For those who believe in punishment for unbelievers.. Why would God punish people who don't understand him?

You are assuming the god in question is not some kind of psychopath.

In Yahweh’s case, we are talking about a person who has threatened to inflict you with boils and blindness, make another man rape your wife, force you to eat the flesh of your own children, and “take delight in your ruin and destruction” (Deuteronomy 28) if you don’t follow every single one of his commandments, including the ones mandating slavery and genocide.

i dont think god punishes anybody with a good heart.

@Qingu yikes!!

@life_after_2012 :) then i suppose you may not be who i’m asking the question to or about.

Because god (in the judeo-christian sense) is a vengeful god.

“Why is God expected to torture, kill, or otherwise refuse positive reward to people like me who happen to be unaware of his existence?”

He (?) doesn’t. You just feel/think that way. Don’t.

In the end. When you face the creator of all things. You would be faulted for nothing.
Because God put everything into motion. “Good” and “bad”. You are a product of that process.
And, nothing bad comes from it.

I don’t think it’s punishment. The concept is more like, You are drowning and the life ring is right there. I think the concept can even go so far as to say, God pulls you out of the water and puts you in the boat.
The “punishment” or consequence is that those who insist on jumping back in the water will eventually sink.
Disclaimer: I am not trying to prosthelytize and I don’t want to argue, just attempting to answer the question.

So God isn’t punishing you, he’s letting you drown.

In an ocean he created and pushed you into without a lifevest.

Unless he feels like saving you for whatever reason.

See my previous comment about “psychopathy.”

@Qingu ; I really don’t want to argue, but he never pushed anyone in, and he gives plenty of life vests, but we think we can do just fine on our own. The ocean is there to provide for us, but we get consumed by it, by our own choice.

Thanks judi. I just want to make plain that the ocean metaphor isn’t accurate. It’s not the case that atheist refuse life vests. It’s more of a matter that they can’t see the life vests, or that they do not understand that they are needed.

You’re talking about organized religions made by man. If God exists, I don’t think the religious have any more knowledge on God anymore than we unholy believers do.

Now I understand that you’re meaning why some believers would believe that God would torture and damn the unbelievers, but not all of them do, especially today. While fundies scream pretty loud, I think God is pretty liberal these days, which only goes to show that as they say God created us in His image, we created HIM in ours. Studying human psychology and nature and its presentation through what has and currently defines religious mindsets may very well give you some kinda answer.

@Judi, the “drowning” in your analogy is suffering the consequences of sin… which is defined as disobeying God.

According to Paul, it is impossible to fully obey God. Which is why we needed a sacrificial system in the OT, and Christ’s sacrifice in the NT.

So sin—drowning—is inevitable, a condition inherent in our creation. By God. Do you disagree with any of that?

I’m not the one you were asking either, but I’d just like to note that whenever the religious pretend to know what god wants, more often than not it turns out to be something they want too.

Sorry, just to elaborate on my earlier comment. If they could believe in a god who was trying to help them, they would respond to the help that was being offered. But because they can’t see him or any evidence of his help, they can’t respond to his offers.

Why would he withhold reward from such people? Isn’t that like allowing a blind person to walk into danger and claiming it is their own fault for not asking you, a silent bystander, for advice?

I think sin is separation from God, not disobedience. Disobedience is a consequence of the separation that WE CHOSE. Jesus Resurrection was like building a bridge so we can be in relationship with him.
@Qingu ; I know we will never agree on this, so lets just agree to disagree OK? I respect your difference of opinion and have no desire to change it.

@Fyrius ; as a Christian I agree with you whole heartedly.

“The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves if we are underlings.”

It is not about your “drowning” that is a concern to God. It is the lesson others might learn from the experience. Everyone having their own take on it and all roads will eventually lead to the same place.

@Judi, before Christ’s resurrection, was it possible to “choose” to bridge the separation?

My point is that whatever you want to call it, God created us as “separate” from him. That is our default state, according to your religion. Yes?

He is the creator and we are the created. Christ existed before the resurection, and the hope of the resurection WAS available.
I don’t propose to be a biblical scholar and I don’t propose to know God’s mind. I don’t have all the answers, and I won’t pretend that I do. I guess that’s why they call it faith.

“I don’t propose to know God’s mind”

I do and faith is over rated.

Actually, “not knowing the answers” is called ignorance. :)

Thinking you understand everything is called arrogance.

What is it called when you think a deity from Mesopotamian mythology understands everything?

Humility

@Judi

Atheists don’t claim to have all the answers either. I never understood why religious folk (not saying you’re doing this) claim that being an atheist is “arrogant”. Isn’t it just as arrogant to claim to know God exists? (Even so, I don’t think most “atheists” claim to “know” God doesn’t exist. It’s not exactly possible to know that).

@DominicX ; I was not bashing atheists. @Qingu had just said that I was ignorant for not having all the answers as a Christian. I was responding to that statement. I think we are in agreement that no one person has all the answers.

I was actually saying that what you called “faith” could simply be defined as ignorance with no change in meaning.

And I agree that we’re all ignorant about lots of things, atheists included. I think it’s our approach to our ignorance that tends to differ.

@Qingu ; I continue to learn and ask questions, and I don’t limit my learning to the Bible. I also, when it comes to spiritual matters, am content to wait for some of my answers. Some of my life’ s “Why God Why!” questions HAVE been answered and some have not.
I don’t look at the world with rosy tinted glasses, and I don’t expect life to be perfect because I am a Christian. I just live with a peace that I wouldn’t have without my faith.
I don’t deny science and I don’t blindly follow the spiritual whims of a generation. (I abhor what the fundamentalist movement has done in the name of Christ.)
My faith doesn’t top me from asking questions, or seeking answers, it just gives me confidence that the answers will be available when I need them.

for the love of hell guys, i’ve told you time and time again.. I HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS!!! if you would just ask me i’d tell you whatever you wanted to know. disclaimer: you have to ask in the exact right way and my answers may be mysterious and if you die before you figure out my meanings, you’re going to hell.

Because apparently learning that Jesus came to Earth 2000 years ago from a handful of second-hand accounts from a time where records where nonexistent was supposed to be proof enough for anyone and if you still don’t believe you should be sent to hell.

Hahaha.

Silly mortals

The thing is that alot of the time the god that an atheist does not believe in is not the same god that a religious person believes in. Is not science the search for certainty about existance the same way that religion is. We all need to find a finite explanation about how and why we came into being. It doesnt matter what you believe in as long as you dont harm anybody. It should not be what the answer is. It should be the fact that we find an answer and even more importantly that we ask the question!

Not knowing all the answers is called being human!

Jesus christ! We are talking about belief here not arrogance or ignorance. Who is to say we will ever be able to really prove anything!

All of humanity craves certainty. The trouble is we take sides!

Because He can.

@Barbs
“The thing is that alot of the time the god that an atheist does not believe in is not the same god that a religious person believes in.”
ಠ_ಠ

That’s like saying that a lot of the time, the hair colour that a bald man does not have is not the same hair colour that someone with hair has.

Not knowing the answers is different from believing the incorrect answer is true.

Religious fundamentalists expect God to torture and kill, because they reject the concept of evolving religions. For them time stands still forever. They see no place for an evolution of memes. Their memeplexes remain unchanged.

But memes need human hosts. The dark memes are facing competition from other very powerful selfish memes such as love of your enemy, freedom of all people and appreciation of both hetero- and homosexuality.

See, before the end of time God says ALL nations will know about me. Being an Athiest is a choice that You made. Saying that you are unaware of God excistence is false, for you have heard of Him but you made a decision not to follow Him. You are aware of His Excistence; you are talking about HIM now. In some way or form, everyone will know of God but God gives us free will. If you want to understand GOD, you will make te effort to learn about HIM and not be closed minded about HIM. First things is ask for forgiveness for being blind to the word and then pick up your BIBLE to understand of our Lord, our saviour. He is a Loving, caring God who still Loves you uncondtionally no matter what. But punish us for our sins but done with Love.Praying for you that you can find it in your heart to understand Him more. With Love, Johanne.

“but God gives us free will.”
There is no free will.
But, that is another post. ;-)

“He is a Loving, caring God who still Loves you unconditionally no matter what.”
So true. So nothing to worry about.

“But punish us for our sins but done with Love.”
That is such a dog chasing its own tail statement, from a time and society that was ruled by fear.
Not to say it is any different today.

“praying for you that you can find it in your heart to understand Him more.”
What is needed to understand is the cross we bare is personal and what is in our heart you can never understand. And, not really your concern. Any concern is in this matter is judgment.

I don’t think he “punishes” us for sins any more than a parent “punishes” their child for putting their hand on a hot burner. The pain is the consequence of sin, God loves us and tends our wounds. He doesn’t hold our hand to the burner.

“The pain is the consequence of sin”
No it is the consequence of the action.

The word “Sin” just give a more mystical flavor.

“He doesn’t hold our hand to the burner.”
That is so true. We do that just fine all by ourselves.

@ChazMaz ; I agree that the definition of sin is interpreted to be something mystical. It is not a word that is studied often. My understanding (after studying the Bible most of my life) is that it is being outside of a relationship with God. The “stuff” that we call sin is just the evidence of the sin.

@ChazMaz – The neurobiological restrictions on free will is still a hotly debated matter in scientific circles. There might be a free veto power not to do something. In addition, the future is not deterministic. God does play dice. Or the self-explanatory universe does play dice.

“The neurobiological restrictions on free will is still a hotly debated matter in scientific circles.”

Not to me. I get and I understand it very clearly. I do not need a scholar to explain it to me.

“In addition, the future is not deterministic.”
Not true. If you have all the parts of the equation you get a conclusion.

So 2+2 can equal something else then 4?

As “God” God or the self-explanatory universe already knows.

Will your cat named Schrödinger die in our universe as a result of atomic decay? If you can tell me for sure, you should be nominated for this year’s Nobel Prize. Don’t tell me you own a cat. We could try it with your dog too.

In the ternary numeral system 2 + 2 = 11

“Will your cat named Schrödinger die in our universe as a result of atomic decay? ”
Good question. If I had all the data I would have an answer for you.

Can you tell me the proper procedure and instruments necessary to do an appendicitis?
I would assume you would not. Until you gather all the necessary data.

“In the ternary numeral system 2 + 2 = 11”

I am sure that will get you past the 1st grade. :-)

All the data will tell you is half lives and probabilities.

In radioactive decay, the half-life is the length of time after which there is a 50% chance that an atom will have undergone nuclear decay. It varies depending on the atom type and isotope, and is usually determined experimentally.

Work with single atoms and you don’t know what will happen to your cat. If she dies appendicitis won’t matter anymore ;-)

Besides, we’ll have multiverse travel capabilities and you simply jump and reunite with your cat who is still alive over there. You might run into another @ChazMaz as well. Good luck!

“You might run into another @ChazMaz as well. Good luck!”
Now you are scaring me… :-)

@jphilog1 and @mattbrowne i don’t understand why people find this difficult to wrap their brains around, but this is a fact: I can no more choose to believe in god, then you can choose to disbelieve in him. You and I are both confined, deterministically, to our opinions this very moment. Until new evidence surfaces to coerce that opinion.

In terms of this discussion, what this means is that Atheists would be theists.. if only sufficient evidence were to become available to them. They can’t choose whether evidence is sufficient or not. It just has to have a “ring of truth” to it that they find impossible to deny, just as you currently feel about it. Just as atheists feel about their current opinions.

We only believe it because it makes sense to us. Not because we want to. Not because we “choose” to.

@ninjacolin – The question is

Are neurons sensitive to quantum effects? We know that a single neuron can change the activity of the whole brain. Sometimes we are observing a close call whether it fires or not. See

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=249305

@mattbrowne from your link:
“If a single photon could stimulate a rod, or a single molecule of a neurotransmitter could cause a neuron to fire, then our behavior might be truly random, because it would depend on truly random quantum events”

More here

@ninjacolin – Yes, I thought this deserves a new question!

doesnt the eventual answer that we think science will find dependant on faith. If you are not a particle or quantum physicist and even if you are surely you still need faith that we will find the truth.

Wait, I thought you were an atheist. If you do not know of his existence, then why are you asking questions about Him.
I suggest you learn about Him.

NOBODY can fully understand God!! We’re not supposed to! If God wanted us to He would let us!!!

I know enough about “Him” that I wouldn’t feel the need to fully understand him. Instead, the question pertains to understanding the value and importance of only his minimum requirements as outlined in whatever alleged holy book is in question. (Eg. The Bible, Koran, what have you..)

As far as you know, I’ve learned as much about “Him” as you have. The problem is I’ve also learned other things which circumvent belief in some of the conclusions you’ve arrived at regarding his relevance and/or reality. It’s not that I’m completely ignorant about his story and allegations of grandeur, it’s that I’m ignorant (via discredit) about the value of such stories.