A desperate solution for a failed country - What are the pros and cons for Haiti becoming the 51st US state?

I’m not sure exactly why it would be in our interest. We can barely keep the states we have afloat.

Just the thought of adding another state makes me want to massage my eyes and find a beer.

This will probably not be a popular answer, but, although I am not American, I don’t think it would be a good idea. If America wanted it as a state then I am sure it would be by now! I think the person that said it is probably very desperate, and wanting to be part of America will encourage more visitors, which equals more money and therefore less poverty. Before this tragedy happened, if you asked do you want to be part of America, the answer would more than likely be no.

Well, anything that annoys the French has to be a good thing!

All they have to do is apply. Texas and Vermont went stright from soveriegn nation to state. Congress would have to approve. This seems like a one-sided deal though. Haiti would get all the benefits and the US winds up with an impoverished, overpopulated, resource-depleted wreck. As soon as they got US citzenship, the people would stream into the mainland searching for work.

But we already have Alabama.

There would be no benefits at all the country does not have anything to offer but millions of needy starving people,,, might as well ask Ethiopia to become a state !

Suppose the international community makes a huge financial commitment similar to the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan in 1948.

Now if all this money gets wasted and Haiti is back to its previous miserable condition in say 10 years everybody would ask whether it was wise to make such a commitment. If this money helps to get Haiti to a level of Alabama or Mississippi we’d see a ROI. I’m not saying I support this idea, but just for the sake of the argument we should look at the pros as well.

What about the feasibility of the international community backing the merger of Haiti and the Dominican Republic?

@PandoraBoxx What’s in it for the Dominican Republic? They are a wealthier nation with a totally differnt culture and language.

Historically, the US only adds states that are already stable, and productive. Now this doesn’t completely rule Haiti out, as this is definitely a special condition. Their government is probably already on the brink of collapse, and we’re going to be there helping the people as it is. BUT, the only way you will probably see this happen is if the people of Haiti decide they’d like to join AFTER rebuilding is done and some kind of order/infrastructure is established.

The 51st state will more than likely be Puerto Rico.

@westy81585 Agree, or Guam or USVI. Right now the tax benefits of remaining a territory outweigh the voting benefits of statehood.

By the time we would seriously consider them for statehood they’d likely be stable enough to no longer be interested.

Taking them in their current state is just a disaster waiting to happen. Take a look New Orleans and Detroit. We can’t even properly manage recovery in our current holdings.Why on earth would we consider adding a state that would likely cost at least 20x anything we’ve spent already just to reach “habitable”.

What that would essentially amount to adding somewhere in the neighborhood of 7–8 million citizens who live below the poverty line, many of whom would not be considered educated enough to be employed in jobs capable of raising them beyond that.

Beyond that we’re talking about adding a state about the size of Maryland most of which doesn’t have proper utilities, no construction standards (what got them into this mess in the first place), limited (before the quake) social services, and an unemployment rate that makes depression era unemployment look positivity brilliant.

As for pros… aside from putting a military base there in case we ever wanted to invade south america (don’t laugh, I’m sure some politician has had that thought cross their smarmy little mind) I can’t seem to think of any.

Bottom line: Stop wasting words on political nonsense and let the US build (or rebuild in this case) itself from within first. The stronger we make ourselves the more able we are to assist those in need. And while we’re at it, take some (say 20%) of these donation dollars and set up some long term training (and committed international funding) for basic services so the Haitian’s can better take care of themselves. (that whole give/teach a man a fish concept)

The problems with Haiti are that it is and has always been set up as an oligarchy. There are a handful of fabulously wealthy families that run things there, buying governments and armies to ensure that they stay the only ones with wealth. Taxes are 2% of wages and there is a 10% VAT, so the tax system is that wonderful flat tax conservatives here laud as the prescription to economic Nirvana and you see how that works.

That purely regressive tax system means someone earning 100 million dollars a year would pay 2% of that in payroll taxes (except that the wealthy in Haiti have all arranged things so they pay no taxes). But even if they did pay, that 2% leaves them with a cool $98,000,000 in pocket. They don’t need to buy much of anything in Haita where the VAT would impact them, so they can keep in the bank almost all of that $100,000,000.

The Average worker in Haiti earns $2 a day. At 2%, he pays $0.04 in taxes on that. But every loaf of bread and bottle of clean drinking water he buys costs 10% more because of the VAT, which means he can’t even feed his family on the $1.96 he has left. There is no hope of his ever getting out of poverty and all the wealth the nation produces ends up in the hands of the oilgarchs who run things from behind the scenes to keep it just that way.

That is the forumla for a banana republic. It’s modern feudalism at work, preserving a cheap labor force for the fuedal lords who own all the land.

You would have an impossible fight on your hands convincing conservatives in America to adopt Haiti as a 51st state and do something about that because they are Hell bent to set up a flat tax system here. Mind you, most of them are not oligarchs. They have just been sold a bill of goods by the real oligarchs of America, that if they could cut taxes down to almost nothing money would flow to them because a rising tide lifts all ships. Problem is people aren’t ships and the rising tide that regressive taxes produce drowns all those on the bottom and lifts a tiny precentage at the top to the point where they soon own everything and are in position to buy the government and keep things that way forever, or at least until it produces a revolutin like happened in France.

Or what about the United States of Central America? All of those countries could band together and become one nation, and take Texas with them for financial support.

First you have to convince the Haitian people to request statehood. That’s not as easy as the quoted individual thinks. While many Haitians want to leave for America, that doesn’t mean they want the U.S. running Haiti. They’ve had a lot of bad experiences with U.S. government involvement in Haiti. Next you’ve got to convince the American people to accept them. Some people have suggested this would be an easy process if the Haitians just pass a referendum, but it wouldn’t. Puerto Rico is a territory of the United States, as was every state other than the original 13 colonies. For a territory there is a clear path to statehood. For a separate country, I’ve no idea what the path to statehood would be, but I expect that the U.S. would have to approve them, and that they might have to become a territory first. Then they have to write up an acceptable constitution, among other things.

But those aren’t really pros and cons, they’re just technical hurdles. The pros and cons are trickier, and have to be considered on a long and short term basis. Long term I see only two cons: strained relations between the U.S. and Dominican Republic and potential long term unrest in Haiti leading to violence and even terrorism. Both of these can be prevented if handled properly, but that’s a big if. Long term pros are infinite for the Haitian people: improved education, health care (which says something about Haiti now), improved economic opportunity, greater freedom. For the U.S. the long term benefit is that they get a vacation resort that will make a lot of money. There could also be new agricultural development, and new markets. As a whole it would make the United States stronger economically.

Short term doesn’t look so good. First you have to establish security and law and order in Haiti, which means a U.S. military presence, which the Haitian people aren’t going to like, with good reason. Maybe we could get around this, but I doubt it. Next there’s going to be an immediate exodus of poorly educated, poor, non-English speaking Haitians to the United States. Mostly South Florida will have serious problems with this. There are enough poor people and immigrant laborers in South Florida, the last thing they need is more. Then there is the cost of building the infrastructure that Haiti needs and issues with insuring that the state government isn’t as corrupt as past national governments have been. I foresee a lot of court cases and physical interventions to get things straightened out. But going back to long term, eventually you won’t have to worry about Haitian immigrants any more and long term investment in Haiti is likely to pay off in tax revenues and expanded markets.

I think it’s a net winner, if the support for it actually existed. But I think a lot of Haitians don’t want us ruling them, even as a state, and a lot of Americans don’t want Haiti. We have a very different immigration policy for Haitians than for Cubans, and while a lot of that’s political, there are many people who think it’s mainly because Haitians are black. And there are always those in American for whom that is actually true, and they may not admit it, but they’ll vote it at the ballot box.

I think most Americans won’t like the idea. They don’t like the idea of making Puerto Rico a state (which by the way I think it was under Clinton that they had another vote and the Puerto Ricans voted against statehood) and most Americans don’t like that Puerto Ricans get to come to the US if they feel like it.

Now back to Haiti. I would be fine making them a state if they get some birth control. I believe the people would work hard, and that they desire a better life. If they are going to just keep producing bunches of babies they cannot support then I am out. I criticize this about our own poor American cities, I don’t want another city living on welfare because they don’t subscribe to birth control. I am not complaining about paying for it, don’t confuse me with the conservatives, I am talking about people need to get with reality that in the city having children you cannot afford, especially as a teen mother, hurts your chances of finishing your education or being prosperous, and in many American cities has led to crime ridden neighborhoods. Why would I want more of that for my country?

@ETpro I thought the term flat tax was used for flat income tax, not VAT tax?

I also think that this desperate solution is very unrealistic, but I wanted to explore the idea. What about new creative alternatives? Taking all lessons learned into account. Just pouring in money won’t work. What about a 20-year joint ruling including joint police, joint education boards, infrastructure administration plus long-term guarantees for foreign investments? Tourism could be a huge new opportunity.

I fear if it’s just the standard approach we will be able to deal with the acute misery without any realistic hope for a long-term solution.

@mattbrowne Well, you know that I support a North American Union, and I think the Caribbean should be included. I’m all in favor of thinking about these kinds of “modest proposals”, even if they aren’t necessarily likely or feasible.

that is the saddest most ridiculously crass suggestion i have heard on this website, i really do despair, although i appreciate that the intention is well meaning. Haiti fought hard for it’s independence from it’s former colonial masters; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toussaint_L'ouverture it would be the cruelest imaginable fate to cede their sovereignty to another one. No, USA could best help Haiti by not meddling in their political affairs, and supporting social reform rather than lucrative business interests. Haiti as a collective nation would never ever accept this proposal.

@mattbrowne If you really want to try to fix it…. you need to start with the basics. These programs can be run independent of the government if needed but would be best implemented with the full support of the state. Corruption and criminal organization can not be tolerated at any point and must be eliminated by whatever means necessary from the very beginning. A self sustaining democratic country will not be possible until after these basics are in place.

Food, Water, Shelter, Saftey.

Donated food to start (eventually tailing off to nothing) combined with a ecologically sustainable, internationally subsidized farming program that teaches Haitians to work, manage, and bring to market their produce.

Donated water purification and dispersal systems, sewage and rain water treatment and recycling systems. Same as before build them and involve the Haitians from the beginning. Establish fully subsidized (for teachers and students) 4 year training curriculums to develop the technical knowhow to manage, maintain, improve, and replicate these systems as well as kindred industries capable of manufacturing the basic components necessary for them.

Donated construction equipment along with a paid program to ensure architectural and construction standards through the placement of volunteer planners and managers. Support this with international funds and people to establish native education and training along with degrees in the fields necessary to plan, build, and improve structures and their associated technologies and manufacturing industries on their own in an ecologically friendly and sustainable way.

Support the local police force with international training, tactics, and management training. Increase salaries with international funds to draw and retain servicemen. Donate weapons, body armor, and technology as successful training requires. Establish combined international and local oversight to root out corruption.

As these begin to fall into place you can establish local education and training in healthcare, education, civil engineering, and social services, and sustainable industrialization. All of which will require sustained annual donations from the international community far in excess of Haiti’s current national expenditure as well as significant intellectual, technical, and manpower resources committed to living, working, and teaching in Haiti for extended periods (think 4+ years minimum).

I think people will be happy to help if they feel confident it will stick. If they have cultural mores that work against becoming independent and prosperous it won’t matter what you do. I have little knowledge of Haiti and the culture there, so I am not making a presumption, just sayin’. We can’t do it in our own ghettos at home, why will we be able to fix it in Port Au Prince? It might be idealistic? Or maybe, truly, they just need a helping and hand and will be wildly prosperous, I don’t know.

Some people mentioned the Haitians faught for their independence, they would not want to give up their country, yet many of them are floating over to Florida for a new life. I agree it would be better to have Haiti do well in its’ own right, but I am not sure they would not jump at the chance to be part of America. To outsiders in poor countries the US seems like a magical land.

I firmly believe in respecting the autonomy and will of a people (unless they bomb us)

I think showing support in these hard times without pursuing expansion is the high road to follow.

If the haitians really wanted to join the union, it would be a stable desire over time, right now – marry in haste, repent at leasure comes to mind.

If the Haitians are interested, and the US is interested with sustained mutual benefit, then sounds like a deal. Otherwise, very very bad move politically.

They just had a hell of an after shock, quick someone send more electronic bibles.

More and more aid reaches the people. The relief organization are doing a great job. The world community is doing a great job being generous with donations. I’m sure every Flutherite who can afford it has already donated money.

Eventually there should be a high-level international conference creating a cohesive and realistic roadmap with milestones indicating how Haiti can be turned into a functioning country. In my opinion the Haitians can’t do this alone. It would be wise if they accepted mid-term counseling and external support. All management teams for the basic infrastructure administration for example should include people from other countries.

A EU-style North American Union or North and Central American Union would even be better. The US should take the lead here. The EU has demonstrated how to turn poor countries into moderately rich countries and there are mutual benefits. The US should not tolerate any poor country in their neighborhood.

No wait, doesn’t china get dibs next?