Guns vs crime, or keeps guns from everyone?

There doesn’t seem to be any evidence that guns have a lot to do with crime – except that they make gun crime possible. IIRC, U.S. crime is similar to or lower than the rest of the world in all categories but violent crime.

Gun proliferation certainly doesn’t prevent violent crime, and seems to only encourage more suicide and accidental gun deaths. However, gun removal seems to only have an effect in places that don’t have socioeconomic problems that encourage gun crime to begin with. That’s probably mainly because guns are easy enough to get illegally from places that make them easy to get (think the Iron Pipeline from Virginia to New York City).

My guess is that, setting aside civil liberty questions about gun ownership, the best prescription probably needs to be well-considered and fitting to the circumstances. Texas and New Hampshire both have very liberal gun laws, but Texas has much higher crime. Going by this view, maybe Texas needs gun control and New Hampshire doesn’t?

I don’t think that guns or the lack of them deter crime and crimiinals…

They will use other methods and weapons , if necessary to rob ‘n steal whatever they feel that they want or need…..

However; i do think it should be legal to shoot anyone laying hands, or breakin in… on you without your consent…

@bolwerk, you’re onto something. It’s not just guns; it’s culture. Switzerland, for example, has compulsory gun ownership. All adult males are considered to be part of the national militia, are subject to conscription and ‘national service’, and (I believe) are required to keep their arms ready for the duration of their competent adulthood. (Of course, those are rifles, and not handguns.) But Switzerland doesn’t have the same levels of violent crime that the US has.

Maybe it’s the 7–11 stores.

I don’t know how many here will recall the case of a couple of middle-aged German tourists who had flown to Florida for a vacation some years ago and rented a car. They were held up at gunpoint later that same day, carjacked, and at least one of them was murdered. The investigation made public the fact that rental cars have (or had) an identifying symbol or series of letters in the registration. So anyone driving behind a rental car who knew the code could look at the license plate and know at a glance that it was a rental.

Since Florida had a concealed-carry law that let law-abiding and qualified citizens carry weapons on their person by permit, a criminal would be less likely to take on a victim whose weapons status he didn’t know. But everyone knows that if you fly domestic airlines into or around the US, you aren’t carrying a weapon. If you find a rental car leaving an airport, it’s a pretty good tipoff that this is an unarmed visitor. (And in addition, he may not be familiar with traffic, “bad parts of town” and a lot of other things—as well as tired from the flight.)

It turns out that a lot of criminals were doing just what you’d expect predators to do: they were lying in wait outside of airports, and then stalking and robbing people driving rental cars away from the airport. Easy pickings.

It took a murder case and an international incident to bring it to light.

No amount of laws, buyback programs, or confiscation schemes will ever disarm all the thugs and criminals and only leave the law abiding citizen unable to defend themselves.

Look at the UK. They have some of the strictest gun (hell, any kind of weapon laws) and crime is going crazy over there. Thugs get guns and knives off the street and get away with it on a regular basis and Joe Schmo Cheerio gets raided by the bomb squad for having a .22 shell.

I consider myself a forward thinking, progressive individual, but unlike many who call themselves that, I am vehemently againts any form of gun control that criminalizes the law abiding while allowing the lawless to continue to operate. I think instead of having an authoritarian, nanny-state ban it all mentality, we should be examining the socioeconomic factors behind gun crime, something many of my fellow liberals like to, oddly enough, conveniently overlook.

*applies flame suit

I carry a gun almost every time I leave the house and no one knows it. Nor have I ever shown it to anyone. Unless you know me you have no idea I’m armed. My point is that a lot of people are carrying guns legally in the US and it is not the wild west. Ask any cop and they will tell you that criminals are not scared of pistols. Shotguns are a different story. Carrying a weapon only makes the odds even.

I pity the fool that tries to jack me.
This house protected by Smith & Wesson.

It comes down to educating yourself. Lots of good stuff being said here.

@CyanoticWasp: in all fairness, leaving an airport or rail station is often somewhat risky no matter where you go. It’s often hard to throw a stone and miss a random disoriented visitor. Also, it’s more than just guns and it’s more than just culture. There’s also incentive involved, although that’s a complicated issue itself. (A brief example: you’re poor and in the hood. You don’t have a job. Illicit drug sales at least offer you the opportunity to make a sub-minimum wage job. You may need a gun to defend yourself.) A place like Florida with lax rules, poorly trained law enforcement, and widepsread poverty must look especially alluring for would-be “criminals.”

The U.S. Second Amendment actually was probably similar in intent to the Swiss militia. There was never any plan for the U.S. to have a permanent standing army, least of all in peacetime, so insisting citizens be ready may have been the best prescription for raising a standing army quickly and safely. Of course, I don’t hear any politicians calling for disbanding the army these days….

@ChazMaz GA for using the phrase ‘I pity the fool’!

@Mandomike – I see they removed your answer here too. :-)

@CyanoticWasp Getting everyone here to be as mature and responsible with guns as the Swiss could take a couple of decades at best. In the mean time if you had the chance to pack some heat you could be as Fiddle PCD said, more able to defend yourself when some butt nugget tried to play you? I don’t know if it is the guns or the guns make it easier for some lames to go commit crimes. Those who are hell bent on doing dirt will find away to get armed and taking away the legal guns might let the crooks know they can home invade some residence with very little chance of getting fired on.

I own a gun but it’s useless unless I beat a crook over the head with it. I don’t keep the bullets anywhere near it because of the children. Guns do NOT deter criminals. If they did, our prison populations wouldn’t be exploding. When’s the last time a member of the NRA went on a killing spree?

It infuriates me that my government is even CONSIDERING fucking with the second amendment. But what sucks worst of all is that, unless and until they physically remove the guns from our hands, Americans do not realize that signing that piece of paper into law is the exact same thing. But by that time, it is too late. Now, we’ve got a fight on our hands that ought not have happened in the first place. So, what happens…..they just confiscate all the bullets and render the guns useless?

The criminals don’t care. They’re seasoned veterans at law-breaking! It’s just another day at the office for them. I don’t want to own a gun, but I HAVE to. Who is looking after MY interests – Uncle Sam? Yeah…....we see how well that’s going.

@Hypocrisy_Central – You got that right.

Take away the gun. Then take away the crowbars. Then take away the frying pans. Take away your shoes. Then take away your rights.

“Getting everyone here to be as mature and responsible with guns as the Swiss could take a couple of decades at best.”
I do not know if you will ever get everyone totally “Mature and Responsible”. The Swiss are the minority. And, neutrality does have its advantages.

But, the majority of us that have guns in this country are fully aware of the responsibility having one requires.

Ya’ know , if we take away the GUNS… would people feel better if the criminals killed us with a baseball bat ? Stabbed us with knives ? Hit us over the head with a hammer ?

IF someone wants you DEAD; there are Many, Many was to KILL a person… not just guns.

@phillis Great Answer ! Direct and to the point !

@phillis – You are right on. And it will never change.

“Who is looking after MY interests”
You are. That has never changed.

The 2nd amendment WILL be repealed. Just you watch. They’re gearing up to teach and then deputize citizens to ramp up security when that happens, among other things we’re going to be forced to choke down because they won’t have enough military and local police to handle it

“The 2nd amendment WILL be repealed. Just you watch.”
You will have a revolution.

“They’re gearing up to teach and then deputize citizens”
We already are. It is called a militia.

Freedom is not a permission granted by any authority. Freedom is a fact.

It’s a whole new thing coming, @ChazMaz. The objective will be carried out by a more militant mindset, created to quell said revolution

I see you have not been hanging out with my friends. You have no idea. :-)

Join the NRA.

That was easily worth a GA. I’ve been feeling like I’m all alone with this for a long time now. Maybe you’re right.

@ChazMaz & @phillis, I share some of your concerns, but I think you’re being a bit melodramatic about how “they’re coming for my guns”.

Understand, I completely agree that ‘the powers that be’ don’t want you to have guns. I agree with you 100% on that point. But no one is so foolish as to imagine that they could order a confiscation of all privately owned weapons and have it be in any way successful.

Imagine the problems that our Army is having with the relatively underfunded, dispersed and underground insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan. And that’s against a ‘foreign’ insurgency. Do you imagine for a minute that our own sons and daughters will launch the kinds of raids that would be necessary to quell the insurgency in this country that would arise from a confiscation attempt? It’ll never happen. If you’re on the lookout against black helicopters and mass confiscation (I’m not mocking your concerns here) you’ll miss the stuff that happens in courtrooms and legislatures all across the country every day.

That is, the death of 1000 cuts. The courtroom lawsuits that assign liability to a gun manufacturer because of a carjacking by a hood with a stolen weapon, for example. The city councils that pass ordinances against handgun ownership within city limits, for another.

I’ve never fired a handgun, and never had much more than a passing interest in trying it someday. I live in a fairly safe neighborhood. My neighbors are generally sober, friendly and seem to get along with each other and with me. No gang activity. I’m thinking about getting a handgun and permit just to exercise the right to do that. Really, the only thing holding me back from that is knowing that once I own it I do have a responsibility to learn all about it, inside and out, make sure that I’m trained in its safe—and effective!—use, acquire and use the things I need to keep it secure and well-maintained. All that.

Maybe I’ll do that sooner, rather than later. After all, it can be my civic responsibility, since I gave up voting so long ago…

Thanks for your thoughts, blue bug. I didn’t mean to be melodramatic. In fact, I believe what will happen is that the 2nd amendment will be repealed. That’s on paper. It’ll outrage the more astute, but little else. News conglomerates will do limited reporting, downplaying it the whole time. They probably WON’T rip the guns out of people’s hands. Like I said, they’ll probably pull bullets off the shelves. This won’t touch the private stockpiles yet. I assume they’ll do the same thing they do with masive amounts of overdue parking tickets. Instead of a cut rate deal, just turn them into us quietly and you won’t suffer any federal penalties.

@CyanoticWasp – “But no one is so foolish as to imagine that they could order a confiscation of all privately owned weapons and have it be in any way successful.”

Totally agree. That was the point I was trying to make. Well done!

A person “Armed” is a citizen…
An “Un-Armed” citizen is a subjuct…

The race to repeal the 2nd Amendment is well under way and has been for some time. I know this is going to start a whole new argument but the Health Care Reform Bill is part of that. Once the Government controls the health care system they can legislate that guns hurt people and therefor should be regulated to bring down health costs. I know some people will think that is a “conspiracy theory” or way too wacky to be true, but watch. Our President has said many times that he wants a single payer, government run health care system like Europe. This bill is the first step. A lot of our freedoms will go in time with more government regulation. The 2nd Amendment will be soon to follow.

Flame away but that is how I feel.

“Flame away but that is how I feel.”

IT IS how you feel. I am glad you did. :-)

@CyanoticWasp @phillis Basically we end up stuck on step one or continually coming back to it; why are so many Americans shooting other Americans? I can see how perception is formed that influences how government and the people view guns. Some wackado shoots his young kids, his wife, her mother, then the neighbor whose barking dog always woke him on his day off and the media has a field day with it. Then some politician milks it to the hilt to help him/her get elected they all run on a get tough on crime platform, and that usually equals guns wants to pass this law and that sweeping in assault rifle bans or pistols that hold more than X amount of bullets or larger than X caliber. If they treated alcohol and vehicles as they do guns everyone would almost be riding horses and you could not get a glass of wine with your steak. The core problem is why certain people seem to get by (in large) without wanting to pop a cap in their fellow citizen and if they think it, they don’t actually do it like the Swiss, Japanese, and Tibetans, etc?

@Hypocrisy_Central I agree with you. I believe the core problem is education. I stated in another thread that I grew up with guns and have a great respect for what they do. Most of todays kids never touch a gun that isn’t connected to an xbox. They have never hunted or been taught how to handle a firearm. I could be wrong but I think that the Swiss teach their citizens how to handle a gun and possibly issue each male a long gun. That in my mind is why they have a lower gun crime rate.

Glad to see there are so many pro-gun people here :-)

Also, I’d like to add, that if guns cause crime, all 7 of mine must be defective. Who knew?

@Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard , Good point!

Holy shit! A comment from Mandomike that wasn’t modded! I’m shocked.

HC, no amount of education can erase stupid. THe PC Cafe has several barristers serving the masses, and the masses are listening. How do you surgically remove the skull cap and pour in common sense? This IS what’s happening. If you (not specifically you, HC. People in general) want to cry Conspiracy Theory! then find the nearest bell tower….and jump.

This is so much worse than you think. It is WAY later than people realize. So pardon me for being an alarmist. But it IS alarming. It IS melodramatic, because that is the appropriate response that matches the events that are unfolding.

What I WISH I could do is take appropriate action. That needed to be doen RIGHT NOW. But I’m already dancing with the US government on an equally despicable, unrelated event. Because my family is at risk, there is precious little I can do until our situation is at a close. This situation is turning into something very unAmerican and very dark.

@phillis I think that is part of the reason why some would want to take all guns away IS because we (as a society) cannot instill common sense and wisdom into everyone. And they are scared they would miss that one whack job that will shoots up his kids, wife, etc or maybe a campus after having purchased his gun legally. Their solution is to err on the side of taking all the guns thus no whackado can wipe out his family. That is ridiculous because where it may stop a nut it won’t stop a person commited to getting their hands on one. Somone would just bring up a bun of more dangerous weapons with the next load of cocain. I don’t see it as melodromatic. Those who do not care to be at the mercy of thugs and nutts I don’t see giving up their guns without a big fight.

I discussed that in some other thread on here, too. Don’t remember which, but I said that most AMericans do NOT understand that a president signing paper work DOES directly affect them. They don’t “get it” until they are physically affected by it – such as having to turn in their guns (not likely) or no onger being able to buy bullets (highly probable later on). It’s the same thing with healthcare reform. It sounds GREAT because that’s the spin they put on it. But 1 out of every 9 women getting breast cancer makes no difference whatsoever. They WILL NOT pay for preventative care and screenings. How many people are going to DIE because they cannot afford to pay out of pocket to catch diseases before it’s too late?—

After thought, if at least 4 people at Tuscan AZ had been packing how quick would the gun man been stopped or distracted enough trying to save his own hide from taking one to the chest or head? How many more deaths would have been prevented? Surely I don’t think if anyone in that cround had the means to respond they would have just sat on their thumbs and did nothing.

Yeah! Let’s have MORE guns. That’s the answer to reducing gun violence. Why, let’s even arm our congressional reps.”