Would you give up nationalism for a truly better world?

“could bring peace”

Could is a tricky word.

I already live in a “could” place.

I wouldn’t, but only for the sake of the Olympics.

I think we should stop caring so much what other people are. Black, white, Sunni, She’ite, gay, straight, whatever. Deal with individuals, not with preconceived notions from labels.

Totally. Considering Canada, France. Love Obama and the hope he brings, but I dislike the way my life is controlled indirectly and directly by big business. Uncool.

Yes. It is no longer necessary to renounce my US citizenship in order to carry the passports of other countries. In the past, this kept me from accepting citizenship to certain nations. Given the same opportunities that I once had, I would most certainly accept the invitations and be as much a citizen of the world as possible without renouncing my US citizenship.

@ChazMaz Okay, just for you, make it, “would”.

TY. :-) Now you are talking.

Then yes.

@6rant6 , How immediate would it have to be? Actually, forget it. Yeah, I would. I’m down for going to another country.

IMHO, I believe that the US could bring it. Well, let me correct that. A modified America could. We could definitely do it. If we can’t, I really don’t see anyone else.

I wouldn’t give up American Nationalism as an exchange for another. But the concept of dropping the idea of nations altogether I agree wholeheartedly with.

@Maximillian Interesting. Why do you think the US could do that? Our relative standard of health has declined for a generation now, we certainly have to shoulder much of the blame for the current economic ills, and we have tried and failed miserably to create peace by waging war. Not much of a resume I think.

In a New York minute.

I don’t have a lot of nationalism to give up. I never felt much more commitment to the place where I happened to be born than to the rest of the cosmos. I’m not even much of a planetarist.

In fact I think nationalism is a bit like racism, really. Nationalism is the belief that the people of nation A are better than the people of nation B. The only difference is that nationality is substituted for race, another arbitrary group.
And there’s no persecution involved, except in times of war, but that’s not part of racism proper either. Racism is a socio-political philosophy, not a policy. That’s Nazism.
Both views deny that all people are born equal in worthiness, a notion I prefer to that sort of chauvinism.

In a heartbeat.

If we were to take the original, and I do mean original, standards of the Founding Fathers, we could do it. In fact, even today we could do it. Our set of beliefs are still widely accepted as good. (Excluding some of the more “controversial topics.) We have given aid to those in need. (See Haiti.)
Before I end this, let me say the Second Gulf war was a mistake. We should have immediately gone to Afghanistan.
But the first was in all rights correct. Iraq was going against UN mandates. They weren’t supposed to even look at Kuwait. When they invaded, the US gave them a warning: get out. You aren’t supposed to be there. If you don’t follow the rules, we’re going to enforce them. Last chance:leave.
What I’m saying is that, for the most part, we are good.

@Maximillian
The ideals can be said to be separate from the nation though and are often international.

Not likely. I just love the combination of islam, nationalism and builder.

For those who don’t get the reference, of course I would.

@SeventhSense But the US does still maintain ideals that much of the world does not share. Such as women rights.

I’m with Maxi here. The US is the closest we have.

For my part I’m in no hurry to give up nationalism for anything short of utopia.

@Maximillian
Yes much, but not all, and we don’t have to call that a nation or have a football game to prove who’s the best.

@SeventhSense Alright. Sure, we’ve got some pretty unnecessary (but totally incredible) customs in our culture. But for the most part, we’ve got some pretty good stuff.

@6rant6, would I? Shi’t. I almost did in ‘04 but I didn’t get into the grad school I could afford in Canada.

My country is a place. I don’t have allegiance to a place, I have allegiance to ideals. And if the place I live in stops upholding those ideals and some other place keeps them better, then why not move?

@Qingu You do, in fact, have an allegiance to your country. Its called, “The Pledge of Allegiance.” You said it numerous times when in school. You said you pledged allegiance to the Republic.

Wow, I didn’t realize the vapid declaration we force children too young to drive, vote, get drafted, or know anything about their country’s or the world’s history to mindlessly recite counts as a binding agreement.

@Qingu Seriously? Dude, get out…

@Qingu Sorry I didn’t clarify myself. So, as a senior, junior, or just plain old freshman in high school, you had no idea what you were saying? Were you that oblivious to the words you were saying? Sorry, but thats your fault.

Fortunately, my high school was enlightened enough not to force minors to parrot a loyalty oath before class.

@Qingu Oh, so your school district did not require to recite the Pledge? Interesting. I could have sworn it was the law.

Good thing you didn’t swear that… because then you would have sworn a false oath!

@Qingu Pardon? Are you saying that the Pledge is false? (Forget the God part for now.)
I believe that it is the law to recite the Pledge.

I don’t understand how a “pledge” can be true or false, it’s an imperative statement. “I pledge to pick up the laundry”—is that statement true or false?

And your belief on this matter is factually incorrect. In fact, it is unconstitutional to require students to say the pledge in public schools if they don’t want to say it. Something to do with freedom of speech.

@Qingu Then according to your logic, it unconstitutional to force new immigrants to learn English, and recite an oath to the US.

@Qingu
”“I pledge to pick up the laundry”—is that statement true or false?”
Semantics time?
If you really want to know: a pledge is a speech act, so it’s true by definition. It becomes true the moment you pronounce it. Just like you can apologise by saying “I apologise”.

And if in the USA it’s really constitutionally mandatory to make young children swear a pledge daily when they can’t be expected to understand what it stands for, I’m ever so glad I live far away from there.

I’m a European world citizen.

@Maximillian, I dont’ see how that follows from my “logic” or anything that I’ve said.

Though I would agree that forcing immigrants to say a loyalty oath is utterly pointless. And a bit creepy.

“Though I would agree that forcing immigrants to say a loyalty oath is utterly pointless.”

That is part of joining “the club”. Or do not be a part of it.

It’s a silly and pointless requirement and I’m sure there are many countries that don’t require a loyalty oath. I’m pretty sure Canada doesn’t.

I’m confused – do we require immigrants to recite a loyalty oath? I’ve never heard of this.

@janbb, I don’t actually know. Google search doesn’t immediately turn anything up for verification…. I’ve heard somewhere that immigrants have to do this but perhaps I was wrong.

There is an oath recited as part of the citizenship ceremony, maybe that’s what you are thinking about? But not, I don’t believe, for anyone with just a green card.

I believe that’s what I was thinking of.

@Qingu Canada requires would be citizens to learn about Canada and take an Oath of Citizenship.
http://canadaonline.about.com/cs/citizenship/ht/beacitizen.htm

Current version: I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfill my duties as a Canadian citizen

Also available in French. I’m beginning to think that Canadians rival Americans as chauvinists!

And for completeness, the US Oath of allegiance (which must be taken in a public ceremony):
_I hereby declare, on oath,
that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure
all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty,
of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen;
that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America
against all enemies, foreign and domestic;
that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same;
that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law;
that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States
when required by the law;
that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction
when required by the law;
and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of
evasion;
so help me God._

reference: http://www.uscis.gov/files/testimony/aguilar_testimony_040104.pdf (page 6)

Both of those oaths are ridiculous. I wonder if you can get out of saying “so help me God” on the U.S. one.

Does seem like [or affirm] out to be included, doesn’t it? Maybe the God thing is to ensure that the naturalized citizens will be moral enough to kill for’ners for their country. Or perhaps kill locals for their god. Not sure.

I do not find the oaths to be ridiculous. I’m not a big fan of the Pledge of Allegiance, in that I don’t believe oaths made before age 18 should be legally binding. That said it doesn’t matter: if you are born in the US you are subject to its rules such that if you ally with another country against the US you are guilty of treason (at least) regardless of whether your school was too cool for the PoA.

My two cents: I live in the Netherlands and I believe there doesn’t even exist any oath of nationalist allegiance here. I’ve certainly never heard of people expecting children to swear it.

And for the record, if it were anything like the American one copy-pasted by @6rant6, I wouldn’t agree to it now. If it were required for citizenship, I’d consider emigrating.
I may in the future decide our constitution is not worth defending, and I really can’t promise I would fight or kill anyone for my nation. I value having the right to be able to change my mind, the right to follow a pacifist philosophy if I decide to, and for that matter the right to disagree with the powers that be about who I need to shoot bullets at. Any nation that does not allow this sort of basic freedom of thought and conscience is a nation I would have serious doubts about wanting to live in.

I’m proud of the beautiful land in which I live, but not so much when it comes to the government. I recited the Pledge of Allegiance in grade school, but that was back when I didn’t understand the term ‘ideal’ and at that age I really didn’t really understand what an allegiance was. As for nationalism, I try to avoid getting involved in a group that aligns themselves under a particular flag, label or political movement, because such labels tend to stunt the intellectual growth and progress of those who wear them.

I apologize for my absence. The oath for citizenship is entirely legal and not just ceremonious. It binds the citizen to the laws that the country holds. I don’t know why a country wouldn’t do that. Any way, the Pledge of Allegiance is also a valid declaration of loyalty. Perhaps a 3rd grader, 6th grader, or maybe even a freshman in high school doesn’t completely comprehend what they are saying. But for those of you who didn’t understand what it meant as a junior or a senior, I have to ask, what grades did you get? Were you that ignorant and oblivious to what you were saying? That sounds like a lousy excuse to me.

@Maximillian
The problem with blind recitation is that very few people actually comprehend what they are saying after a while. Just look how many people crucify the national anthem singing in ceremonies.

@SeventhSense That doesn’t neglect the fact that you say it. And if you don’t know what you’re saying by the time you’re 16, 17, 18, then I doubt your intelligence. If I can understand it, so can others.

@Maximillian
You don’t have to get personal. I understand it but I’m just saying for the vast majority it goes in one ear and out the other. For example, “oer the ramparts we watched” Who has reference point to a rampart? Yes I know what it is but most people just don’t care regardless of your prejudice. I’d bet good money that most people don’t realize that we only sing the first stanza of the Star Spangled Banner.

The Star-Spangled Banner

O! say can you see by the dawn’s early light
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight’s last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight,
O’er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets’ red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O! say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream:
‘Tis the star-spangled banner! Oh long may it wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more!
Their blood has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: ‘In God is our trust.’
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave

@SeventhSense I didn’t mean to be personal. When I said ‘you’ I was referring to those who just don’t care. Which is the problem with the world. But thats beside the point. It doesn’t matter if you care. If you’re old enough to comprehend the meaning of your words, then you should be able to decide if you say it or not. (Not personal-You were careless? Oh well…)

@Maximillian
So it’s not personal. It’s just the entire world doesn’t care. Okay I see now.
It must be a rare air up there on top of the cookie mountain

@SeventhSense Sigh. You miss the point. It doesn’t matter if you, or the entire fricken world, cares. What matters is that you pledged it.