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ETpro's avatar

Pat Robertson says Haiti Quake God's punishment for deal with devil that let the Hatian slave rebellion succeed 200 years ago. Are we to believe a loving God is that heartless?

Asked by ETpro (34605points) January 15th, 2010

“Something happened a long time ago in Haiti, and people might not want to talk about it,” Robertson said. “They were under the heel of the French. You know, Napoleon the third, or whatever. And they got together and swore a pact to the devil. They said, ‘we will serve you if you will get us free from the French.’

“True story. And so, the devil said, ‘OK, it’s a deal.’”

Never mind that the slave rebellion was actually under Napolean Bonaparte, not 44 years later under Napoleon III. It’s easy to forgive historical errors 200 years after the fact. What’s tougher to accept is a so-called man of God blaming the victims instead of calling for compassion and assistance for the people. Are we truly to believe that Robertson’s “God of Love” punishes people 200 years after the fact because they threw off the bonds of slavery? Perhaps Robertson’s God only looks favorably on those Blacks who know their place and accept slavery as their rightful lot.

http://www.theroot.com/views/pat-robertson-and-haiti-s-deal-devil

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83 Answers

Anon_Jihad's avatar

If any of this silly shit was true, it would show the devil being a far more compassionate being.

Shield_of_Achilles's avatar

If it makes them start acting with more honor and integrity, let them believe whatever they want.

syz's avatar

Isn’t Pat Robertson dead yet?!

Seek's avatar

So, the Devil frees people from slavery, and YHWH mass-murders their great-great-great-grandchildren with an earthquake.

I’ll take the Devil.

HTDC's avatar

Pat Robertson is just a sad, lonely, miserable person who was probably deprived of attention as a child. He’s just there to spark some controversy and just generally piss everyone off. To answer your question, yes, if god did exist s/he would be that heartless. God is far from loving if s/he allows people like him to walk this Earth.

Dr_Dredd's avatar

No, we’re supposed to believe that Pat Robertson is a lunatic.

whitenoise's avatar

If a pact was made with the devil, I am pretty sure Pat Robertson will have a copy of the deed.

Just a very distasteful example of religious stupidity.

ragingloli's avatar

Just shows what a nice guy my daddy, Satan, really is.

wonderingwhy's avatar

Sorta covered this yesterday, but to reiterate…

It’s Pat “Gays’ll bring hurricanes down on you, feminist lesbian witchcraft, nuke Foggy Bottom” Robertson…

it’s this latest one really any surprise? How can anyone seriously believe anything that comes out of his mouth… my cat makes more sense.

simpleD's avatar

We are to believe that Pat Robertson is hateful, racist, and ignorant of the facts. And his prime interest is lining his own pockets by preying on the weaknesses of his followers.

Ron_C's avatar

I suspect that Robertson is a reflection of his religious beliefs. Since he is vengeful and heartless, so must be his god.

FireMadeFlesh's avatar

Some people will sink to amazing depths for a little attention. Maybe he should have a little punishment for his deal with whichever media organisation broadcasted this hideous message.

whitenoise's avatar

@Ron_C who will take your bait?
But again, that is what this question seems to be designed for.

Cruiser's avatar

This loving God you refer to has done worse….a lot worse!

BoBo1946's avatar

Pat teaches Christianity from the Old Testament. It is about Hell and Damnation. Like the more positive approach taken by many preachers today ! People rebel against that kind of teaching. The judgemental approach taken by Pat and others, is not the way to win and influence friends.

hiphiphopflipflapflop's avatar

“In the Bullshit Department, a businessman can’t hold a candle to a clergyman. Cause I gotta tell you the truth, folks. When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims: religion. No contest! No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it.”

“Religion has actually convinced people that there’s an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever ’til the end of time! But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He’s all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can’t handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!”

George Carlin, You Are All Diseased, 1999 HBO Special

Dr_Dredd's avatar

@Ron_C I think you’re giving Robertson too much credit. He’s not a reflection of his beliefs/God, he’s just a fucking moron.

Ron_C's avatar

@whitenoise I’m not sure what you are getting at. What is my bait?

@Dr_Dredd I don’t think so. Roberson is a lawyer, has extensive holding in the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area and is a televangelist. It is not stupid. He may be senile, ignorant, heartless, greedy, and evil but he’s not stupid.

BoBo1946's avatar

@Ron_C could not agree more. Pat teaches all the negative stuff about Christianity. Perfer the positive approach myself Ron!

Ron_C's avatar

@BoBo1946 frankly I see all of these preachers on television and in mega-churches as having extreme character defects. They are not spreading religion as much as they are massaging their egos, making tons of money, and controlling people. I think most of them to all of this to a criminal level. Robertson is certainly at the top of this type of criminal enterprise.

Qingu's avatar

The god of the Bible is not loving.

If you disobey him, he will strike you with boils, blindness, and disease, cause another man to rape your wife, sell you into slavery, force you to eat the flesh of your children and the afterbirth of your miscarriages, and “take delight in your ruin and destruction,” to quote from Deuteronomy 28.

Christians like to ignore that Old Testament stuff, but Jesus constantly threatens you with hellfire and death in his parables, and the book of Revelation describes what will happen to unbelievers (prolonged torture and mass killings) in gruesome detail.

The god of the Bible is also the only deity on record to command his followers to commit genocide.

When Christians say this character is “loving” I am reminded of the “love” that battered women swear their husbands feel towards them.

Seek's avatar

@Qingu

And just look what he did to Job and Noah. That’s how he treats people he likes!

Ron_C's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr I always used Job as the basis for my answer when people ask me why I’m not religious. I tell them that if you are good your are tested like Job. If you are bad you are sent to hell. It seems that the best you can do is to go through life and not attract god’s attention.

BoBo1946's avatar

@Ron_C could not agree more…why lots of people are turned off about Christianity…some of the people on TV look SO EVIL…sorry, but i’m Chrisitan, but would never follow some of those folks that scream and holler and then stick their hand out…lol…hey Ron, a bunch of them went to prison…enough said…

stump's avatar

Pat Robertson is not a man of God. He knows as much about God as may cocker spaniel knows about astrophysics.

BoBo1946's avatar

@stump lots of TV evangelist have turned off people toward Christianity. It is a very confusing World out there. Hard to know the truth…very hard!

BoBo1946's avatar

did this universe, off the subject, just went bang..and there is was! when you see the beautiful world we live in…the instincts of our little animal friends and the way the human body is made…just a bang, there is was…never make me believe that!

Strauss's avatar

This “deal with the devil” was the same deal that gave us the Louisiana Purchase. I guess that’s Robertsons reason for relating both the Haiti Earthquake and the “Katrina” disaster in New Orleans to God’s wrath

Russell_D_SpacePoet's avatar

This whole debate about whether gawd is real or not is kind of like debating if Santa Claus is real or not. What are the chances that an omnipotent being made everything in 6 days and now waits to make you suffer eternally if you don’t show it proper respect and follow it’s rules? I would have to say the chances aren’t very good.
As far as Robertson, he is as evil as the Satan he preaches against. The scary thing is, Gawd and Satan are both constructs of man. So any of the good or evil we attribute to either Gawd Or Satan are reflections of what we are capable of as humans.

ragingloli's avatar

@BoBo1946
did this universe, off the subject, just went bang..and there is was! when you see the beautiful world we live in…the instincts of our little animal friends and the way the human body is made…just a bang, there is was…never make me believe that!
Good thing that no one believes that.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

Pat Robertson is why American Christians are considered the trailer trash of Christianity by the rest ot the Christian world.

Qingu's avatar

@BoBo1946, you don’t understand the big bang theory at all.

And the “instincts of our little animal friends” evolved from countless billions of their corpses. Most of our little animal friends are extinct. The ones that survived are the ones with the instincts you’re talking about. Some of which include tapeworms whose instincts are to burrow into the insides of human children.

BoBo1946's avatar

@Qingu wrong…taught World History for 11 years…but, that is cool!

Qingu's avatar

World history covers the big bang? Must have been a long syllabus.

Here is why you don’t understand. You are thinking of the big bang as this moment on a timeline. Like this:

1:00—nothing.
2:00—nothing
3:00—nothing
3:34 p.m. on a Tuesday—BOOM! The big bang occurs.

This is nonsense and is not what the actual theory say. It fails to take into account relativity, which proves that space and time are part of the same “fabric.” This means that there is no such thing as “time” outside or before the universe. The big bang didn’t just “happen” out of nowhere. There is no point in time which the universe has not existed.

The big bang is the earliest point of time like the north pole is the northernmost point on Earth’s surface.

If you’re actually interested in learning more about the big bang, I’d suggest reading Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time. I’m also always happy to answer questions about it.

ragingloli's avatar

@BoBo1946
Sorry, but if you believe that ‘something exploded and then everything was there as we see it’ then, no, you do not understand the Big Bang theory, because that is not what the theory says, not to mention that you do not know that the Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the origin of life or the evolution of species, regardless of how long you taught anything.

Seek's avatar

My World History classes started at around the dawn of civilisation. Anything prior to that was the property of the Earth Sciences teacher.

Just saying.

Qingu's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr perhaps the problem is that the world history class he taught dates the formation of the universe at around the time of the dawn of civilization…

Well, Maya civilization to be precise. The Sumerians and Harrappans had been around for some time before 4,000 B.C.

Ria777's avatar

Are we to believe a loving God is that heartless?

if you believe the Old Testament, yes.

stranger_in_a_strange_land's avatar

Pat Robertson doesn’t want his followers sending money to Haiti. He wants it all.

Pazza's avatar

OMG!.....
I think Pat Robinson is God punishing us for believing in George Bush.

Pazza's avatar

Pat Robertson is just another tool of the Bilderberger’s.

Seek's avatar

@Qingu

You (and the History teacher) might fing this interesting. It got me a chuckle.

Ron_C's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr those poor Sumerians it must have been very annoying. To make it worse, the new creations escaped their cage and started to really bother their neighbors.

Pazza's avatar

@Qingu
Big Bang Theory – clues in the name.
Theory Of Relativity – again, clues in the name.

Neither are ‘PROOF’ of anything, they are assumed to be factual.

Red shift is the only evidence of ‘The Big Bang Theory’ and this is not conclusive.

(as far as I am aware!) :-)

Ron_C's avatar

@Pazza you clearly don’t know the difference between a scientific theory and an ordinary theory.so here is a link to explain it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory

ETpro's avatar

@Pazza You are using the word, theory in layman’s terms yet applying it to science where it has a very different meaning. Gravity is both a theory and a fact. We all (those who are sane) agree that gravity is a fact, because we know if we drop something it will fall, if we step off a ledge, we will fall. We see this happening every day. We see the moon held in orbit by earth’s gravitational pull, and our earth orbiting the sun due to its gravitational pull.

But Gravity is also a theory. We can use the theory of gravity to predict things, like how fast must a rocket travel to put a satellite into permanent orbit or how fast must it go to completely escape earth’s gravity. We can calculate how fast a meteor will fall to earth. We can check the validity of the theory by making calculations of what will happen if it is true, then observing to see if they really do happen.

The same goes for the big bang. The pattern of red shift was predicted FROM the big-bang theory, not the other way around. We observed, and it held true. Those objects closest to the central point of the universe have the least red shift. The further out an objet is, the greater its red shift, meaning it is moving away from the center point more rapidly. The Big Bang also predicts a remnant background radiation and once instruments sensitive enough to see it were available, it’s there just as predicted.

To equate scientific theory and personal hunch, one must either be truly ignorant of the scientific method or have some personal agenda that requires that all our best understanding of the nature of the universe be set aside to make room for their pet belief.

Ron_C's avatar

@ETpro my experience with the Intelligent Design crowd and their brother Creationists is that they like to use big scientific words to impress the brethren and themselves. It makes their fairy tales seem rational.

ragingloli's avatar

@Ron_C
They also brag with their “doctor” titles (that they got from diploma mills) to give them a flair of authority. Kent Hovind for example, who also was a teacher at some private schools and who has equally no clue about anything in science, including and especially the Theory of Evolution, has a “doctor” title from a diploma mill.
The first words of his ‘doctoral dissertation’ are ”Hello, my name is Kent Hovind.”.
I think that says all about his qualification.

TexasDude's avatar

Pat Robertson is a big fat irrelevant douche.

lynfromnm's avatar

Pat Robertson, the self proclaimed ear of the Christian God, is not exactly a Caribbean scholar. Therefore I feel no regret about ignoring his pompous pronouncements.

BoBo1946's avatar

@Qingu if you took World History in high school, there is a chapter on the Big Bang theory. Read enough about it. Thanks for the info.

Where you suggesting that I was not tellling the truth about teaching World History? If you documentation, will provide same!

BoBo1946's avatar

@ragingloli loll.. you have your opinion and i’ve mine…don’t agree with the theory at all! You will know someday! How would you know what i know and don’t know? ESP?

BoBo1946's avatar

@Qingu excuse me, if you need documentation, will provide same! pdworkin would object to my poor grammar!

Qingu's avatar

@BoBo1946, I have never heard of any world history class that deals with cosmology. And I work in the field of education. What high school did you teach at?

BoBo1946's avatar

@Qingu

Look, I no expert on the “big bang,” and doubt if you are either…have a college degree with a major in History. If you don’t believe that, too bad!

Qingu's avatar

I don’t understand why you feel that is a valid response to what I said.

I’m guessing you didn’t teach at a public high school since you typically need a masters. Did you teach history at a private school? Home school?

What I’m actually curious about here is whether or not you believe the earth is 6,000 years old… which would explain why you’re teaching the big bang in a world history course.

BoBo1946's avatar

look, you want to be argumentative….stated my case, not going defend my education to you. Go find someone else to harass!

filmfann's avatar

Pat Robertson is a stupid ass for saying such things. He is an embarassment for Christians, and Christianity.
Not all Christians are dicks. Please know people like Pat Robertson don’t speak for many of us.

avvooooooo's avatar

@Ron_C @Qingu @stump @Seek_Kolinahr @ETpro @ragingloli

Bravo/a.

@BoBo1946 Again, people telling you that you’re wrong when you are is not an attack nor is it harassment. And no, I didn’t follow you here. I started following this question shortly after it as written and haven’t taken the time to go all the way through it until now.

Pazza's avatar

@Ron_C – Thanks for the link.

Still confused as to your point though:
Wiki says – “In the sciences, a scientific theory (also called an empirical theory) comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena.[1]

A scientific theory can be considered a deductive theory, in that its content could be expressed in some formal system of logic in which its elementary rules are taken as axioms. In a deductive theory, any sentence which is a logical consequence of one or more of the axioms is also a sentence of that theory.[2]

In the humanities, one finds theories whose subject matter does not (only) concern empirical data, but rather ideas. Such theories are in the realm of philosophical theories as contrasted with scientific theories. A philosophical theory is not necessarily scientifically testable through experiment.”

So to summerise wiki is saying that the scientific community comes to logical conclusions based on observation with data to back up that observation. Ok very logical. But, unless someone can show other concrete evidence of an expanding universe, not just red shift, then the big bang theory is not a fact, and the laymans term for theory still stands.

There is evidence however, which contradicts the red shift evidence. There have been observations of apparent proto-galaxies / coliding galaxies which should have the same red shift but have entirely different red shifts.

Also, it would seem to me that if the red shift evidence was to be accepted that the age of the universe would have been averaged out at a figure a lot tighter than ‘between 10 and 20 billion years’.

I did find it interesting how the scientific community calls ‘rules’ ‘laws’.

@ETpro
“You are using the word, theory in layman’s terms yet applying it to science where it has a very different meaning. Gravity is both a theory and a fact. We all (those who are sane) agree that gravity is a fact, because we know if we drop something it will fall, if we step off a ledge, we will fall. We see this happening every day. We see the moon held in orbit by earth’s gravitational pull, and our earth orbiting the sun due to its gravitational pull.”

First off the word theory has only one definition, unless your a member of the the law society speaking legalese, in which case it could very well mean anything.

Gravity is an observable phenomena which gives rise to an apparent attraction and a quantifiable acceleration. there is no proof that this is a ‘pull’ and not as I see it, a ‘push’ by the energy field that is ‘space’ into an ever decreasing density of ‘space’ that envelopes matter. So that whenever two lumps of matter get close enough, space pushes the two lumps of matter closer together.

Yes us sane people do agree that GRAVITY is a fact, its what causes it thats the mystery, a mystery that has a THEORY that tries to EXPLAIN it. =p

I do hope my LAYMAN capital letters didn’t confuse you~

Pazza's avatar

@ETpro
Ps. whats wrong with pet beliefs?
Are you suggesting that all religous people are insane?

That would be trully ignorant.

ETpro's avatar

@Pazza There are multiple dictionary definitions of the word, “theory”.

the·o·ry [thee-uh-ree, theer-ee]
-noun, plural -ries.
1.—a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein’s theory of relativity.
2.—a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3.—Mathematics. a body of principles, theorems, or the like, belonging to one subject: number theory.
4.—the branch of a science or art that deals with its principles or methods, as distinguished from its practice: music theory.
5.—a particular conception or view of something to be done or of the method of doing it; a system of rules or principles.
6.—contemplation or speculation.
7.—guess or conjecture.

When we talk about the big-bang theory, we’re talking about meaning number one. When someone postulates that The Great Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe 6,000 years ago from a left-over can of Chef Boyardee Spaghetti they are using the 7th meaning.

We know how gravity acts via Einstein’s theory of General Relativity. That theory has now been put to the test in numerous applications. Your global positioning system. would suffer from an accumulating error, getting more inaccurate day by day if the satellite and earth clocks were not adjusted according to the gravitational rules of the General Theory of Relativity to stay synchronized.

So again, you are substituting a hunch (definition 7) for a scientific theory (definition 1) and equating the two.

Scientists start from a hunch too. They call it a postulate. They observe some phenomenon then predict why that might be happening and what they might observe among other phenomena if their hunch is right. They observe to see if the other phenomena in the real world behave the way the postulate predicts. If enough observations validate their postulate, they then develop and carefully document experiments to further test that should come out in a very predictable way of their postulate is right. If the postulate passes that muster, they then write a paper describing their postulate and the experimentation and predictions behind it. This paper is circulated for peer review and every scientists worth his/her salt who hasn’t thought of this postulate himself/herself sees if they can replicate the experimental results. What they really love to do is find an experiment that proves the postulate is wrong. Only when nobody succeeds in punching a hole in it does the postulate graduate to being called a theory.

That’s a far cry from coming up with an idea in your den and proclaiming that you’ve got a new theory on how gravity works. But your push-not-pull is a fascinating postulate. Space wants to be space, and therefore pushes anything out of its openness into areas of higher density. I like it. But it doesn’t square with Newtonian Gravity and with Einstein’s General Relativity theories.

Finally, I didn’t mean to imply that pet beliefs are wrong. I have plenty of my own. What I was getting at is that we should recognize the difference between pet beliefs and discoveries that have withstood the rigors of the scientific method and survived.

Ron_C's avatar

@Pazza to simplify things, a scientific theory can be tested. If it passes the tests it stays valid. If it doesn’t it changes to encompass new information. Scientific theories work in the real world and are tested constantly. I studied electronics theory in school. So far if you measure current through a resister you can calculate the voltage. You can also measure the voltage to check your calculations. It is not a law because physics is a deep subject but it works so well it is in effect a law.

Conversational theories are almost never tested or based on fact, It is just an idea about why something happened. So that’s the simplest way I can explain it.

ETpro's avatar

@Pazza One other thing. The age of the Universe has been pinned down now to 13.7 billion years old. The wide range of estimates predated more soild evidence collected by orbiting telescopes in 2003.

Jeruba's avatar

And here’s what the devil says about Pat Robertson.

ETpro's avatar

@Jeruba The last line of that Letter from Satan got the heartiest laugh I’ve had this week! Thanks for a delightful truth.

Pazza's avatar

@ETproThe Great Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe 6,000 years ago from a left-over can of Chef Boyardee Spaghetti they are using the 7th meaning.

LMAO would that be like ‘God’s great banana skin :-) I just googled that spaghetti, have you got a tin in your cuboard?

We know how gravity acts via Einstein’s theory of General Relativity
Do we know, or is that just “1.—a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein’s theory of relativity.”
Wouldn’t it be better to say that at this present time, that ‘Einstein’s theory of General Relativity’ is just a ‘best fit’ mathematical theory that best describes the observable phenomena of gravity as described in definition 1?
Doesn’t this theory state that space-time is a two dimensional plane, and doesn’t this explanation break down when you add a second object with an orbit that doesn’t reside on this plane?
Also doesn’t general relativity discard/ignore the posibility of the so called ‘zero point’ field? (personally, I can’t see how this field can’t exist).

Space wants to be space, and therefore pushes anything out of its openness into areas of higher density
I would have postulated that matter displaces space and creates an area of lower density space around it so that when another object of matter passes near by and the two areas of less dense space overlap, the higher density space on the opposite sides pushes the objects together. That is to say that matter repels space which could suggest why its somewhat intangible since everything we would use to detect it would be made from some form of matter and thus repel it.

Below is something I wrote whilst trying to get my head around gravity (bearing in mind I don’t know the language of mathematics or how to apply it)

“If you try to visualize a ball, and surrounding that ball is a field of energy which
stretches out enveloping the whole surface area of the ball, kind of like Earth’s atmosphere, closest to the ball the energy is at its thickest, and as you travel away from the balls surface the energy gets thinner and thinner just like the Earth’s atmosphere until eventually at its outer limit it is infinitely thin.

Now, drop the ball into the sea of energy in space as you would a ball into water, the ball now creates a pocket, a hole where is resides. Now imagine if you can the energy field around the ball also creating a pocket in space pushing the space further away from the surface of the ball, but as the energy field enveloping the ball becomes ever thinner, its ability to displace space diminishes, and in the thinner densities of the balls outer energy field space starts to creep in. To picture this concept, imagine when you run a bath of hot water, at the top of the bath the water is at its hottest, but as you push your hand deeper into the water it becomes cooler, but this cooling isn’t instantaneous, it is gradual. I suppose you could liken the energy field around the ball as the hot water, and the spacial energy field as the cold water, eventually you will reach a point where hot water is now at its coolest, so cool that it’s now the same temperature as the cold water. The only difference between the water analogy and the energy field analogy is that instead of temperature change, there would be pressure (or density) change.

Carrying this concept on further take two balls and drop them into the spacial energy field, where the two outer reaches of the balls energy fields lay is what science calls an ‘Event Horizon’, the point at which the densities of the spacial field and the balls energy field start to change. Now push the balls closer together until the two ‘Event Horizons’ touch. At this point if you left the balls alone, they would stay put and not move. However the instant you push the balls past each others ‘Event Horizon’ the spacial
field becomes less dense. The higher densities of space either side of the two balls now pushes them into the less dense space in the middle of the two balls creating an apparent attraction between the two objects. This apparent attraction becomes an acceleration as the ever decreasing density of space between the two balls is encroached upon until eventually the two balls collide, creating the visual effect of gravity.”

You could postulate that this is the reason why liquids seemingly get ‘sucked-up’ by pourous materials, or even what makes electricity flow from one point to another. It would also seemingly describe magnetism or lightning, or even why galaxies are accelerating away from each other (in my head at least).

So to summerise, this would be why I was saying the big bang theory isn’t a fact, its just the currently excepted belief backed up by the maths that would seem to explain it, that theory isn’t fact, and those seven definitions do not define theory as being synonymous with fact. So gravity is a fact but so far we only have theories to explain what causes it. I don’t mean to be disrespectful to Einstein, and I know it sounds really really arrogant, but I like my theory better, it just makes more sense in my head, although I do see how I could also just as easily be insane or just plain old dilusional.

One other thing. The age of the Universe has been pinned down now to 13.7 billion years old. The wide range of estimates predated more soild evidence collected by orbiting telescopes in 2003.

I stand corrected (though thats not hard haha). Did this age come from observing a large quantity of red-shift’s over a large area and then averaging them out?

Anyway, to put this into context, I wonder what Pat Robertson would have to say about red-shift!........

@Ron_C – Thanks, point now understood :-)
Though I would add that what I was trying to get at was that although we can calculate, resistance etc, would it be fair to say we still don’t know why electrons travel around a circuit that is to say that although we know that EMF causes electrons to travel from poisitive to negative (or visa-versa, I can never remember) we don’t know what EMF is?
And would it also be fair to say that although it is a fact that we can measure and calculate this phenomenon, we can only postulate with current knowlege as to why we can create and manipulate said phenomenon?
hense my theory is not fact rant

ETpro's avatar

@Pazza As I understand it, Einstein was not saying that space time is flat and 2 dimensional, but was using that construct to further refine how gravity behaves. In his mind, there were an infinite number of these flat planes in every direction. But I am far from a theoretical physicist and could well have just grasped that wrongly.

To your point of the definitions offered being nothing more than our best current understanding, I heartily agree. For now, it works till something better comes along. It’s even good enough to keep our GPS systems amazingly accurate. But would it be good enough for GPS traveling light years? “Frankly, Scarlet, I don’t give a damn.”

When we dive into zero-point theory, my mind really starts to fry. It has to be, but it can’t be. Maybe the Plank Scale cuts off the apparent infinity. It’s among the most fascinating of unresolved problems in physics.

With further explanation, I love your space abhors solids postulate. It’s fascinating. even possibly right. I do not have the expertise needed to either challenge it or figure out how to test it but perhaps someone reading this will. I’ll be happy to buy you a beer if they do, whichever way the answer comes out. :-)

Re the age of the Universe, see this.

I didn’t really post my rant about the difference between a scientific theory and a hunch because I was certain you are wrong about gravity. I mostly wanted to establish, for the record, that when creationist and other Luddites among us pooh-pooh science by saying it’s just a theory, the have in mind the 7th meaning of the word and that’s not at all what a scientific theory is.

Ron_C's avatar

@ETpro “would it be fair to say we still don’t know why electrons travel around a circuit that is to say that although we know that EMF causes electrons to travel from positive to negative” I can confuse the issue further. In transistor theory, electrons gravitate towards holes in the semiconductor material. You can postulate the the electrons move toward the holes or that the holes travel toward the electrons. Regardless of your position on the matter, semiconductors work to amplify, the effects of small currents over large and input/output calculations for the circuits are very accurated in predicting the results. The point is that we don’t know or directly observe what happens in a transistor but the theory provide extremely accurate design for semiconductor circuits.

I used to design with electron tubes also and their operation was much easier to visualize but again, just a theory.

ETpro's avatar

@Ron_C Exactly. We use valuable constructs even though we know they are incomplete understandings. If the fact they are incomplete led us to stop using them, we would essentially shut down, frustrating the will to survive.

I can intellectually conceive that space (stepping outside space-time) must be infinite. But I can’t get my head around that. In my finite mind, somewhere there must be an outer boundary of space, a wall. But there would have to be space (infinite nothingness) beyond the wall. Even if space-time curves back into itself in some construct beyond 4 dimensions, it then must hang in nothingness. But what could contain so much nothingness? Obviously nothing could. But yet it must.

If there was a big bang, what made that happen? Why? Again, stepping outside space-time (there was no before the creation of space-time in this universe’s terms) what was before the big bang, and where did that come from. Who made it? If it had a maker, who made the maker. Again, my finite mind—everything has a maker—crashes head on into the absurdity of infinity.

There are an infinite number of ways I can run into the impossibility of infinity. That thought even boggled Einstein’s mind.

Ron_C's avatar

@ETpro it’s funny that you brought up the way you think of the infinite universe. My wife has a unique prospective. She thinks that if you look deep enough you would see complete populated worlds inside an atom. She also thinks that if you could look at our universe from a distance you would see that we are just an atom inside some giant’s coffee table. The same would apply to the giant.

ETpro's avatar

@Ron_C That would be infinitely possible… at least it would if infinity were not both necessary and impossible.

Pazza's avatar

@Ron_C
@ETpro
I saw a programme the other day on british tv about chaos theory that called into question our very existance and how order can come from chaos. In the programme the maths boffins had found that chaos on a very small scale inevitably leads to patterns and though I didn’t understand any of the math, they used arteries in the human body, tree branches and water ways on earth viewed from space to show just how simple formula with feedback built in lead to these patterns.

What got me thinking was that these feed back formulas look like fractal formulas, but from what I understand fractal formulas need an initial input to get them going. When you look at the pictorial representation of a fractal pattern you can zoom in and out, you can zoom in to infinity, and then out to infinity, so my thought was almost identical to Ron_C’s wife about being mere atoms in a giants world, maybe this whole universe has an actual boundary, and its just one atom in the giants table. I think the writers of Men In Black must have had the same thought lol.

One other question in my mind is, what was the initial zoom factor? and what ramifications would this have if God existed?

Maybe thats why God doesn’t give a shit, because we’re mere dust particles inside an atom in God’s coffee table.

Ron_C's avatar

@Pazza very good. I have thought a good bit about “the first cause”, the beginning of time etc… My wife may turn out to be one of the great philosophers of our time.

What you seem to be saying is that all “god” had to do was begin the process, like starting the big bang. I have always said that I don’t believe in a personal god involved in our prayers and in everyday life. I have no objection to calling whatever started the big bang god.

It is clear that once the process was started, god is not necessary. Maybe, like the Buddhists believe, when we die our essence goes back to the collective, godhead, I think they call it. I don’t believe that we retain a consciousness, but our atoms and maybe our subatomic essence will be recycled.

ETpro's avatar

What was the original question? :-)

Ron_C's avatar

@ETpro we do stray off a bit. The last time I reprimanded, so far I’m clear. The question wanted to know if god was as heartless as described by Pat Robertson. I expect most of what that creepy preacher/lawyer has to say involves contribution to his sham religious and charity organizations. There comes a point that money isn’t as important as the power it gains for you. Robertson has reached that point. The only good thing is that he is old and will die soon. It will be fun to see the jackals descend on his empire to split it up. I just feel sorry for the people he has cheated out of the money they can il-afford

ETpro's avatar

@Ron_C I understand. The man has overtones of a cult leader, even to the point of having imagined that God told him to run for President. If that was so, it must have been the Lord’s intention to show him how few votes he could garner. :-)

Seek's avatar

I seem to remember someone else who ran for President because “God told him to”. Unfortunately, that delusional moron actually won.

ETpro's avatar

@Seek_Kolinahr Good point. What made the outcome so different for George W. Bush si his God seems to have been the God of political operatives, Karl “Turd Blossom” Rove.

Ron_C's avatar

@ETpro it is strange how life imitates the Internet. I am working a project in Illinois and one of the guys said that I looked like a republican. I was insulted and asked why he thought that way. He said, “well you don’t like Obama”. I explained, no, I’m disappointed by him but I voted for him and contributed to his campaign.

I think that really he thought that I was a republican because I am an old white guy with a haircut and expense account.

ETpro's avatar

Gad, I’m more Republican than you. I’m an old white guy with a haircut and my own business. :-)

Ron_C's avatar

@ETpro I think that there are a lot of republican looking guys here. I think it was racial profiling. The guy that told me that was an Amreican citizen but was born in Mexico. I think I should lodge a complaint with is HR department.

BoBo1946's avatar

ummm..still talking about P.R.!

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