and more from you. And then, because of greed, they drop or deny your coverage because of costs. I think that constitutes a problem.

Yes I have, I see no issues at all. Because my dollar will go elsewhere if I dislike even a companies inner-politics. If we stepped away from public models and instead educated the masses with the simple knowledge that their money is power, they could take their dollar elsewhere as well. If the corporations decided to place profit above all else then they would fear their customer base moving against them, they’d have to seek people’s favors. A company is charging too much? Enter Mr. Entrepreneur seeking to build his riches by offering what the other won’t, cheaper goods and services, sure he’ll make less at first, but overall he’ll sell a much higher quantity keeping him in business far longer.

I see that you have not though it through, as I suspected. There is no competition, sir. These companies hold monopolies, per state.

@pdworkin Whatever happened to the Sherman Antitrust Act? The whole attitude of opposing monopolies? There seem to be far more government regulations helping these companies not face opposition than there is helping the people suffer from the problem which is leading to government regulation to help the people.

The health care industry has been exempt from these regulations for years. Do you live in the US? Perhaps you should consider a subscription to a newspaper of some sort.

@pdworkin I know this, what I’m saying is instead of giving full control of the situation to the government, who created the problem by allowing these companies through the regulations they hold others to, which seems like poor planning to me, why not instead order our government, which is supposed to answer to us, to actually fix the problem, by doing what it was supposed to all along and make sure the market is wide for the people to vote with their wallets?

@jackm

“There are longer waiting times in Canada,”
~If I get sick, I’m waiting until it’s a life threatening emergency before I seek treatment, because I can’t afford to drop $75 – $150 for a doctor’s visit. Waiting a day to see your GP in Canada beats that waiting time, easy.

We have much more technology than Canada,
~Source?

Our doctors earn more than Canadians
~Source?

Canadian doctors move to the US to practice
~Source, and point?

@Anon_Jihad I owned my own business. Of course there is nothing wrong with profit. But when it turns to outright greed and the price is measured, literally, in human lives, then there is a problem. They weren’t created solely to make a profit. They were created to create a pool that all people could benefit from, while the company made some money in the process. It’s turned into a monster.

Your argument of ”“Cheaper goods and services”” shows you’re trying to compare insurance companies with Walmart. If you’re REALLY pissed, you can just quit buying there altogether, or just quit buying that particular product. You can’t just quit buying insurance premiums if you can afford them! And that’s the crux. The people in crisis are those who can’t afford $400+ (and that’s cheap nowadays) for the premiums. They’re the ones who need help! Those are the ones the reform is reaching out for. Your argument is worthless to those people

As @pdworkin said, They have a monopoly. The only thing that make it legal is that there is more than one insurance company. However, all of their premiums are comparable to each other, and out of the reach of the average American family.

@Seek_Kolinahr Well, and the funny thing is, we have one and two week wait times here in America to see the doctor! Months for a dentist! But that’s better than never seeing them at all.

@Anon_Jihad All we need is the Public Option that Lieberman took out of the bill, after having received millions of dollars from his pals from Aetna.

@Val123
“They weren’t created solely to make a profit. They were created to create a pool that all people could benefit from”
~No they weren’t. They were created to protect individuals from losses made in their business ventures, to not be held personally responsible when making deals and taking monetary risks.

“The only thing that make it legal is that there is more than one insurance company”
~Because of obvious cartels. Again legal action is supposed to be taken against companies who pull these stunts, yet the insurance companies get ignored while they’re the biggest perpetrators? So since our government is allowing them to ride through and fuck us “The People” we’re going to allow them to take full control, never mind that we’ve been encouraging and demanding them to, and then expect them to have our best interest in mind? I’m sorry but that sounds like pure foolishness.

@Anon_Jihad What insurance do you have? What kind of “shopping around” did you do to get it?

@Val123 I have none. I’m currently unemployed and job hunting. I’m able to get MassHealth coverage but decided against it.

@Anon_Jihad So, how would you be able to get MassHealth (What is that? Something to do with Massachusetts?) if you wanted it, and why have you decided against it?

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eohhs2agencylanding&L=4&L0=Home&L1=Government&L2=Departments+and+Divisions&L3=MassHealth&sid=Eeohhs2

”#

The MassHealth program provides comprehensive health insurance — or help in paying for private health insurance — to more than one million Massachusetts children, families, seniors, and people with disabilities.
#
Mission Statement

To help the financially needy obtain high-quality health care that is affordable, promotes independence, and provides customer satisfaction.
”

Now we need to know why he choose not to get it…..

@Val123 I qualify for and have been approved for MassHealth, which is healthcare for the financially needy in Massachusetts. If I chose to accept it, for as long as I stay at my current income level all visits to my Primary Care Physician are paid for, visits to specialists, like one I used to see for an eye issue, are paid for, a free pair of glasses of every two years, meds would be one dollar for generic brand and three dollars for brand name, quite comprehensive. I chose against it because I don’t think I should take advantage of a system I think isn’t helping the problem, and in fact only encouraging the kind of bullshit that got us here in the first place.

@Anon_Jihad Nice. Quite moralistic, aren’t we. Very healthy young man, single, no children. But I bet you’d jump at it if you had a crystal ball and knew in advance that you were going to come down with some life-threatening disease or illness or injury.

And what about those who don’t quite qualify as “financially needy” but don’t make nearly enough to pay for private insurance companies? They’re working, unlike you, supporting entire families on, say, $12 an hour. What about them? What about their kids?

It would help the problem (if you assume the problem to be the practices of private insurers) if it became more accessible, preferably to everyone, because that would create competition, and by extension, decreased profits, probably actual losses, the best incentive for private insurers to stop the bullshit they do on their own. This program exists now, has the future option of being expanded into an actual solution to the problem and If I were you, I would support it, and I would support and lobby for an expansion, because with this program, you have a real opportunity to help solve the problem.

Of course, If you would define the problem as the fact that millions of people are uninsured and lack access to affordable health care, then this system is already helping to solve the problem.

Gotta go. Carry on Raggie!!

@Val123 I have sweet hypertension, the lowest my pressure has been recorded at in the past four years is 196 over 98, I’m blind in one eye and a cornea transplant which that healthcare plan would entirely cover, would fix this. Other minor issues that don’t interfere with my day to as far an extent as those are for more easily ignored.

But I’ll still not accept the coverage because I don’t agree with the system, and I’m going to be honest to myself until I leave this place.

@Anon_Jihad ,That makes way too much since for @pdworkin

Sure roll out an ad hominem against me, since I haven’t posted for a few hours. You’re quite shameless, @Mandomike.

With 83 answers and counting, no doubt someone has said this already, but it’s ideological. Worse, it’s about robbing the public. Right now, insurance companies have been given a license to steal. The excuse for this license is “competition.”

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as meaningful competition in the US. The insurers, sure they compete to pick off the healthy folks. But we pay for the rest—the old and the poor; the least healthy people in our population, and the most expensive to care for.

The insurers have a gazillion bucks at stake, and they have some very friendly ears in Congress. Ears made more friendly by large campaign contributions. It’s the same old story. So their friends in Congress are holding up any reform that might hurt insurers profits, and making sure that the insurers will make more money than ever, while the consumers will get shafted even more.

They get away with this because there is a God in America called Competition. If you do anything that you can persuade other people is anti-competitive, you can stop it. It’s so easy to say things are anti-competitive in this country that a baby could do it. Bingo! So much for health care reform.

I’m of the opinion that we’d be better off without reform. This reform is just going to gain more money for insurers without actually helping any more people—well, maybe one or two. But it will fail, and then the conservatives will say “I told you so,” and since it was the Democrats who did it, they’ll get all the blame, notwithstanding the impact the moderate and conservative politicians had on the reform—essentially gutting it.

The story is ideology, and, in this country, the story has always been ideology. It is only when things get horribly, horribly bad that we’ll have any real reform. Single Payer. We all need to be in the same risk pool. That is the most efficient way, and least costly way of insuring all of us. i don’t see this happening in my lifetime.

@Mandomike
How would you possibly know an argument that makes “since” (It is “sense” by the way). This is a rethorical question, based on the fact that you have not been able to form a coherent argument in support of your position since you came here.

I don’t know why there is, I have private insurance and recently came down with an illness that requires me to see specialists, my insurance company wouldn’t approve or pay for the visits. It shocked me as I had no idea until it was too late. I am faced with medical bills that are sky rocketing. I cannot switch to another company because it is pre-exsisting now. Universal Health care is needed.

I don’t qualify for programs or assistance with these bills. My condition is getting better, but it is going to be some time before it is all over and I have already reached my limit on some procedures, that I need. If I don’t get them the illness will only get worse. Thankfuly my Doctor has agreed to allow me to make payments for now…=Z He wants the Universal Health care as well. He owns some of his equipment and managed to do a few tests without charge.

How can it be a bad thing to get the help and care you need when you need it? I thought I had decent insurance, too bad it took a major illness to find out I don’t. I would rather spend my money on something I know I can depend on.

Nay sayers have obviously never been in the boat I, along with thousands if not more than are. It is easy to see the need from where I am standing.

Here’s what so many don’t understand… we’re already paying for those who can’t afford health care. If I (uninsured, with multiple health issues) had to go to the hospital today, I couldn’t pay for it. Do you think the hospital just eats those expenses? Absolutely not… they spread them around to everyone who can pay.

Support universal health insurance, and spread that cost out to everyone, and the cost per person will go down. I’m so mad at Joe Lieberman right now, I could kick him.

@butterflykisses I do have some serious health concerns, but I’m putting off dealing with them until I can do in a fashion that does not make me a hypocrite. I don’t see a need for it, what I see is a far from optimal solution that does little to actually fix the problem and exists more to sweep it under the rug.

@jackm You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that I think that the Canadian system is the best in the world.

@jackm – It should not be voluntary. It should be mandatory that the citizens of a country purchase health insurance. It’s much more complicated….I don’t see how having health care to begin with is more difficult than being rushed to the Emerg then having to find or having a non-profit group find you, to raise money to pay for something you should have been responsible enough to get yourself, as well what if it’s non-emerg? That whole systems useless. Considering ALL of those circumstances, it IS much easier to have Universal health care, saying otherwise would just be silly.

@EveryoneElse A metaphor – Universal Health Care: You pay a small amount of money for a truck to deliver groceries to your house on a fixed schedule, getting exactly what you need every time, it will always come and if the truck breaks down the company pays for it, the even check for stuff you don’t need.

Medicaid: You pay a really small amount whenever you want groceries, you must file a report in advance that you require groceries, updating your list every time, some of the groceries don’t even get there, some times the truck doesn’t even come at all. If the truck ever fails in any way you must pay for all of the damages even if you’re broke. Sometimes you can head down to the food bank to get food if there’s any left and rarely you can ask your in-laws to give you money you don’t have to pay back.

I want Universal health care!

Food for thought:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, section 23, subsection 3:
“Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.”

Universal Declaration of Human Rights, section 25, subsection 1:
“Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.”

Not everybody who works can afford insurance, and last I checked about 1 out of 5 Americans wasn’t working. (The official unemployment figures do not count those whose benefits have expired or who just gave up.)

@LeopardGecko
“It should not be voluntary. It should be mandatory that the citizens of a country purchase health insurance”
~This is an opinion, and there have been plenty of arguments in this discussion to give pause to this sort of thinking, you appear to have taken a a “tl;dr” attitude and jumped in a bit out of your element. Either that or I’m smelling a troll and for some reason am reluctant to realize it.

“it IS much easier to have Universal health care”
~Very true, it’s also easier to lay over and die when life gets difficult. This is in no way a valid point.

I find your faith disturbing. You post suggests that you think that the system will magically start working efficiently as it is promised with UHC unlike it has with any other large scale program.

Unfortunately it IS more about profit than care. The stumbling block though, is, who gets credit? Perfectly useful plans will be disregarded entirely because of its sponsor. Between that and all of the pork that gets added to these plans when they try to shove them trough congress. They would have a better chance if they would, at least, refrain from tacking on extraneous crap.

@Anon_Jihad – I haven’t taken any other stand than what I’ve come in with, obviously it’s still a discussion if you’re bringing this up right now. Yes, it is an opinion, if you haven’t realized this, most of everything on this site is an opinion, that’s what we do here. Why would you even think about calling me out on that?

Your second point doesn’t make any sense after you agreed with me….are you saying that getting some good health care shouldn’t be easy, but hard work? Again with your second point being preposterous, if UHC is easy, why would you want to make health care difficult? Do you enjoy the challenge of Medicaid? I hope you don’t throw that mindless comment out too often, too bad it didn’t work, you could win every debate like that couldn’t you. UHC is easy and health care should be easy too which is what UHC makes it…following? If you have UHC you get health care when you need it, how you want, there isn’t any of this bullshit Medicaid heinous business going on. Everybody here agrees with me on that, being that it’s unanimous besides you, I’d really like to know why you think that Medicaid is so much easier than UHC?

I don’t have faith to back up my argument, I do not use faith for anything. I use logic and facts. UHC works in Canada, nobody ever has any of those stupid useless problems that occur in the US. If it works up here, it’s going to work down there. The system isn’t about to change when you move a couple degrees south of the Canadian border,as long as it’s done the same way we’ve fabricated it up here it will work. Why hasn’t it been done down there if it works so well? Because heartless insurance corporations like money, and lots of it. I find it very disturbing that you and your countries system is so terrible that you cannot even see that a logical system does actually work since you’ve been burdened with our own for so long. UHC isn’t magical, it isn’t make believe, it’s real, I live it everybody and it’s perfect. Either you’re working for Medicaid or you’re a troll yourself.

I have to give pause to the idea that “it should be mandatory for every citizen to purchase health insurance”.

It’s already mandatory to own car insurance and homeowners’ insurance. I don’t think anyone can say these are affordable or well-regulated.

Consider those that do not have health insurance because they cannot afford the premiums. Are we going to fine them if they do not spend money they do not have – every month – to buy health insurance instead of paying rent or their electricity bill?

I will use myself as an example, as my family is of the “working poor”. Since the housing crisis, there is a considerable dearth of work in my husband’s field. We cannot afford to pay childcare and all other extra expenses involved in my working as well, so I work at home and sell my handiwork (I sew a little) online to make a few extra dollars. We barely make ends meet, when we aren’t completely in the red.

If I had to buy insurance, that money would have to come from somewhere. Where, then? Food? the mortgage? I suppose I could sacrifice my internet connection to contribute to the premium, but then I would also be sacrificing my only source of income, as well as what has become a basic tool of daily existence in this age. I suppose we’d have to be subjected to the fine… though I don’t know how we’d pay that, either.

@Seek_Kolinahr The mandate in the bill also proposed subsidies.

@pdworkin
I’d need more information on that. What form would “subsidies” take? Tax credits would do no good, as we don’t make enough money to benefit from them. Would it be a sort of voucher for insurance premiums?

No, you would pay no premium for a family of four making less than 160% of a certain minimum income. After that, the premium begins, but the full force of the premium doesn’t come into play. I’m sorry, I haven’t the figures before me, and besides I’m sure they are subject to change. The idea is that if everyone participates, the law of large numbers will work so that the healthy will subsidize the ill, and the wealthy will subsidize the poor. That’s what is supposed to happen, and in fact does happen with Medicare – that’s one of the reasons that Medicare is so much more efficient.

@LeopardGecko No, I’m saying the easiest way is not exactly the best way, I’m suggesting that is the wrong direction to head to fix the problem. Accepting socialized healthcare in no way addresses the problems that got us to the point where this “need” developed. Sure slapping a bandaid on it will fix it all up for now, but those same problems will likely spike up in other areas of our economy.

@pdworkin In that case, it would have to be regionally adjusted and they would have to take a look at what income level really constitutes poverty. For instance, you can survive fairly well of $20K/yr in most of the South but try living in Boston on that and you’re screwed; you’ll be lucky to get housing, never mind utilities, clothing, food, transportation, or anything else.

@Seek_Kolinahr That is part of what doesn’t make sense to me. It seems that many opponents of UHC are of the opinion that there are so many well-paying jobs out there for the asking that the only people who can’t make ends meet are the lazy bastards. I think that that delusion may be the source of the problem right there.

@pdworkin ,That’s why Medicare is insolvent.

@Mandomike You and I both know that Medicare is not insolvent. That’s just more party-line propaganda. It is underfunded for its term, because projections were made before the Bush Depression.

@pdworkin ,Bush depression!HAHAHA, how about Barney Frank depression, or Maxine Waters depression.

@Mandomike @pdworkin Lets not make this into a partisan blood-feud here. it I wanted to see that sort of hostility, I’d get cable and turn to C-span!

@Mandomike – I think it safe to say that this is the deepest one in a while, and considering that we are still operating off of Bush-43’s budget plan as we have been for a few years now, either the White House has no effect on the economy or we can blame W for this current mess.
Considering what has happened to the economies of other nations on Earth (yes, we are not the only country!) I am inclined to believe that the economy is pretty much beyond Washington’s control anyways.

@Mandomike I see the Ha-ha-ha, but I see nothing that shows that Medicare is insolvent. I assume you have substituted ad hominem for substance, as is your wont.

You said that this is a Bush Depression and I strongly disagree. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Is that where I will find out that Medicare is insolvent? If I were inclined to be rude, I would say that you are full of a certain kind of shit.

@pdworkin , Ignore the facts, that is what I have come to expect from you. You won’t get away with your drive by comments with me pal.

@Mandomike Funny really. Republicans pushing for regulation and Democrats wanting a more hands-off approach. To me, it only proves that politicians are politicians regardless of party and that neither party is sticking to the ideals on which it was founded.

But that begs the follow-up question; how can the government be inept and inefficient at providing medical coverage yet be fit to oversee Fanny and Freddie? You can’t have it both ways; either the Republicans were wrong to call for regulation there or they are wrong to assume that the government would bungle healthcare.

Like I said, facts don’t mean much to you guys, you just saw why fannie May and Freddie Mack were able to cause such a disaster but all I get is Funny really,,,,Really?

@Mandomike You seem to think that that was the only cause of it while overlooking what else was going on both in our own country and all over the world, so there is an element of smoke-and-mirrors to it. Facts mean a lot to me, but that includes all facts, the BIG picture, not just those facts that support a position.
It was a perfect storm, and either it was unavoidable or the root cause of it wasn’t anything that the Democrats did on their own (the GOP has never been totally powerless, especially as of 2004) which is partly why I did not want this to get partisan. I am more interested in this whole thing making sense than is watching fights.

Or is it that the opposition is solely because the Democrats want Universal Healthcare so therefore it must be opposed on general principle? Has the common good and the well-being of our country taken a back seat to partisan bickering? I’m not being facetious here (for once); I honestly want to know, and so far that is the only theory that makes sense to me.

And yes, the role-reversal is rather funny to me. I guess I just have a weird sense of humour, but it’s also why I am not registered as either a Democrat or a Republican.

I have come to oppose this “reform package” over the last few days. for the very reasons that Bernie Sanders btw, one of the very few honest people in the Senate stated. The proposed system is such a mess of complexities and payoffs to monied interests. Universal Single-payer Healthcare is what we need and what has worked so well in other nations. They don’t need to reinvent the wheel. Just take the Canadian, UK, German, Scandinavian or NZ system, cut-and-paste. We need a paradigm shift. Peoples health should not be a corporate profit-center item.

Bingo! GA, @stranger_in_a_strange_land.

Under a proper system one does not have to be concerned about the “affordability of premiums” as they are simply paid as taxes. The income taxes are already progressively based. So you should be paying based on ability to pay rather than some actuaries tables. Social Security and Medicare have worked this way for many years. It is letting the profit-grabbers into the system that will poison it. BTW, I’m weathy enough that I would be paying the highest rates under such a system, yet I support it because it is right,

@stranger_in_a_strange_land I have heard some people claim that healthcare is not a right (which contradicts the UDHR, but that doesn’t matter since the US isn’t concerned with what everyone else does or how they think) because someone else has to give it to you.
I have also heard (often from the same people) that progressive taxation removes incentive to succeed; why earn more if Uncle Sam is going to take more. Furthermore, the rich should keep more of their money so that it will trickle down somehow… even if that means taking money from the poor/middle-class.

Can you see how that might not make sense to me?

@jerv We’re frequency-locked on this one, comrade.

@jerv
“Can you see how that might not make sense to me?”
~Not really, I was raised to appreciate the value of hard work, I don’t believe anyone has the right to take from others at gunpoint to call it fair. Sometimes in ways that may be cutthroat sure, sometimes illegal, sometimes morally questionable, but what others have, they actually earned.

I believe a human right is that ones possessions are their own, and no one elses. Sure people should pay taxes to contribute to the services we all use, but the services should be necessary and not quick cures for problems caused by government sticking its head into the market.

Theft is still a crime, and sometimes the “Greater Good” doesn’t have The People’s interest in mind, but instead that of big businesses.

If everyone in this thread could watch this video maybe you could understand where @Anon_Jihad is coming from.

Just watch it all, its not that long.

@Anon_Jihad Considering that Warren Buffet pays less taxes (as a percentage of his income) than a low-income person such as me and far less than his (middle-class) secretary, I think that the best way to put it is that I agree with you in principle but not in details.

I agree that what we need are long-term solutions and not band-aids. However, this is a problem that has been going on for decades and has suddenly gotten worse due to the high unemployment rates and people losing medical coverage as a result. I would like to avoid government intervention if I could but the private sector isn’t getting the job done. That makes government aid to the ~13% of Americans without medical coverage pretty much a requirement…. unless you are in favor of letting the financially disadvantaged sicken and die. Gawd forbid that we have government regulation that makes the private sector reform itself!

I mean, I can’t see how you can be against universal healthcare without being against Social Security, food stamps, and unemployment as well. When the job market was good, I paid in, and the insurance companies got quite a chunk of change since my medical bills (not just the co-pays, but the amount they paid out) was far less than my premiums. So either I am due for a little something or it’s every person for themselves and the poor can just suffer… and I got ripped off by the private sector!

As for actually earned, I wonder how much work a CEO does compared to, say, the thousands of employees under them. Sure, it’s a tough job and all, but unless/until they are working 37,000+ hours a day, filing every form, answering every phone, sweeping every hallway, cleaning every toilet, etcetera, I think it safe to say that their compensation packages are slightly inflated, especially those that received “Performance bonuses” at times where the company was in the red, heading towards bankruptcy, stock values plummeted, and they otherwise failed to perform. If I could get tens of millions of dollars for fucking up, I would never try to succeed!

That said, there are some rich people who do things right and just happen to collect a few dollars on the way. Microsoft decided to branch out a few times over the years, created a whole bunch of jobs to design. build, and sell their new products, and made Bill Gates enough money that he could give half of it to philanthropy and still have enough that his great-grand-children will never have to work. (Ironically, his son supports the estate tax that is opposed on general principle by many Conservatives who don’t have an estate large enough to be affected by it (less than $3.5 million).)

@jackm There is quite a bit of truth to that. However, that also means that the planet is overpopulated (the supply far exceeds the demand) so human life is practically worthless.
Thanks for the pick-me-up!

@jerv
“I wonder how much work a CEO does compared to, say, the thousands of employees under the”
~Someone has to do that aspect of the job, and it takes quite the mind for numbers and business to do it. Few of those thousands of employees have any ability to tackle the position.

” the private sector isn’t getting the job done”
~I don’t think the private sector was ever given a chance. Both the medical and insurance fields have quite some exclusivity and government protection they have no right having.

“I can’t see how you can be against universal healthcare without being against”
-“Social Security”
~I am
-“food stamps”
~This social program I am not as opposed to and would prefer my tax dollars pay for this over most other social programs, if not all of them.
-“unemployment”
~I am militantly opposed to this social program, or at least for how it currently stands. It has power to do good but supports far many more bums who don’t deserve a penny from anyone even if they were laying bleeding in a gutter. With a massive overhaul that left no stone unturned I’d be far more keen to support it.

“That said, there are some rich people who do things right and just happen to collect a few dollars on the way.”
~It’s this attitude I am unable to understand. No one owes me shit, and I certainly deserve nothing that belongs to anyone else. What is wrong with trying to make a lot of money? What is wrong with hoping to step up your quality of life? Is it wrong because others aren’t doing so well? Well we’ve got only one life to live, and honestly while helping people with your life is admirable, there’s just nothing wrong with stopping to enjoy your own.

“Warren Buffet pays less taxes (as a percentage of his income) than a low-income person such as me”
~What in bleeding Christ’s name gives us a right to take what he has? Having more shouldn’t require you to pay more.

@Anon_Jihad

But why does having less require one to pay more?

@Anon_Jihad
because it is society that enables him to make the money in the first place.
and
if you have stuff to carry, is it not reasonable that the muscle bursting hulk carries more than the weaklish child?

@Anon_Jihad

”..it takes quite the mind for numbers and business to do it. Few of those thousands of employees have any ability to tackle the position.”
Business is all about charisma and debasing yourself. And trust me, I have a better head for numbers than many of those guys. You really don’t know who you are dealing with ;)
By your logic, prostitutes earn even more than CEOs, so I will assume that you are wrong. Then again, you already fucked up half of that statement right off the bat…

“Both the medical and insurance fields have quite some exclusivity and government protection they have no right having.”
I think we have a mismatch of terminology here. I consider anything not run by the government to be “private sector”.

I agree that unemployment needs a little work, but I think you need to take a look at the job market right now, take a look at the wages the relatively few jobs available have compared to the cost of living, and basically get a view of the big picture before you go too much further with that… or are you for euthanizing/executing 1 out of every 5 Americans?

If you want to know what’s stopping me, it’s the lack of upwards mobility in the current climate. It takes either money or luck to make money these days and I have neither. And if I work my way up to a decent income, that will increase my burden to the point where I am actually worse off than I am now.
Trust me, I’ve been there, done the numbers (yes, you don’t have to be a CEO to know how to do math, even the fairly complex stuff, no matter what YOU think!) to see if it’s any different now, and guess what?
And do you know why that is? because the rich pay comparatively little. Much of our revenue comes from the middle class and from businesses. Oh, and that also leads to us having high enough corporate taxes that many businesses prefer to go overseas thus depriving the US of even more revenue (and jobs) but you are omniscient so you already knew that.

“What in bleeding Christ’s name gives us a right to take what he has? Having more shouldn’t require you to pay more.”
He paid less than 18% of his income as taxes while his staff averaged nearly 33%.
Not only do you not know math, you cannot read either.
Oh, and Mr Buffet agrees that it’s unfair. let me repeat that and I will type slowly so you can try to parse it.

Warren Buffet, one of the richest people on Earth, is complaining that the taxes on the wealthy are too low.

Now, he know business better than you and I put together (he must since he is richer too), yet he and I agree while you are off in left field.

@jerv Warren Buffet has the right to speak for himself, and so should everyone else.

@Anon_Jihad Yes, we all have that right. Or are you expecting him to come here to Fluther personally? I mean, he already has spoken and if quoting is insufficient then that meant that you cannot quote facts either which in turn means that your arguments are based on nothing but pure opinion; even any statistics you pull up are invalid for that reason.

I am also well within my rights to say that it makes no sense to me, and the only way it would is if our system was designed to take the tired, the poor, the huddled masses yearning to be free, and sacrifice them on Mammon, in which case I will say that thesystem is fundamentally fucked up.

I don’t see how anyone in their right mind could be against Universal Health Care and every time I see someone on CNN etc. opposing it I sit and laugh to myself at their foolishness.

Then again, I’m Canadian so I’m probably not the best person to speak on the subject.

@Anonymous523 Well, according to FOX news, your healthcare is all screwed up…ya’ll just haven’t caught on yet!

@Val123
According to Fox news, 4channers are all hackers on steroids who regularly blow up yellow vans and against which you can only defend yourself by buying curtains and a dog.
Canadian news on the other hand call them internet vigilantes.

I just call them teenagers with neglectful parents and too much time on their hands.

@ragingloli What KIND of dog??

@Val123 We apparently have death camps up here too.

@Anonymous523 This is true, but it’s only for Republicans. They will be refused all medical care.

Fact from fiction, truth from diction. It is not the word or ideal of socialism, or big insurance who would not want to share the pie but the “haves” do not want to end up paying for the “have-nots”. Too many people have been lead to believe that they not only will be paying through the nose to carry the uninsured that they will lose the great coverage they have. People are for everyone having access to medical health etc, so long as they get theirs 1st. It boils down to a form of selfishness. If one could imagine the roads operating like that it would be a nightmare. Those with money could drive wherever they pleased but those who had little or no money could only drive on certain roads or hardly any roads at all. But everyone can drive anywhere, people with money and those who don’t yet those with Lamborghinis and Bentleys are not denied the opportunity to drive because of it.

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m sorry but while that analogy sounded clever, it was horrible. Roads started off as paths through the wood and were slowly overtime built into what they were, a very slow but almost “natural” evolution. Even the railroads took many years of building tiny veins across small parts of the nation before branching out. This universal healthcare business is like trying to build superhighways connecting to everything of importance without any infrastructure government wise, and while butchering what is already there marketwise.
“Too many people have been lead to believe that they not only will be paying through the nose to carry the uninsured”
~Because they will be. When income tax for the average middle class is already over 30% to ask even a penny more is friggin’ absurd. We are in an economic crisis where a lot of people don’t have a lot, and you’d like to take more so they can watch trickle through bureaucracy?

“It boils down to a form of selfishness.”
~There is nothing wrong with looking out for yourself. In fact it should be encouraged for general survival and well being. If you argument is based on this flower child hippie nonsense of us all taking care of each other, you my friend are disillusioned. The world doesn’t run well without greed, few inventions were designed with the hopes of improving quality of life for all, no they were made by someone hoping to make some cash, there are some exceptions yes but few.

The world prospers when individuals grow and aren’t held back by the masses. Because when one has success they must do something with it, one cannot share success with others in success, they already have it.

I think that this is worth a look.

Fear that going to the hospital or doctor will be like going to the DMV where the workers are low quality and you can ask the same question three times and get three different answers. Fear of the hopelessness that comes with dealing with the governement.