Do you think if The State of Israel was created now and in it's present form it would be recognised by the majority of nations in the world?

It’s hard to say. It’s historically popular to hate the Jews, but a lot of the recent antisemitism stems particularly from the existence of the State of Israel.
More data would help, like information about which other countries the 20+ don’t like.

It depends entirely on how it is created.

There are a number of reasons why other countries don’t recognize Israel—some of them having to do with internal politics and scapegoating, certainly—but one of the main reasons is that Israel was established on land that other people were living on, and these people were forcibly evicted. While many Jewish settlers were peaceful, others were militant and used terrorism to achieve their goals. Most of the people who live in “Israel” now are not Israelis but native Palestinians who had nowhere to go and now live under fairly brutal military occupation.

This is hardly an ideal situation to start a new country. There are a few examples of countries peaceably coming into existence—for example, Slovakia and the Czech Republic—that have had no trouble gaining international recognition.

I don’t think it would be created now. Timing had a lot to do with its’ creation. If israel was going to become a nation without the circumstances after WWII, it probably would have become a country after battles for the land. It probably would have been bloodier than what we have seen in the last 60 some years. Maybe in the end that would have been better? Ugh. Not that more died, but that people could not say imperialistic Europe gave it to the Jews.

So if the Jews had not been given the land, would it have been given to the Palestinians? It would be a Palestinian government? I doubt they would be very nice to the Jews there.

From what I understand Israel was not the only land being considered after WWII, so if they had been given other land, probably a lot of Jews would be there, and the population where Israel is today would be much lower. Although, from what I understand Jews were already buying up some land there, and of course many Jews already did live there.

My answer was kind of a non-answer. Just had a bunch of ideas in my head.

@JLeslie, I actually think the idea of “giving them land” to begin with is a relic of the timing of its creation 60 years ago—a relic of European colonialism.

The idea that the “civilized” people (meaning Europeans with advanced military technology) can just come in to “savage” or “barbarian” lands, like Palestine or like Africa, and draw whatever boundaries they see fit. Or even take over government and install new ones—because the savages somehow weren’t using the land anyway.

Combine this ideology with the even more idiotic idea that a chunk of desert was promised to a certain ethnicity by a Mesopotamian sky god, and wa-la, you’ve got Zionism.

Both of these ideas do persist today, unfortunately, but they’re taken less seriously—especially by the international community. And for good reason.

@Qingu Wait, I want to make sure I understand you. I think we are agreeing right? Are you referring to my statement that land would have been given to the Palestians? I mean back 60 some years ago, not today. If the Jews didn’t get Israel, who would have been given it? The fact is Europe was dividing up the middle east at that time.

Honestly, it seems that the Europeans created a lot of problems. When that crazy Iranian president says, “if the holocaust happened in Germany, why not give the Jews that land?” I see why he would have that Point of View. I support Israel, I am just saying I See why people in the middle east might buy into that line of thought.

Oh, I wasn’t disagreeing.

I was saying that the concept of Europeans “giving” this land to anyone is ridiculous. Though it would be less ridiculous to “give” it to the people who actually lived there at the time. :)

At the time the zionist were given statehood, they had a functioning government with services,
@Qingu The zionists were mostly secular socialists (read atheists) Except for the king david hotel… can you give me an example terrorism at the time. ‘Most’ of the inhabitants of israel are jews, about 5+ million and about 2 million arab muslims. The only muslims who live in a democratic country of laws. And therein is a point… if muslims can live side by side with the jews… why can’t the jews live in muslim controlled areas. I think you should study a basic history before making a fool of yourself.

@Tomfafa But it seems that many of the Palestinian Israeli’s are not happy with living in the country? Or, I should say the country being under democratic Israeli control. So complex. Arabs cannot be in the Israeli army even if they are citizens of the country. They are not treated as full citizens really. I understand why, but it makes for a very difficult situation. Do any Palestinians feel an Israeli identity? Like a Jewish American feels an identity with both being Jewish and being American?

@Tomfafa, first of all, the idea that Israel could be “given” statehood by European powers is ridiculous on the face of it, whether or not they had a functioning government.

As for terrorism—as I said, many settlers were peaceful. But there were paramilitary groups, such as Irgun and Lehi. I classify their attacks against native Palistinian towns as “terrorism” because that’s exactly what it was—the word “terrorism” doesn’t just mean Muslims attacking Western powers. These people went into villages and either violently forced people to flee or threatened to do so. Over half a million people were forced out of their homes this way. See Nakba

As for population: the population of the occupied territories in Israel is about 4 million. Together with Muslim Arabs living in Israel proper, they outnumber non-native Israelis… which is why Israel refuses to treat them as citizens. If they did, Jewish Israelis would be demographically outnumbered. (This is also, paradoxically, why Muslims reject the two-state solution. A one state solution where Palestinians in occupied territories had basic democratic rights would effectively dissolve the state of Israel.)

Why can’t Jews live in Muslim controlled areas? I’m not sure if you’re trying to draw a connection to Jews living as dhimmis in Muslim-occupied Spain. But Israel isn’t “Jews living in Muslim controlled areas.” It’s “Jews forcibly conquering and militarily occupying Muslims.”

@JLeslie au contraire, the palestinians are very happy to live in israel. Yes they are sadly sometimes treated as second class citizens. They are not allowed to serve in the military because the pressure from outside to commit horrors would probably make them crazy. The druze do serve and they are muslims. As far as identity goes… muslim is a cult that allows no other identity… look at what is going on in our own military.

“The Palestinians are very happy to live in Israel” is an insane statement.

@Qingu Whatever.

@Tomfafa I see. I would have assumed that there were some Palestinians who were happy to live in a democracy, especially those who are educated and less religious, but I would have guessed this was the minority. The Arab and Iranian Muslims I know in the US left their countries to get the hell out of dodge and the radical ways of the countries they came from. I have very little knowledge of what it is really like in Israel, I don’t want to rely on how America portrays it ZenAgain has answered a lot of questions to improve my knowledge.

I know what you mean by the pressure, I think that is evident with what happened at Fort Hood. The military should have let him out of his duties when he asked. I think he knew he was very conflicted.

@Qingu I want to start by saying that I pretty much always agree with everything you write everywhere on Fluther. I also want to say that I do not agree with @Tomfafa‘s contention that “muslim is a cult that allows no other identity.”

I’m doing all of this prefacing because I am very much aware that discussions around the Israeli/Palestinian conflict often devolve into animus and reflexive “side-taking,” and I want to try and avoid that.

Ok…all that being said. I think, @Qingu, that you are presenting a rather simplistic view of the establishment of the state of Israel. Simple does not mean wrong, of course, it only means that there are important nuances missing. For instance, the impetus for the population shifts that occurred in the wake of the 1948 war are much debated. Your version that, “These people [Jewish forces] went into villages and either violently forced people [Palestinians] to flee or threatened to do so,” is certainly accepted by some (though citing Wikipedia on a topic as controversial seems unwise). Another version goes that Palestinians were told to leave by their own leadership to clear the way for the imminent invasion.

In my opinion, the most authoritative work on the subject comes from Benny Morris’s “Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem.” My takeaway from that book was that, some Palestinians were indeed forced to leave, and others left of their own accord. Most, it seems, were trying to escape the dangers of living in a war zone.

The point here is not to convince you of my particular view, but to complicate the picture that you presented.

At the risk of really going on too long, let me also try to complicate your view of Zionism. You wrote, “The idea that the “civilized” people…can just come in to ‘savage’ or ‘barbarian’ lands…and draw whatever boundaries they see fit. Or even take over government and install new ones…Combine this ideology with the even more idiotic idea that a chunk of desert was promised to a certain ethnicity by a Mesopotamian sky god, and wa-la, you’ve got Zionism.”

I have to say that this really seems off-base to me. Zionism developed as a political idea at the same time as dozens of other nationalisms. The only appreciable difference between a desire for a “Jewish” country and the desire for a “Russian” one or a “French” one is that Jews, as a people, were living in a diaspora. There are plenty of things wrong with nationalism that can critiqued, but there is no inherent connection between Zionism and colonialism (though I recognize fully that there are some very respectable scholars who would disagree).

As for whether or not a “Mesopotamian sky god” promised the land to Jews, Zionism’s claim to the territory now known as Israel does rest on this belief. Rather it rests on the historical fact that Jews did live there for hundreds and hundreds of years before being exiled. Does that justify the creation of a Jewish state on that particular land in 1948? I won’t take a position on that in this post, but I will vigorously rebut the contention that the Jewish people’s only claim to that spot is religious in nature. In fact it is the same claim that Germans have to Germany, and as it turns out, the same claim as Palestinians have to Palestine. There seems to me to be no rational reason to deny Jewish connection to that portion of the globe, just as I cannot reasonably deny it to Palestinians.

@Tomfafa I have to clarify one thng, I think there are many Palestinians who want to live in a democracy, I just don’t think there are many who want to live in Israel.

I am an israeli, though I came to the US at a young age, I visit israel regularly because almost all my relatives still live there. I could never live there… I could never worry about a bomb EVERY time I leave the house, the stress would age me. Yet the israelis go about their lives… truly they are heroes.
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The country itself is a miracle, for turning the dessert in an agricultural garden, for applying and receiving the second greatest amount of patents on the globe (second to the US, a country of 300 million, israel is a country of 6 millions) I could go on and on.
.......................................................................................................................... During the war of independence… the israelis had squads of four… ONE or TWO had rifles, the rest had washbasins… my uncle was very young and had a washbasin. My father was a paratrooper, tough but too much of a hippy and too much in love with mom to live in strife, we came here. I speak fluent arabic and I have met many arabs living in israel. Yes muslim is a cult of death, by their own words, evil by my words.

@Tomfafa And 20% of nobel prizes have been awarded to Jews, less than one quarter of one percent of the worlds population. You don’t have to sell me. :).

I grew up in DC, l new many Arabs and Iranians, and so from childhood I have good memories of my friends. They were very Americanized having come here as very young children or born here.

I only know two Palestinians though. One I knew briefly in Raleigh, NC, we walked together through the neighborhood for exercise. The other is married to the daughter of a friend of mine. He participated in that seeds of peace program when he was young. He was raised in America. His mother is Christian (she later converted) and his father Muslim. He married a Jewish girl, and his dad is not happy about it. Meanwhile, I am waiting for them to have a baby, I figure it will grow up and bring peace to the middle east.

My husbands father speaks Arabic, Hebrew, and Spanish, and now some English. His parents (so that is my husbands paternal grandparents) immigrated from Israel to Mexico. But just to confuse things my husband was raised Catholic by a Catholic mother, but that is another story.

I know a lot of arabs… hospitable and generous to a fault, My father and I are some of the very few jews that are accepted in the cafes along atlantic ave in brooklyn… they confide in us. Although I have helped many families financially… still I watch my back very carefully.
I have sponsored a big moroccan wrestler who wanted to stay here, I opened a gym for him. I had friends in school who were persian jews… very bright minds… beautiful language and very pretty girls. Those who are my friends I love, like my father does. Still… these people were hijacked by this muslim cult! Just my feeling, what can I do? I have read the koran (I have a photographic memory) and am shocked by how savage a religion it really is. Sadly, my father and I disagree on this point.

@Michael Great post! More than I can do.

@Tomfafa , the Torah isn’t full of rainbows and butterflies either. It’s just as “savage”, if not more.

Speaking of terrorism, we the Lebanese people have been experiencing Israeli brutality for decades. Israel only has itself to blame for why Hizbullah exists today.

I’d love nothing more for some compromise to be reached, but until then, if you have any IDF connections, dear @Tomfafa, can you please send me maps of all the mines that your lovely compatriots buried in our land? People are losing lives and appendages. Shukran.

Yes, thanks.

It depends: if Israel was being created today, would the land set aside for the Palestinians be co-opted by another group and named “Jordan?” Would they try to differentiate themselves from the Palestinians, despite being virtually identical, both ethnically and culturally? Would the so-called “Jordanians” be creating a refugee situation by leaving their brothers landless instead of accepting them into their own territories?

@montreality I just don’t know why I’m bothering but… lebanon was destroyed when arafat was thrown out of jordan, his thugs descended upon that beautiful country and turned it into hell. Ask the shopkeepers of beirut. The koran has 500 open ended passages of outright hatred and a little over 100 calls to butcher the infidels. The torah is historical narrative. Islam descended upon the earth like a mindless plague far worst than aids or cancer. The only thing israel did to create hizzbulbul is breath. israel has endured 11,000 morters and rockets since the return of gaza… can’t you guys make pottery or beads or something besides bombs? Don’t try to sneak into israel to kill children and you won’t step on a mine. Shukran.

@Michael You quoted @Qingu You wrote, “The idea that the “civilized” people…can just come in to ‘savage’ or ‘barbarian’ lands… I had understood @Qingu to be refering to the Europeans, not the Jews with that sentence. I am torn with the zionist movement myself. I think if the Jews get Israel because they were there for a long time, then we here in America have to give our land back to the Native Americans. This really does not affect my thoughts on Israel, because the way I look at it, the Israeli’s were given Israel by what was legitimate at the time, in my opinion, and now they have worked hard to make it a prosperous productive nation. This is why they get to stay. Selfishly, as a Jew, I like the idea of having a place I am always welcome, but that is not my main motivator for it’s support.

Jordan and the Palestinians was brought up by @drdoombot, and I have to say I am critical of the Arab world not helping the Palestinians more and taking them in. America in many ways is a second home for Jewish people. Most of us in America, if the middle east was peaceful, would barely think about Israel I think. So, I have to wonder if the Palestinians were living good lives in other countries and there was peace in the middle east; if they too, over time, would take on the identity of their new country and it would all be less of an issue.

@Michael, I agree with what you wrote, and I am guilty of oversimplifying. Zionism is certainly more multifaceted than colonialism + Biblical promised land. And I agree that it is wrong to say “the Jews” as a whole committed terrorist acts against the Palestinians. As I said, many Jews who emigrated to Israel did so peacefully.

But it is true that some Jews—namely the paramilitary groups that would eventually unite to form the IDF—committed terrorist acts and forced the indigenous population to flee their homes. And this was an atrocity that the Palestinians are still understandably outraged about.

I see the establishment of Israel as similar to the establishment of America. Many people came to America and in Israel in peace, for a variety of reasons, some of them religious, some of them secular. But there were people already living in both places and these people were treated horribly by a number of the settlers and forcibly evicted from the land they were living on.

Manifest Destiny also strikes me as similar to the idea of Zionism.

And I don’t think it makes a single shred of sense for Jews to “claim” land they haven’t been living on or controlling for hundreds or even thousands of years. I agree you don’t have to be religious to do this, but “we were living there back in Roman times” is about as justified as “Yahweh promised it to us.”

@Tomfafa, “muslim” isn’t the name of the religion. It’s Islam.

And say what you will about them being a death cult. At least their religion doesn’t preach genocide. Yours does. See Deuteronomy 20:16, and the entire book of Joshua. Unlike the Torah, the Quran never celebrates the wholesale slaughter of every man, woman and child living in the “promised land” to clear the path for the “chosen ones.”

And Israel has killed far, far more Palestinian children than the other way around. Can’t you guys make pottery or beads or something besides fighter planes, depleted uranium shells, and illegal nuclear weapons? Your double standard is utterly amazing.

And before you ask, no, the fact that I’m criticizing Israel’s immoral behavior doesn’t mean I support Palestinian terrorism.

You don’t get to criticize one side’s behavior if you support the same behavior on your side.

Well, it depends who they got the independence from. Israel received the sovereignty from the British who “legally” in a loose sense here, owned Palestine lands. So when Britain, willingly gave up its power to Israel and as its former master, recognise it, no one can say that the government of Israel was some rebel group or some illegitimate faction that seized power by force and violence.

If the territory was still British who was willing to cede power, I see no problems.

If the legal owners refuse to give power and it secedes, than it would probably go unrecognised by most nations.

Tomfafa, Israel in just one of its campaigns (Gaza Dec. 08-Jan. 09) killed a lot more children than suicide bombs or missiles from Gaza/West Bank ever did.. And since when did Hizbullah lob rockets on children your side of the border?? Again, check your facts. Israel’s atrocities against civilians in Lebanon during summer 2006 honestly surpass anything Hizbollah has ever done in terms of crimes against humanity.

Hizbollah doesn’t exist because Israel “breathes”, it exists because of what Israel did in the south of Lebanon, both the IDF and the local goons (SLA) that it collaborated with. I have been to the torture prison in Khyam near the south of the border after Israel withdrew in May 2000.. It’s one of the worst things that I witnessed in person. You can add torture methods to your ever growing list of patents, you definitely excel in this area.

I am no fan of Arafat, but one good thing he did was draw the world’s attention to the plight of the Palestinians. Israel would like nothing more than for them to either die off or be dispersed, to disappear as a people (not unlike the native Americans on this continent), but it will never achieve that because the Palestinians’ will is strong and they are in the right.

Anyway I never blame Palestinian refugees or Israel only for what happened to Lebanon.. They created a lot of problems, sure, but there were tensions between Lebanese already. It’s a lot more complex than “Lebanon was an amazing country but then Arafat came and ruined everything”.

@montreality, just to be clear, though, would you agree that Hizballah does not help the situation? Being a paramilitary political group that for its own part instigates a great deal of violence (regardless of whether or not Israel is more violent)?

@Qingu – hah, I could go on for hours about this.

Israel aside, HA does not help the internal situation in Lebanon at all. It’s actually a lot stronger than the army itself, and this fact is deeply disturbing. One can hope that when Lebanese Shiaa Muslims feel less marginalized, and when some compromise is reached regarding Israel/Palestine, then HA would disarm (because in theory, it would have no reason to keep existing). Things have been pretty bad since Hariri was assassinated in 2005. The country was basically split into two camps, and there have been quite a few street fights, some really serious. Tensions have gone down since the last election in the summer. A new cabinet was eventually formed, and every party got a share of something (in terms of ministries).

Every sect in Lebanon needs to feel that it is getting something, otherwise stability is an issue.

As for my personal feelings regarding HA, I don’t like them when it comes to internal politics (I am on no one’s side, really). However, when it comes to external threats it’s better to have them than to have nothing. Our army is not very well-equipped.

@montreality, do you really think Hizballah does any good for preventing “external threats,” though? It’s not as though they actually function remotely as a deterrent to Israel’s aggression. In fact Israel uses them to justify their aggression. The whole reason for the recent war, both publically and internally in Israel, was to beat up Hizballah.

Hizbullah played a big part in Israel withdrawing from the south of Lebanon in 2000. Even if they were to disappear overnight, Israel would still find some other excuse to come back in.

@montreality, I disagree. Clearly I’m no fan of Israel, but I see no indication that they would invade Lebanon just for the hell of it. I think you underestimate just how threatened Israelis are by Hizballah—whether or not such fears are overblown in reality. Hizbollah willingly, and stupidly, plays the part of the bogeyman for Israel when the existence of such a bogeyman is the primary motivation for Israel’s aggression.

There will always be some excuse. First of all, if HA ceased to exist, some other (perhaps even worse) group would come in to fill the void. Second, there is that contentious issue about freshwater. Third, there are wackos in Israel who think that their biblical “promised land” should include areas further north (ie: parts of Lebanon). I can keep on coming up with hypothetical reasons, realistic or far-fetched, but it doesn’t matter because Israel will not let us be. And even more stupid than Hizbollah is Israel itself, for thinking it could get rid of HA by bombing left and right. The only way out is via diplomacy, until then more blood will be shed because of these two.

Your last sentence greatly oversimplifies HA. It is not a bogeyman for shits and giggles. It came into existence because of the atrocities that Israeli and Palestinian fighters were committing in the south of Lebanon in the 1980s. People in that area were getting stepped on, and no one was giving them a second thought. There is a legitimate reason why it came into being, and it will not go away until some solution is reached. It is now a political group to be reckoned with, and enjoys the support of many people because of the social services it provided and continues to provide (a role that the supposed government should have been doing).

@thewelshman, the land was not Britain’s for it to so kindly give away. People lived there. Palestine might be a historic, rather than political, name but it doesn’t change the fact that the area was not exactly wild and uninhabited as some might say. So the indigenous people of that land are now called Palestinians.

I find it funny/sad that we should pay the price for European racism. So the first group of people treated a second group of people like subhuman, and the second group of people then displaced a third group of people and treated them like subhuman. Makes a lot of sense :-/

@montreality, I think your attitude is overly cynical and is weirdly similar to the mindset held by Israelis: “There will always be some excuse for the evil Palestinians to attack us, even if we didn’t bomb them.”

I agree that there are indeed crazies in Israel for whom this is probably true. But can you really not see how Hizbollah’s activities basically serve to give these people in Israel more power and legitimacy? I mean, this is a basic pattern in history. If you menace a country, that country’s radical and reactionary elements will gain more power. It happens in America, it happens in Palestine, it happens in Lebanon, and it happens in Israel (and it happened in Germany before World War II).

And I agree that Hizbollah did not arise in a vacuum; that doesn’t mean it’s not complicit in perpetuating the cycle of violence.

haha
I admit I’m a bit cynical, but it’s a difficult subject. Considering the suffering over the decades, and not many things to be optimistic about right now, it’s hard to stay positive about it.

What I was trying to say is that this issue is too complex and won’t be magically solved should HA disappear overnight. No, I can’t really see how HA gives Israel more power and legitimacy, because Israel doesn’t really need valid reasons, as I have been trying to explain in past posts- because there will always be some supposedly legitimate excuse!

Anyway I think we will just agree to disagree. Thank you for your rational answers, I did enjoy reading them. Peace!

I don’t have any illusions about Hizballah disappearing. I just think they should renounce violence, give up their paramilitary status and become a legitimate political party in Lebanon. And if they gain full political control of Lebanon they should have a rational and peaceful strategy of engagement with Israel.

And I think you are ignoring the existence of many progressive Israelis who have no desire to attack their neighbors and may well dislike conservative government as much as you do. Israel is a complex country, just like Lebanon, and you can’t say things like “Israel will behave like this” as if it’s a monolithic entity with foregone foreign policy incapable of change.

I don’t really think we disagree on that much; but I do think I can convince you to not be quite so cynical at least. :)

In the last war with Lebanon, many years after the withdrawal in 2000, Israel entered Lebanon after Hizbullah kidnapped and killed soldiers on Israel’s side of the fence.

In the last war in Gaza in December 08, Israel entered Gaza after years of rocketfire towards Israeli civillians, despite Israel’s having withdrawn from the Gazan border in 05.

Arabs will forever view Israel as the agressor; never taking any responsibility fior their own situation – in the Middle East, and in the world. What have they contributed, anyway? Really?! Besides a global jihad against “zionism” and anything American and western, feeling eternally left-out, misunderstood and basically sorry for themselves; throughout history, after numerous global conquests (always by sword – then ultimately defeated) where have they left their mark on humanity in medicine, technology and even in warfare and strategy? It’s time to face the sorry facts.

Just saying.

QUESTION: Do you think if LEBANON, JORDAN, IRAQ OR IRAN or any other Arab nation were created now and in it’s present form it would be recognised by the majority of nations in the world?

Do you think if The USA was created now and in it’s present form it would be recognised by the majority of nations in the world?

@Zen_Again where have they left their mark on humanity in medicine, technology and even in warfare and strategy?

For a start they gave us The Decimal Point and a helluva lot more, algebra, sounds kinda Arabic wouldn’t you say?

watch this and learn

I think by “they” Zen meant Arabic Muslims in the past, oh, 500 years. It is fair to say that the ideology of Islam has not meshed well with scientific and moral progress.

That said, @Zen_Again, the blame for the situation in the middle east is not zero sum. And frankly, I tend to hold Israel to a higher standard because they are supposedly more civilized. With great power comes great responsibility.

Why exactly do the Arabs want Israel? Do they think it will bring them wealth, prosperity, a better life? Is it just that they feel it is their land? Or, do they just hate the Jews?

Good (rhetorical) questions @Zen_Again

@Qingu Please don’t give me deuteronomy or joshua or any of that, are the jews acting on it? Since the inception of islam, they have blitzkrieged the world in an orgy of death… tens upon tens of millions in india… ditto africa and the rest of the world, in fact mo himself beheaded of tribe of jews that had surrendered to him peacefuly. The banu qurayza, In 627 between 700 to 900 were boys and men made to squat over ditches and beheaded in groups, must of taken a long time because in the meanwhile (and while her family was being killed) mo raped a little girl named rayhana, his specialty, after all, was little girls. 7 to 9 hundred. The devil himself could not create such a cult. Millions of black africans were marched to the arabian peninsula to serve as slaves yet there are hardly any black people there now… cam you say eunuchs? This is what israel has to face every single day… go to you tube and look up ‘using children as human shields.’

I will agree that Jews have been relatively benign ever since the Romans destroyed their cult in 70 AD. (Before that, Jews occupied the “insane religious fundamentalist” niche that the Muslims you’re complaining about occupy today).

What you don’t seem to understand is that two wrongs don’t make a right. Pointing out the barbarism of Islam does not justify Israel’s atrocious and cynical actions in warfare or their idiotic foreign policy.

Also: take it from someone who dislikes organized religion in general, and Islam in particular, as much as anyone on Fluther: your hatred of Islam is out of line. The religion, like Christianity and Judaism, has a long history of atrocities, including slavery and mass murder. Unfortunately Muslims have not progressed as much as Jews and Christians, but their religion is younger. Singling out Islam as the “devil’s cult” is absurd and makes you sound less like an honest critic and more like a bigot.

@Qingu You are to sell give me a moral equivalency, I just can’t buy it. You call the jews a cult and yet we don’t proselytize and we are not trying to commit genocide. As for being a bigot… guilty! Imagine the world without the festering sore of paranoia, fear, sharia and for what? Can you tell me?

@Qingu Do you call one of the oldest religions – Judaism – a cult? Jesus was Jewish, for Heaven’s sake – no pun intended.

I am going to say that Israel has not be entirely “clean” of the mess in the Middle East – but after the UN declared two nations, one for the Jews and one for the Arabs (there were no Palistinians at the time) the result was for every single arab nation to declare war on the newly created Israel. At around the same time, India was given independance – good thing no-one decided to attack her – perhaps because she is too big and far away? Look at India vs. Pakistan today… no love lost between the arabs and India – she simply wasn’t a convenient target.

Israel’s national anthem is called The Hope – and in it there is a desire for Peace – the word for hello, goodbye and Peace in Hebrew. Show me one single Arabic language song calling for Peace – with the Jews or with anyone, for that matter.

Jihad is taught to the children, and all the educational material given out, Jews are called literally pigs – both as a derogatory term, and because it is not kosher. Interestingly enough, the qoran, only from the 7th century a.d. also adopted the pig as being unkosher – a term they adopted too.

Children are dressed in suicide vests and paraded in the streets of Gaza with pride. Martyrs, those seeking 70 virgins (what do the female suicide bombers get btw? Not really a feminist religion – or maybe it’s because women can’t even be seen behjind their jihabs and veils?) are immortalized (that’s funny) in huge placards in the city.

A religion that honours Jihad worldwide – that produced the likes of Saddam and Akmendijad and Bin Laden – then glorifies them and their “successes – like 9/11 – then roots for them (even Jordan, at the time, an American and Israeli ally) rooted for Saddam in the Gulf war – needs to change its education system from the roots.

Israelis look unto themselves to blame for this situation: in 67 – the six day war – or June war – began as a result of Arab wanting the land once again – after the defeat in 48 – and seeing a weakness – attacked Israel on all fronts – the results suck: Israel won, but did not retreat from all the land gained in the result.

Now 40 something years later – Israel is stuck between a rock and a hard place; return the land – now occupied by third generation Israelis who wanted to protect borders and “return” to biblical land (I disagree) – or annexing it – thus increasing the wrath of those determined for the lands to “return” to the Arabs. I remind you that these lands were not formally given to the Arabs in the UN conclusions and map of 47 – so they are legally in dispute anyway.

When has an Arab leader reached out ot Israel in peace, and not for land or for strategic purposes? Only when Saddat came to Israel and since then Israel has had a peace agreement with the (poverty stricken) arab state of Egypt.

Jordan – a political and economical joke, refused to keep the disputed land (and thus all the “Palistinian” refugees – smart – signed an agreement saying they do not want the land. Clever – but whose responsible for the refugees – in Africa – and anywhere? Why the few million Jews on the land that has historically and even biblically been theirs? It’s the size of New Jersey, I remind you – while the 300 million arabs in the middle Eastr alone, not to mention the millions around the world who have entered the States and Eurpoe (in poverty – seeking a better life) with 90% of the oil – need with tiny Israel – a land so small you can cross it in 30 minues from land to sea, and 4 hours from north to siouth – a land on desert (and then even deserted) ground – that the Jews have made flourish.

I think I’ve said enough. Wikipedia for more info.

ZEN OUT

We had the underwear bomber… so now we’ll have to get naked. There was an example of an ass bomber… it will happen again… then we’ll have to bend over and cough. We had the ‘flying imams’ and we are afraid to profile… 4 month old toddlers are searched just to show we don’t profile! An al-quada top leader with a long history of bombing complained that he was punched and now the 3 navy seals are being court martialed! Soon they will ‘soft target’ a train or a tunnel or a port and we will never know peace… just like israel! And yet we must accept this moral equivalency because somewhere in the dim folds of history the jews committed what? terrorism? They killed goliath?

@Zen_Again To add… arafat (the egyptian) called himself palestinan in ‘74 because he realised it was easier to get money from the UN and other arab countries. Friday night kiddush my family sang many songs of peace. 70% of israelis were polled to give the palestinus whatever just for peace. When bush was shown how narrow israel was he said ‘hell, in texas we got driveways wider than this.’ I’m sorry zen… but after the second rocket or mortar landed in israel… the jews forfeited their right to live in the country, they should have moved to the north pole.

@Tomfafa You have confused me: …but after the second rocket or mortar landed in israel… the jews forfeited their right to live in the country, they should have moved to the north pole… I assume you say this in jest – that you think that a country, any country, should move to the north pole after an attack? Maybe the US should just give up to Bin Laden after 9/11 – pack up – return the land to the Native Americans (for a few beads and booze) and move to the North Pole, too?

I am assuming that you are kidding – and your refusal to write a proper noun, like Jews, uncapitalized – is a typo. I even write Arabs, and Muslims, and even Islamic Terrorists with the proper grammatical capitalized. Even if you are Christian, you should respect the other religions – not like them – but respect them. Not every Arab is a terrorist. Just saying.

:-)

@Tomfafa, I’m not trying to convince anyone that the Israelis and the Palestinian terrorists are morally equivalent. I don’t think that has anything to do with anything I’ve said in this thread. I will agree that the Palestinians’ culture is significantly more barbaric than the Israelis (and, more broadly, “Islamic” culture is more barbaric than “Western culture.”

My point is that this doesn’t somehow absolve the Israelis’ of their mistakes or their immorality. The fact that al-Qaeda exists doesn’t somehow absolve the Bush administration of their support of torture or their myopic and dangerous foreign policy. If anyone is using the moral equivalency argument, it’s you—two wrongs do not make a right!

@Zen_Again, I don’t think Judaism is a single cult. The religion started as a collection of cults, some of them Babylonian and some (I’d argue) influenced from the cult of Aten in Egypt. The fact that it’s old doesn’t mean it’s not a cult—most religions start as cults, and the only difference between “cult” and “religion” is the number of members.

And I will echo what I said to Tomfafa to you. Pointing out the backwardsness of Islamic culture is not an argument that Israel is blameless. That is absurd. And personally, I believe that Israel (and the West in general) should be held to much higher standards because we are not as backwards as Islamic cultures. If we want to present ourselves as the “good guys” in this ideological struggle than that means having higher standards, even if it means handicapping ourselves from a military perspective. With great power comes great responsibility.

And I think both of you are ignoring patterns of history that Israel is stupidly falling into. If you treat a group of people like shit, if you evict them from their homes and occupy them militarily for decades, you should not be surprised when they start to act like savage barbarian terrorists. This is a pattern of history that has occured over and over again for thousands of years. Just like the Allies post WW1 bear some responsibilty for creating the terrible conditions in Germany that led to Hitler’s rise, I believe that Israel and Western powers bear responsibility for creating the terrible conditions that give rise to insane suicide bombers. Part of being a responsible and moral civilization involves being wise enough to avoid creating such conditions.

@Zen_Again A state should protect her citizens from rocket attack… letting 11,000 rockets and mortars rain down on israelis since the return of gaza is, in my opinion, an admission of failure as a nation. How many rockets or mortars would america (or any country) tolerate? 2? more? I don’t think so! Maybe I should rethink north pole… you Zen, can recommend a place where jews cam live in peace. Aa far as grammar goes, I studied math not english. I breeze thru the data input part with wild abandon! Force of habit makes me shift after a period. BUT… good for you that you have enough respect for islamic terrorists to capitalize. Sorry I don’t.

@Qingu You say ‘With great power comes great responsibility’. Brilliant you! So tell me… how many massacres should the jews endure early in 20th century palestine and still show restraint? How many massacres should the jews endure throughout the greater arab world before they flee to israel? How many terrorist attacks should the israelis endure before responding? Ten… a hundred… a thousand? Please tell me, I will talk to netanyahu. As far as bush and torture… placing a caterpillar on somebody or loud heavy metal music or any other ‘advance interrogation technics’... is that the reason for the burning of smyrna in 1924? Or the massacre of schoolchildren in beslan? Or drive by limb amputations in south thailand? The philippines? Or the rape jihad in sweden? Or the thousand other places muslims are expressing themselves.

@Tomfafa Armchair warriors, pacifists and everything in between are a dime a dozen; because Israel tolerated thousands of rockets before entering Gaza means it failed as a nation and Jews should go to the North Pole? Are you 12?

A certain imbecilic, yet oft entertaining MK Flato Sharon once said: Ma ata asita bishvil medina?

@Tomfafa, if I understand your argument, you are saying that because the Jews have suffered tremendously that gives them the moral justification to take the low road instead of using their power responsibly?

I certainly hope that’s not what you’re saying because that’s a pretty disgusting thing to say.

I won’t even respond to your ridiculous straw man re: the Bush administration’s torture. I don’t believe I wrote anything about time travel being involved in torture.

@Zen_Again Almost 13!

Just as an “intellectual exercise”, @Tomfafa – copy and paste all your comments about Israel into a word document and read them consecutively. You are all over the place. I can’t even follow what you say.

:-(

@Zen_Again Oh man!? Do I have to? There is no time for intellectual as I am flying myself to brazil er… sorry, Brazil. And this time… don’t try to follow!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSQnfSfAsPM&feature=player_embedded#at=102

@Qingu ‘if I understand your argument’... You say ‘suffered’ implying the holocaust etc. when I was clearly talking about the thousands of missiles and rockets raining down on israelis RIGHT NOW. I never reference to before the birth of modern israel. As to straw man… nowhere in my post did I refer to straw man… Don’t let reasoning interfere with your bias.
.......
As for disgusting… a low road type like me will always be disgusting to a noble saint like you! As if I give a fuck. You want disgusting? If I were PM in Israel… there would be no rocket three. You live in peace… or you die.