How would you have reacted? (read details)
this happened last summer. we were camping on a river, way way out in the middle of nowhere, 35 miles in on an unmade road. there are campsites, the area is frequented by fishermen and hunters. we were through for the day and I was sitting on a low stump in the fading sunlight watching the river. I noticed, walking along the beach, was a woman and two large bull mastiff dogs. they were quite far away. Very quickly, one of the dogs bounded up to me and started sniffing my face. I froze, I have never seen a dog this big in real life. The other dog was sniffing around in the bushes at the campsite. They both were wearing electronic collars, the woman was screaming for them to come. She walked up and told me she was trying to train them with the collars but, with a little laugh, told me it wasn’t working very well. (she was holding a remote looking thing) No sooner has she said that, my husband, who had been inside our camp vehicle stowing his fishing gear, opened up the side door to come out. The dog that had been sniffing the bushes,growling, tried to leap into the vehicle. My husband shot the dog dead. The woman was now hysterical, my husband told her to get her other dog out of there or he would shoot it too. A big scene ensued, state troopers came, blah blah. No charges were leveled but these people are sueing us in civil court. what could we have done differently? It all happened so fast…
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your husband did the wrong thing.
I kind of feel that you have left out one or two details which would have made sense of this. after all, you didn’t say that you screamed for help and the people who had the dogs could have called the dogs away.
I haven’t phased this in terms of how I would have reacted as I don’t have a gun.
You mean like, not shoot the dog? Killing that animal was completely unaccptable and He should be heavily fined (I would prefer jailing him) for not only killing the dog in cold blood, but threatening the woman with killing the other one as well.
Did your husband just happen to have a gun in his hand or did he have to go get one?
I suspect that the owner of the dogs will not have much of an argument in her favor. Her dogs were not controlled and the breed has a reputation for aggression.
Do I think your husband should have done something differently? I don’t know, I wasn’t there, but his action seems extreme. (And does he carry a gun in his hand, that he had it avaialble to shoot a dog that was trying to leap into the vehicle?)
Unless you can prove that you or your husband were in danger (or perceived danger), then they will probably rule in favor of the dog owner. To shoot the dog seems a bit extreme, but I wasn’t there, so I don’t know what exactly happened.
Maybe it was extreme for him to kill the dog he should have shot up in the air and told the owner to control her dog, Some dog owners need to be given the scare of their lives to understand that not everyone thinks their killing machines are cute “BUT” unless the dog was attacking, it shouldn’t have been necessary for it to be shot.
I have been in situations in which stranger dogs have come up to me and started to chew and pull on my clothes or shoes and the owner thought it was just the cutest thing !! I got to the point where I became concerned for my safety and annoyed at the owner’s irresponsibility to the point where, I told the owner call your F* g dog or I will stab it,she was offended and informed me that he was just playing and he would not hurt a fly.Something hard to believe when the dog possessed jaws that looked like they could bite through solid steel.
It doesn’t sound like either of you were in danger.
You deserve to be sued.
Sorry.
Edit: And your husband sounds like an asshole. Sorry again.
:( I don’t understand why he instantly shot the dog. Did it just growl at him? If he was scared, he should have just gone back into the trailer.
No one but my relatives from Texas would ever carry a gun on them, and they know how and when to use it properly and would never shoot someones dog unless it were truly attacking them.
I’m sorry, but I hope they sue the hell out of you.
Has your husband ever had a bad experience in his past with a dog? Has the dog ever bitten anyone before as this would be a huge defense for your husband’s actions? Did the dog growl at your husband? Did your husband see that the dog had a collar? Was your husband drinking at the time? Were there small children around that would cause your husband a concern for their safety? What kind of dog are we talking about here? Pit, German Shephard, etc…How big was the dog? These are important facts to know in order to answer your question.
Being a great dog lover and having lost my friend Spunky, my avatar, a couple of months ago, would do everything possible to avoid hurting any animals. Having said this, do not know your husband’s state of mind, to properly answer what i would have done under these circumstances!
If this state has a leash law and the dogs were not on leashes, you will win in court. no one was arrested, at the time of the incident, because the officers knew this. hire an attorney.
First of all it’s quite common in the US for people in remote areas to carry handguns on their person.
Secondly; did the dog attack in any way, or act like it was about to attack? If not, I think the shooting is unjustified and the woman deserves compensation. There may be legal issues here regarding unlawful discharge of a firearm, depending on where this occurred.
Did your husband shoot your “shift” and “enter” keys too.
I agree with some of the other posters that there seems to be missing information here. Where does your husband keep the weapon? What kind of weapon was it? (Is it permitted?)
However, based on the information that you did include, that the dogs were unrestrained, that the woman was ineffectively attempting to train them and laughed off her failure, that the dogs were already unacceptably aggressive: an unknown bull mastiff running up to lick your face while its partner “sort of growls” in the background is a dangerous situation in the first place. (If your husband had gone to the vehicle specifically to retrieve a weapon, then some of the details are clearer.)
I don’t think, based on what I’ve seen, that he acted in any way inappropriately. I’m astonished that so many responders automatically assume the opposite. You have a clear right of self-defense, and you’re not required to have shed blood before you may assert it.
Edit: But even with that said, I’d try to reach an out-of-court settlement with her, given the vagaries of the court system.
Also please remind me to put a leash on my kids when I am around your husband.
I’d be surprised if they have a lot to go on. She had the dogs unleashed and clearly she was not in full control of large dogs that can be aggressive. In my interactions with dogs and dog trainers I have always heard that the training of dogs like that, (Pit bulls, Doberman, Rottweiler, German Shepard etc.) is entirely dependent on the owner, if they are not trained in handling those types of breeds, that is when things go awry. Another thing to consider is that it was a large dog leaping at someone who may not have had many interactions with dogs in general. It was a large animal unleashed in an area where people hunt regularly. I do think the decision to shoot at the dog was rash, but people react to things differently.
Frankly if I was the woman and yelling at my dogs to ‘come’ was not working, I would have grabbed both of them myself. And if I was having difficulty training them I would not think it would be a good idea to let them off their leashes in an area like that.
A person has a right to his personal space from harm or suspected harm. these dogs, in themselves, are x large and a direct threat, especially if one is growling. if the dogs had been on leashes, this incident would never have happened. a person has a right to defend themselves, if the the threat is imminent.
Apparently your husband was not “through” hunting for the day. I do have some good news though…I have not received a summons for jury duty. See ya…..Gary/wtf
And no, from what is written, I do not see any signs of aggression on the part of the dogs.
Anyone who says that your husband was not justified is incapable of logical thought processes.
Footnote to my previous comment: Her question was, how would you react! Think we would need more information to answer her question fairly! Again, would do everything humanly possible before resorting to violence toward any domesticated animal. Also, have learned over the years, there are two sides to every story.
Looking forward too more information.
@beancrisp
What would that “logic” be? If it is on my lawn, I can shoot it? If I was a barbarian, I would probably accept that “logic” too.
The dog owner did NOT have control of her dog.She is in the wrong.
I walked past a homeless person about an hour ago. I was kinda scared. I’m not a wingnut so I didn’t have a gun on me.
My gun is used for killing food.
You do not sy that the dog that was leaping into the vehicle was “Growling”, “Barking”, or “Baring it’s fangs etc in a meanacing manner… Just that it was “leapng” into the car/ vehicle.
I , personally fail to see how you or your husband were in an immediate threat from harm as there were NO signs of DANGER….
I personally am armed 24/7 and I hav ebeen fully trained in the use of firearms… Has your husband been TRAINED about the use of firearms and how often does he have firearms on him .
I be;ieve that NO ONE should carry firearms if they have not had proper trainnning .
In this case , it appears that the dogs were off leashed , so you will have that going in yourr favor . BUT; I believe that your husband fired the gun just for the sake of shooting a defenseless dog and that he deswerves CRIMINAL charges to be filed and do Jail time .
I would imagine that they WILL win and you’ll have to make some kind of restitution to the dog owners.
@lucillelucillelucille
Lots of parents don’t have control over their children either. Can I shoot them too? After all they might bite me.
Having read most of the comments, it would be very interesting to know this dog’s past. Has the dog ever bitten anyone before? Secondly, is there a leash law in this area?
Those facts will be huge in this case!
@Cotton101 You’re right. Many of us didn’t answer the question so I will do so now.
In no way, shape or form does a dog sniffing my face or trying to jump in my vehicle or even growling at me give me justification in pulling out my gun and killing him.
You never mentioned this animal attacking either of you.
You both could have gotten your asses in that camper until they left.
Sadly, because the dog’s were not on leashes it is a possibility that you will win the case. Do I think you should? No.
Your husband is a dick in my opinion. Resorting to violence over an animal trying to jump in your vehicle = dickhead = big fat dickhead.
@Cotton101: it doesn’t really matter if the dog had bitten anyone. it matters more that whether the husband knew the dog’s history.
based on the story above, the moment of danger (if any) had passed. the husband shot the dog as he or she attempted to jump in his car. again, for emphasis: the moment of danger (if any) had passed.
@john65pennington I am not sure that an entire state can have a leash law. Where I live, leash laws are in effect for cities that have voted such a law into place. If you live out in the country, or out of city limits there is no leash laws.
@Ria777 oh yes it does in a court of law…have been a part of several trials on dog bite cases! the owner has responsibilities here…if they dog had biten someone in the past, that would be huge!
Husband would not have a clue about the dog’s history at the time of the incident!
@Cotton101: very different situation than a dog bite case. this has to do with what the husband did more than the dog. (note the more. it partly has to do with what the dog did, too.)
referring to their court case…did you read that part? there is a civil suit and if the dog had bitten someone in the past, would be a big part of the case. was not commenting on what i would have done under the same circumstances!
It sounds like he had the gun out because he saw the dogs were potentially threatening to his wife and was getting prepared just in case. The husband may not have known the moment of danger for her had passed. He opened his door and a bull mastiff, which is a huge dog, is leaping toward him. He made an instantaneous decision based on what he felt/believed at that moment, not knowing that dog. I think labeling him an asshole without having been there is unfair.
@Supacase Good point and GA.
I still think he’s an asshole
Holy cow… the story seemed normal until the dog got shot dead for trying to get into a vehicle… !
What a lack of impulse control. Someone thought this person was stable enough to own a gun? This is why humans have a thing called reason. We don’t have to react on every impulse or fear we have. It’s a dog. He could have closed the door so the dog couldn’t get to him.
I pay no credence to the idea of violent breeds. Dogs have been bred as companions and helpmates.
I wonder how this will play out. How horrible for that woman. I would be traumatized forever if anything like that ever happened to me. She deserves some justice.
Oh dear god this just horrifies me. I thank god that I live in a country that does not allow people to wander about willy nilly with guns. Your husband was entirely wrong to shoot the dog. Having been “owned” by many dogs over the years, I truly believe there is no such thing as a bad dog, only bad owners. Also there is no guarantee that the dog was intending to attack, what if it was a big daft thing that wanted a pet? and not all mastiffs are vicious killer dogs like in the press. I had a neighbour who had one years ago, and my uncle had one too they were both silly big things with the absolute sweetest natures. My uncle’s one used to groom my auntie’s cat, he’d sit for ages just washing her, it was adorable. They used to curl up together to sleep too.
I shouldn’t have read this its really upset me. I’ve always judged people by how they treat animals, to be so callous towards a dog in an instant like that, well I apologise for any offence but it says more about your husband’s nature than it does about the dog or the owner. If anyone ever did that to one of my fur babies I couldn’t cope, id rather i was shot than them, its horrible, just horrible. sor ry
If ANYONE ever shot my dog… I am afraid I would pull my weapon and shoot them in return as I am armed 24/7….
from a dog lover’s point of view, agree with most of the statements here! putting myself in the lady’s shoes that lost her dog, the cops would have probably put me in jail to cool off….would have gone after the guy! to lose my Spunky in that fashion, well, it would not be good for me to write my REAL feelings on this page…would get in trouble with Fluther!
When I read that the dog wanted to jump in the vehicle, I assumed it was wanting to go for a ride. I’m really not trying to be funny here. That is the response that MOST dogs have to any open car door. This is usually an enjoyable activity for them.
If the dog were truly in attack mode it would have gone for you since you were far more accessible.
How would I have reacted? I certainly wouldn’t have shot the dog dead. Your husband over-reacted. Shooting a dog or a person dead is an irretrievable act. There were many many other things he could have done to mitigate the situation.
Was the owner of the dogs being a jerk. Yes. But why should her niavete cost the poor dog his life. Being shot is a painful way to die.
The entire incident is unfortunate with clueless people on both sides of the issue. The woman who owned the dogs should have had more sense. But so should your husband. There was no need to execute the dog because it had a stupid owner.
@trailsillustrated What do you think of the situation? Do you think your husband was unreasonable or over-reacted or was he justified in his actions?
Had I been your husband and shot what I thought was a threat only to find it was a pet, I would have dropped the gun and burst into tears begging for forgiveness and trying to explain that the gun happened to be in my hand, that I caught a glimpse of what appeared to be a wild animal, possibly a bear, lunging towards me and in that split second, I shot at it because I feared for my life. I would not exit the camper with gun still in hand and threaten to shoot her other dog as if shooting pets is something normal and acceptable to me. I once had a little poodle that had the meanest looking growl…...your husband would have probably shot him just for the sport of it. Your husband is an asshole and I hope his actions cost you plenty…..with any luck, enough to prevent many, many potential future hunting trips. Buy the bastard a video game for Christmas….the action seems so real nowadays, perhaps it will satisfy his aggressions. See ya…..wtf
@ragingloli -Children….Aggressive dog…yes,I see your point….exactly the same thing…hmmm animals have the same rights as humans?I think not.
to clarify: when he opened the door and went to step down out of the high vehicle, the dog growled, snarled, and leapt up toward him, he shot, they both fell into the vehicle
@whatthefluther So true. The fact that he came out came out threatening to shoot the other dog, after just shooting her one dog would be horrifying…and so barbaric. How did he have no remorse whatsoever?! I’m just in shock. I can’t imagine even accidentally killing an animal :(
I’d just get back into the vehicle. That was just unnecessary.
he was incredibly shook up and freaked out about the whole thing so was I. I don’t even talk to him about it but I think he’s remorseful. He doesn’t think he did anything wrong though. i don’t know what to think
Okay, into the breach…
Your husband saw a growling dog trying to come into his vehicle, which can be perceived as an attack. A big, scary, growling dog. He may have seen you uncomfortably close to another dog. He shot the bsgd.
I am not saying he did the right thing, but what he did is completely defensible.
There was an incident in San Francisco recently where an out of control dog in a hallway of an apartment building ate a woman who lived there.
I have owned several dogs, and I loved them, but I know my responsablities, and the need for control over my pets.
You will win the case, but use a lawyer.
The dog was growling and lunged at the guy!! Heck, should he have waited to be mauled to death, then hoped he could get away long enough to get his gun?
Edit after reading posts: the way I read her story, the dog began growling when the husband opened the car door then ran towards him. I would sure feel in imminent danger!
@Judi From what we’ve read, the dog didn’t lunge at him. It says he tried to jump in the vehicle. I don’t think that deserves a bullet to the brain.
Yeah, I always keep a gun in my hand after stowing fishing gear…..doesn’t everyone?
No luck at fishing, huh? Decided to try his hand at hunting, I guess.
@Vunessuh Trails wrote: when he opened the door and went to step down out of the high vehicle, the dog growled, snarled, and leapt up toward him
I guess you missed that
he said to the troopers: he could see the dog very near me but could not see the other one because of the position of the vehicle. He did not know the location of the other dog until he opened the door. He stated that the dog lunged at him. I could not see it because of my position, but I heard the dog growling and it sounded aggressive to me.
LOL at all of the answers regarding “the poor dog / the big brute”. (Except you, @HighShaman, I’m seriously wondering whether you’re just drunk today. Your bloviations are just… out there.)
If a dangerous dog jumps at you (and a bull mastiff is a very dangerous dog even if it is controlled) then you are perfectly justified in using deadly force against it. The police investigated here and found no basis for a criminal complaint, so that whole line of so-called reasoning is moot. The woman was incompetently attempting to train two dogs and lost control of both of them. She’s screaming at them to no effect; the dogs are ignoring her. One dog is in the face of the man’s seated wife, and apparently no immediate threat—second dog jumps, growling, from the weeds trying to get into the truck that the man is exiting. No question but the man was justified in using deadly force.
And yes, I’m not surprised that he’s suffering for this now. It certainly must have been a traumatic event for him to have shot a domesticated animal. The dog owner was the one who had choices, and made bad ones all down the line.
I’m a dog owner, too, and I love my little dorg. One of the fears that I always have when she meets someone new, such as visitors to my home, is that I have her under absolute control (on the leash, in a closed room, etc.) until she is normalized to the new situation—and calm. And she’s no bull mastiff; a bull mastiff could eat her as a snack. She’s more likely to hurt someone by wagging her tail too excitedly.
The owner has complete responsibility for the dog’s actions. This dog was out of control. I think your husband should counter-sue for the emotional distress that he clearly feels.
@bunnygrl I agree completely; unfortunately the ‘bad owners’ create dangerous dogs. Innocent, pehaps, but still dangerous.
@filmfann I did miss that because that’s not what it says.
“The dog that had been sniffing the bushes,growling, tried to leap into the vehicle.”
LOL at out of control. She never elaborated that the dog was out of control and has yet to do so. Just that he tried to jump inside the vehicle.
@Vunessuh Oh, for fuck’s sake, I copy and pasted it!
Count up 14 posts.
@filmfann Oh for fuck’s sake, she should have written that in the description when asking the question. Sounds all wishy washy to me, like she really doesn’t know what the hell happened. And neither do we. I guess none of it fucking matters now does it because we weren’t there.
@Vunessuh ; As soon as He opened side door, dog growled, dog tried to jump in. Sounds like a “lunge at me move to me!
@Judi Nope. There’s a big difference. She would have worded it differently.
But then, she says he growled and lunged at her husband 6329562 years later so of course that changes things. It sounds wishy washy. I really don’t think she knows what happened. There are pieces missing. Perhaps trying to protect her husband. Who knows.
Judging by her sentence and paragraph structure, maybe she is just not very good at written communications.
Then the story changed from the description to the comments, because I initially read the dog tried to get into the car.
Perhaps. Then it makes us hard to clearly understand what happened.
@casheroo That’s what I’m sayin’ too.
I am not writing an essay for publication here. I was on the other side of the vehicle I heard but did not see it. This is what he told the state troopers.
None of what she says contradicts anything else. It may have been badly said, but it fits together.
@trailsillustrated That’s all fine and dandy, but if you’re going to open your story up for public consumption, make it clear and don’t change your story.
@Buttonstc Sowy.
@trailsillustrated ; Are we correct that he lunged towards your husband, growling, when he tried to get in the car or was he being a big goofy dog wanting to go for a ride?
She doesn’t know. She was on the other side of the vehicle.
@trailsillustrated You’re probably going to win the case because the dogs weren’t on leashes. Good for you. Moving on.
I’m sure she and her husbandhave discussed it.
@Judi sorry if it’s disjointed- I was very nervous about the one dog being so near me, and in my mind sort of just wondering what I should do, I heard the door slide open, I heard the dog growling, snarling, I heard the shot and the rest, and yes we talked about it for like 14 hours all the way home, it all happened very quickly and was very freaky.
Regardless of the exact sequence and minutiae of everything, none of us were there. We are all just going on our impressions based upon the info given.
I still think that your husband had other non-lethal choices, including closing the vehicle door. Or kneeing the dog in the chest to back him off in order to close the door. Or yelling firmly at the dog. Or numerous other options. He chose to use deadly force. I don’t think that was necessary. As a last resort maybe but not the first choice.
I also think the owner was stupid and naive. But I think that the death penalty was a pretty severe punishment and threatening her with the death of her second pet was pretty over the top. I really think she got the point after the execution of the first, don’t you?
The entire thing is just such a shame. Untrained dog owner and untrained gun owner. Bad combination.
@Buttonstc He could have offered the dog a piece of bacon! Or a bellyrub! Dogs love bellyrubs!
How long should you wait to see if the dog is gonna bite your face off?
@filmfann Again, we don’t know what happened. The fact that she is seeking advice, wanting to know what we would have done or someone to tell her what she wants to hear really isn’t going to get her ANYWHERE in this situation.
Good luck to you @trailsillustrated anyhow.
@FF
He had other choices than waiting for his face to be ripped off including sealing himself inside the vehicle.
If this happened out on a wilderness trail or something that may be a different story.
And he could have shot up in the air. You don’t think that would have scared the s… out of the dog?
I’m just saying that killing the dog did not have to be the first option.
I also think that threatening the owner with the same for the other dog was way over the top and says a lot.
Properly trained gun owners use their weapon as the LAST resort, NOT the first.
Thankyou everyone for your insight. now Im gonna go try not to cry about it
I don’t think any of us have any way to determine “what she wants to hear”
That would require mind reading skills which I don’t possess.
I’m going under the assumption that, as she stated, she wants to know how each of us would react.
Anything else regarding what she wants or doesn’t want is pure speculation.
Strictly on the basis of what you have stated here, I think your husband had little choice. I do wonder whether he already had the gun or had to reach for it. Your husband didn’t know this animal and was under attack, according to your story. When a person is under attack, they are presumed to have the right to protect themselves from harm. I think this woman has a lot to answer for – she endangered her own animals by letting them run around unchecked, and without appropriate training on how to behave around humans.
@trails
Having a good cry may be the best thing you can do for yourself at this point.
The entire thing is incredibly sad for ALL concerned. And the sad truth also is that whatever happens in court can never undo that.
Don’t take whatever I said personally. You and your husband are two distinct entities. His actions don’t reflect upon you. ( except, unfortunately, in court)
i wonder if he could have just closed the door.
Having seen a full grown bull mastiff up close (friend’s), I know how absolutely huge they are and if one was growling and lunged towards me as I opened the door to exit my van or truck then I might have done the same as your husband. It’s horribly sad but this is what happens when people don’t leash their animals. Any breed of medium sized on up dog moving aggressively towards me, I’d shoot to kill- I’ve been attacked by dogs several times and know the damage they can do even when owners say they’ve never been aggressive before. Why chance it? Just use the damned leads and leashes unless on your own private property.
Nearly every National Forest and Park has very strict leash laws. What the dog owner did was wrong.
@trailsillustrated Hey, you were not at fault here! Hopefully, things will work out! Everyone made these comments without the whole story. Take care!
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