Is it time for affirmative action to go? I do, do you agree with me?

No. When these appointments are not news and race truly isn’t an issue, then we can talk about doing away with it. The very fact that Obama’s race is even pointed out demonstrates the need for affirmative action.
Do you really feel that our society has accepted all races and genders as having equal opportunies? Things have gotten better but we are still a long way off.

Like it or not, America is still a very racist nation. When the playing field is level for all, then by all means scrap it. Until then, if you think it’s hard as a non-minority, try it from a minority experience. http://video.yahoo.com/watch/31308/743645

@Dracool I AM the minority experience. I don’t want to be unilaterally seen as second best before I even have the chance to prove it by action or not.

If you asked me 10 years ago I was ready to get rid of it. I thought it had had its’ day. Then I moved to the midsouth 4 years ago, and I am not so sure. It is shocking how separated the races are here. I do think affirmative action is fundamentally unAmerican. We are supposed to look at people on their merits, not the color of their skin, or their national background.

Regarding some of the specifics in your statement: I don’t think people look at a black man and think he only got where he is because he is black if he does his job well. It is only mentioned if the guy seems underqualified. My husband is a minority, I don’t think he has ever been hired because of it, his name does not give away that he is Hispanic, but I am sure the company likes having a minority at the higher levels (he is a VP) because it looks good, especially where we live now. The company has few minorities at the President or CXO level.

White people do talk behind the backs of minorities if the minority is not pulling their weight on the job, has a bad attitude, or is accusing everyone of being racist, when they are not racist. If they suck at their job and don’t get fired, pretty much everyone thinks it is because management is afraid because they are a minority. My fathers former boss, who was black herself, hated the bullshit that went on in the federal government regarding this. She had little tolerance for black people taking advantage, or slacking in any way.

@Dracool – The fact that such a video could be written and produced for a national (majority white) audience today, who laughs because they understand what’s happening in it, is very telling.

I live in San Francisco, one of the most liberal cities on the planet. There were very few people who identified as “conservative” that I knew. Practically everyone in my 11th grade English class considered themselves “liberal”. But what was interesting was that I had to write a paper about how affirmative action should still be done and I didn’t find myself agreeing with what I wrote and neither did the rest of the class. I brought up many of the same points that were brought up in some of these replies. But my opponent wrote her paper about how rather than do it by race or such, it should be done by economic level because that is where much of the incongruity is, and let’s face it, economic level often corresponds with race in this country.

I completely understand what you’re saying, but I must also point out that a lot of people have misconceptions about affirmative action. A lot of people think AA is “we need 100 black guys, 50 Mexican guys, and 70 women. So let’s get going.” It’s not done like that anymore. So-called “race quotas” were determined illegal in the ‘70s. What AA actually is is people being urged to look more closely at the applications of minorities to various jobs and such. It instructs to consider it. And of course, laws vary by place.

So to be honest, I don’t know how I feel about it. I can see both bad and good in it. I certainly don’t agree with the idea of quotas however and I don’t agree with choosing someone who is less qualified over someone who is more qualified simply because of his or her race.

Should have been scrapped BEFORE it was even appliedLOL!
Had it been, we’d ALL be much better off today – and certainly jobs and the world’s economies!!

@Denidowi:

Let’s see if I understand, keeping women at home and out of the workplace would have made the US economy stronger and the unemployment rate lower? Would you agree with that?

Would the exclusion of racial and religious minorities also be a step in the right direction?
Would excluding legal immigrants from non-Christian and Non-English countries improve things as well?

Would programs preventing discrimination against homosexuals help the economy and unemployment rates.

I would appreciate you honest answers so we can understand which exclusionary measures you believe would have made the economy and unemployment better.

Thank you in advance for letting us know what you think.

Yes….and the sooner the better

@aprilsimnel “very telling”? Do you mean that they understand that racism is alive and well in the workplace?

I think there may be parts of the country were AA is not so necessary. Overall, however, it’s a sad fact that in many places it is still needed.

There is one thing, which I’m not sure falls under the AA umbrella, that should not be done. Please correct me if I am wrong and this is not a current practice, but I’ve heard people talk about exams for certain things, like become a firefighter, have different standards for minorities. I’ve also heard of colleges accepting minority students whose academic scores are lower than their usual standards. These are things I do not agree with. Some people will argue that the tests are not “fair,” that they are biased toward middle-class white students/people. I read a quote somewhere that said, “Life is unfair, not the tests.” Or something like that. The main reason I don’t agree with this kind of policy is that it seems to me it would set many people up for failure. If you don’t have the necessary background education to get into a certain college, how are you going to succeed once you are there? If you don’t have the necessary knowledge or skills to meet the standards for, say, becoming a firefighter or police officer, who is going to get you up to speed once you are given that opportunity? I would love to see our education system (in conjunction with parents, because I think we already expect so much from schools) do a better job of consistently preparing students of all backgrounds so they have the means to succeed at what they choose in life. Yes, the tests are unfair, but only because life is unfair. It’s not fair that some of us happen to be born into families that place a priority on education, can afford to live in places with excellent public schools, while others are born into families that don’t foster an atmosphere conducive to learning or don’t have the means to send their children to successful schools.

That’s my 2 cents, and I’d love to hear an opinion from someone more knowledgeable on the subject.

(Speaking only of schools)

Well, the UC system got rid of affirmative action the year I transferred to UCLA. Since then, minority enrollment has gone down a considerable amount, except for Asians. I spent the next 5 years watching the campus homogenize and the aptitude of the students decrease. UCLA went from a vibrant, diverse campus to a boring and soulless place to study and do research. Its the main reason I did not pursue a PhD.

Perhaps @DominicX is right, maybe income level should be more of a predictor than race.

“For equality sake isn’t that worth the risk of Jim Crow sprouting up somewhere?” Absolutely not.

I think only regional AA should be in place, like in the south for example, but you’re delusional if you really think we are out of this hole called racism. It’s not violent as much anymore, but there’s definitely undercover bias from all races.

Racism sexism xenophobia and homophobia are alive and well and people justify them using such notions and strengthening the economy and lowering unemployment.

If you declare identifiable groups to be ineligible for equal access to employment and career advancement then real Americans (White, Male, Christians) will face lower unemployment and thus everything will be right as it is intended to be by some higher Power.

@Dracool – Yup.

Affirmative Action needs to be cleaned up but not yet removed. Government set-aside programs are simply not legitimate, while the insistence (backed by law) that companies make a concerted effort to acquire a ratio of employees that reflects the community they are hiring in is legitimate. For now.

It is nearly time for Affirmative Action to go. I don’t know when it will truly be time but the parity sought is considerably closer than when labor unions prevented black people from joining.

@Dr_Lawrence do you really believe that there are legions of male white Christians that want to remove AA so they can get jobs?

Because there aren’t.

@Factotum Oh my gosh no! Just a local crackpot here and there!

Not quite, Doc Lawrence.
You may be quite clever in some things you do, but you do not seem to understand some very basic principles when it comes to economics.
Yes to the very opening item you proposed.
No to the remaining questions.
To better understand how it worked and continues to work today, see if you can get hold of a copy of “Australia Imploded!”, by Denis Towers. Although I put it out in 1993, it remains just as pertinent today, worldwide, as nothing was ever followed through on the enclosed proposals – hence, our continuing demise.

[NOTE: This is no sales promotion; the book is available in various Aussie libraries, although others are selling 2nd hand copies over the Net.
There is not the slightest monetary benefit for me: it has been out of print since the following year of print]

@DOC L, I must admit, I cannot hold much on your last entry, and I’m not even living in AmericaLOL! ... but I know many Americans very well here… Plus, let’s face it, it is splashed worldwide ;)

May I say, as just one basic of economics:
An economy must maintain constant expansion if IT is to Live, and if people are to live.
It cannot afford to get bogged down, especially by the depletion of basal natural “economic demand” for goods and services in the economy.
When demand for production falters, especially over some period of time, workers are put off work and bosses Lower wages “IN REAL TERMS” – that is, by comparison with the rise in prices and general costs of living, etc. etc
Other things follow that maintain some semblance of ‘order’, but not until the bad sets in first, and are therefore always Trailing Behind any corrective trend.
So the ‘masses’ still lose out overall.

The VERY Important point I can make here is that the PRIME thing that maintains steady, natural demand for Goods and S [G&S] – especially for ‘the Basics’ is a continuing steady birth rate!
Are you aware that even the newspapers in the 1870’s [not 19… 18..] were claiming that the “world is overpopulated”?? ... that they needed to cut down on having childrenLOL!??

Well… let me tell you… the Prime thing keeping adults in work and that Also keeps economies expanding is an expanding demand base – from people too young to have jobsLOL!
This means that if your Mexicans are having 6 kids per family and Americans are only having 2 per family, Guess which family is actually the better for creating work and jobs and expanding the economy generallyLOL!!! HaHa!

Need I say more??

I think @DominicX is right that when it comes to things like scholarships for school it should be based on need, not by minority status.

@tinyfaery I had heard what you mentioned about UC getting rid of affirmative action. Here is my question, are they now choosing students who are the most qualified, meaning highest SAT/ACT scores, grades, etc.? Or, are they actually choosing white kids over minorities who have equal qualifications?

My father, who is a sociologist, said back in the day when he looked at this type of data, that black students who had the exact same educational opportunities as their white counterparts as a whole scored lower on tests. He had no answer for why. This data may not be valid still, it might have changed, I don’t know.

It would also be interesting to know, if the minorities are let in with lower grades, do they catch up while in college and perform at the same level as their white counterparts? Or, do they continue to lag behind? I have no idea what the answer is.

When I was in college Asian students were annoyed that minorities could get into the engineering school with a lower GPA, but Asians were excluded from that. They felt they were minorities too, why should they not qualify for the exception?

@JLeslie Minorities do not, for the most part catch up according to Thomas Sowell who studies this sort of thing. Indeed he points out that minorities that go to more intensive universities because of some variety of quota system often don’t graduate because they are out of their league – but would do quite well in a university that was a somewhat less demanding. Note that I am not saying that minorities can’t compete. What I am saying is that a college with rigorous courses that only lets in people with certain SAT scores but makes an exception for – just for example Lithuanian-Americans – should not be a surprised when Lithuanians tend to flunk out at a greater rate than the general population.

Asians kick ass in school because their cultures (broadly speaking) strongly support studying and scholastic success. Perhaps in a few generations they’ll be properly Americanized and can start sucking like most of the rest of us.

@Factotum That is what I assumed, that they don’t do well in college if they are not really qualified. I realize why the Asians kick ass, but at my school at the time, one of the Asian kids wanted to get into the engineering program and just missed with his GPA, so the topic came up, he wanted to be counted as a minority. He had a point.

So, back to the point that we probably should not make exceptions, it might be setting people up to fail. And, the point about black people not performing as well, I think we need to take that the cultural differences make a lot of difference.

@JLeslie Bingo!! A good look at what I am talking about, this Asian kid goes up head-to-head with everyone else, but when he don’t measure up he then plays the “Minority Card” and gets his point and thus his seat in class at that college; a seat somone who DID pass with high enough SAT scores should have had but won’t. It is flawed, you have people gaming AA and it make victims of people who would not be as Factotum pointed out. Can you imagine if other entities worked like that? Because you want to try to appear fair you are going to have pilots who hold the lives of hundreds of people in their hands to not have hands but hooks, or to be deaf and not be able to communicate by radio as well or hear alarms or sounds that are not right? What about having Little People as firefighters? Do you have dual equipment and less standards for them in cases of who they can get from a burning building? That would be like allowing old people with dementia to race NASCAR, whould it be a big surprise when they don’t have the skill to win?

@Hypocrisy_Central FYI: If I remember correctly the Asian kid did not get in, because he was not allowed to use the minority card. Just to show some empathy, if you made me vote on the issue, I vote to do away with affirmative action, but if I had a child he/she would be hispanic, and I would use all laws and advantages I could while the advantages are in place. It is a matter of fairness. Which is what you are pointing out I think.

So, I have a question: does it concern you that black people don’t perform as well as a group academically?

@JLeslie I would use AA because it is there, you don’t not kick the field goal because you are 4th and 3, or reject the safety because the guy slipped trying to get from the endzone. I would rather it not be an option to use just because of what skin I was born in. Do you pass up a deduction on your taxes because you have kids or bought a house because the condo owner don’t get it? I think not.

I am concerned about the under performance of Black children in schools but I see it as more of a fincance money thing. That is why I favor school vouchers for EVERY STUDENT to go to ANY school. Let the money be attached to the student not the school. I believe that way schools would have to up their game and not just “get by”. If they did not strive for smart curriculum and engaged and crack teachers they would not get students eager to take classes there, and if they did do that, many students wanting to come there. Poor schools would die (as they should) like dinosaurs in natural selection.

@Hypocrisy_Central I do think many things can be attributed to socio-economic reasons, much more than race, but the studies I spoke of were demonstrating that black children with the same academic opportunties tested worse than whites in general. Basically saying school vouchers is not the fix. I think the schools are less to blame then the families and communities.

Then I am back to the culture within the communities. I guess I am talking about lower income though? I am really not sure? I grew up in a very diverse environment, my high school was 40% minorities, I don’t know if one group did much better academically than another in my high school specifically, we were almost all middle class.

I have said many times how frustrated I am with teen pregnancy in the minority communities, high school drop out rates, and more. I know I am getting off your main topic. But, I am always curious to know what black people think about these things and how to fix them.

My understanding is that black children’s performance in school is quite similar to white children’s performance when you control for fatherlessness which is a problem that affects many children but affects more American black children per capita than other American children by a significant amount.

It’s not the only factor but it is a significant and nearly impossible to address factor.

Are you all sure how affirmative action works? In the UC system, so many spaces were saved for minority applicants that didn’t necessarily have the same GPA’s or test scores, but they were good enough. No way a a school would waste time and money on an applicant that cannot do the work. White people were pissed because they might have had a higher GPA or test score than the minority who was admitted. It DOES NOT mean that affirmative action admits students who can’t do the work.

Schools clearly do waste time and money on applicants that cannot do the work, else there would be no remedial classes – a relatively new thing at the collegiate level by the way – and graduation rates would be considerably closer to 100%.

Affirmative action does admit students who can’t do the work. It also admits students who can. In no way am I saying that every minority in college who enters under affirmative action is going to fail. But more are going to fail than the rest of the student body.

There are no remedial classes in any CA state school.

Plus, there’s a lot more reasons why minority students sometimes do not do well in college. People know where and when they are not wanted and looked down upon.

@tinyfaery Were they looked down upon? Actually treated differently and not included? You wrote above I spent the next 5 years watching the campus homogenize and the aptitude of the students decrease. UCLA went from a vibrant, diverse campus to a boring and soulless place to study and do research. I took from your statement that the student body appreciated the diversity.

I look white, but I am not. Most of my friends were not white and could not pass. UCLA is full of spoiled white and asian kids from the Valley who drive BMW’s and have the all the niceties. It’s not easy for a person who has to take the bus, doesn’t have the right backpack or shoes. The whole environment was very superficial. In my classes, it was usually the non-whites who were able to contribute something more than the typical.

@tinyfaery I see. Do you have a personal interview when you apply? Face to face? Does admissions know if people are white, black, etc. when they apply, or maybe just able to guess by someone’s surname, or first name for that matter? I’m just wondering if they are really giving a preference to admitting whites and asians, or if they are looking at test scores, GPA’s and essays only.

No interview. I’ve been out a college for a few years now, so I am not sure how admissions are done, but with no AA, I can’t see how they can base acceptance on anything other than what is on paper.

@tinyfaery So then isn’t the playing field level? Everyone has an equal chance?

Umm… CA schools are not all the same. Some kids graduate with over 4.0’s because they have AP classes, they can attend community colleges and get college credit when other cannot. Some kids have access to SAT prep and tutors for free. Where is the level playing field you speak of?

@tinyfaery I have attempted to write three answers to your question, and I keep erasing. I find myself having difficulty, because your comment is really about how unequal things are before you ever get to the application for college. I don’t know how to solve the problem. You have probably seen me write before that I want money dumped into the high schools; that I am much more concerned about 15 year olds than a 4 year old, and I think “no child left behind” is ridiculous and a waste of time. You’re right, it isn’t perfectly level, but I think it is more level than not. Maybe I am wrong. Are you saying that not all schools have AP courses available? Or, math through Calculus? Spanish speaking people should have an advantage on vocabulary on SAT’s, and as long as they have gone to school here from grade school their grammar has as good a chance as any other American. The Asians do it, even if they grow up poor, they are able to do it. We have to ask ourselves why?

Side note: When I took an AP course the highest I could get was a 4.0, like any other course. I guess it has changed??

Oh, my. You are naive. Read Jonathan Kozol’s Savage Inequalities. Really, anything by him, but specifically this one, then get back to me.

Here’s his Wiki.

I just think everything is true. I think it is true there are inequities (as I said I want to put money into the schools to help the preparation before getting to the college application to make things more equal), and I think it is true that when minorities are given the same chance, certain groups still underperform (groups, averages, obviously individually some will perform equally or better). According to the stats @Factotum and my father have mentioned. I am willing to accept your premise, but that does not exclude mine, that there are cultural difference contributing to success.

My girlfriends sells computer software to public schools in Michigan. She says the inner cities schools have more money and more technology than many of the other schools out in the country. Still, the inner city has more trouble, lower scores, more drop outs. I know this contradicts what your link says. It may vary greatly by state. Also, making the schools perfectly equal academically does not cure safety problems, violence, and family problems that contribute to a students ability to study. Not to mention teenage pregnancy http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/2006/09/12/USTPstats.pdf see page 4.

My father grew up in a bad part of the Bronx, he was very very poor, child of immigrant parents, and his father was mentally ill. Of course this is years ago, so schools may have changed. Anyway, he did not learn to read until 3rd grade (you may have heard me tell this story before) by jr high he was on level and in High School he was in an excellerated program graduating at age 16. He went to city college for free, and later on scholarship for his PhD at Wharton (he was offered a fellowship at Yale as well). He was smart, and surrounded by smart friends who were education minded, so even though the school system failed him early on, he succeeded. I think the biggest factors for his success was that NY had a decent education system, opportunity to specialize in his interests, and the opportunity for free college education. So, I think we are agreeing that the opportunities in high school matter, but the kids have to utilize the opportunity. I have heard that charter schools that fill up with minority students are not doing as well as hoped around the country. I also found this article http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/web/la-oew-shaffer12feb12,0,3463267.story that you might be interested in. I just saw your governor on TV saying that Cali just passed a law so parents can move their children easier to a different school if they are unhappy, that previously you needed the approval of the principal, who never wanted to sign off because they lost money, that should be a good move.

Another story. My husband was raised in Mexico, and a couple of years of high school in a small town in Texas. His parents sent all three children to private schools (except for those two yers in Texas for my husband) and his parents showed obvious concern that they received a good education. His brother did not finish high school, his sister dropped out of college within the first year. My husband has his masters. The biggest difference I can see in them is my husband was determined to get away from his family and be independent, he decided the best way to be independent was financially independent starting with getting an education. The other two bought into the cultural idea of being with their parents until they were married and “worked” for their father in his business, until his sister got married and leftthe country and his brother in his mid 30’s finally moved in with his partner at the time and left his parents home and his fathers business. Eventually the businesses went went bankrupt. My husband was criticized for being a gringo and not caring about the family.

I don’t think it has anything to do with the capabilities someone is born with (if so very little), I think it is easily 90% environment. So your point is valid, but we cannot ignore other things that might be affecting these stats. I once heard Bill Cosby say that it is true it is still not equal for us (meaning black people) but that cannot be an excuse, we cannot blame everything on the inequality.

@tinyfaery There are in fact remedial classes in CA University.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-03-16-remedial_x.htm

@JLeslie I am happy you brought up those few points, (clapping with smiles) there are going to be students from the “wrong side of the tracks” always. What happens at home or outside the school should have no barring on what the schools does other than giving them the best chance f they want to take it to get an education and escape that neighborhood. If that logic were used society would not want teen mothers who are more likely to drop out to affect the bottle line in scores etc. They would make sure teens did not become mothers even if it meant penalizing those to ignorant, stupid, or dumb enough to avoid it.

Allowing parents to shuffle their kids to better schools, that would be a waste of time if what goes on at home or in the “hood” had that much pull on how they succeeded or not. But if it does help them get a leg up by going to the “better” schools then that is another reason all schools should be on a voucher system. Principals won’t have to worry about anything more than making the school better and more fun. The schools that do that job better is the ones who will have students beating a path to the door, those schools that fail to muster up and give a darn will go by way of the dinosaurs. The teachers might actually go that extra yard if they thought not doing it might mean a decline in enrollment that might place their job in jeopardy. Schools will have to compete and come up with innovation and a better education “product” than the school down the way the same as big box department store has to offer you better merchandise at a better price to get your money from your pocket to their register; if not, you are spending your money somewhere other than there.

Pointing out the plight of your father, parents would be free to seek any school that can best serve their child be he/she has Asperger’s syndrome, is wheel chair bound, dyslexic or whatever. The money will follow the child and it is up to the school to cater to them not the parent and child be at the mercy of how good the school is and have that dictate how much money the state wants to toss their way.

@Factotum #1: That article is 5 years old. #2 I meant in the UC system. (I was talking about UCLA if you remember.) Sorry about that.

@JLeslie You can never identify the norms by pointing out the exceptions. I AM the exception. I am still the only person in my family to have graduated from college. The majority of the people I grew up with still live in that barrio and have not made much of their lives, and their children aren’t doing any better.

My final statement: There is no such thing as a level playing field. From @Factotum‘s article, “You take the right courses and you get a B or an A in it, you get admitted to college and you’re not ready,” he said. “It’s not the students’ fault.” Children are not given the same opportunities to learn and until that is the case there must be some sort access for those who want to learn, who want to try.

@Hypocrisy_Central I think of vouchers as allowing the money to follow a student to private school. I am hesitant to go for that idea. If you have examples of it working well, I am willing to listen. From what I understand California is allowing students to transfer to a different public school, the money follows the child, but stays within the system. Typically the best schools to handle aspergers, dyslexia, etc are public schools, unless a parent has a lot of money; a lot. The majority of private schools can only handle average to better performing children. We already take care of those children in the public system fairly well I think. I am sure it varies around the country though.

@tinyfaery Honestly, overall I agree with you at the primary and secondary levels of education. I am just pointing out things in addition that I think have an affect. Do you really think state of the art schools and money would make a big impact on the barrio kids? I do agree that having a nice environment to go to every day counts, can affect mood, and give a better sense of self worth to the children, let alone having advance classes for the children who are excelling. But, to Busing was tried for many years to intergrate and most agree it did not really work, both minorities and white people didn’t like it, and then you still have the problem you spoke of, that they will feel looked down on and possibly isolated. And, they still go home to the barrio. Personally, I would be in favor of having/trying public boarding schools, I wonder if that has ever been attempted? Ideally, I want to solve the poverty problem and I hate that in America being poor many times means you live unsafely. It is an embarrassment of the country in my opinion. Most of these problems are more a function of economic situation than race or religion, etc. I believe once each group becomes more “elevated,” the results become exponential with their children and grandchildren.

I wish I had the magic answer, I don’t pretend to, just voicing my observations and opinions.

The WORST thing that has happened recently is the right wing has many saying they want to get rid of public schools, and quite honestly don’t seem to give a shit about minority children. It makes me sick. My exboyfriend said it the other day. He is the only kid to finish high school in his family and he is Hispanic. He is very successful, and is very focused on his childrens education, but somehow he sees logic in what he says. Ugh.

@JLeslie That is why I say ALL of the schools every last one of them should be vouchered to level the playing field. You also level the playing field between students. The student from the affluent family will not be the only one tapped into a good education.

Even if there were still private schools regular schools would get better closer to parity with them. Here is why, you have X amount of dollars that is attached to every student. Sure, that would mean some could use that towards tuition at a private school, but others would choose not to spend money if they can get the same or near the same for free. Public schools will have to focus more on upping their game as to make it more attractive to spend those vouchers with them. They will have to seek to be the better value, those who do not want to spend the extra to go to the private schools will go the better public schools, like getting a Yukon Denale when you can’t afford the Range Rover. It may not close the gap between private and public schools but it will shrink the gap considerably. The more students you have the more the school will have to spend. The more they have to spend the more bonuses the teachers there can earn since it is in part because they are good teachers with interesting classes that students want to come there.

Under a complete voucher system it would not matter what nationality you were because every student of that grade or grade spread would have the same amount of dollars no matter if he was Latino, she was Asian, or Black. Even if their home was in the poorest parts of town they would have equal (or very near to it) as those living in the ‘burbs or out in the countryside.

@tinyfaery I must take issue with the idea of there being no level playing field. A university that gives students grades based on performance is a level playing field. As is any school or sports venue where rules and standards are administered fairly and rigorously.

What you can’t have is equal competitors. Not all graduating seniors are ‘college material’ (however much colleges invent degrees to entice them in). That black seniors are less likely to be ready for college than white seniors (on a per capita basis, etc, etc) is a damn shame and is not easily addressed.

@Hypocrisy_Central Have you seen it work in any community around the country? I am very hesitant to take any money away from the public schools. I would rather try to change the public schools in a different way. Public school is what ensures that the underprivilaged get some sort of education.

@JLeslie I wish there was an example where it was actually used but the moment you say “voucher” people hear a sucking sound and all the money going to private schools. I don’t want to take money out of public schools the money should still be there just attached to the child not the district. But I think of lackluster schools knew that poor grades meant less money and fewer students they would do more to up the learning and make it more fun, and bad teacher will have to buck up or get out.

The poor kids will still have a chance at education but not being hogtied by their district. Instead of only having X amount of dollars to spend which moght be less then if they lived in the ‘burbs they would have equal amount of money spent on their education like the well to do kids. Then it is up to them to sink or swim because they can’t use the fast that they had $75 dollars less spent on them a day than the middle class kids so to speak.

@Hypocrisy_Central Well, if you are ok with keeping the money in the public system, then I am with you. This is exactly what is being done in California now, so we can wait and see what happens over the next couple of years. The money has always travelled with the student, previously the student was not allowed to transfer. I think there is much more than just the vouchers though. We need to get rid of tenure, not give automatic raises based on time in a position, all sorts of bullshit in teaching that is not found in any other industry from what I can tell. And, I think children should be able to graduate early if they have the needed credits (like my mother, father, and I did) because kids who are hating school, but capable, should be able to fast track in my opinion. I did not have to be in a special group like honors or gifted, I just doubled up on English and graduated early. I think this would help children who are bored, or have difficulties with peer pressure, keep them from dropping out knowing the light at the end of the tunnel is near.

Also, if a child transfers schools, they need their own transportation, seems like this would be more difficult in poor neighborhoods. Do you think the kids will be comfortable going to the “better” schools? I think I mentioned that my high school was very diverse, but we were all similar; similar socio-economically. The child you are talking about might have to change to fit in. Did you ever see the movie Spanglish?

And, you still need to solve the cultural problems. Do you agree they exist? It has been discussed on here that poor black girls gain status when they have a baby. If that is true, I think it awful. It won’t matter how good the school is in the neighborhood.

I admit I have not spent a lot of time thinking about helping the kids who are performing, I previously thought more about solving the drop out problem and teen pregnancy. It is probably all intertwined.

@JLeslie I am with you on tenure I think vouchers will handle that matter because teacher who think just because they made it they can slack off might find themselves with empty classrooms and schools that can’t support their salary. The whole school will have to perform well in order to have kids wanting to go there and parents happy to send their kids there.

Kids who don’t have parents that drive or own cars may have a harder time getting to a school they really wanted if that school is more than they can walk and there is not mass transit that services the area, but that is not an unmovable object. Maybe they can ride share or something, but at least they have the shot to do it.

And if all schools were on voucher and the top 5% of the schools in their grade range would get a bonus from the feds I am sure each principle will pull out the stops to try to have the smartest students that performed the best, and you can’t do that with out crack teachers. So the principal, I am sure, will seek to up the efforts of all his/her teachers or carve away the dead weight.

@Hypocrisy_Central But then isn’t there a chance that some of the schools will be very good and some will get worse and worse under this system, and the children at the very bad schools might be stuck? Children are still at the mercy of their parents. If their parents suck they are trapped. What do you think? I guess you are looking to help the ones who show promise, but I am afraid the system will collapse and actually more kids will slip through the cracks. I want to lift everyone up, or at least more of the kids up if possible.

I have no idea if I am right or not.

I am still more worried about the children growing up in a war zone then the school. On the news today it was reported that 4 guns have already been confiscated this year from Memphis schools. There were two school shootings last year. It is ridiculous. The woman who was interviewed by the news reporter (she had called authorities to say she saw a student with a gun just outside of the school property) said it is good they do random checks or the teachers would be in a lot of trouble. WTF?!