So - now that the Republican candidate has won in Massachussetts, is health care reform dead in the water?

He’s dead, Jim.

No no no no! Health care reform is not dead!

Here’s what usually happens when a big bill needs to be passed:

1. The House passes version A
2. The Senate passes version B
3. House and Senate leaders get together to merge versions A and B and create version C
4. The House passes version C
5. The Senate passes version C
6. The President signs version C into law

Now, we’ve obviously hit a roadblock here. Without a filibuster-proof majority, step 5 cannot happen. However, with a little bit of alteration to the system, we can still pass reform. Right now, we’re at step 3. The House and Senate have both passed their own versions of health care reform. The only requirement for the bill to go to the president’s desk is for both houses to pass the same bill. So, due to the circumstances, the bills will likely not be merged. Instead, the House will likely pass version B (that is, the version that the Senate has already passed) and send it to Obama.

Reform is not dead!

No, it just means that Obama will jawbone Pelosi into passing the shitty Senate Bill, which will guarantee child-proof caps on your prescriptions for just a small surcharge.

I wish that instead of strong-arming the House into passing the Senate bill, Barack would strong-arm the Senate into passing the House bill before Brown gets seated… Neither is perfect but at least the House bill includes the public option.

Is anyone else sick to death of all this filibustering bullshit? Way to break the system so that literally nothing can get done, GOP.

The House bill is far superior, but Nelson and Lieberman will join the Repugs to filibuster it.

@pdworkin Aughhhh I hate Lieberman so much. Maybe if Obama just slaps him.

Yes, thank God. There will be many Dems who now fear for their own position and the whole bill will fall apart.

Well explained lefteh, and I hope you’re right! If a bill passes, it won’t be perfect; it may not even be very good, given all the compromises. But I believe it’s the right step forward, and kudos to the president for making such a tough issue it top priority.

Steny Hoyer (House majority leader) today: “Something’s better than nothing.”

The idiots in Washington can’t accept that both bills are crap.

Rather than trying to shine-up a piece of crap, they need either, to start over and create something that will work, or scrap this chrome plated pork barrel magnet.

IF YOU CAN’T PASS A BILL WITHOUT BUYING VOTES, THEN YOU CAN’T PASS A BILL.

Put a fork in it…the spot light is on Obama now and he won’t dare risk another embarrassment any time soon.

Sit back and watch the spin damage control….pass the popcorn>>

I dont think its dead per se, and in the end I dont think it matters, we screwed the pooch so hard with this whole thing screw it.

Also WTF how in the hell did we not look at tort reform with all of this?

@DrBill The way the system is right now, nothing can pass without buying votes. The system is broken. If the GOP weren’t filibustering every damn vote (which is not the point of the filibuster) we wouldn’t have any of these insane buyouts in the bill, nor would one man (Lieberman) be able to change huge parts of the bill to suit his every whim. I don’t like the bill very much, but starting over will result in inaction for these same reasons, and this is better than nothing.

I hope so. Maybe now we can get a version that isn’t going to mess everything up.

@fireinthepriory

In a perfect world (ignoring we would not need politicians) every bill would be without riders or payoffs.

I pray so, I proudly marched to vote for Scott Brown today, feeling oddly strange that my vote would actually matter, it would actually decide something. Today’s election is likely the only time I’ll ever vote and know that my opinion mattered. For once Democracy worked.

So, you helped to elect a misogynistic, violent, lying, sneaky, narcissistic, homophobic, racist empty suit! You must be very, very proud, indeed.

I wish some of you DRONES would grow a pair of balls before you spurt your thoughts.

Ugh. I am embarrassed to be from MA. It was snowing all day and the roads were a mess, I’m sure many people didn’t get out and vote for that reason.

Fucking red sox fans…

@Tomfafa Hey, would you consider contributing your opinion in a way that will aid this discussion? Thanks.

@breedmitch Hey! We Sox fans voted for Coakley, all the way!!

I think that this election show just how stupid and lazy Americans can be. They are actually willing to give up health care and vote for a candidate that promises to be a tool of the health insurance and drug companies. All of Mass. should be ashamed of themselves.

This election also gives cover to almost half of the democrats that really didn’t want to give up the big insurance and drug money. Now they can say that “the Republicans blocked us’. This is U.S. politics at its worst and shows just how gullible Americans can be! I really believe that the democrats gave this election to the republicans on purpose.

@pdworkin I am under no illusion towards Scott Brown innocence. He’s a no good scumbag. But he was vital to throwing a wrench in one of the most horrific pieces of legislation to ever move through Congress. For that, he was the far lesser or two evils. I’m sick of leftist and their corporation pandering. Government isn’t supposed to be about big business and that’s all it’s been about since the Congress has become controlled by the left.

@Anon_Jihad ”leftist corporation pandering”??
Good thing the right doesn’t do that~

@Anon_Jihad “I’m sick of leftist and their corporation pandering. Government isn’t supposed to be about big business and that’s all it’s been about since the Congress has become controlled by the left.” It is funny that the left thinks the right panders to big business and the left thinks the right does. In truth both do. They have taken an idea that would have helped all Americans and small businesses and perverted it beyond all redemption. Then to top it off, big business proved that it could get ordinary Americans to vote against their own best interest by electing Scott Brown. This Brown guy is all style, no substance. Then just for good measure he promises to help stop all progress in health care and job creation. Like I said before, Americans are just stupid, stupid, stupid.

@breedmitch The right is far from innocent of that, but they also don’t take it to the extreme that leftists do. Think about how the government would be building the healthcare system? By literally allowing monopolies, helping to build them, and destroying the legitimacy of our dollar even further by destroying our ability to vote with it, by giving us no options. Monopolies will fix nothing, only an open free market can bring about the quality in health care at the prices we seek.

@Ron_C Why should ALL Mass. residents be ashamed? I went out in the snow and voted for Coakley, and dragged everyone I could with me. I’m disappointed that Coakley won the primary, since I don’t think she was the best choice (and neither did the state, apparently), I’m disappointed in Brown voters for being idiots, I’m disappointed in those who voted for Joe Kennedy just because this race was always tight and we really needed every vote we could get, and I’m disappointed in those who didn’t vote. These groups of people should be ashamed, not all of us. Those of us who voted for Coakley are too busy mourning the loss of our state’s reputation to be ashamed.

@Ron_C Healthcare reform dying is beyond what I dream. The fact that he can aid in that alone made him worth voting for. Coakley was unwilling to fight for me and many others I know. So I voted for the only sod who would, even though I dislike him.

@Anon_Jihad Hmm…you’ve totally convinced me.~

Where is the god damned Socialism I was promised over a year ago?!?

@breedmitch Hopefully we won’t have to see it. You make think it a joke and not all that bad, but others see socialism as tyranny, and so do I. For as long as my vote can in anyway protect my rights, I’ll vote for whomever will protect them.

@sliceswiththings you are right, I said that in the heat of passion because I just read the news article. Of course there were people, like yourself ,that did the right thing. I am more pissed at the democratic party. The took what was almost a sure thing, found the least appealing candidate that didn’t seem to care whether she won or lost, then didn’t insist that she “soup up” her campaign even when they saw Brown making inroads using vast out of state support.

@Anon_Jihad I agree that Coakley was not very attractive but you may have punished the country because the candidate that could really help improve the system is a shit.

We may all pay because of the stupidity of the Massachusetts Democratic Party and snippy voters.

There is an amazing american industry that is seeing growth even during these times of reccession… and it is the best in the world! That’s why (in my opinion) obama wants to control it. If there are people who have no access to health care… give it to them! Why have a government bureaucracy take it over? Why involve the IRS in our health care? What has the government done efficiently before… why give washington control over our health care? Set me straight!

@pdworkin
So you’re an Olberman parrot?
Misogynistic? I’ll admit that I don’t know much about the guy, but most people aren’t. More likely a Pelosi hater, if I’ve got your sources right.
Violent? No more than the rest of us. Or are all of your thoughts sweetness and light?
Lying? If true, this comes with the territory, unfortunately
Sneaky? See “Lying.”
Narcissistic? I’d like some examples.
Homophobic? No more so than is accepted by nearly half the country. A Conservative value FTW!
Racist? That’s a common, and typically inaccurate, Leftist accusation of the right. For some reason, many on the Left cannot fathom the existence of motives beyond race. It still baffles me.
Empty suit! Yet to be determined.

@Nullo It is always amusing to watch someone try to defend the indefensible. That guy is a piece of shit. If you don’t agree now, give him six months in office, then come back and post your opinion.

@pdworkin
Could you source some of his alleged unworthiness and let me judge his crappiness for myself?
I’m thousands of miles away from MA, and have my own wicked Senator to hate; to me, the guy is little more than a sabot in that viper-infested arm-twisting machine that is the Democratic Congress.

@lefteh There’s another option (sub-option) you didn’t list:

The senate passes the merged bill C before Brown is sworn in. Apparently there is a short window of time, and if everything gets rushed in, a merged bill could still be in the works.

Sorry to interrupt the argument.

@Nullo Try to find his victory speech somewhere and watch the whole thing, including the part where he pimps out his daughters and rambles on about basketball. Then you will understand whom you are supporting at such a distance. He is not destined to wreath the Senate in garlands of dignity.

@Tomfafa are you seriously saying that the health insurance industry is the best in the world? It is true that they are successful because they have a forced demand and monopoly powers to price their products. They also have their pick of the best customers and the ability to discontinue customers that cost them money.

In the mean time they create nothing, cure no one, and victimize their customers and suppliers while skimming 20% off the top. Congress is now in the process of mandating that the 50 million without insurance get on board.

I guess as a business model it is even better than vertical marketing but other than themselves, who is helped?

@pdworkin
Just did. Looks fine to me.
I wouldn’t call that “pimping”, he’s acknowledging his family’s contributions, thanking them for their support, and complimenting them. Nothing wrong with that, is there?
The basketball thing (and the truck thing too) is a touchpoint for the audience, something that they can relate to and something that interests him. It’s related to Obama’s “Beer at the Whitehouse” stunt, or calling Kanye West a jackass.
I think that what you really don’t like is that he’s Republican and maybe conservative.

@Ron_C
There are a lot of health insurance companies, Ron, ergo no monopoly. A greater threat is the so-called “non-portability” of the policies; insurance companies are more or less regional (a person in California can’t get insured by a company in Maryland), which hinders the ability of the market to regulate prices.
It is not the business of insurance to create or cure. It is the business of insurance to make money. And it is the age-old right of a business to refuse service to a customer that cannot pay his bill. This shouldn’t surprise you.
Health insurance isn’t a basic human right, after all.

If that speech doesn’t convince you that he is a fuckin’ moron, you have lower standards than I ever imagined.

I admire, honor and even revere actual conservatives. Barry Goldwater was my muse. Wm. F Buckley was irrefutable. This schmuck posed naked for Cosmo. Come on, really.

Hopefully, not dead, but momentarily delayed. Massachusetts voters should be ashamed of themselves. They relied on fear and self-loathing and essentially voted to retain the lobbyist-backed, corporate-funded senate that we’ve all come to know and detest. I only hope that we don’t have to say a final goodbye to any real reform or forward progress in the foreseeable future. The fear-monger’s derision has begun anew.. If I believed in God, this is probably the point where I’d feel obligated to ask God to help us.

@Nullo there are about 7 health insurance companies trading under a multitude of names. Price collusion is part of the business model.

@Nullo it is distressing what you say about health not being a human right. The whole medical system was instituted to improve the health and reduce suffering for everyone, not just those that could pay. Since almost all health insurance is tied to the employer, you are saying that the unemployed have no right to complain if they get sick or die because they couldn’t afford medical care. I see you agree with the Republican, “don’t get sick if you can’t pay and die quick and as cheaply as possible.” I guess that will cure the unemployment and population problems. Kind of social Darwinism. Great plan.

The bottomline in the new healthcare program is to provide 20 million illegal immigrants with health insurance at our expense. the program requires everyone to have healthcare insurance, but i promise you that the illegals will not abide by the law. they have a good thing going now at emergency rooms where they receive free healthcare, so why should they pay anything? about the only tax they pay is on a can of beer. i have dealt with the illegals on the lowest level….on the streets. they work, pay no taxes and send their money out of the country, which is illegal. once again, you and i are going to have to foot the bill. i realize that many legal citizens do not and cannot affored healthcare and i am for whatever it takes for them to be covered. just be legally in America and live by the rules here.

@john65pennington – I don’t know which bill you’ve been reading, but the one I read says absolutely nothing about providing illegal immigrants with free healthcare. FOX News strikes again.

@john65pennington everything that I saw and that Obama said shows that illegal immigrants were specifically excluded from government supported health care.

I don’t like illegal immigrants because they undercut American jobs. They are paid almost slave wages and exploited by their employers. I fully support extreme penalties for their employers up to and including seizing their entire business or homes. When they find that they are unemployable in this country they go home. This down turn has shown that as the jobs dry up, so does the problem.

Throwing out the baby with the bathwater, like they did in Ma. helps no one and only helps a industry that is a drain on our economy and detriment to our health. The irony is that one of the objections is that if the government takes over, we will have rationing. We have had he since manage care came into existence. Who here has not been denied payment for treatment. I know I have and was given no reason for it.

@Ron_C
I was talking about health insurance not being a basic right, Ron. You seem to have a tendency to confuse health insurance with other things.

@pdworkin
How was that speech supposed to convince me of the guy’s incompetence? Seriously? He articulated pretty well, he didn’t keep his eyes glued on the teleprompter, and he said all the nice sorts of things that a person is supposed to say when winning a Senate seat. He’s no Churchill or MLK (or I should say, his speechwriters aren’t), but not many are.
Your line about “actual conservatives” reminds me of the “black best friend” line that gets dropped every now and then. Is he an actual conservative? He’s more conservative than Coakley, and I suppose that’s the best I can hope for in a state like Massachusetts.
I’ll rephrase my closer: I think that what you really don’t like is that he’s not particularly liberal. It’s a perfectly natural reaction; I feel much the same way about Obama.

I think Jon Stewart sums it up best.

agree with @lefteh…..it still can be done, but more compromises will be necessary to make it work.

The whole fact that Brown won does show that in Massachusetts, the majority, in an infamously left state, decided that this healthcare bill is something they did not want. That was the entire consistency of Brown’s campaign and the only reason that many I know voted for. That is one fact that cannot be argued with no matter what your viewpoint.

Ever think dropping this “good enough” model onto the people is a horrible idea?” I mean sit down and try and forsee all the problems the healthcare bill if passed, would bring about. Are those worth the weight paid? Like every single other anything run by government, we’re going to see a shoddy system that is poorly executed no matter how swell it looks on paper. Dollars will disappear under everyone’s nose, and it will seem as it a nickel from every new dollar taxed is all that makes it through the bullshit. Don’t ask me for examples of what I mean, because I mean any government run program, you can pick one and look it the bureaucracy.

Leftists are screaming that it’s a human right, I daresay it’s most certainly not, as human rights should be enforceable without a government behind them, if not, it’s a privilege that someone else is likely paying quite dearly for.

@Nullo Just to remind you, regardless of your opinion of Brown, this seat was Ted Kennedy’s. We had the greatest senator of all time for so long, which was why I was so proud to be from MA. This election is just a blow to Kennedy’s memory and to what we’re used to, even if he’s no worse than other states’ senators.

@sliceswiththings I was born and loved in MA most my life and Kennedy has always been a great shame. He was far from an alright person in his personal life, and his politics weren’t very clean. I hate to bring up the whole car business, but that’s honestly a massive deal. All that business with the wind turbines. He always appeared to attack oil companies but in all his propositions the cutoff between small and large companies would ride close to his two oil companies profit lines, thus saving his own ass everytime.

I have spoken now with 3 people from Mass and one is such a die-hard Dem she said would cut off her arm to prevent her from ever pushing a GOP vote. She voted for Brown not because he was the best choice…but to send a clear message to Obama and the Democratic Party that they have fumbled the ball big time and she is fed up with all the lies and back room BS that was promised by Obama to finally come to and end during his term. Her words not mine.

Does anyone think that this so-called reform should be pushed over the cliff so we can wait for conditions to get bad enough people will want real reform?

@Cruiser – Yeah, that’s a real good reason for someone to cut their own throat. Anybody that thinks that way probably also believes that suicide only hurts the deceased.

@wundayatta – I wish people had the luxury of time, but many do not. The current bill wasn’t perfect, but it was better than nothing at all for millions. Now,if it happens at all, the conservative version will be a pretend reform bill (if they even bother with it at all) that only looks like reform on the surface and guarantees that the insurance industry and big pharma will continue to control Washington D.C.. It’ll just be business as usual.

@Rufus_T_Firefly Exactly!

@Rufus_T_Firefly There are ways to get the kind of health care reform you are defending without the need for a massively expensive over-bloated pork project health care bill that the Dems wanted to ram down our throat and this election yesterday proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that more and more Americans are waking up to the fact that Obama’s mantra of change means squat! The disgrace of the Democratic mishandling of the whole process is quite obvious and will forever taint his tenure in office. The closed door backroom deals that have transpired by the Dems in a desperate move to get this bill passed is further proof that it is business as usual in Washington and nothing has “changed” and it appears it is worse than ever.

Now just maybe we can sit down and approach this bill in a true bi-partisan way that will help create a bill that is fair to the American people and not some one sided political agenda.

The reality is it is beyond obvious that it is our government that needs reform first and foremost before these knuckleheads have a prayer of getting anything constructive done for us the American people Dem, Rep and Ind alike. All of us are suffering because of this idiocy of the 2 party political system.

@Rufus_T_Firefly That is where I whole-heartedly disagree. I do not believe that that terrible bill is better than nothing. I think nothing is far better than that bill, and I’ll gladly take my nothing over. In fact I’ll fight for my nothing.

@Cruiser & @Anon_Jihad – What makes either of you believe that another bill, a more bi-partisan bill as Cruiser calls it, will provide the necessary relief? Or ANY relief, for that matter? And what does that do for people who are already dying without much-needed health insurance? Especially since, as Cruiser said, our government needs to reform first. Excuse me if I can’t see that ever happening. There was nothing one-sided about this bill, except that in it’s watered-down version it mainly favored the insurance companies, special interest groups and various politicians on both sides that regularly make money within the system as it currently exists. I’m glad you both have so much leeway with your own health. Some of us are not so lucky.

@Cruiser & @Anon_Jihad – Before you try to rationalize your points of view, know this. I worry every single day that that day might be my last because I can’t afford to get the medical treatment that would extend my life. Maybe if you both had such an alternative mental stimulus shoved in your faces each and every day, you’d be less likely or willing to accept such procrastination.

@sliceswiththings
As Brown himself put it, it’s not Ted Kennedy’s seat.

@Rufus_T_Firefly Honestly I feel bad for you or anyone who is between a rock and a hard place with regards to insurance or procedures to extend their lives and if that is truly the case for you Rufus, then you are most certainly barking up the wrong tree hangin your hat and hopes on that HCR bill as that bill would be exactly the thing that would possibly further exclude you from ever getting these hoped for treatments as you would first be processed by insurance actuaries who would then chart your health, odds of recovery and life expectancy and compare it to the cost of these procedures and then THEY will decide if you are worth saving irregardless of safeguards against pre-existing conditions. Those safeguards only guarantee you insurance coverage not a guarantee of medical treatment or service.

As far as procrastination Rufus…I hate it with a passion especially within the walls of our government and we now only have the Dems to blame for wasting almost an entire year on this carnival shell game process they tried to pull instead of working out an acceptable bi partisan solution as they should have done from day one. Had they played ball openly with the Rep’s as Obama promised during his campaign…I guarantee you a workable health care solution would be sitting on Obama’s desk as we speak.

@Cruiser – Playing ball openly with Republicans would only have resulted in their usual stalemate, which benefits no one. You apparently have a lot more confidence in the ability of Republicans and Democrats to work in a fully bi-partisan manner than do I. At the very least, passage of this bill gave me something to hope for and they could have continued it’s refinement after passage. So much for common sense in government. I hate them all and the people who support them.

@Rufus_T_Firefly I have a severe case of hypertension caused by an undiagnosed disease, I’m blind in one eye and need surgery to restore my sight, I have a separated hip that is slowly causing me spinal problems. I’m eligble for free care through MassHealth which would take of this, but I choose not too. Why? Because I’m honest even to myself, and I oppose all forms of government controlled healthcare.

@Cruiser While I agree with you on principle, I think that as a practical matter, the US government is incapable of doing anything without pork and bloat…. and the same is true of the insurance companies, practically any other company, and pretty much our country in general.

@jerv
A lot of companies spend a lot of time and effort paring away the unnecessaries. Such may be possible with government, or the health insurance companies; the question is, who gets the paring knife?

@jerv I can’t disagree with your assessment there and with my knowledge of the Gov. it was essentially built so our State Congressmen and Senators are essentially lobbyists for their respective states to further the needs of their constituents. It is when corporate lobbyists are allowed to camp out in the trenches of our Government and so directly influence policy is where the bus runs off the road. I as of late have been advocating the bulldozing of “K” Street, take away their keys to the executive branch bathrooms and eliminate their ability to literally and almost singlehandedly fund and direct political campaigns. It is no longer the will of the people and now the will of the Fortune 500.

I guess rush was right… obama IS a LOSER!!!

I would love to see the Dems put the following to an up-or-down vote: Portable policies, no more pre-existing conditions, no more caps, no more refusals based on age or current illness, no increase in taxes for the Middle Class, Medicare for the 55 and over crowd. Let’s see the Republicans vote against those issues one by one. Who would ever elect them again? We can still pass this, if it’s handled right.

@pdworkin
That might actually be the best way to reform the health insurance industry, not so much for strongarming the Republicans, but for crafting something that works.
Dunno if Congress has the authority to force corporations like that, though.

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The answer lies HERE

@DrBill it’s ironic how the “conservatives” are rallying against a government they forced on the country. We are where we are because of people, apparently like you, think that your little video is funny.

They also seem to support allowing corporations to unduly influence popular thinking and military solutions for all problems.

The real irony is that all of those deluded people that yelled out at the town hall meetings were arguing points that never existed. The worked directly off of corporation sponsored Republican Party talking points, the majority of which were either gross exaggerations or out right lies.

It looks like DrBill and his ilk will win and there will be no reform. Enjoy your health care cost increases and the bankruptcy of your neighbors. You must be very proud.

@DrBill ROFLMAO!! oh my I have not laughed that hard all week!!

There’s no reason that Congress can’t pass a bill that addresses the real issues without Socializing the country.

@lucillelucillelucille
Doesn’t fit the agenda :)

@Nullo-Health care could’ve passed without a single Republican vote.The hard left leadership in Congress has tried to hi-jack it’s own party and take the country with it.Now,maybe they’ll come to their senses and realize that this is not a Socialist nation and address the actual problems with health insurance.

Hard left, moderate, hard right – I think we are all running around like chickens with our heads cut off and buried in the sand! I am in despair. It takes a lot to make me cynical, it is not my nature but I am so fed up.

@janbb I’ve been cynical about politics since I was 10.

@lucillelucillelucille I think you have it all wrong. The first thing the democrats did was take the only socialist part off the table. They didn’t push for a single payer system. The rest of the bills and arguments were about how to put some competition into the industry and how do you protect the consumer from the predatory and monopolistic practices of the insurance and drug companies? The republicans saw this as an opportunity to discredit the president and feather their nests with corporate dollars. There has been no cooperation between the parties because the republicans refused input and blocked all of the proposals.

Of course democrats are not blameless in the poor quality of the bill but what could they do when the republicans framed any and all measures as left wing propaganda?

Personally, I am not voting for any incumbent.

Single payer government run health care is all this bill was about.The Republicans were not invited to the table and in fact were locked out.This was very public.These bills were purely Democrat in origin and were designed to destroy private insurance by taxing private insurance holders and employers who provide health insurance.Your so-called competition was precisely the government option.This is all about trust and the hard left Democrat leadership along with this far left President have lost the trust of the governed as evidenced by Virginia,New Jersey and the Mass. vote.They pushed a Socialist agenda and are practising Facsist economic policies.The good people of this free country now see them for what they are and are rejecting them at every turn.Stop kidding yourself.This was not an altruistic bill,It was an attempt at capturing 1/6 of the US economy and putting it under government control.;)

oy vey.

@janbb. Right?

@lucillelucillelucille If you think that the MA election was about Left vs. Right then you are extremely uninformed! I mean, did you actually see/hear Coakley, or are you just taking Rush Limbaugh’s word for it all?

@lucillelucillelucille – Sounds like someone is heavily into tea-bagging and conspiracy theories. The bill wasn’t about destroying the insurance companies, it was about leveling the playing field for everyone.

@Rufus_T_Firefly I don’t see anything wrong with destroying the HEALTH insurance companies, they are just a load on the system. When I was growing up Blue Cross/Blue Shield were non-profit companies that took care of payment paper work for the hospitals. The doctors did their own billing. There was excellent care (for the times) and never hassles and few bankruptcies due to health care bills. All we need is someone to do the paper work, we don’t need companies that take 20% off the top.

@Ron_C

Conservatives….1
Socialist…........0

@DrBill I like to think of it as fascists 1, progressives 0

Does this mean they finally figured out if Obama was a facist, a socialist, a liberal, or a Wall Street suck?

@filmfann You mean he’s not all of them?

@Ron_C

What I wonder is how many more elections do you the socialist democrats have to lose before figuring out the voters don’t want obumacare?

If it was so good, why do congress want to be exempt from participating?

@DrBill First, I think you are using socialist wrong, there are social democrats but socialists are not really attracted to the democratic party.

Second, the election was more of a statement that the voters were disgusted by the way that the democrats handled the health care issue. I believe it was a punishment for the because they stopped acting like democrats and started acting like republicans. So the vote was more “if you are going to act like republicans, screw you we’ll vote for republicans.

Third, voters overwhelmingly want real health care reform, They don’t want a watered down give-away to health insurance companies.

Fourth, they have been successfully been fed a series of lies that somehow makes heros out of health insurance companies, paid for by the health insurance companies.

Fifth, since the Supreme Court just ruled that it is lawful for corporations to spend as much as they want bending the truth, we are now an official corporately run country. The recent election proves that people will vote as ordered. We have seen years of elected republican examples, it has now spead to the general public.

Sixth, I expect that all of us that don’t tow the corporate line will be branded as traitors. That is already starting to happen if your answer is an indication.

Corporations have got what they paid for and today we will all start paying up to and including bankruptcy. I hope your are happy. Shame on you

@Ron_C

“voters overwhelmingly want real health care reform”, the only true statement you made.

The votes want REAL health care reform, they do NOT want obumacare.
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Shame on you – Statement often said by those who cannot justify their views with facts.

@DrBill I rhink I’ll let you have this argument by yourself. Calling reform “obamacare” puts you squarely in the midst of the brainwashed. No survey, or logical argument will sway your opinion, Good night.

If you would make a logical statement, I will be happy to consider it.

@Ron_C
Fascists? Sounds like gross exaggeration.

@Nullo describing the support of big corporations as fascist is no stretch at all. After all that is what the Nazi government did in Germany. The made sure that corporate leaders had prime leadership positions in government. What is a typical corporation but a fascist organization, government with orders from the top. That is o.k. it works for business because there is very little room for democracy in competing business.

The very fact that a leader is successful in business is probably a good reason to keep him out out a position of power in government. Just imagine, now. The supreme court has opened the doors for corporations influence all aspects of government as if they were real people with constitutional rights. We have had a corporate, fascist take over of the country. Fascism is the way of the future, expect it to codified into law. Things are bad but they will get much worse.

@Ron_C Your “fifth” argument above concerning the supreme court ruling is so biased you fail to see the inherent threat to our freedom speech and that is a tragic shame. Newspapers and other media outlets are allowed to voice their endorsements of candidates as well as other politicians all of which are extremely influential, so why would you support censorship of another voice in the process. The real beauty to that ruling is to preserve the voice of reason whether R or D or independent through corporations…not just the big ones….but ALL corporations who feel strong enough about a particular candidate to put money behind an ad campaign to support that candidates views. Nothing at all wrong with that. If you have a problem with free speech and prefer to have your Government censor the voice of the people you may find China or North Korea more to your liking.

I can see why Obama is scared $hitle$$ about this ruling as it preserves yet another voice to the growing chorus of hoodwinked voters.

@Cruiser if I have a bias it is for democracy. How can you have a real, informed electorate if the discourse is controlled by unlimited corporate interests. Suppose the large military contractors get together to fight ending the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? They do it now but what if they were free to spend unlimited funds to expand the war because it is good for their business? What happens to the voice of the opponents? The only thing people will hear is the voice of corporate interest.

Corporate interests and the welfare of our citizens are almost mutually exclusive. I think that the court has dealt a death blow to representative democracy. The fact that you disagree proves my point.

The right has allowed their hate for Obama and despair for loss of power to cloud their judgement, Your enemy’s enemy is not your friend. Extreme corporate power will not make you free, you will have a more formidable boss than any president current or past. We will all loose.

@Ron_C You need to get yourself up to speed on this whole process you are attempting to argue. You paint a nice sound bite about the military corps and war but that sliver issue is so far removed from the center of this debate it is pointless. What that ruling did was deny censorship in any form and preserve the voice of countless corporations big and small Dem and Rep or ind to be able to voice their views on either side of the issue…this is so so important as have this voice even a corporate voice is just as important as an of the other voices in the process.

What are you so afraid of Ron?? Are you afraid of the truth?? Are you afraid of someone else’s opinion?? Based on your comments in this thread I think you are very afraid comrade!

@jerv-Voter registration in MA..is 3–1 Democrat.So you you had a great many Democrats voting for the Republican.Yes,it’s left vs right.It’s ideology.The people of MA.were not willing to allow the country to be taken that far left.

@Rufus_T_Firefly -XOXO

@Ron_C – You’re preaching to the choir. I’d like nothing more than to see the insurance industry burn and crumble to the ground. They do nothing more than take your money and typically give absolutely nothing in return. They truly are the death panels that Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, Rush Limbaugh and all of the other ignorant tea-baggers regularly spoke of. They ignored hundreds of thousands of chances to save their customer’s lives by denying treatments that were considered too avante garde or experimental and by denying claims, but instead did nothing out of pure greed. They also authored and funded the much of the misinformation related to healthcare reform and further added to the rift that currently exists between good Americans. There is absolutely nothing patriotic about them and they deserve the obscurity of non-existence.

Oh @Cruiser how wrong can one person be? Please explain why a large corporation has the same rights as a real person and virtually none of the responsibilities? After-all, you can’t put a corporation in jail, you can’t prosecute them for liable and expect anything except tremendous legal bills. The individuals in the corporation have the right to free speech, the corporation should have no right to use its resources to influence the selection of candidates. Look at the corporately own senators we have now like Joseph Lieberman, just imagine the entire government populated with such scum.

@Rufus_T_Firefly evidently not all the congregation shares our views. Evidently some of us helped themselves to the cool-aid.

@Anon_Jihad “the right doesn’t take it to the extremes like the left”? Are you serious or did you forget, firing union Air traffic controllers and hiring inexperienced controllers to replace them, starting two full fledged wars, on for no reason except they had oil, giving the biggest tax break in history to the most wealthy Americans? Not extreme, you need to buy a dictionary. Further, the stacked Supreme courts just eliminated 60 years of campaign finance laws in favor of big business, that wasn’t extreme either.

@Cruiser – I’d have to disagree that a corporate voice is just as important as a voter’s voice. It was allowing the corporations a voice that helped get us in this mess in the first place. Granted, we do need business involvement in order to have jobs and to stabilize the economy, but other than that democracy isn’t about them, it’s about the people and the people’s voices are being ignored by our elected officials in favor of bottomless coffers and corporate interests.

@Ron_C and @Rufus….Corporations by and large employ a vast majority of the citizenry of this country and should have the same rights and freedoms including right to free speech enjoyed by the employees of said corporation. You actually have a problem with that?? Are you seriously suggesting that our Government should restrict even prohibit a corporations ability to project it’s opinions and fundamental views towards the structure and function of this Government of ours that these very corporations pay upwards of 35% of their income on taxes to support this Government??? You have got to be kidding me??? You are actually in favor of censorship?? I hope you are joking here….

@Cruiser giving corporations have the right to free speech, they should not have the right to overwhelm the political system. In the current system, money means votes. Voters are easily swayed by shrill criticism and hate speech. Look at what happened at the tea party rallies and at town how meetings. Virtually all of that money came from either false or exaggerated claims and false flag organizations directly funded by the health and drug industry. That and their previously purchased law makers killed real health reform.

Just imagine if they were unleashed we are all now controlled by corporations. Hell yes I want to limit corporation free speech. Why should they have the same rights as humans. It is obscene to think that an entity without conscience or responsibilities could have the same privileges are real people.

@Ron_C Why stop there then Ron?? You would have to censor newspapers, all media outlets, PAC’s, scholastic institutions etc. and all people not named Ron to make you happy!

Characterizing corporations as without conscience or responsibilities is just plain silly and your determination to want to control free speech is contemptable beyond the pale for what this country stands for. China or N. Korea seems like it would suit your needs better.

@Rufus_T_Firefly In case you didn’t notice…it was that very thing you referred to…the voice of the people that turned the tide on this health care bill, not corporations. It was the voice of the voters in Mass. that has caused the Dem party and Obama to do a 180 degree turn on their approach to this HC reform bill. Like Lucille pointed out, one of the bluest states in our Union rose up and let Obama and his cronies know flat out enough is enough and that he has broken every core promise he made to his Democratic and Independent voters who elected him to office.

Kinda gratifying for me to see this very thing you mention…the voice of the people, can still be heard over the dull roar of corporate interests you and Ron seem so frightened of.

@Cruiser – Yeah, people often scream when they run in fear. Other than losing the MA Senate seat, it’s really not a fair representation of the entire country’s pulse. Keep blaming it all on the evil Obama “and his cronies’ if you must, but such knee-jerk reactions to fear are usually unfounded and unnecessary. This reaction is, more than likely, no different. Also, you’re seem to be very much a part of the corporate machine so your answers don’t usually present themselves to others as particularly unbiased.

@Rufus_T_Firefly You are right it is too early to tell for sure what the winds of “change” will blow our way. But I would even expect you yourself must be a bit surprised and taken aback by the events of late.

I may be part of the corporate machine you seem so fearful of but I need people like you as much as you need people like me to make our worlds work. I work hard to make my company run and make a profit so I can continue to employ the people I care about who make my living possible. Obama made the fatal mistake he thought he couId run our country without the input or support of the Reps. Now he has his a$$ over a barrel and is scrambling to mend fences. I never wished for things to be this way for Obama but dammit it is time he get his $hit together and stop trying to change the world and just get back to basics.

@Cruiser – I guess I’m having trouble getting past the fact that even if Obama did ‘stick to basics, he’d be getting a tongue-lashing from the conservative right for not doing enough to reform the system. It amazes me that no one was concerned with the issues when Bush was President but Obama needs to get his sh*t together. It also amazes me that no one party has anything close to a plan to cure what ails us, but everyone is willing to fight to the death to win complete control over the process. And… the only side whose argument even makes sense is the one who is least represented… the people. I’m f**king sick of the drama and especially sick of those who perpetuate the problem..

@cruiser since you claim to be part of the corporate machine, I assume that you have a U.S. based company. Can I also assume that you have no problem with your international competitors controlling the legal process in the U.S.? That is what the Supreme Court decision did. They gave any company doing business the right to spend as much money and exert their influence on who is elected and what laws are passed or rescinded.

Now the only limiting factor the is on corporate influence is the amount of money or influence they are willing to spend.

I expect to see immigration laws changed to allow as many people into the country as needed to keep the wage base down. I expect the law that we can’t seek discounts for medicare drugs to be kept. There will probably be more “no bid” contracts handed out.

That is only the tip of the iceberg and small business will lose all of its influence along with the American people. I hope you work for a big international firm so that even though you will have no freedom, you will be maintained comfortably by your masters.

So, unless you are Bill Gates with your own billions, you will be guided and ordered like the rest of us.

Hitler had a similar setup. His cabinet and administration had heads selected directly from big business because he believed that the country would run more efficiently. That worked as long as they had enemies that they could fight and defeat. When they ran out of them, they took on Jews, Gays, Gypsies, and dissenters. I suspect that future U.S. governments will go through a similar process. Hell, they could even bring back slavery if they have trouble with the workforce. It already exists in the form of illegal immigration labor, it will just be formalized.

This Brave New World is something that even Ayn Rand didn’t think about. She was worried about communism, she neglected corporatism. Hope you enjoy it.

@Ron_C Gee whiz Ron what ever you are taking you need to start sharing…not fair arguing from way up there…you need to level the playing field!

@Cruiser I like you and respect you and you are completely wrong if you don’t see the problem with this recent decision.

There never seems to be accountable for decisions made on a really grand scale.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice, outright lied us into war with Iraq, there was not even a hearing.

Roberts promoted this decision, and I doubt that he will be impeached for the most horrendous decision since Dred Scott.

Part of the reason is that the politicians are bought and paid for and what is happening now is that there will be even less, if possible, accountability.

This is a completely drug-free answer (except for a little caffine)

@Ron_C Happy Sunday Ron…the problem I see in your caffeine laced reply is that politicians have been bought and sold since day one….nothing new there. I am glad you pointed that out though as that IMO is the number one complaint I have in that Obama was elected on his explicit campaign promise to eliminate “K” street lobbyists influence in his cabinet. He has completely abandoned that promise and is further proof to just how powerful “K” Street is and why I advocate the “K” Street should just be bulldozed and made into a park.

@Cruiser you have my complete agreement on that issue. Obama has had a year to prove he is different. He spent too much time seeking consensus where none was possible. His cabinet choices were supposed to garner bi-partisan support, instead he selected the worst of previous administrations.

As far as K street goes, bulldozing is not enough. I have always advocated for the District being a closed city. Only legislators, their staff, and tourists should be allowed in. Lobbyists and their legal staff should be specifically excluded from all private meeting with legislators while congress is in session, not just during working hours but during the entire session. Emails and letters are acceptable and should be kept on file permanently. No secret sessions with business leaders like Cheney and Obama had. Every part of the law making process must be on public record. Deal making is acceptable as long as details are full disclosed. It is hard for infection to grow in the daylight.

Local boards have sunshine laws, they must also be enforced for federal meetings.

Of course this is all a pipe dream since we are now officially owned and operated by corporations.

@Ron_C You nailed it!

@Ron_C
“we are now officially owned and operated by corporations.”
No. These corporations only have the power given them to by the government itself directly with exclusivity contracts and a continued immunity against antitrust laws. There is not a damn thing wrong with corporations at all as long as they are held accountable to the law, just as individuals are. It’s not their fault for taking what they’ve been offered.

@Anon_Jihad – I’d have to slightly disagree about how much power corporations actually hold. Many corporations not only hold the additional powers granted them by government, they also possess the power of extremely wealth in that they have the ability to concentrate their financial resources around whatever endeavor best suits their own agenda. That extreme wealth gives them both an edge and a presence in government not possessed by most average taxpaying American citizens. Then, on top of that, they have continual access to the media to brand and sell their products and/or services and to help sway public opinion on any given subject. If I go to an ATM to withdraw $50 and the machine spits out $5,000 because of some mechanical glitch, it is not my fault, but that wouldn’t make it right to keep the money. Business should have the same conscience as the rest of us.

@Rufus_T_Firefly Well remember those corporations only have the money we give them for their goods and services. So when the government ensures that all playing ball, are doing so fairly, meaning without government protection from antitrust laws or special contracts, well then the teams are left at the mercy of the “fans”. It doesn’t matter how “good” they are at what they do, if people prefer a competitor, they’re free to take their dollar elsewhere.

@Rufus_T_Firefly
Remember that Bush wasn’t threatening massive reform of the healthcare industry, and Barry is.

@Anon_Jihad – That’s a fairly moot point, since they already have a great deal of our money. At this point, simply choosing another competitor would have little effect on the existing wealth these corporations already possess and my statement stands.

@Nullo – Other than the fact that Bush was an idiot and was an enabler who helped opened the door for megalithic corporations to lobby their way even further into the system, and given the fact that Obama was opposed at nearly every turn on his reform plans, I really don’t understand what, if anything at all, your statement has to do with mine. If there is a point there, I must have missed it.

@Rufus_T_Firefly
“That’s a fairly moot point,”
~Says who? What evidence supports that boycotting a corporation won’t harm or destroy it?

@Anon_Jihad don’t you get it? The Supreme Court just granted full constitutional rights to an entity that doesn’t die, that can’t be punished, that has the ability to sway the thinking of millions of people by embellishing the truth or outright lying (the lies are protected also), and that has no moral obligation to the country.

In the next 2 election cycle they will probably ending up owning ¾ of congress and the president. Ironically there is nothing preventing a foreign company incorporated in the U.S. from financing their own candidates. We could be run by China, Saudi Arabia, and any Muslim radical group that can scrap together $20 to incorporate in Delaware.

Our best bet is to just give up the idea of being a sovereign country and suit for membership in a North American Alliance. Maybe numbers will dilute the power of individual corporations. I truly believe that this decision has ended democracy in America.

@Anon_Jihad – Show me enough people willing to set all their politics and their differences aside and work together so that such a boycott will actually have an impact, not on only one industry, but on all of the guilty parties across the board so that not even one of them can say they didn’t get the memo. Do that and I’ll happily to change my opinion, but I won’t hold my breath waiting for the rift in American politics to heal itself. Until that time, yes, the point IS moot because most Americans are predictable, sedentary creatures of habit, nauseatingly content to argue needlessly and endlessly over such vapid topics as whose political party owns the correct definition of truth or what channel everyone should tune to to get their news or whether everyone should have the right to the same basic standard of healthcare or whose car has the most magnetic support ribbons. Just for the record, I’d be for a boycott, but there is really no good way to lead everyone toward a single course of action.

@Ron_C Here we go again!! Ron what you just described could be applied to every political party, PAC, Religious institutions, University, Media outlet, blog and person on a soap box. How can you support censorship for the big bad corporations as you paint them all to be without equally applying the same rules of contempt towards free speech you seem to have to every other voice in the political process?? (or is it just republican bent corporations you have a problem with but I digress)

Tell me why is a corporate voice or opinion any less important than yours or any other voice in this process?? Explain to me how a corporate voice is any more or any less influential than an Oral Roberts, Roland Martin, CNN, John Stweart, Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Drudge, Ann Coulter the list goes on.

To me corporate funding for this extra voice of reason which is a vital a critical part of the whole process just so the talking heads of the world and the politicians themselves have a system of checks and balance to keep their rants almost honest and sensible.

@Cruiser I avoiding answering that post but because I couldn’t sum up exactly how I felt about it, but you literally expressed my exact opinion. Thanks for covering my ass.

@Cruiser a corporate voice is much larger than my. They have resources of which we can only dream, they have the power to not only support an issue but to frame it. Look at the health care debate. They talked about death commissions, shutting off medicare, and rationing medical care.

None of the legislation had any of that in it but corporate money changed the whole tone of the program. When originally proposed the program would have taken the burden of medical care off of business, it would have closed down an industry that produces nothing, cures no one, and actually makes more money when treatment is refused.

Instead it became a advertising campaign answering accusations from false front organizations set up by the health and drug industry. Much time and money was spent circumventing the law and setting up shame organizations and demonstrations. Just imagine what a campaign would look like when these big pockets can be dipped into without subterfuge!. If you can’t see it, they have already won.

All I ask is that congress wear jackets like NASCAR so that we can know their sponsors.

Focus here Ron!! I feel I am losing you here!! This is about free speech!! All free speech and not just NASCAR Sponsorships!! Any one and everyone deserves a voice in this process!! Each and every purchase you make at any given point in your life give you power Ron!! Immeasurable power to exert your voice, your support, your endorsement of everything that company corporation stands for!!! Are you really advocating “giving up” that right, that freedom, that vote, that voice that is yours by your wanting to censor these big bad corporations you most certainly patronize and give profits to each and every time you make a purchase???

@Cruiser – Each and every person already has a voice in the process as defined in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. The corporations are run and owned by these very same people. Why then, should the corporations be entitled to two voices? By the way, that was my free speech talking. Do you think I should start a corporation so my voice will be a lot louder?

Stop them now. While we still can.
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/01/26-3

Oh great @Cruiser government by boycott. I prefer the vote. Anyway, which Boeing, or Mcdonnell Douglas products can I boycott. I don’t like the way my health care company treats isn’t customers so I guess I could just cancel my insurance and take my chances.

Everybody deserves free speech, most private citizens are able to sponsor million dollar television spots. The reason for government is to level the playing field and no single person can speak as loud a a corporation. Making corporations equivalent is wrong, unjust, anti-democratic, and probably unconstitutional.

The only thing that motivates congress is fear. Why should you be afraid of a couple disgruntled voters when you have a large corporation backing you.

@Ron_C Any elected official irregardless of his corporate sponsorships will have one term in office if they ignore or go against the will of the people who voted for him or her. Again you get to vote for the candidate who shares your views on how you want your life to function just the same as you can pick and choose which corporations get your hard earned dollars. If you don’t like what a corporation has to say by who they support in political campaigns…don’t give them your money!! That is much more powerful for you to do than censoring their opinions. Lack of profit if the surest way to silence a corporation you don’t agree with. Leave freedom of speech intact Ron.

@Cruiser – You’ve either ignored or completely missed the point, but I think I know what you mean. There’s at least heating/cooling company that I’d have to boycott because the owner thinks his corporation should be able to purchase as much political clout as it can afford, thus drowning out his customer’s individual voices in Washington D.C.

This says it better than I can.

@Cruiser “Any elected official irregardless of his corporate sponsorships will have one term in office if they ignore or go against the will of the people” haven’t you heard the advertising and dirty tricks? How do you think Bush got his second term? Less than 30 percent of eligible voters voted for him. The right was motivated and turned up, the left was disillusioned and didn’t show up. So with the right advertising, dirty tricks, and the help of the Supreme court Bush won. You give way too much credence to the voters powers of discernment.

There is still this fiction that everybody loved Reagan and that he was one of the great presidents. I know I hated him, he’s why I left the Republican party. A lie repeated often and passionately enough looks like the truth.

@Ron_C Get real Ron, the only reason Bush won a second term is because the Dems couldn’t find a more qualified candidate to run against him and that is truly sad commentary. Just like why Obama won is because the Republicans put an aging war hero and a pig in lipstick against BO and Biden? Come on there is something seriously wrong with this country when we are picking our presidents by quorum of the lesser of 2 evils.

@Cruiser there is speculation that the Republicans blew the election on purpose because they could see the economic crisis coming. They are now blaming everything on the democrats.

There may be some truth to that. I was considering voting for McCain, we go way back. Then they picked Palin, I then started to donate to Obama’s campaign.

By the way, I like Joe. I think he is genuine and says what he thinks. Granted, it may be a little crazy or politically incorrect but it is more fun then listening to “polished” politicians.

@Cruiser – I disagree that Bush got a second term because the Dems couldn’t find a suitable candidate simply because one wouldn’t have to look very damned far to find a better candidate than the incumbent Bush. I do completely agree with your last point, though. When a choice of lesser of two evils becomes the norm, something is definitely broken.

@Ron_C – Somehow I just couldn’t see myself voting for McCain after seeing proof of his volatile and, from what I’ve seen, frequent temper tantrums.

@Rufus_T_Firefly both Gore and Kerry were better candidates than Bush and they had all of the characteristics that Bush lacked, knowledge, honesty, patriotism, the ability to speak English. What they lacked was a corporate network willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money to distort the truth and use real propaganda techniques to sway the unthinking public. Having a corrupt supreme court majority in their pocket locked the campaign.

I have always felt a closeness to McCain. I was one of the volunteer drivers that drove him and a few other former P.O.W.s from the airport in Norfolk. We didn’t know the names of who we drove until later. I know what he did, his bravery, and strength that he showed while in captivity. I know my contact was insignificant but I have always admired the man. I was really hurt when he embraced Bush after the smear campaign Bush ran against him. I would still have voted for him if he had found a reasonable candidate. I am sure that is the rational that Carl Rove and company had when they chose him to be the candidate. After all of his years of faithful service to the country, the evil forces threw him under the bus to shift the blame for our current problems to the Democrats.

@Ron_C [quote]“What they lacked was a corporate network willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money to distort the truth and use real propaganda techniques to sway the unthinking public. ”

Gee…do you think your statement would in any way would not be an accurate reason then on how Obama “bought” his presidency with a record over 800 million campaign war chest?? And what might you think would be the reason we have not heard another word about Obama’s campaign promise of campaign reform??

@Cruiser what can I say, I still think Obama got the majority of his money from individual donations. That, however, doesn’t say much because, he still retains the powers that were taken by the previous president. The first thing he did in office was to continue Bush’s bailout. On unique thing he has done is to demand repayment. No republican has ever asked that corporate bailout be returned to the government.

It is still early, however. Another unique thing about this presidency is that Obama still seems to remember his campaign promises. He may not fulfill them all but he still remembers. Do you remember any promises Bush made, let alone attempted to fulfill?

@Ron_C No actually I don’t remember any or GW’s promises I was too blinded by his charm, charisma and promise of unbridled wealth and prosperity. ;-)

@Cruiser George Bush’s charisma—I think that is an oxymoron. He is the first president that made me cringe. I travel overseas a great deal. I used to tell people that asked, that I was Canadian.

@Ron_C Promise me unbridled wealth and prosperity and I will even vote for you Ron!

You don’t get unbridled wealth unless you give my campaign a significant donation. It is ironic, the people that don’t need the help bribe government officials to get special laws, tax deductions, and preferred treatment. The people that need a break are given a $300 check and told to f**k off.

@Ron_C That is a bit harsh there Ron…a $300 check and the illusion that life will soon get better seems like a pretty good deal that anybody who is unemployed, underemployed, up to their eyeballs in debt would fully embrace!!??

@Cruiser the $300 is just enough to make a person realize just how poor they are. I don’t know anyone that buys the illusion that things will get better. Mostly, people hope that things don’t get worse.

Considering congress, corporate atmosphere, and the traitorous supreme court, the idea that things won’t get worse seems unlikely.

Obama sold hope and change, what we got was same shit, different day. I still like the idea of using bulldozers to clean out the Washington. It would be good for the environment if we restored it to its original swampy conditions.

Oh how I wish that Democrats didn’t have to turn in their balls when they took the oath of office.