Why do we have to pay to live somewhere?

No one is stopping you from living in the wild.

Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to just live wherever you like?

Not really. It’s nice to live in a house and have everything in one place. It’s nice to have a “base” and visit other places but at the same time know you have one place that’s more important than the others and you can always go back to it.

And yeah, no one is stopping you from living in some random place. I think that’s what being homeless is all about…

That’s a very optimistic view of animal life.

They struggle to survive every day. There are predators out to deal with, plus the elements and all else that comes with living in the openness.

Feel free to live in the woods.

yeah, right! @MrGeneVan. So where is this wild you suggest, pray, tell….

Sad but true, we gotta pay for it all. I don’t like it either, but what am I gonna do. Wipe my ass with tree bark? No thanks.

I do wish I could fly though. That would be some trippy shit.

@sarcasm let me be clearer. We are on a rock floating in space. Ownership is arbitrary, and bottom line it comes down to violence. That is one hell of a way to be higher order creatures living it out. I would bet better than 70% of all mankind is a slave to their shelter.

If you live in the wild in a tp you will miss tp (toilet-paper)

Homelessness is illegal I am pretty sure. There is no designated area to squat that I know of. You like your house because you are used to it. Your whole world revolves around ideas that are part of a culture that is pretty poorly designed I think, not so much compared to where we used to be, but where we could be. You don’t need all this crap. It’s a shame we can’t all see that. I think lots of the beauty in life, the raw beauty is being missed.

Housing is a good, not a right.

@Ltryptophan

Just because something is different, doesn’t mean it’s better. Who are you to tell me what I “don’t need”?

Challenge your horzions, maaaan…far out…

One of my favorite things to do is be in the wilderness (hiking, mountain biking, etc.), but I don’t want to live there.

@talljasperman I am getting a toto c110, check my question about tp. But if I lived in the wild I would learn a special squat/spread’em technique and rub it on the tree, and jump in the stream. Not necessarily in that order.

If it was cold outside, I’d move somewhere warm. b/c I wouldn’t want to shit in the cold…but it could be fun!

It happened about the time we were changing from hunter/gatherers/ nomads to agrarian village dwellers. About 10,000 years ago.
The folks who began accumulating wealth and food-stores also began dictating how we had to live.
One of the things they did was to lock up all the food and make us begin to work for it.
Another thing they did was to begin to kill off all of nature, parcel out the land as private property, and made it impossible to live on the land in the wild (they destroyed the wild).

those bastards

Go out into the woods and give it a try, @Ltryptophan . There is plenty of wilderness to go around.

See how easy it is to live off the land, eating only what you kill and forage. See how you fare against bears, snakes, insects, wildcats, and more. I hope you are prepared to treat snakebites and insect bites. I hope you know enough about herbalism to know what you can eat vs what will kill you… assuming the animals do not do so first. See how well you do finding a way to keep warm in the winter with only what you can forage to keep you warm, etc. I hope you know how to fell a tree, start a fire, make weapons, use the weapons you make, etc.

If it sounds like fun, give it a try. I shall be right here in my modern home with heat, light, and tasty modern food.

Living everyday, foraging for junk and sleeping in a tree, or under a tree, or by a tree sounds very much like the life of many homeless people, and it is not the kind of life you want to live. I think you are romanticizing a life unencumbered by the “luxuries” of knowing where your next meal is coming from, of knowing that you have a safe, warm, dry place to sleep, of having running water and a toilet, one that flushes hopefully. And those are just the basics. If you want to go back to the life of the hunter-gatherer, well, it is just plain to late for that. And the “social contract” is, by the way, one of the main reasons why you managed to survive your childhood to ask this question, because you were vaccinated and didn’t die from… lets see? Polio, diphtheria, measles, scarlet fever, mumps, small pox, tuberculosis, cholera, any one of a score of bacterial and viral infections and God knows what else. O.K. End of lecture. Sorry.

i’m not talking about being homeless or living like shit in the woods. I am talking about a culture that is well fed but doesn’t have these fixed property concepts. Not even necessarily a culture that isn’t modern, although I think alot of these possessions foul things up with peace and harmony.

Private property ownership is the key to holding together the Capitalist system.

we can do a lot better folks…

I am such a devout capitalist you have no idea. That doesn’t mean that there isn’t a better way. It just means we haven’t figured out the better way yet.

@Ltryptophan

You keep saying stuff is “bad”, but you’re not really explaining why or what exactly is bad. What specifically is wrong with “fixed property concepts”? What is the alternative to that and how would it work?

The Native American Indians had that one worked out. But it is impossible to live that way with the overpopulation problem we now enjoy.

ok, well I like fixed property, I have a bunch of it. I especially like it when I consider what apes humans are and how they cannot be trusted.

If we could shape up though, I would feel alot more comfortable not caring about much of my property and who is coming near it. It’s my person that I want respected most of all, and I think if you are doing that things like property ownership are just ducks in a row.

you don’t own anything by the way. The strong guys have just agreed to let you play with what you think you own. If they wanted they would tell you exactly how it is with the things you think you possess. Furthermore I think it is a universal truth that ownership is a false construct. I think you don’t own anything. Things just exist. Ownership is in our puny little brains.

But don’t get me wrong. I like using my stuff, and for practical porpoises I would defend my stuff in court.

@Ltryptophan

You remind me of a line in a French song “My Own Sun” by Darkel. She says “ownership is an illusion”, but her accent is so thick it sounds like she says “all my shit is an illusion.”

I think it depends entirely on how you define “ownership”.

Lisa: Your feet are really close to my potatoes.
Homer: Your potatoes…you can’t like own a potato, man. It’s one of mother earth’s creatures.

Guy who lives in a cave on almost nothing.

maybe I will go see him and discuss it.

@kebvo Well, that works for him, it may very well work on an individual basis, but somebody made those clothes he is wearing and his glasses, which are probabably prescription and there’s a fair amount of societal, economic and intellectual infrastructure supporting that, and someone is manufacturing and paying for the computer is is using at and the physical plant of the public library, again a fair amount of societal, economic and intellectual infrastructure supporting that. Not that it isn’t difficult, not that it doesn’t require sacrifice and resolve, but choosing to live that kind of life is possible only because other people don’t live that kind of life, because they make stuff, and invent stuff and create stuff. That kind of life is possible for him because he was born into a world where most of the dangers and hardships of that kind of life have been solved by people who came before him, people who haven’t lived in caves for a very, very long time

@lillycoyote I agree, and that is what I am getting at. Can’t we move on to better things.

@Ltryptophan

But just what are “better things”? You’re still being very vague in your “solution”.

Well I am not trying to create the utopia I am wanting hear in this thread.

If I had the answer to solve human misfortune, I would have already shared it.

@Ltryptophan

My point is that I’m not so sure paying to live somewhere is a “misfortune” in the first place.

A Utopia for all can never exist, because essentially it’s defined as one thinks best for themselves, rather than everyone in the world.

Anything closer is what Hitler thought up, and we know that ain’t good.

@Symbeline There’s a reason why “utopia” literally means “not a place” in Greek.

@DominicX, you are partially right. Ideally though I think you are wrong, since ownership is just a gimmick, and I think you and me don’t mind the gimmick because we are strong.

@DominicX Am arguing the intent of what wishes to be heard, not the definition.

@Symbeline

I wasn’t arguing, I was just sharing an interesting linguistical tidbit that I thought was really cool when I found it out…

@DominicX I wasn’t arguing against YOU. But the dude who asked the question seems to be looking for a specific answer, which is what I was on. I don’t believe a Utopia may exist, and if you’re right about its Greek origin, that proves it all the more.
...
Ain’t arguing against people who were Spartans, that’s for sure. XD

…I think I forgot to ”@” the person. Sorry. XD

I would like it if we could be more bummish without losing credibility, or having to become filthy like bums. Homeless doesn’t have to be so bad. If there were comfortable places people could just sleep if they felt like it, and shower and groom themselves. Maybe sometimes you would skip going home.

@Ltryptophan I hear what you are saying and I totally agree with you. There is something very elegant about animals being able to survive independently without being domesticated. I look at my cat, and I am amazed – he doesn’t need me to feed him, he is capable of hunting for food and sourcing water on his own, he doesn’t need soap to stay clean… I think our brains are the only reason we thrive as a species.

I considered somethig I call gym tent living, but decided it was not feasible. You get a gym membership, as nice as you like, then put a tent somewhere that is pretty unvisited, and disguise it well. Don’t let anyone see you go to it. Sleep there, and when you need to shower, go to your gym.

Hah I’ve thought about that too, never came up with a name for it though. I thought having a gym membership would be a pretty convenient/economical way of getting a shower when you need it. I think it would be hard to maintain a job, though. Eventually people would catch on and realize you only own three shirts or something. Idk…

yeah it’s bogus.

@Ltryptophan wrote: “Homelessness is illegal I am pretty sure.”
No it’s not. (But don’t worry, suicide is illegal.)

It is illegal to loiter in some areas, however not owning a home or having a place of residency (vagrancy) is not an offense against the state.

@Ltryptophan Being homeless would be awesome.

If everyone in the world was.

I enjoy having a home and nice things around me, and I am more than happy to pay for it. Can’t even imagine living a wild existence. Not for me thanks.

If you were really serious about this, there are a lot of people who actually live in ‘alternative’ situations, where no one owns anything, and all you have to do is your share of the work to enjoy the proceeds of the group, which is growing food, making clothes, building lodging and such. You could find a group like that and make yourself useful.

I suspect you are just using up some spare time, and not the least bit interested in actually doing something about it.

I have spent many years living in places without having to pay. I lived on a ketch for twelve years. As long as you don’t take up permanent residence, you can “stay” just about anywhere where there is enough water under your keel. I also “go bush” quite often, and just camp where I fancy. There is nothing stopping you from doing the same. If your question has to do with being allowed access to property that is owned by someone else – well you already know the answer.

Property is security and stability, and people will pay for those. And when they’re done with it, they want back the money that they put in. And hey presto, you’ve got yourself a house and a payment for it.

When wild animals don’t find food they starve and eventually die. In developed countries when humans don’t find food other humans help them. When wild animals get seriously sick they eventually die. In developed countries when humans get seriously sick they get treated by doctors. When wild animals get along fine they don’t have to pay to live somewhere. When humans get along fine and they have work they have to pay to live somewhere. There are always trade offs. Civilization doesn’t come for free. If you want to give up civilization, feel free to do so. Take your tent and don’t pay for the place where you erect it, but don’t expect civilization to bring you food or send you doctors when you need them.

I’d rather live in a house :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkCzGzqikUA

We have these modern things for a reason, we all like shelter and money lol.

“Wouldn’t it be nice to be able to just live wherever you like?”
Animals do not just live where they like.

A Polar Bear cant live in the desert.
A fish cant live in the woods. (you know what I mean)

“we can’t just let each other live peaceful existences without, social contracts.”
I will be over at 6 for dinner. And, I will take the bigger room to sleep in. TY

“A Utopia for all can never exist…”

It will never exist so long as there are people working against its existence.

@Ltryptophan You seem to want the rootless vagabond existence while enjoying the amenities of civilization. Someone will have to produce the food you want to eat, the clothes on your back, your means of keeping warm, etc. How do you propose to protect yourself from being harmed while you sleep? I know that homeless people who live in subways get bitten by rats. I’ve heard that homeless people have their shoes stolen from them while they sleep.
You seem to want to have it both ways. I’ve noticed that the kids who graffitti up the walls down town spout off about “anarchy” all the time, but yet feel free to utilize the amenities that society has in place, like running water, heated buildings, readily available, pre-packeged food, etc. What would happen to them, do you think? How long would they last if society were to truly break down and become anarchy? My guess is that they are not truly prepared for such an event.
I believe the same about you. You could not survive without society and civilization. Not without some seriously dedicated training in areas that have already been mentioned. Woodcraft, a knowledge of plants, and an ability to make, with your own hands, tools that would allow you to survive. And even then, you would almost immediately begin looking for a secure place in which to put these things so that you could continue to apply other skills for simple, basic, survival.
Then you would look for other people with whom you could join and as a group work together for more than survival, perpetuation of the species. You’d find ways to barter skills for goods, and come up with systems of trade and rules by which all could benefit. And what would you have accomplished? A recreation of a society.
Congratulations!

Watch the movie “Into the Wild.” I think that communicates your feelings more clearly. I see what you mean, but at the same time, I do like the conveniences of having a home (like air conditioning). The BS part is that you can’t just build a home wherever you like. Somehow the earth became property of the government to sell as they may.

But watch “Into the Wild.” After I did, it made me sick of humanity’s dependence on “stuff,” (which I now refer to not as stuff, but bullshit)

It’s a great movie, and based on a true story… of a guy who actually lived in the wild.

That was a heavy movie. I liked it too.

In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have to. Too bad.

I hear the land in antaritca is free to live on…. next the moon and mars

I wonder what penguin tastes like

I hear it tastes like Otter.

“we could live in tepees. Because it’s better in many ways.” Josh Weinstein (as hippie in Mars Attacks)

It’s not at all illegal to be “homeless” and there are plenty of places where you can live more or less legally in more or less “the wild”. The Hartford Courant ran a series of articles on a couple who lived on the banks of the Connecticut River for several years, quite openly, in fact. They did their shopping in town (commuting on foot or hitching rides occasionally) and while it’s true that the land they lived on was not truly “wild” (it was private property, after all), it wasn’t their property, it wasn’t able to be developed because of its flood plain status (spring floods were a problem for these folks) and the owner had no other use for it, so he knowingly allowed them to stay there.

Since they had no electricity, piped potable water, sanitary facilities, no permanent structure of any kind, and had to move to higher ground whenever the river rose more than a few feet, I think most people would classify that as “wild living”.

@CyanoticWasp nice/lazy land owner

Go live with the wild animals; it’s free.

There are towns in South Dakota and Michigan where you can go and move into a house entirely for free. You’d have to do the research though, I’m not going to look them up for you.