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mattbrowne's avatar

More security using high-tech body scanners at airports - Would you be in favor of scanning children too?

Asked by mattbrowne (31735points) January 5th, 2010

What if Al-Qaeda decides to use 12-year-old girls or boys carrying plastic explosives? Airport security people would see naked children when using high-tech body scanners? What about pedophiles working for airport security? Or even normal people who might get an erection when looking at their screens while they are scanning a man or woman with a beautiful body? Or would security people be able to handle the situation like gynecologists?

There’s a recent news report stating that the new scanners might break child porn laws in the United Kingdom. What is your opinion about this?

From ‘The Guardian’:

The rapid introduction of full body scanners at British airports threatens to breach child protection laws which ban the creation of indecent images of children, the Guardian has learned. Privacy campaigners claim the images created by the machines are so graphic they amount to “virtual strip-searching” and have called for safeguards to protect the privacy of passengers involved. Ministers now face having to exempt under 18s from the scans or face the delays of introducing new legislation to ensure airport security staff do not commit offences under child pornography laws.

They also face demands from civil liberties groups for safeguards to ensure that images from the £80,000 scanners, including those of celebrities, do not end up on the internet. The Department for Transport confirmed that the “child porn” problem was among the “legal and operational issues” now under discussion in Whitehall after Gordon Brown’s announcement on Sunday that he wanted to see their “gradual” introduction at British airports. A 12-month trial at Manchester airport of scanners which reveal naked images of passengers including their genitalia and breast enlargements, only went ahead last month after under-18s were exempted.

The decision followed a warning from Terri Dowty, of Action for Rights of Children, that the scanners could breach the Protection of Children Act 1978, under which it is illegal to create an indecent image or a “pseudo-image” of a child. Dowty told the Guardian she raised concerns with the Metropolitan police five years ago over plans to use similar scanners in an anti-knife campaign, and when the Department for Transport began a similar trial in 2006 on the Heathrow Express rail service from Paddington station.

“They do not have the legal power to use full body scanners in this way,” said Dowty, adding there was an exemption in the 1978 law to cover the “prevention and detection of crime” but the purpose had to be more specific than the “trawling exercise” now being considered. A Manchester airport spokesman said their trial had started in December, but only with passengers over 18 until the legal situation with children was clarified. So far 500 people have taken part on a voluntary basis with positive feedback from nearly all those involved.

Passengers also pass through a metal detector before they can board their plane. Airport officials say the scanner image is only seen by a single security officer in a remote location before it is deleted. A Department for Transport spokesman said: “We understand the concerns expressed about privacy in relation to the deployment of body scanners. It is vital staff are properly trained and we are developing a code of practice to ensure these concerns are properly taken into account. Existing safeguards also mean those operating scanners are separated from the device, so unable to see the person to whom the image relates, and these anonymous images are deleted immediately.”

But Shami Chakrabarti, of Liberty, had concerns over the “instant” introduction of scanners: “Where are the government assurances that electronic strip-searching is to be used in a lawful and proportionate and sensitive manner based on rational criteria rather than racial or religious bias?” she said. Her concerns were echoed by Simon Davies of Privacy International who said he was sceptical of the privacy safeguards being used in the United States. Although the American system insists on the deletion of the images, he believed scans of celebrities or of people with unusual or freakish body profiles would prove an “irresistible pull” for some employees.

The disclosures came as Downing Street insisted British intelligence information that the Detroit plane suspect tried to contact radical Islamists while a student in London was passed on to the US. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab’s name was included in a dossier of people believed to have made attempts to deal with extremists, but he was not singled out as a particular risk, Brown’s spokesman said.

President Barack Obama has criticised US intelligence agencies for failing to piece together information about the 23-year-old that should have stopped him boarding the flight. Brown’s spokesman said “There was security information about this individual’s activities and that was shared with the US authorities.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/04/new-scanners-child-porn-laws

Any thoughts?

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30 Answers

Grisaille's avatar

Normal security?

I’d imagine airport management would want specially trained individuals in charge of such checkpoints and scanners. If that is the case, I’d also suspect a deep psychological evaluation would be administered. So, yes, the profession should become specialized, akin to a pediatrics or gynecology. Sans the medical part.

And I didn’t read the article. Shame on me.

PandoraBoxx's avatar

My take is that body scan images should be held to the same type of standard that health insurance companies are held with respect to personal health insurance. Images from airport scans should be held to the same standards of privacy. With regards to images of children, the scanner should be female, reducing access of pedophiles to scans of children.

Beyond that, I would have to say that airline travel is not a right. If you need to get from point A to point B, you do have options besides flying. If you have a problem with the restrictions on air travel, take an alternative means of travel even if it’s inconvenient; plan accordingly. Or stay home.

Staalesen's avatar

So there are no woman pedophiles ?

Trillian's avatar

Good take, @PandoraBoxx. Why is it that with every new security measure that is forced on the airlines a group of people immediately begin to raise a fuss. I presume that these are the same people who wish to be kept safe…
The Vietnamese used children booby trapped with explosives. I think we’d all be safe in assuming that children don’t mean all that much more to this particular group whose primary goal is to kill us all. Why do we immediately jump to child porn? “Oh we must keep our children safe.” I’d be more worried about the PHYSICAL safety of any child and any other person boarding the plane. If one were to discover a device on a child, at least there is a chance that the device could be removed, thus ensuring longevity for that child as well as everyone else in the vicinity…

mattbrowne's avatar

@Grisaille – Well, I was under the impression that the scans are handled by the same people who now run the hand luggage scanners and metal detectors. Of course you need additional training how to handle a body scanner.

DrBill's avatar

Screen everyone.

If you have an issue with a stranger (who has passed a background) looking at you, you need to ask your parents why they taught you to be ashamed of your body.

The security teams have the right to do a strip search, including a body cavity search, so why would anyone be upset at an anonymous guard looking at a fuzzy image.

Air travelers are giving up a small amount of privacy in exchange for safety, I think that is a cheep price.

If you don’t like the scanner, take a bus, drive, walk, or buy your own plane.

Travel is a right, flight is a privilege.

Pandora's avatar

I am not in favor of body scans for several reasons. Lets be realistic. So far scanning our bags isn’t 100 percent effective. Things get missed. Second for it to view your clothing doesn’t it mean you have to be exposed to a certain amount of radiation? What of the people who travel a lot because of business? Third unless I’m in a doctors office I don’t care to have a full physical. It this goes through I’m never flying again. So to all those places I would visit and spend money, so long. To the airlines I would’ve help support through purchasing tickets, so long. If I wanted to be peaked at naked I would join a nudist colony.
Now on the matter of this all happening because of the Christmas terrorist, I say scanning was a small portion of it. As I believe it, he wasn’t scanned when he went through. Let face it. If a terrorist has enough money or connections he can pay someone to look the other way. But in truth he was put on a no fly list and no one stopped him. His own dad was concerned and no one stopped him. The ball was dropped the moment someone allowed him to purchase a ticket. In stead of a new way to make travelers feel embarrassed or feel like they can no longer fly, how about following the rules and regulations already set. Put more security doors in airports that won’t allow people to mix once screened. Use id cards to scan through different parts in the airport. Screen workers for drug abuses that may make them take bribes and so forth. Lots of things they can do before screening people in the buff.

mattbrowne's avatar

@PandoraBoxx and @Trillian – Personally I support the scanners and I have no problem using them the next time I need to board an airplane. There’s a very controversial public debate in Europe right now and I just thought it might be interesting to have one on Fluther too.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Staalesen – Hmm, I’m sure there are, but I wonder how many. I would expect to be at least 20 times more male pedophiles than female ones. Are there any studies on this?

DrBill's avatar

PS

if we don’t scan children, the terrorist will use children to get their illegal stuff on the plane.

Simone_De_Beauvoir's avatar

My take is that people can get their rocks off no matter what we do or do not do – and if we’re scanning people, we should scan kids too as parents might be using them for sinister purposes. Also I want to make it clear that I do NOT believer using these scanners will increase security – I completely agree with my partner in that all this shit is just for show.

ragingloli's avatar

And I am opposed to nude scanners in general. Would it increase security? Maybe. But at what cost? Nothing less than human dignity, the right to privacy and informational self determination. If you combine it with “racial profiling” you would also violate anti discrimination laws.
So the terrorists may not strap bomb belts on children. They will just put the explosives and the detonator inside them, triggered by a small piece of software on a cellphone. What are you going to do about that? Anal probes for children?
As @Pandora said, it is all bollocks, and the correct way to handle this is to actually use the information that is already available. But that is not being done and somehow the people in charge do not even consider that option. No, they call for even further dissolution of rights, as if that would make us any safer when the people involved will fuck that up just as much as they fuck up the current systems in place, that, if handled properly, would be more than sufficient to provide adequate safety.
Remember, kids, the incompetence of the people involved in handling available information and intelligence is what caused this guy to get on the plane unfettered, and it was the same incompetence that caused 9/11 to happen (It was known that Osama was a potential threat to the US long before Bush took office, but the bush regime chose to ignore it, let the planes hit, and capitalised on that calamity to make the country less free).
And it will be incompetence that will allow more attacks to succeed, no matter how many scanners you install.

jrpowell's avatar

It would be easy to bomb a bus in Ohio. You could forget your backpack. If all this airplane shit is real we shouldn’t worry because the terrorists are stupid. I’m not a fan of conspiracy theory’s but something feels strange.

mattbrowne's avatar

@ragingloli – Thanks for this very interesting article !!

IchtheosaurusRex's avatar

It just points to the futility of relying on technology to solve the problem for us. Umar’s trick underwear isn’t the issue. Umar is. He should have had his visa yanked after his own father ratted him to the U.S. authorities.

Snarp's avatar

@Grisaille Good luck getting TSA to pay for “specially trained individuals” to man the scanners. They’ll be trained all right, just like the one who told me I couldn’t bring juice aboard for my toddler because he was a toddler and not an infant, in spite of the fact that the TSA rules clearly say “infants and toddlers”. I wouldn’t count on getting high quality personnel out of TSA for anything.

I think these scanners are a bad idea in general, children or not. Aside from the invasion of privacy you’ve got a very expensive piece of equipment and the need for more personnel and more lost time in security, for what benefit? The risk of a terrorist attack is already lower than the very low risk of mechanical failure or pilot error. Would the airlines approve spending this kind of money to maybe reduce the risk of mechanical failure a small amount? Especially when there are so many other less expensive improvements already possible, like just sharing data better?

CMaz's avatar

Scan them all!

Then scan them again!

I just want to get on the friggin plane!

mattbrowne's avatar

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – I think it will, but it will force the same number of terrorists to commit acts of terror by some other means. Flying will be a bit safer, but something else won’t. I agree with @IchtheosaurusRex. We need to ask: Why are there terrorists? How does their recruitment system work? What motivates young people to pursue the career of a suicide bomber? What are our long-term strategies to counter this trend?

Trillian's avatar

Hello @mattbrowne! I’m sorry if I gave you the impression that I was raggin’ on you. I was refering to the clowns that were all fussing and being quoted in the article you used. I understood that you were using the article as a point of reference, not that it necessarily reflected your opinion.
Will you accept my apology and forgive me? I find myself frequently misnuderstood because I don’t take the time to say EXACTLY what I’m thinking, I just assume people are right there with me. Dumb girl.

Pandora's avatar

Good point @ragingloli. They will only go to the next level. People don’t understand that terrorist are winning by us going supper sonic errational. A terrorist job is to create terror and to get us to turn on each other and become paranoid to the point were we start to lose our rights one by one. So far its them 10 and us zero. I like many others want to be protected but at what cost. I mean. We take bigger risks every day. Everytime we get behind the wheel of a car and drive or walk out in the street after dark we take the chance of getting hurt or killed. Statistically we are more likely to get a heart attack, or die in a car wreck, or get mugged in a city, or even die in a plane crash because of bad weather or the plane just fell apart, than getting bombed in a plane. Terrorist soon won’t need to go on planes. Plane fares will suffer causing airlines to fire more non essential people (non security) and cut back on plane repairs and cut back on buying new planes. So they will all just get old and one by one fall out of the sky.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Trillian – No, no, I didn’t understand your comment that way. No problem at all :-)

I just thought it might make sense to share my opinion about scanners as well, because I didn’t put this into the details section of the question.

tinyfaery's avatar

No matter what it is, if someone is determined to do something they will find a way to do it. We could perform cavity searches on every individual and someone could still find a way to bomb a plane.

I am worried that people are so willing to give up their rights for precarious safety. I for one am NOT okay with the idea of full body scans or profiling. I’d rather die than be subject to such scutiny.

philosopher's avatar

These terrorist will stop at nothing. The question is would people prefer to be scanned ? Children included or blow up aboard planes.
The Israel’s have a system that works . I am not sure anything less will .
If the world could make flying safe they would resort to other methods .
One day one of these barbarians will blow themselves up in a crowed city. We also have to worry about dirty bombs.
I went to college with a young guy who sadly told me his Mother was a pedophile .
Yes these terrorist wish to disrupt our way of life. They hate us because we are not like them. We are free. Unfortunately we must fine solutions to keep our democracy as safe as feasible .
I think the people who died on 9/11 would gladly have given up more freedom to live. The entrances had decent security. How can we protect a building from a plane? We simply have to do our best. They will keep coming up with new insane methods because they are not rational. Rational people do not blow themselves up .

ETpro's avatar

If you are going to scan, you have to scan everybody. Skip women, and the terrorist will send women. Skip children, and you will get walking explosive tykes. They would have no qualms packing a newborn with plastic explosives if they know that is what it takes.

Staalesen's avatar

@mattbrowne I am not sure of any studies, but based on a lot of cases I have seen in the media from around Europe, a large number of the males have had a female helper. And in norways most known case, I belive about half of the charged was females.
And take a look at a loot of historical biographies, where quite a lot of serial killers, rapists, etc were abused by mothers…
Not stating fact here, just what I could remember of the top of my head.

mattbrowne's avatar

@Staalesen – There’s an interesting article about female pedophiles, see link provided by @ragingloli !

kevbo's avatar

@mattbrowne, regarding the “resolving terrorism” question, this researcher’s work will probably interest you. His thesis is basically that terrorism is a logical counterpoint to combat occupation by a modern democracy. To quote: ”“At bottom, suicide terrorism is a strategy for national liberation from foreign military occupation by a democratic state” ”

mattbrowne's avatar

@kevbo – This is book is highly interesting and it offers exactly the kind of analysis we need. Does the author recommend countermeasures? What can the west do to end suicide terrorism?

Ron_C's avatar

I think people worry too much about people seeing them naked and not enough about the substantial dose of radiation it takes to scan your whole body. Combine that with the fact that the higher the airplane flies the greater the gamma radiation dose you receive. I would not permit young women or children being scanned with the full body scanners.

Al Qaeda is an evil organization they are violating their supposed religious beliefs and are are solely interested in murder and power. I can understand fearing them but they deserve only contempt.

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