What if you erase the memory of a killer?

Wasn’t there a movie like that? It isn’t possible – yet. GQ!

He would never have to face the consequences of murder. You are in favor of a 16-year-old boy being punished for sneaking a peek at pornography, but then you immediately suggest a way that a killer could get off scot free. How very coherent.

@pdworkin – It is a complex world we live in.

What “consequences of murder.”
After having his memory removed, from his perspective he never did it.

“You are in favor of a 16-year-old boy being punished for sneaking a peek at pornography”

And, I never said that. But, that is another post. :-)

@pdworkin But then, what is the purpose of punishment? Is it to elicit a change in behavior? If so, then if we know we can easily elicit the same behavior change without punishment, doesn’t that make punishment cruel and unusual? What if the individual wants to keep their memories and they have to all be removed. Is it punishment then? Does it cease to be punishment since they can’t remember it? Otherwise, is punishment’s real intent to somehow make the victims feel avenged? Are they entitled to that if it is costly and unproductive to society?

@ChazMaz Have you been watching Dollhouse? Seriously, I think he can’t be punished if he no longer exists. And since we are our thoughts, erasing his thoughts and replacing them with others makes him a different person. I guess I would be on the side of not putting him in jail. But if the only memory lost was the actual act of him killing someone, and what has made him the killer he is is still intact in his personality then I would be in favor of punishing him.

I think that, in some cases at least, removing memories might not be enough to stop someone from killing. I expect that there is more wrong with the wiring than with the content in the case of sociopaths.

@Snarp Eventually every human being dies, and loses his or her entire memory. By your reasoning no one should ever have to suffer any consequences for any behavior, no matter how vile.

@JLeslie – Yes I have watched it. It does not keep my attention. I need to watch it without commercials. :-)

But yes, I see what you are saying. The goal would be to remove not only the memory of the crime but “what has made him the killer he is is” or was.

Removing memories wouldn’t change the fact that this is someone who doesn’t know how to deal with certain situations or impulses without resorting to violence. Presented with similar circumstances again, what would prevent them from acting the same way? They wouldn’t even have the benefit of knowing that it didn’t turn out well the last time.

@Snarp – Yes, genetic flaws would have to be looked into also.

@pdworkin I guess that depends on your definition of consequences.

I agree with @Harp

@Snarp you might be interested in this thread http://www.fluther.com/disc/56922/do-you-think-jailprison-is-for-punishment-or-rehabilitation/ regarding prison for punishment or rehab.

I mean if you replace all of this person’s memories maybe there’s some hope for rehabilitation? And if it worked, I’d be all for it. Why seek vengeance.

“this is someone who doesn’t know how to deal with certain situations or impulses without resorting to violence.”

Excluding deformation. It is a environment action of learning. Erase the memory of the abuse when in foster care. For example. Now the desire to kill their foster parent is gone. Actually they would not even know they existed.

The thing is, if you erase all of his memories isn’t that basically the same as a death sentence?

@JLeslie Yes, except without the satisfaction of revenge for the victim’s family

lol, nice @ChazMaz!

see how some people just want retribution out of spite?
this is a learned behavior. it’s not “natural” or “moral” or “best.” it’s just the way people have been taught to be.

people have come to expect to spite.

@ninjacolin – Figured I would try a redirection of the other post. :-)

@ChazMaz Are you sure that we learn to be violent, and not that we learn how not to be violent?

@Harp – Goes both ways. I prefer learning process. :-)

A desire for retribution is profoundly human. What do you suppose moved Draco, or Hammurabi?

well, of course it’s human in the sense that it’s a real part of our history. but it’s not necessary. we could raise a pacifist society if we wanted to. many families do raise their kids that way.

we behave however we are taught.

@ChazMaz But you couldn’t teach how not to be violent by removing memories.

@Harp i was going to say this in the other thread to @ChazMaz.. removing memories isn’t even necessary.

You could instead simply educate ontop of the current memories and teach non-violence.

I myself was one of the most violent kids in existence growing up and then somehow it all stopped one day after my mom had a chat with me. I haven’t been in a fight since grade 6. I don’t see myself ever getting into a fight these days, even though i think i would love to. haha.

“But you couldn’t teach how not to be violent by removing memories.”

But the memories that triggered the action action would be gone.

“You could instead simply educate ontop of the current memories and teach non-violence.”
The problem I see with that is there is room for error.

@pdworkin I have to think about what you said. I think I agree, because if someone hurt my family, murdered someone in my family, I would rather see them suffer more than be put to death. I think that is how I would feel?

@ChazMaz There is a drug that is used in psychiatry that is a forget drug to try and “erase” specific occurances in ones life. Or, at least separate emotion or anxiety associated with the act in question. Some argue it is awful to take a memory from someone, because we are the sum of our memories. I think it is just fine if the patient wants it. ECT also causes some recent memory loss. I wonder if these methods are ever used to control or diminish thoughts in criminals? I always think of it as related to people seeking treatment with PTSD or depression.

@JLeslie – Still see that as there being room for error.

You might not and bet you do not get rid of all the disposition with current drugs.

I am talking that if you have a drug and or machine. That without a doubt will remove those memories. Every little bit of it. All the components that make up the disposition to kill.
Replacing with happy thoughts. :-)

Forget what we currently have.

Would we still want to see restitution?

The problem is that it’s not a single memory, it’s the sum total of how they all fit together, in combination with any characteristics the individual was born with. Trying to actually figure out exactly what to erase and what to leave would be virtually impossible. It would be easier to erase everything, but then you have to build the person from the ground up or they’re just a vegetable. So in that case you have to figure out how to build a whole set of false memories that work.

Maybe then the answer, on a technical level, is that you erase their whole memory, give them back just enough to communicate and handle basic tasks, and put them in an institution that is designed to provide a positive education and produce nonviolence. Then you get punishment, they get locked up, but there is no worry about escape or release or about violence against other inmates or staff. Given the state of our prisons, mental institutions, and education system, maybe that’s just as impossible as building and implanting false memories.

@ChazMaz but there will likely be other triggers in their future. If the person simply never learned to deal with frustration without lashing out, or was never taught to control impulses or that others have equal rights, then they need teaching, not unteaching.

@Snarp How would you differentiate that from pre-frontal lobotomies which were all the rage up until the early ‘60s but are now looked upon with horror?

@Harp – “then they need teaching, not unteaching”

In a sense but in not knowing, we will fill the void with something else. In the example, To trigger the violent act.

Not having the experience that leads to the crime. And not in a situation to go down that same road again. You would think that the odds of that person developing that same behavior would be quit low.

Unless they go back to the crack smoking foster parents that have a classroom in the basement to teach how to kill. :-)

@pdworkin Well, I’m not really arguing that it is ethical. On the other hand, lobotomies were conducted without any real understanding of what the effect would be, and the effects varied considerably. In this case at least they have the opportunity to grow and learn and once again become a fully functional, healthy person. Lobotomies are permanent damage.

@ChazMaz Having raised two kids, it seems to me that the default human behavior in the absence of knowing is to lash out and follow one’s impulses.

@ChazMaz I understood what you meant, I just thought you might be interested in that other information since you talked about eliminating the memory of the foster parent. I stick by my answer, if they are a completely different person I don’t think I would seek punishment.

Considering the point @pdworkin raised…I was wondering what I would choose if I get to choose. Meaning lets say a person close to me is killed and I get to choose to wipe the killers memory, or to lock him up in jail. Then I think I would choose jail. But, lets say the legal system makes the choice to wipe the persons memory, then I would not choose to still put him in jail.

@JLeslie – :-)

Forget the past and you are doomed to repeat it.

If the killer is a rattlesnake…you chop it’s head off with a rig-axe or a machete.

Hear Santayana’s famed dictum once, and you are condemned to hear it repeated.

@pdworkin Brilliant. As with the mandate “Never again”...

I’m wading in quickly but I agree with Harp, I don’t see why erasing a criminal’s memory would prevent them from committing the same crime under similar provocation or erase their (drum roll) “debt to society.” If we could erase Hitler’s memory, what bloody use would that be?

Well…but would erasing his memory also take away what ever pathology made him do it in the first place?

am i the only one who sees the irony in a great number of atheists trying to figure out a way to create an eden?

@Blondesjon Numerous atheists have tried to create Utopian societies.

@janbb . . . That’s my point. Who’s believin’ in the Easter Bunny now?

@Blondesjon Well, if the Easter Bunny were a Socialist delivering a single payer health care system….

@janbb . . . <sigh> if only. . .

@janbb – G Fn A!

No, because he would still have the same brain that caused him to kill in the first place. so not having the memories wouldn’t necessarily keep him from killing again.

^ you have a strange idea about how people work.
memories make people do things, not so much the raw brain material itself.

Doesn’t the makeup of a brain affect how it guides the person thru life? More and more studies imply that tendencies are wired in.

murder though is a pretty specific set of actions. choosing a victim, practicing, and all that. takes a lot of development to become a murder. i’m sure it’s possible but i always think that kinda thing can only affect more general and basic things like addictive personalities, defiance disorders, dyslexia.. things like that. but who knows.. do we have any neuroscientists on fluther as yet? anyone know any who could be invited?

Fact from fiction, truth from diction. Even IF it were possible to alter the mind or even the personality of a murderer people would have a cow if it were used. They would see it as a get out of jail free card even if the person was 110% different after treatment or procedure. The words “closure”, “justice” etc gets thrown around but in the end it is all vengeance, people want pay back, for the person to get theirs. Having the ability will make no difference because as long as people see the face of the person who did the deed that killed or injured their loved one walking around not behind bars they will never go for it.

@Hypocrisy_Central – Exactly! Tells volumes about our society. Do you think it is a necessary evil? To behave/think that way.

@ChazMaz I don’t know if that sort of thinking is a necessary evil but it is sure a bankable human trait. It is almost like we have been programmed to think that way since we started to know ourselves. The notion of fairness is taught to us since we learn to understand the language; even though no one spends that much time to point out that life in the real world is not fair. We all do not get the same, we all can’t be winners, and when wrong happens sometimes the person who did it don’t get to answer for THAT deed but another might catch up to him/her. I am not immune to it, anyone hurt my kid I want to punish him/her for it. Even so I would not be for the death penalty because the sucker being gone would not bring back my loved one and since I could not do it myself it is not a full victory. But if the person inside was totally erased he would not have ANY memory of who he was or the people he knew it might make it easier because he would be like he was dead because all that he knew was gone not just someone he knew, and so long as he would never get his memory back I might be able to make peace with that.

Isn’t that kinda the same thing as killing them?

Actually, it is giving them a new life. And putting a “new” person on the streets.
The reason I asked this question is to understand why we prefer vengeance over a solution.

Vengeance being the solution.

Vengeance feels right.