Is it discrimination for a job want ad to read, "Wanted, apt manager, non-smoker."?

Maybe because it’s a non-smoking building and since the manager will probably live there, they want a non-smoker.

I can understand people not wanting to hire smokers. Every job I’ve had, people that smoked were given many extra breaks during the day to go out and have a cigarette. how thats fair at all is beyond me….if you can get through the work day without one, then i dont see it as a problem, but i think most smokers CANT, so maybe they’re just trying to make things easier in the first place. i have a low tolerance for cigarette smokers, so this is maybe a little biased.

@Val123
I think you have a point.

No offense to anyone who does, but smokers also often smell of smoke. It doesn’t mean they’re not clean, or their clothes are not clean, but they often do because of their habits, and maybe that bothers them and they don’t want the smell around.

Yes, it’s discrimination.

Does “apt manager” mean you get a free place to live in the building? If so that is kinda like saying we don’t want smokers living here. It probably isn’t a employment thing.

I don’t think that it can be discrimination. Sex, age, culture, creed, religion etc. but the decision to smoke or not hire a smoker is a personal one. One could deny a rental for the same reason and be fully supported by the law.

I think of discrimination as not hiring somebody because of something they cant help, such as gender, age, physical handicap, race, etc. I really don’t think you can categorize this as discrimination.

@SeventhSense you took the words right out of my mouth.

I think they should require that the landlord not smoke in the premises but what he does on his free time should be his own business. However I have worked with people who do smell like ciggarettes but those are usually you extemely heavy smokers.
I smoke and many times people are surprise to learn I do. They usually don’t find out unless I light up around them. I tend to smoke out doors most of the time. And with the exception of one job, (my boss was a chain smoker so it made it hard for me to resist), I never smoked on the job.

Yes it’s discrimination; and it’s legal. Smokers are not under a “protected class” in the U.S.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protected_class

I don’t see the problem with having a smoker working for you, as long as they do it outside on breaks, I see no harm. But if they completely block you from even applying to the job, that shouldn’t be allowed.

It’s not selecting an employee based on something that has nothing to do with job performance.

@deni
slipped ‘em right past that ‘stache

I don’t see where it’s a problem specifying what you expect of an employee. There are too many protected groups. What if you are doing a photo shoot and you only have a size 4 dress for the model and specify that in your ad. Is that discrimination against all of the other women that don’t wear that size? In fact is it discrimination if a guy that can wear a size 4 and he doesn’t get the job?

I am sure that some lawyer would be able to make some case about it. That is why any ad that I put in the newspaper specifies, “no lawyers”.

Aren’t all want ads discriminating?

Of course it’s not discrimination. Smoking is a choice. Discrimination is about physical traits that people are born with or otherwise have no control over. Age, sex, race. Whether you choose to stick tobacco in your mouth and smoke it? No, that’s not discrimination.

If smoking is more important to you than this job, this isn’t the job for you. If it’s not, quit. Pretty simple.

@Ron_C There are too many protected groups.
Yeah, why would anyone need their rights protected?!?!

What if you are doing a photo shoot and you only have a size 4 dress for the model and specify that in your ad.
Such a thing is job specific. If you placed an ad for a fitness instructor or something in that ilk, asking for a nonsmoker would be less of a problem.

The person doing the hiring can make any stipulations they want, as long as they don’t discriminate against the protected classes mentioned above. If you have a problem with the stipulations, don’t apply for the job.

Or in this case, since smoking will kill you and harm the people around you, you could just quit.

There is also the possibility that another person in the office is highly allergic to smoke. (Yes, just the smell from clothes can be bad enough.) At that point, their health becomes more important than your smoking.

Or it could even be possible that the the employer has just recently quit smoking and being around other people who smoke is very hard for them at the moment. It could be any number of reasons. But as people have said above, smoking is not something you are born with, such as race, gender etc are, and therefore cannot be discriminated against. Smoking is a choice that you made/make, and if they don’t like it, for whatever reason, they’re allowed to make restrictions on it.

Technically discrimination, but not the bad kind. It doesn’t infringe on beliefs, nor is it an immutable habit. And it has certain impacts on the health of others.

I once saw a show that people were fired because an office went non-smoking, meaning all employees had to be non-smokers. They were given the chance to quit. I don’t now if it was legal or not? I think if you employ <15 people (maybe that number has changed since I learned it years ago) you can discriminate all you want.

When I was in Cherry Point I lived in an apartment with three buildings. I came home from a night shift to find the middle building in flames. Some nipple head fell asleep smoking in bed. My daughter was sleeping in another building. It could have just as easily been the one we lived in.
Since then I have lived in houses or trailers. I can’t stop other people from doing stupid, potentially life threatening things. It’s a shame that another persons actions can have such a negative impact on so many others. I won’t live in a multiple unit apartment for this reason.
Call me a control freak if you want. If I owned a building and was going to entrust the care of it to someone else, I would want them to be a non smoker. This building is a huge investment for someone, and I’d say if they have the wherewithal and the gumption to make this investment, they have the right to protect it and stipulate anything they damn well want. It’s your right to smoke, it’s his right to protect his investment.
Smokers are statistically proven to take more breaks during the work day, and take more sick time. Smoke if you want to, lord knows I just quit in August. I would never have dreamed of expecting another person to overcome their aversion to the way I smelled when I smoked. I never lit up in a non smoker’s car, and if the wind carried my smoke to a non smoker while outside, I’d have the courtesy to move a bit.
As others have said before me, smoking is a choice. Handicaps, color, race…not so much.

It’s not discrimination, it’s discretion. Not every one wants the health complications that come about because of second hand smoking, ya know?

Race, gender etc. don’t have generally have a health impact on others, but smoking does. I’m pretty sure that whoever placed this ad wants to stay healthy. Is staying healthy a crime? It’s just rude for an active smoker to expect others to mold their lives around to his or her smoking habit at their own risk.

Yeah, what @Spinel said.

Some organizations believe in this. I work for the American Cancer Society and they only hire non smokers. So we’re supposed to say anyway. Right.

Okay, let’s change the ad. What if the ad said “non-drinker” instead of non-smoker? I bet you all would be singing a very different tune.

It may not be technically discrimination but it is pretty damn stupid. Smoking or not smoking has nothing to do with the job.

@Trillian: You know, I was run over when I was 13. I guess that means people should stop driving.

@KatawaGrey I said nothing of the kind. I said that I don’t put myself in a situation where a smoker can have such a negative impact on my life. Did you really see where I wrote that people should quit smoking? I looked and looked. Nope, didn’t find that.
And as it has already been pointed out, it isn’t only the job involved. Why do people feel such a need to take a swipe at others whose opinions differ from their own? Isn’t it enough for you to write your own opinion? And if you must be so pointlessly adversarial, could you at least stay with what I said, and not your spin on what I said?

<—- suing @deni for blatant plagiarism and lurve piggybacking~... damn that sexy mustache

@Trillian: You made a comment about someone setting fire to a building because of a cigarette. Then you said you wouldn’t live in apartment buildings for that reason. My apologies. Perhaps I should have said, “You know I was run over when I was 13. I guess that means I should avoid cars.” Better?

Also, since you pointed out that I am being so pointlessly adversarial, then perhaps I should point out that everyone pointlessly bashes smokers. Sure, cry health problems all you want, but until everyone who hates on smokers is in perfect shape, doesn’t take any kind of drug into their system, and avoids all dangerous behaviors, they’re just damn hypocritical to call smokers out.

Also, you ignored the rest of my comment. How would you have responded if the ad had asked for a non-drinker?

In all honesty, this comment is not meant to be snide. You have been typing a long time and I am very interested to read your response but I have to go to bed now so I look forward to reading it in the morning!

@KatawaGrey well, I don’t drink, so… what do you want? Why do you feel that others HAVE to have your opinions? If being hit by a car has not changed your life, congratulations. Does that mean that I’m not entitled to make decisions about my life based on my own experiences without reference to your opinion? And your apologies are not necessary. If you choose to take offense at what I say, that is certainly your option.
I already said that I just quit smoking. When I did smoke I certainly never imposed it on non smokers, and I never whined about others negative feelings about smoke. Nobody here was “calling smokers out”. We all have opinions about the smell of cigarette smoke whether or not is is health related. Are you saying that I can’t dislike the smell of smoke if I’m not in perfect shape? “Everyone pointlessly bashes smokers.”? Come on. It’s not libel to state the truth. The truth is that smoke from really any source stings the eyes, irritates the mucosal linings, causes coughing and and is unpleasant. Avoid all dangerous behaviours? Like what? Driving? Slipping in the shower? What do you expect people to do, stay home in bed? AH! That’s dangerous too isn’t it? Remaining inert could lead to being overweight. But exercise could be dangerous as well… Do you not see the fallacy of your contention? People have a right not to like the smell of cigarette smoke regardless of what you think of their lifestyles.
And you ignored the rest of MY comment. Why does it mean so much to you that someone has a different opinion from your own? Why are you so bothered that other people have a differing opinion? You have a right to like smoking, others have a right NOT to. It’s really that simple. Get over yourself. And stop whining about people hating on smokers. There are a lot of you out there to talk with. “Hate” on non smokers with them if it makes you feel better. You choose to smoke, others choose not to.

@SeventhSense <3 ;)

Did you call your attorney?~

@Sampson maybe you didn’t understand. I think crime line rape, murder, assault and battery, should be severely no matter what race, creed, or sexual orientation of the victim. It the person committing the crime is a repeat violent offender, the person needs to be taken off the street and under government control for a very long time. There is no difference, as far as I am concerned, in the victims that makes the crime worse.

These categories do more to separate us than protect us. Do you really think the KKK or a bunch of drunks in the bar think about “enhancements” when they decide to attack someone?

@Ron_C You are confused about the meaning of “Protected Groups”. You’re under the incorrect presumption that this has something to do with hate crimes. It does not.

A protected group is one which the law says you may not discriminate against. Not one that the law says you get a higher penalty if you commit a crime against. You are not allowed to use membership in these groups (age, sex, race, etc) as a factor in deciding whether or not to hire an individual for a job, grant a loan, etc. That is what is meant by “protected group”. It has nothing to do with victims of a crime.

You wrote Of course it’s not discrimination. Smoking is a choice. Discrimination is about physical traits that people are born with or otherwise have no control over. Age, sex, race. I never though of it that way. Is that why people want homosexuality to be considered something you are born with? For legal protection? I think they are classified as a hate crime under the law if someone attacks a gay person. But, I realize protected groups are not the same as hate crimes. Anyway, I have always been a little annoyed that it is important to some that people are born gay. I think whether born gay or it is a choice it shouldn’t matter to anyone or the legal system. If two adults want to be together for whatever reason, why is it anyone elses business. I had thought the born gay movement was to counter the religious people, to argue it was God given, but with your statment I realize that it also can have a legal reason.

Of course it is discriminatory. But, we discriminate lawfully every day of our lives. If we didn’t we would each meet an untimely death. Post the damn ad and forget it. We would all be better off if we simply used good judgment and said to hell with political correctness..

Here’s my view. When people try it out, it’s a choice. When they stick with it, it becomes a habit. Over the years it becomes a disease, at least for those smokers who can’t quit despite all their best efforts. More and more medical experts think that the smoking habit eventually becomes a chronic disease. And there’s no easy cure.

People also have asthma, diabetes, far-sightedness or high blood pressure. Some have more severe handicaps. Should companies only hire people without diseases? Of course not! It would be irresponsible. Everyone can contribute.

If managers are worried about the extra time needed outside the building there are two things to keep in mind:

1) In larger companies smokers are well connected. They have good internal networks and know what’s going on in other departments

2) Modern companies use flex time and self recording of time sheets. Smokers can easily take out the breaks and leave the office 30 minutes later to make up for the extended breaks

I’m a non smoker by the way, and am in favor of smokers lighting their cigarettes in places where no one else is harmed.

Wow. Looky what I did and I wasn’t even here!

I’ve read through the discussions, and, well, I smoke and no one has ever complained that I smell like smoke. Perhaps because I don’t smoke in my house, therefore the smell doesn’t saturate my clothing and hair.

But to pick up on what others are suggesting, what if the ad read, “No gays,” or “No one with long hair,” (“Long haired, hippy freaks need not apply!”) “No obese people”....I think there could maybe be valid health reasons about the smoking but, geez. Seriously. Who ever got sick just from being around someone who had a cigarette 30 minutes ago?

@MrItty I’m not confused. When you have a protected group, hate crime enhancements follow. What protected group does not have a “hate crime enhancement” if someone does violence against them?

@Val123 The laws for discrimination don’t apply to very small businesses, so he can do whatever he wants if he is only employing an apartment manager for his building. He can also refuse to employ a black person, a Hispanic person, a blue-eyed person, there are no quotas or protections really. Here is a link I found http://smallbusiness.findlaw.com/employment-employer/employment-employer-discrimination/employment-employer-discrimination-preventing-faq.html#58934837-CD19-4791-9DF8D61566053326 I thought it was <15, but this implies <5 employees.

@Val123 – People are not perfect. Non smokers have got plenty of other flaws.

@Ron_C Age. Gender.

The only “hate crimes” I’ve ever heard spoken of are against a specific race or sexual preference or sexual identity.

You are, in fact, confused. The fact that you think you’re not doesn’t actually change that.

@Val123 People don’t tell you that you smell because A) they don’t know you well enough to feel comfortable telling you that, or B) they know you well enough but are too polite. I assure you, all smokers smell of smoke.

Being gay is not a choice. Smoking is. Being gay has no impact on those around you. Smoking does.

No long hair is in fact a perfectly valid job restriction that I’ve seen enacted plenty of times. Most often in restaurants, but also in manufacturing areas that deal with machinery in which long hair poses a saftey hazard.

The health reasons are not the only ones. We who do not smoke find the stench of it fairly disgusting, and in general don’t want to be forced to deal with the scent, regardless of whether or not it makes us physically ill. That you choose to smoke is your business. That I choose not to associate with a foul odor is mine.

@MrItty I didn’t say that there were hate crime laws to protect the elderly, smokers, or even fat people. I am just saying that making a group separate from society is, sometimes, the trigger for acts against them..

Have you ever been stuck in the middle seat between two 300 pound people? I felt less than charitable towards them. If they were a protected group, some people would act out against them. That is what making smokers a special group could initiate.

By the way, why aren’t fat people required to buy an extra seat. I think it is wrong that they infringe on my comfort. I am claustrophobic, what if I have an attack on an airplane? Will it be my fault, or the fat person’s?

@Ron_C Yes you did. You in fact, specifically asked “What protected group does not have a “hate crime enhancement” if someone does violence against them?” And I answered.

Fat people are, in fact, required to buy an extra seat on most airlines. So I have no idea what point you’re trying to make. (for example, here is Southwest’s policy)

@MrItty I teach. Substitute K-12. Trust me. The kids wouldn’t hesitate to tell me, especially if they thought they could use that as a crack in my armor! And I would think some of the teachers and principals just might say something too. However, not one, over 5 years, has EVER said anything.

@JLeslie Well, actually, anyone can discriminate, but to advertise it? I mean, if the ad had read, “Apt manager wanted, no Blacks….” that would be stupid.

@Val123 I would agree no one would print “Irish need not apply” anymore. My aunt always says, “I feel like a criminal.” Because in the last 20 years people hate smokers and she can’t smoke anywhere anymore. I guess no one is going to defend a smoker like they would someone who is black, or fat, or gay, so it seems more permissable. Smoking is an addiction contrary to the other things named, so I guess no one is worried about being PC?

@JLeslie I do understand the argument. It’s just…it’s getting so damn old. I don’t understand this push on to make smokers feel…like total outcasts! People to be shunned like lepers. What the hell business is it of anyone else’s if I smoke? I totally understand not smoking around others in the same room, but so many places have dirty, crappy, airless rooms designated for the “nasty smokers” while on the other hand they have aesthetically pleasing, airy places set aside for people to get nasty drunk and obnoxious in. WTH?

There are so many worse toxins out there than someone who might simply smell like smoke.

@Val123 People drinking next to me has no effect on me. People smoking next to me does. Both health and odor. How is that difficult to understand?

You know when you accidentally pass gas, and it stinks, if there are people around, you immediately apologize (or at least try to pretend like it wasn’t you) and are suitably emabarrased? Smoking stinks 10x worse than that, and yet smokers for some reason feel no remorse or embarassment about it. I will never understand that.

@Val123 My aunt feels the same way. I am not trying to be argumentative, if that is how I came across? Not trying to justify it, just writing how I think people generally perceive smoking opposed to race or religion. Seems they don’t see smoking as rising to the level.

@MrItty I think it depends on the smoker. Some are considerate, some aren’t.

@JLeslie the ones who argue that they should be allowed to smoke whereever, who can’t understand why someone would want to “discriminate” against them by not hiring them… aren’t.

Hmm. Well, with this particular job I can understand for sure. Because usually when someone is smoking in their apartment we can smell it in the hall and maybe in the next apartment. If the air conditioning system picks up air from all over the building and spreads it around, it might be even worse. I figure if you smoke enough we might have to paint your apartment more often, and maybe some other costs.

But I think @Val123 just a few posts up was questioning how bold it is to actually print it in the ad. I figure better to know up front, so you don’t waste your time applying if you do smoke.

@MrItty For the 1000th time, I totally agree with the courtesy of not smoking around other people, OK? I’m not whining that we should be allowed to smoke any where we want! I don’t mind going to a land far, far away and smoking….but why should that area set aside for us be cold, uncomfortable, nasty and unventilated?

@MrItty I am a courteous smoker, and if I had been the least bit interested in that job (which I’m not) he would have lost the chance to have a hard working, dependable, honest, reliable manager. I smoke, I teach during the day without smoking. My smoking has never affected any job I’ve ever had. There have been no conflicts or complaints.

@JLeslie Well, I don’t know the whys and wherefores of the stipulation. I believe most apartments now a days have a no smoking inside the building rule, which is fine. Everybody just goes outside. If the ad read, “No smoking in the building,” well, duh. But it didn’t. It read as though smoking would somehow affect the employee’s ability to do their job or something. It just smacked of discrimination, legal or not.

@Val123 Apologies for the confusion regarding the quality of the smoking area. I misunderstood. That being said, I would think you should be grateful for anything that makes smoking less attractive, as it should only help further your motivation to quit.

@Val123 If you are, as you claim, apparently one of the infintesimal number of smokers who don’t actually smell like smoke, then how would he know?

@MrItty: When someone drinks next to me, it does bother me. I can smell it and as that person drinks more, they get louder and more raucous. A drinker expects me, a non-drinker, to accommodate them. Since I don’t drink, I am expected to drive the drinkers home. If I tell them they are drinking too much, I am considered rude. If I leave their presence, I am considered rude. When I kiss my boyfriend after he’s had something to drink, he tastes like alcohol which is an absolutely vile taste.

Good for you if drinkers don’t bother you. Smokers don’t bother me. However, I am much nicer to drinkers even though I find it to be a disgusting habit.

@MrItty My point exactly. I just wish I knew his actual reasons for specifying “non-smoker.” He probably narrowed his potential applicants drastically!

As to your other point, no, I’m not grateful for the rudeness and the insult involved in the message that sends me, and it will do nothing to “motivate me to quit.” If anything, it gets my back up. There are a lot of bad habits out there, but for some reason the smokers are the biggest target, even it they aren’t smoking around anyone. Hell, we’re insulted worse than people who text and drive! However, I do have to admit that my smoking has decreased quite a bit because of the new laws, and that’s good.

@KatawaGrey You seem to be complaining about your friends and relatives drinking. They’re your friends and relatives. You’re choosing to associate with them. If they’re assholes when they drink, stop associating with them and the problem is solved. If you’re sitting next to some random drunk guy in a bar, you can move down three barstools and the problem is solved. Smoking permeates the room or outdoor area, and affects you whether it’s being done by the people you choose to assoicate with or not. The two are no where near the same.

@Val123 I theorize again that you are in the vast minority of smokers. It is quite likely a lot easier to say “No smokers” than it is to say “No smokers unless you don’t smoke anywhere near work, never smell like smoke, and don’t require extra smoking breaks”. I’m sorry that you as the minority feel like you’re being unjustly left out. Your fellow smoking brethren have ruined it for you.

As to the other point, I have to laugh. “If anything, it gets my back up”. Hahahahah. Seriously? That’s your response? “Grrrr, I hate that you give us such crappy areas to smoke in! I’m gonna get back at you by smoking more, thus ostracizing myself more, confining myself to the crappy area more, and killing myself more quickly!”. Well more power to you, my friend.

Smoking is by far the largest “bad habbit” that has any affect whatsoever on the people not choosing to engage in the bad habbit. Smoking has been around forever, the effects have been known for decades, and people doing it now should know better. In contrast, texting plus driving – while phenomenally stupid and dangerous to all around you – has only been around for a few years, and so we’ve not yet had time to tell idiots how idiotic they’re being. But the laws are already being passed to punish the stupid for being stupid.

@Val123 I think you can apply if you will not smoke on the premises, unless the employer is not hiring smokers for reasons of medical insurance he provides or something like that. If you were interested in the job (I know you aren’t) you could clarify that during the interview. I always answer I don’t drink alcohol, but if somone wants me to taste a drink, it is not that it never ever touches my lips. We are not sure of the actual requirements by how the ad is written.

@MrItty: Good point, I’ll stop hanging with my friends and family, and going to weddings and birthday parties and restaurants and anyone’s house that has alcohol… You’re determined to hate smokers so I’m just going to let you be. I’m really sorry about that because you’re missing out on some really great people by vilifying them before you even get to know them.

@KatawaGrey You 100% miss my point. I was not seriously suggesting you should stop hanging out with your family and friends. I was pointing out to you that there is a measure of your own choice and preference involved when drinking bothers you. There is no such (or at least far less of a) choice involved when people smoking bothers you.

I do not hate smokers. I hate the sense of entitlement they feel and the lack of understanding they have. I do not hate the people themselves.

@MrItty: You don’t seem to know very many considerate smokers which is too bad. My mother never smokes around other people unless she knows they smoke too. Even if people are in her home, she asks them if the smoke bothers them before she smokes. If it does, she’ll smoke outside. Most smokers I know are like that. Smokers don’t generally have a sense of entitlement, but people seem to think they do because they want to be able to smoke in all the same places that, for example, people can drink in. If you met my mother, you might be able to smell the smoke on her, but you probably wouldn’t see her smoke because you are a non-smoker and she bends over backwards to make sure her smoking doesn’t bother anyone. That doesn’t stop people from coming up to her making the choice to walk into the cloud of smoke, mind you and telling her how stupid she is. You keep saying that non-smokers aren’t able to avoid to cigarette smoke, but what makes cigarette smoke any less disgusting than car exhaust? I can’t walk down a sidewalk without being exposed to that. I have a friend who would get very ill from eating any kind of dairy or egg product, and she has to go out of her way to make sure the chef at the restaurant she’s at doesn’t put butter on her pasta. Does that mean I shouldn’t walk outside or she shouldn’t eat out?

@KatawaGrey You’re right, I don’t know many “considerate” smokers. More’s the pity. You and I are going to have to agree to disagree that they don’t have a sense of entitlement. You used your example of being able to smoke at the same places where drinking is allowed to support your argument. I feel it rather supports my argument, for all the reasons I listed above regarding the differences between smoking and drinking. I don’t see us meeting eye to eye on that one.

Car exhaust is an unfortunate side effect of driving a car. A virtual necessity in today’s world. Cigarrette smoke is an unfortunate side effect of sticking a rolled up lump of tobacco in your mouth and lighting it on fire, because you feel the need for an external element to “calm” yourself (or whatever reason smokers give for smoking). No where near a necessity. A choice.

I have absolutely no idea what kind of comparison you’re trying to make between the dairy-intolerant and smoking. Can you please clarify?

Throwing their cig butts on the sidewalks and streets bothers me more than when they light up.

@MrItty: My point with the example of my friend being allergic to eggs and dairy is that she still goes out in the world and eats at restaurants even though eggs and milk are in a lot of stuff. She doesn’t have to, but she does. You don’t have have to go into areas where people are smoking, but you do.

@KatawaGrey they are not the same.

@KatawaGrey I don’t see how that’s a valid analogy in any way shape or form.

She can go into a restaurant, order her dairy-free meals, and enjoy the hell out of them all the while people all around her are enjoying the hell out of their dairy-un-free meals. A non-smoker cannot go into a room where someone is smoking and not smell the smoke.

@MrItty What? Sense of “entitlement?” What? I’m entitled to smoke! I have no disagreement with smoking away from the public, so what sense of “entitlement” are you talking about? What are we thinking we should be entitled to that’s unfair?

@Val123 I am not talking about you specifically. I am talking about smokers in general. You will note that nowhere in here did I say ”@Val123 thinks has a sense of entitlement”.

The sense of entitlement that smokers in general feel includes but is not limited to:
* additional breaks at work
* producing an obnoxious odor with no guilt or embarrassment
* littering casually in every location
* flagrantly ignoring “No Smoking” postings
* laws prohibiting “discrimination” against their choice and addiction

But can we really call discrimination a hate crime? Certainly, it can lead to so-called “hate crimes”, but it could just as easily lead to other things. Take our smoker, for instance: all of the anti-smoking “discrimination” could get him to quit, leaving him to lead a longer, healthier life.

@MrItty sorry it took so long to get back to your, I am trying to get a balky control system to talk to it’s various parts. Maybe I wasn’t clear. Protected groups first get their status, for race, sex, whatever. Then if one of the group is attacked for whatever reason, there soon comes some sort of enhanced punishment. It might not even be official. You get a greater punishment if you hit an elderly woman or pregnant mother than you do if you give a 24 year old college kid a bloody nose.

As for the fat people on airplanes, I recently made 4 trips on Continental and they had several people that slopped over the seat sides and some poor slob in the middle. Southwest may have that rule but if others, specifically Northwest, USAir, and Continental, they ignore it.

@MrItty OK, I must ask you…what specific incidents are you referring to when you say “most” smokers feel a sense of entitlement? Is that just a sterotypical, knee-jerk sentence with no real proof to back it? Or…well, what examples can you give me?

From where I sit, I just don’t see THAT many smokers complaining about not being allowed to smoke in public places any more. I don’t see many being upset about it at all. IRL, I don’t hear any smokers complaining other than maybe a disgruntled, “Ah. Can’t smoke in here now!” and that’s the end of it. So…please. Examples.

@Val123 drive down the highway for a couple hours and count the number of bumper stickers you see that say “At least I can still smoke in my TRUCK!!”. Look at the number of posts on Q&A sites that complain about not being able to smoke in location X. Walk down a city street and count the number of butts on the sidewalk. Stand outside an office building and watch how many folks leave work to have a few drags. Go to an amusement park and look at how many people are smoking outside the Designated Smoking Areas.

I think we are both biased, in completely opposite directions. You, a smoker, don’t notice your fellow smokers doing these things. I, an avid non-smoker, notice them more often than is realistic for the sample size. Reality lies somewhere in between us.

@Ron_C you’ll forgive me if I’ve lost control of what your original point was. Do I understand correctly that you are against “Protected Groups” as an entire concept? That people should be allowed to discriminate on the basis of race, color, creed, gender, and age? That allowing that discrimination is the lesser evil when compared to higher punishments for crimes against those groups?

If the airline doesn’t follow its own rules, you should be complaining to the airline. I don’t know what else to tell you about it. You said “Why don’t they have to purchase an extra seat.” The rules say they do. Complain to whomever fails to enforce the rule, don’t complain that no such rule exists.

Hope you’re having fun guys ~

@Adagio Shhhh! The debate is still in session…wait until the lunch recess. ;)

@Val123 Plenty of smokers don’t give a shit about if other people are inhaling their smoke. Every time a state outlaws smoking in restaurants a whole bunch of people cry out against it. I still see people putting cigs out on the street or emptying their frikkin’ car astrays out in a parking lot! There are also a lot of smokers who do care. It’s not one or the other. My husband is much more sensitive to smoke than I am. If we are sitting al fresco and the table next to us is smoking it ruins his meal a little, worse if we are inside. Smoking is not the same as discriminating race, religion, gender, etc. There is not one protected class or minority status I would not be friends with or spend time with, people are people, but if a person smokes all of the time (I realize you don’t) or drinks too much I am not going to be interacting with them too often.

@JLeslie – To me discriminating smokers is the same as discriminating people who have asthma, diabetes, far-sightedness, hearing impairments or high blood pressure. Nicotine addiction is a chronic disease. More and more medical experts treat it that way.

If smokers could simply stop many would do so, especially when they get older. Most can’t despite their best efforts. When people start smoking, for a certain time it increases their dopamine levels in the brain and you can accomplish more. The trouble begins when people feel uneasy and bad when they don’t smoke. They have to smoke just to feel normal again. It’s a trap. They have to continue to smoke to feel like non-smokers feel all the time.

We should respect it when smokers continue to smoke without causing any harm to anybody else. Throwing butts out of car windows is totally unacceptable.

The real discussion should be about what to tell our kids so they choose not to start smoking. Teach them refusal skills. Create an image that it’s cool not to smoke. I think smokers should visit classrooms and tell kids about their failed efforts to quit. Or if they succeeded tell them how difficult it was.

@mattbrowne Not a single person in the history of the world has chosen to have asthma, diabetes, or far-sightedness. Every single smoker on the planet CHOSE to smoke their first cigarette. And then, after damn near coughing up a lung, the CHOSE to smoke their second one. And their third. And their fourth. And all the ones that came after it, until one day they finally realized they were “addicted”.

Even if you want to make the case that smoking is a “disease”, it’s still a self-inflicted one. You don’t give people benefits for shooting themselves in the foot, even though they’ve suffered a gun shot injury.

@mattbrowne I don’t mean I wont be friends with them, but if they do not limit their behaviors around me I might limit my time with them ( @Val123 says she does limit her smoking around non-smokers, so it would probably be a non-issue). I have a girlfriend who is an alcoholic. She had supposedly been dry for months, but when she came to visit me a severeal months ago she was sneaking drink and one night became totally blitzed. About a year before we had gone out and she was so drunk she threw up all night long in our hotel room, not always making it to the bathroom. Anyway, I told her that I love being with her, and she is welcome to my home any time, but she cannot drink in my house. She can drink all she wants when not around me, I understand addiction and how difficult it is. If she was diabetic, had asthma, hard of hearing, blind, I would never think to say she cannot stay. Not because it isn’t PC, because literally it would not occur to me to limit my friendsship due to one of those impairments.

@MrItty: No one may have chosen to have asthma, diabetes or farsightedness but both asthma and diabetes are not always caused by genetic factors. I don’t know about farsightedness. There is a much higher incidence of asthma among America’s youth today because kids spend a lot more time indoors breathing in dust, dirt and all sorts of other unpleasant things that accumulate in a house. Even cleaning products can contribute to this. Not a one of those kids chose to have asthma, but if they had spent more time outside and less time on their asses in front of the TV, they wouldn’t have gotten it. The same is true of diabetes. Diabetes can be caused by a bad diet or, in some cases, pregnancy. People didn’t choose to have bad diets and the pregnant women who get diabetes certainly didn’t choose to get sick through pregnancy but it still happens. They could have eaten better from the get go.

I think @mattbrowne‘s point was that, yes, people choose to smoke the first cigarette, maybe even the second or third cigarette, but after a very short period of time, it’s not so much choice anymore as it is addiction. When you stop smoking, it’s not fun. Many people gain weight, get short tempered and hack up tar. Also, as @mattbrowne pointed out, they just generally feel awful. You are correct, it was the smokers’ choice to light up that first cigarette just as it was that kid’s choice to stay inside instead of going outside and that diabetic’s choice to eat the ice cream instead of the fat free sherbet. However, it was no one’s choice to get addicted/have breathing problems/be diabetic.

@MrItty You said, “drive down the highway for a couple hours and count the number of bumper stickers you see that say “At least I can still smoke in my TRUCK!!”” I’ve never seen that or any bumper sticker complaining about the smoking issue.

“Look at the number of posts on Q&A sites that complain about not being able to smoke in location X. I guess I can’t recall any posts like that. I did make a post once about it being stupid to make rules you can’t enforce, such as no smoking at the lake! I also threw rounding up cats with no collars into the mix.

Walk down a city street and count the number of butts on the sidewalk. I think it’s stupid to say, “You can smoke in this area” but not provide an ash tray stand! If there is an ash tray, you don’t see butts.

Stand outside an office building and watch how many folks leave work to have a few drags. Well, when I see someone outside smoking, I don’t just assume he or she isn’t on a valid break period. Do you?

Go to an amusement park and look at how many people are smoking outside the Designated Smoking Areas. Uh, I haven’t been to an amusement park in decades, so I can’t address this issue.

Everything you’ve listed is just addressing the fact that Some People Smoke. Some people are rude, as in those who throw their butts out the window. Same kind of rude when people throw their trash out the window. I see that as simply that. Rudeness and littering, not “entitlement.” I don’t see how any of the above = entitlement. We ARE entitled to smoke if we want. We aren’t entitled to affect other people or to litter. But some do, and some non-smokers affect other people in other ways, and a lot of non-smokers litter.

Again, you’re singling out smokers as if they’re all evil and rude, worse than anyone else, and ignoring the “evil” and rudeness of some non smokers.

@Val123 I agree that they should have ash trays in smoking areas, but do you really think it is ok to throw the butts on the ground? You can’t carry it until you find a place to dispose of it? I carry my trash until I find a trash can, I don’t throw it on the street. Do you think a cig butt is different than other types of trash? As I said above, this is probably my biggest pet peeve with smokers, and you are defending it. I would have assumed you did not do this from all of your previous answers above. I don’t think you are evil or rude, but I do think you litter.

@Val123
Bumper Stickers: You’ve never noticed them. I notice them more often. Again, biased in opposite directions

City Street: Who, exactly, is being stupid for not providing an ashtray? How often should they put them out? Every 20 feets? Every 100 yards? Who is the “they” in your mind? Damn near everyone else who has something to throw away seems able to resist the urge to toss something on the street until they find a trash can. If you see someone littering, you react with indignity. Yet Smokers feel there’s absolutely nothing wrong with tossing their butts on the street. It wouldn’t even occur to you to wait until you found an ashtray.

Seeing as I work in an office building, and have been a manager at a previous job, yes, I absolutely assume they haven’t clocked out. Smokers feel entitled to be able to stand outside for 10 or 15 minutes while their non-smoking coworkers are, you know, working.

Go to ANY public area that has a No Smoking Except in Designated Areas rule, and see how many smokers ignore it.

I am not remotely ignoring the evil and rudeness of non-smokers. When non-smokers are evil and rude, people look down on them. When smokers are “evil” and rude, it’s assumed to simply be part of the description of Being A Smoker.

@MrItty – Not true. Many diseases are often the consequence of irresponsible behavior. High blood pressure? Lack of exercise. Adult onset diabetes? Bad eating habits. High cholesterol? Bad eating habits. Didn’t wash her hands after saying hello to Mr. Flu. Measles? Supporter of the anti-vaccine movement. Depression? Childhood trauma. Need I go on?

You mentioned asthma. Let’s take passive smoking. Children whose parents were smoking around them are nearly five times more likely to develop asthma in adulthood. Should companies hire them?

If we exclude smokers from getting employment we also need to exclude people with high blood pressure, diabetes, depression and so on. We should not do this. We should take on the inconsiderate smokers who I think are a minority. You have every right to ask them not to smoke when you are around. But extreme demands will only get you in trouble.

I have an annual pass to Disneyland. People from all over the world visit Disneyland, people from different walks of life, many of whom smoke. Now, there are only 3 places that one can smoke inside Disneyland. They are not convenient places, trust me. One place is even quite hidden, unless, of course, you know your way around the place.

From all my years of being a pass holder, and all the times that I have gone to Disneyland, I rarely see anyone exhibiting the behavior that @MrItty describes with such a venomous tongue. I have rarely witnessed someone smoking in non-designated areas. I don’t see butts on the ground and I don’t witness complaining.

I believe @MrItty has some personal issue with smokers that does not jibe with the actual behavior of most smokers. I use Disneyland as an example because people from everywhere visit and I do not see anything like @MrItty describes.

@tinyfaery I go to Walt Disney World 3 or 4 times a year, and see it all the time. Sorry, you’re simply wrong.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.disney.parks/browse_frm/thread/965de91927dd4ad8/f625ca1b1a8b87a6?lnk=gst&q=smoking#f625ca1b1a8b87a6 here’s one of many many examples.

(edited for correct link)

Florida? That explains it. Cesspool.

@tinyfaery huh? So… California Smokers are A-Okay, but Florida Smokers are rude? Okay then.

Seems like. I don’t see what you describe at all.

Florida is a cesspool in general, not just when it comes to smoking.

@tinyfaery LOL you cracked me up with the cesspool comment! I go to Disney World all of the time, and I have to say I have never seen someone smoke there. I did not even realize there are smoking areas, but it makes sense there might be a few; I mean they don’t want you to leave the park because you need a fix. If @MrItty sees a lot of people around town with a bumper sticker that says At least I can still smoke in my TRUCK!! I’m thinking his neck of the woods has a lot of truck driving, gun toting, my land I’ll build what I want, you can’t make me wear my seatbelt, people around him. But then, it is never good to assume these things. :) Now remember, I am disgusted by people who throw their butts on the ground too, but certainly @MrItty implies it happens all of the time everywhere, and I would say it is not that bad, but remind everyone that @Val123 admitted to doing it, and felt righteous about it, that it was someone else’s fault she throws them on the ground.

@tinyfaery I’m going to DL this September for the half-marathon. I’ll have to remember to take notice if it’s truly better there than it is in WDW.

@JLeslie What? Where did I say I throw them on the ground and feel righteous? Hell, I pick up cigarette butts left behind by other campers at my CAMPSITE, which is way the heck and gone in timbucktwo.

I guess what I’m trying to say, is people who litter, people who are inconsiderate and smoke around others without checking to see if it’s OK, do that because that’s the kind of people they are. It’s not like smoking causes them to be rude. I just feel like @MrItty is judging all smokers by the rudeness of a few. As though only rude, insensitive people smoke.

Once at a grocery store a call went out that there was a major sale on the donuts. Well, I went over that way because it was a really good sale, and it would be a rare treat for my kids to get doughnuts. I planned to pick up three of them, one for each kid. However, when I got there I found that the first people there were really obese, and they flat wiped them all out before anyone else even got a chance to get some. I mean…they weren’t letting anyone else get to the doughnuts. It was like…a feeding frenzy, and it was actually quite disgusting. They were literally taking dozens of donuts at a time! I was standing next to this guy, and we looked at each other, and he said, “I guess some people need them more than others.” I was like, “I guess so!” So, from that, should I assume that ALL obese people are rude and selfish?

@Val123 That story is hysterical and disgusting all at once. You know, I complain that too many people seem to not give a shit about the people around them, they are in their own worlds, self absorbed, with no care for their surroundings. They take forever when others are waiting, leave a mess behind them, and I guess the one I had never thought of, grab all of the donut so no one else can have one. LMAO. Unbelievable! Last time I went to the market with my mom to stock up on german potatoes I can’t get where I live, my mom made me leave two packages on the shelf, because she felt bad if we did not leave any for the next person. She is over the top, but that gives you an idea of how I was raised.

Now, about my accusation, I must have misinterpreted what you wrote, I am glad you corrected me. You wrote: “Walk down a city street and count the number of butts on the sidewalk. I think it’s stupid to say, “You can smoke in this area” but not provide an ash tray stand! If there is an ash tray, you don’t see butts.” I figure when you wrote your reply you meant that if people don’t supply the ashtrays smokers have a right to litter.

@JLeslie that thing in the grocery store was really quite unbelievable!

Actually, mritty wrote “Walk down a city street and count the number of butts on the sidewalk” I just made the observation about the ash trays, or lack of. I don’t like the butts littered all around, and I do NOT understand why ash trays aren’t always provided if you’re in an area (outside) where you are allowed to smoke. Whenever ash trays are provided, you don’t see butts littered everywhere.

And, actually, one of the first things I noticed about my little town was the absolute lack of cigarette butts on the ground! Actually, the total lack of litter altogether was impressive. But, they also have ash tray / trash combos on every block.

As I said I agree there should be ashtrays, but if there is not ashtray provided people need to hang onto the butts until they are able to dispose of them, it is not an excuse to litter. I understand now that you would never do it, throw your butts on the ground. :) Yes, I knew @MrItty Had written the first part. My moms extreme ways on this type of thing drives my dad crazy. If they are in a crowded restaurant with a line of people waiting to be seated, she won’t let him have a coffee after a meal, because the other people will have to wait longer. I think some of it has to do with the fct that she was raised in NYC. In NY you have to be aware of others and follow the “rules” and there are a lot of rules. Don’t stick your feet out in the aisle on the bus or subway so people can get by; move to the back of the bus, so everyone can get on; stand to the right of the escalator, so people who want to walk by can; don’t block the entrance; don’t block the stairs; go as soon as the arrow is green so as many as possible can get thorugh the light; be ready to order when you get to the front of the line, so you don’t hold up the line. Funny that NYers get a bad wrap about being rude, typically I find it is in parts of the country where they have little experience dealing with crowds that I get most frustrated with service and how people interact with each other. But that is going off on another subject.

@JLeslie Well, I’d rather just wait to smoke, or go to my car, rather than stick a stinky butt in my pocket! Although, I have done that on a few occassions.

That’s really interesting about your Mom. And about NYC. I think everyone should be send to NYC for a month for courtesy training! That would make a good question….

And it’s my question, and it’s perfectly fine to get off the subject! I think the smoking thing has about burned up, anyways. :)

ps. i used to throw the butts out the car window, but i quit doing it. last tuesday. i am really sorry i ever did it and i’ll never do it again!

@MrItty All smokers love to spit into faces of children, too. Why haven’t you brought that up?? ~

@Val123 That was brave to admit you throw them out of car windows, we do talk about those people not wanting to dirty their cars and will dirty our streets. You are forgiven.

@Val123 What question would ask related to what I said about NYC?

@Sampson It is my RIGHT to spit in children’s faces! I’m a smoker!

@JLeslie Sniffling. Thank you. It’s not that I don’t want to dirty the car, but the darn ash try gets filled so quickly, and then stuff starts smoldering and all. And throwing them out the window…well, out of sight and all that. But, I’ll just have to empty it out more often.
As to a Q, IDK. Something along the lines of “What kinds of things to you consciously do in consideration of others?” And then tell about your Mom. My answer would be, “I always carry Kleenex for to give to the little children to clean up after I spit on them.” ;)

@Val123 LOL. Hmmm. I think that would be a good Q. My mom also gives away coupons at the supermarket (I do that too), all sorts of stuff. But, you should start the question, its your idea.

@JLeslie It may have been my idea, but it was inspired by YOUR mom! I mean, how do I ask the question then put in all the cool things YOUR mom does when I don’t even know her! It’d look like,
Q: What things do you consiously do out of courtesy for other people coming after you?
Detail: Well, JLeslie’s mom does all kinds of cool things, like, etc.
People are going to be scratching their heads! Then everyone around them will think they have head lice. It could get ugly, woman!!

@Val123 I will give you some credit for the idea :). Another thing my mom would do, always give credit where credit is due. Watch for the question.

@Val123 sorry this is so delayed, and I waivered about whether or not to even bother bringing it up, but when I went to lunch just now, I couldn’t help but notice this after our discussion here recently. You said, some time ago, ”If there is an ash tray, you don’t see butts”

I beg to differ: http://www.flickr.com/photos/9416064@N02/4322957868/sizes/o/

This was taken today, just now, as I was going to lunch. I am standing no more than 5 feet from the nearest ashtray, and I count at least 9 butts on the ground. And the only reason there aren’t more is that my camera doesn’t have a wide-angle lens.

@JLeslie K! (I was going to post it, but put on your avatar when I did! I’ll go look now. :)

@MrItty :) Good show! However, I’d say most smokers put their butts in an ash try if it’s available. If it wasn’t it would be a lot, lot worse (you need to get a picture of the inside of the ash tray, so show how many would probably have been on the ground if not for the ash tray. Muhaaahaaahaaaa! I’m setting you up to get committed!:) Anyway, I’m not saying it doesn’t happen. As your picture shows, it does. I’m saying that not ALL smokers are like that. Not ALL smokers feel a sense of entitlement, as your posts seem to indicate that you feel, just as not ALL obese people are rude, thoughtless and selfish (see example above.)

O wow. I’d forgotten how interesting this had gotten!

Smokers, the scourge of the public. :0
Nothing like the alcholics who get drunk and vomit over balconies onto someone elses property or who are too drunk to find a bathroom they piss in buildings or alleyways or kill people while driving drunk.
Nothing like the people who throw things out their car windows or throw trash all over the beach so it gets carried out with the tide.
Nothing like the vandels who destroy private property.
Nothing like people who rob other people.
Nothing like the people who assualt others just because they can.
My point is not all smokers are rude. Rude people are rude.
Not all smokers go out of their way to destroy things or destroy the health of others by smoking because they feel they are entitled.
Entitled people will do what ever they can an when they can because they feel entitled.
The smokers didn’t invent entitlement. These people where born this way. You don’t have to be a smoker to be rude or feel entitled.

@Pandora I like how you compare smokers to a bunch of people who commit crimes and are punished for them, as that rather proves a point quite opposite to the one I imagine you were intending to prove.

@MrItty Wat?

What part of my statement confused you?

Ah…well, my original intention was to bring this thread to concerned user’s attention, to draw attention to my new question

And I take back my “memory issue” comment…wow. You picked up an old argument like it happened just yesterday! Very good!

As a former smoker, I think it is reasonable to ask that the manager you hire does not smoke. Have you ever entered an apartment or hotel room that was previously inhabited by a smoker? I find the smell as objectionable as uncleaned cat boxes. The smell lingers long after the resident leaves.

I have rejected hotel rooms because of the smell and see that asking an employee to refrain from smoking while on my property is a reasonable request. I expect the same with guests in my house and I’m not paying them. There is no constitutional right to smoke and they are not, nor should they be a protected class. Smokers are a dying minority and it is a horrible way to die.

@Ron_C This is a MANAGER we’re talking about, not an inhabitant. A manager goes in and out of the apartments managing stuff. It’s perfectly reasonable to stipulate that they do not smoke anywhere in the building, much less in other people’s homes…but what kind of person would do that anyway?

My grandparents were “Apartment Managers” They had a company furnished apartment, did maintenance and hired me to cut the grass and trim bushes.

@Dutchess_III in other apartments they had “superintendents” which, to me, is just another name for the same thing. The reason good “managers” for a low price is that an apartment and utilities was a part of the deal. My grandparents had a really good deal because my grandfather had an extremely good job and the only expenses they had were for the car, food, and some really great christmas presents for us grandchildren.

@Ron_C This still makes no sense. So what if the manager gets a good deal on an apartment and lives there? If the rule of the apartment building is “No smoking in the building,” as all of the apartments around here have, the manager just goes outside to smoke along with the other tenants who smoke. The ad just makes no sense. What does smoking have to do with a person’s management abilities?

Oh, I get it now you are thinking that the smoker will go elsewhere to smoke. Look, I smoked for 30+ years and would frequently bend the rules. Of course now there are ridiculous rules like you are not allowed to smoke on the beach in California. Most are just stupid. If I was an employer that paid health insurance for and employee, I would prefer to have a non-smoker and non-drinker. That would be my preference but not an iron-clad rule. Unfortunately, these days, employers own their employees. There are no unions to protect them and no law to preclude any demand. There is even a on-going law suit to force a church to hire an employee that is not of their religion and homosexual.

Jobs are few and far between and it is a buyers market, all by design, I believe.

Forget discrimination, there is no real way for anybody to protect their job, regardless of their performance. I wish that the only criteria were “can you do the job”. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, we are no longer a democracy, we are owned and operated by international corporations and billionaires, If you do not fall into one of those categories, you have no rights except what they decide to grant to you. I’m sorry but that it just the way it is. The previous generation was solidly middle class and mostly democratic. Unfortunately, they gave it away and we will probably never see anything like it again.

You look young, I hope you can change it but don’t count on any court or sense of fair play from business. If you want democracy and free choice, you’ll have to take it back. Our grandparents lost it and we gave the rest away. The only chance we have is for the younger generation to revolt and demand it back. Smoker’s rights are no a good foundation on which to build a resurgent democracy.

@Ron_C…this question was asked a year and a half ago, before the union thing hit the fan.

Most people I know don’t smoke in their homes anymore, whether it’s a rule or not. They do it by choice. So, yes. It isn’t unreasonable to assume a smoker would go elsewhere to smoke, especially if it concerned his or her job.

And this is not a political rant. It’s not about “rights” or unions. It’s a straight forward question…the ad made no sense. I smoke. There is nothing about my smoking that affects my job. None.

And if I look young it’s because at the moment I’m flying my granddaughter’s picture. She was five at the time!

@Dutchess_III you caught me. I often get so interested in the question that I neglect to see when it’s asked. Like I said before, we no longer live in an actually free nation. We have people monitoring our mail and email, corporations dictating laws and economic policy, prisons and hospitals run for profit, and laws against some things that most civilized countries wouldn’t consider. Insisting on hiring a “non-smoker” is mild considering the other laws and politically correct rules we are forced to follow.

Personally, I don’t care if a person smokes or not as long as I don’t have to breathe it. I had a very bad allergic reaction a few years ago (coincidental that’s when I stopped smoking) and can no longer tolerate any kind of smoke.

PS…I asked this question….before I changed my account to Dutchess_III.

Nobody likes to breath second hand smoke! That’s why it frustrates me when the upper end hotels set aside some crappy, unventilated room for smokers to use. I’d rather be outside in the cold.

Also, this really wasn’t meant as some sort of rant about the loss of freedoms…it was more of a curiosity question. What was the person who wrote the ad thinking?

@Dutchess_III or val “What was the person who wrote the ad thinking?” I suspect that there was no thinking at all. Most of industry is attempting to be politically correct, at long as there is no cost involved.

I’m thinkin it was just some backwoods redneck on a high horse who happened to owned some apartments.