In roughly fifty years, it is quite possible that Europe will be Muslim. How do you feel about this?

I don’t mind, so long people always have the choice to peacefully follow whatever way works for them. There’s also a high possibility most of Europe will drop the pseudo-religion tag (people get marked religious statistically by default in many countries) – and EU also will be mostly atheist. ;)

You mean like it was 500–600 years ago? oh ok.

Europe will be Muslim how? In the way the United States is Christian? That there will be more Mulsim than non-Muslim residents? Or that the government will enforce religious law? What are you talking about?

Will it get to wear a new hat?

It is possible that Muslim might become the most practised religion, but it will never “be” Muslim the way that Mulsim states are – Chruch and state will not merge that way

I don’t care what you believe in so long as your beliefs do not infringe on my life. I really do LOVE middle eastern food…

@Likeradar, muslims make more children than other cultures.
in 18 years, then, we’ll have mostly Muslim children becoming voters and politicians in various parts of the world, not just Europe but possibly even America.

Myself, I’m concerned because I’m convinced the reasoning behind the Muslim faith is fallacious. I don’t want fallacy-based reasoning to dominate the world.

@Likeradar

According to a presentation on campus, Muslim families on average have eight kids (most of whom grow up to be Muslim), while other Europeans have one child per family on average. Of course, if rates like that continue, there will be more Muslim citizens in European countries then non-Muslims. Some people loathe the possibility, others don’t care. I’m curious as to what the collective thinks.

@ninjacolin You could say there is fallacy behind all religions.

Not that I’m a fan of Islam, either, or any proselytizing religion, especially one that demands everyone bow to it or else, but, whether European people choose it of their own free will, or if there’s some sort of war where people are forced into it, then what will be done will be done and you wouldn’t have been able to stop it.

How different will it have been than the Belgians overrunning the Congo? Or the Mongols overrunning Central Europe? Or the English, French and Spanish overrunning North America? Or the Chinese overrunning Tibet? It’d just be Europe’s turn, again. Just like when the Romans overran the Gauls and Celts.

Sometimes you’re the arrow. Sometimes you’re the target.

“Thus, the study of history, said a wise man in a film hardly anyone saw, “is simply the study of one system of beliefs deposing another, and so on and so on and so on…”

@ArtiqueFox Just because Muslims will reproduce at a faster rate (and I take your word on this), doesn’t mean Muslims will have control…Doesn’t economics play a larger hand in individual success than religion? If you have eight kids, and they all start in poverty, they have much further to go than the one European kid that starts at upper middle class.

@ArtiqueFox Mark me down under “don’t care.”

@lilikoi.. deeply fallacious reasoning without room for correcting the fallacy is my concern.
while all beliefs/religions can possibly “get shit wrong” some beliefs/religion anticipate error and have a method for correcting themselves. I don’t believe the Muslim faith has this.

What does it matter? The culture might change, but as long as there’s freedom of religion, what does it matter?

Meh. It’s just another purposeless religion to me.

Scaremongering?

@OP
You are probably referencing this video
Well, the problem is, that the video is full of lies, as outlined in this rebuttal

Alas, I do no feel much about it, because it is not likely to happen.

at least ill be able to get a decent kabob in Luxembourg….

That’s a dramatic thing to say it. The same thing is happening in the U.S.- the Hispanic population is growing at a faster rate than the rest of our population, and some people are freaking out about it. These populations are only slated to become the majority if current growth rates keep up, and those growth rates are being fed mostly by immigration. All of our past waves of immigration have gone strong for a while and then gradually leveled off, and the next generations merged into the culture and have generally been successful.

For example, my family. My grandparents came to America from Turkey as young adults and worked as a doctor and a nurse. They raised my parents’ generation in a moderately traditional and religious way. My mom, aunt and uncle rebelled by being into the hippie lifestyle and partying. They generally ignored all the tradition and religion in their upbringing and didn’t speak much Turkish. They eventually settled down and my mom gave up being non-religious to be a non-denominational Christian. My upbringing was a completely typical American 90s childhood. I wasn’t comfortable with Christianity, so I’m an agnostic now, and I’m learning about Turkish language and culture. Most family’s stories are probably something like that- a lot more mundane than you’d expect, and each generation reacts to the one before it while assimilating to their new culture.

Every wave of immigration has caused a lot of concern in the people who were here just before them. A lot of people who are against the current population trends probably had grandparents who were immigrants. In a few decades, the European Muslim population will probably be very different from our ideas of the Muslim people of the Middle East today.

I’m pretty sure that’s not gonna happen. Although whether through oppression or assimilation, if it does happen, it’s weird to imagine. I don’t think Christianity can be replaced that easily though.

Don’t don’t don’t let’s start with the “they’re taking over the world! They must be stopped before they blow up the world” hype.

I’m not. My point is whether or not they’re welcome to establish the religion, there’s still something called God that prevails over most of European beliefs, and so, is therefore inevitable that oppression be mentioned.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

I do wish religious people would stop having so many damn kids though.

Am I supposed to feel something specific? Is this troubling you, somehow?

i wish @Qingu‘s parents had stopped before they had him, too.

Allah inshallah.

@eponymoushipster sorry dude, first child.

And seriously. Religions that promote having like ten kids? Fuck that noise. Our world is overpopulated.

I frankly find it scary. Islam is one of the biggest threats to peace in the world today, as well as one of the biggest hindrances to progress. I am not prejudiced against the people, but the religion itself is frightening in its barbarity and lack of respect for individual rights.

@FireMadeFlesh How familiar are you with Islam as a religion and its history, really? If you were at all familiar, you’d know that’s now what Islam’s about and certain people have tweaked it for their political and all kinds of other purposes – it is no more barbaric than Christianity.

Yes, I’ve made a study of Islam and the middle east, and have found that Islam is not the generalized threat that the media wants to push it on you as. Don’t believe what you read. If you seek information in peace you will find truth, if you seek it looking to point a finger and give blame you will find a violent answer that will satisfy what you desire. The people you have to fear are those who have a political agenda and use religion as a cover. Every religion has their own. Don’t let these people fool you into assuming a very very strong opinion about a very very very large group of people.

There are ridiculous extremists in every group and organization. When you make generalizations like that, you become a part of that statistic. Only the non-judmental educating of your mind to find truth will steer you clear of the people that want violent actions in the name of religion. See thru those silly pictures that are painted for you because they are the easiest to accept.

Give all people the chance to be seen for their own beliefs and actions. If we can do that, a persons denomination will not matter. Only the “fruits of their labors” as individuals.

I was so relieved to click on this thread and find that most people had the same response of, “so what?”...Because it is an unrealistic question, and also because muslims historically are more peaceful than any other religion we have documented.

I am not muslim btw. I believe in respecting all people because they are people and not because I have been told to fear them for some silly reason or another.

Cool, if it gets rid of the WASPS….and the Girls and the non Heterosexuals are not mistreated.

I don’t believe this is true. Statistical projections like that are based on simplistic formulas, eg “there were 10m Muslims in 1990, 20m in 2000, 40m in 2010, so in 2020 there should be 80m and in 2060 1280m”. By that logic, there will be over 40bil in 100 years, just in Europe, which is a lot more than the total population the planet can feed.

Even though it is true that Turks (for example) currently breed faster than Germans, and that there are more and more Turks in Germany (and there will be a huge influx once Turkey joins the EU), there is a certain limit to how many will even want to go there, and many will eventually go back home. Greeks have been moving back to “the homeland” from America and Australia, and the East Germans who went West are already thinking of going back just 20 years’ later. The same will happen to all the Poles in UK and Ireland after a while. Of course there will be large numbers of immigrants left in the host countries, and this mass population migration is nothing new (how do you think the Celts ended up in Scotland? Or the Mongols in Hungary, and the Persians in Finland?).

If you go back enough, everybody originally came from somewhere else. And all of them started off from Africa.

So basically I think the change will be smaller than people imagine, and smooth enough for us to deal with it. Yes, our world will change. It changes constantly. But that’s always been the case, and people whose ancestors left Kenya 200,000 years ago should stop attacking people whose ancestors left Kenya 199,000 years ago.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir “How familiar are you with Islam as a religion and its history, really? If you were at all familiar, you’d know that’s now what Islam’s about and certain people have tweaked it for their political and all kinds of other purposes – it is no more barbaric than Christianity.”

It seems every time I state my opinion of Islam, I have to point out that the only reason I hold Christianity in higher regard is that Christians do not follow the Bible. It would be just as bad if Christians followed it like Muslims follow the Qu’ran.
I realise that people use Islam to justify acts of violence, and that other Muslims say it is against their religion, but the substantial portion of the Qu’ran that I have read had some outright frightening passages (don’t ask me what, it was three years ago now). It is inevitable that the spread of Islam will be accompanied by the spread of Islamic extremists, whether or not it is justified by their religious texts. It is also inevitable that the spread of Islam will result in women’s rights being placed right back where they were in 600AD. I do not equate Islam with terrorism, because terrorism has many causes and many religious and political affiliations. I associate Islam with oppression and an inability to logically assess facts.
The bottom line is that I cannot respect, accept or tolerate any religion or belief system that does not respect, accept and tolerate my right to believe as I wish.

Increasing wealth and education for Muslims in Europe will slow down future birthrates. Islam itself will continue to evolve. At the moment almost all children of Christian-Muslim interfaith couples become Muslim, because on average Christians are less insistent and more tolerant. I except this to change as new forms of Islam will become more and more tolerant and less dogmatic as well. So the children of future Christian-Muslim interfaith couples will be more diverse. Perhaps there will also be more unitarian interfaith approaches. I see no reason why Christians and Muslims can’t pray together. Maybe a new faith will be Chrislam like in Nigeria

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrislam

I also expect atheism to grow somewhat, but there are limitations because people seek spirituality and meaning and purpose and want to be part of caring communities. As long as people like Dawkins promote the blind pitiless and meaningless indifference of our universe his worldview will only be appealing to a few people.

Providing people can live together peacefully I don’t care what other people believe in or what religion they choose to follow. The important thing here is that everyone has the choice.

@FireMadeFlesh you said “The bottom line is that I cannot respect, accept or tolerate any religion or belief system that does not respect, accept and tolerate my right to believe as I wish.” – that is your opinion and has nothing to do with the the original question…in that what does that have to do with whether or not the projection will be positive or negative.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir You questioned my knowledge and understanding of Islam, so that is what I focussed my reply towards. My opinion is based on my knowledge of it, so I do not think my comment is out of place. I already answered the question above.

@FireMadeFlesh that statement, though (imo) didn’t have anything in particular to do with Islam…and can be applied to any religion…that’s why I said it’s not relevant…I enjoyed reading the rest of your reply.

@FireMadeFlesh the Koran is the perfect book with which to swat WASPS, for that reason alone i am a sympathiser :)

Europe allowed it to happen.

Europe got what it deserved.

@PacificRimjob
one could say the same about 9/11

And by the way, all this “Eurabia” fearmongering is based on the fallacious assumption that all muslim immigrants are extremists and want to turn Europe into an Islamic state ruled by Sharia law.
For example, Cem Özdemir is the child of a turkish immigrant family, a muslim and most importantly, current co-leader of the German Green Party, which is a left wing party, so if he is anything to go by I do not see any substantial danger of Europe turning into Eurabia.

@ragingloli – Good points. I agree!