The rapture: do you buy it?
I mean, it’s a nice thought, you’re an all powerful deity and you’re gonna let Hell reign on Earth …for… some reason… so you beam up all the good Christian souls in advance. Cool. Do Christians even buy this stuff or do you see it as part of the mythology of your faith?
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Topics: Christianity, mythology, the rapture, beam me up Scotty
Hahahaha
This isn’t even a debatable topic lol. It’s 2010 lol. So no, I don’t believe in it. I think most christians are still capable of rational thought and don’t believe the fairytale stuff.
Of course it’s true. Not only that, but it has already happened. We are the dregs left behind while all the righteous have been taken to heaven.
Which explains why Bush was allowed to become president when he wasn’t even properly elected. (Bush is the devil, you know.)
Hey, if you don’t want to believe, nobody’s going to convince you. But…what if it’s true?
Haha! “nice thought”, indeed.
When I was a Catholic, I was taught that the rapture would happen, yes. I never really bought it, but then again, I’m no longer a Catholic, and I’d say that there was a difference in opinion that goes deeper than some apocalypse story.
There are certainly some who believe everything from the book of Revelations will be played out. But there are people who believe in aliens with about as much proof. It’s tough to say whether or not many Christians actually believe this part of their faith, since many view it symbolically or whatnot.
@snowberry What if there are space dragons waiting to invade from space if we don’t give up all religion in the next 3 years? Equally likely.
@shadling21 That’s really what I’m asking – in a sort of tongue-in-cheek way.
I’ll believe it when it happens.
@davidbetterman Oh, I believe she is a woman, not a girl, so I apologize for that. I know she is a woman because she stated she had kids in another thread awhile back.
Observes that Blackberry and snowberry are crafting responses and wonders where raspberry is.
@Blackberry Oh, my mistake. I thought you were just giving some guy a hard time ;)
@Blackberry heh – and where’s Barry White? I could do this all day.
“Buy it”? No. Wish it for it? Every single day.
@JeanPaulSartre Just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t make me an idiot. And just because you give a silly example doesn’t make you stupid. But it shows you do have a sense of humor. And yes, I am female. Been that way for 55 years now. Have no plans to change.
Something to watch for. ;-)
Of course not. It’s the ultimate religious tactic. It’s easier to control people when there is the never ending idea that one day your “rewards” will be
reaped. If that day never comes then the believers will always be waiting and obeying.
Nowhere is the bible is the rapture mentioned.
@Trillian That makes it even worse, this crap was passed around by word of mouth?
The rapture is a very complex subject and there are very different opinions about it amongst Christians.
As far as I remember from my time studying theology in the UK, the teaching about the rapture largely came out of Dallas Theological Seminary.
Its mostly a belief amongst American Christians, but not to the same extent in other parts of the world except of course where there has been a strong American influence.
@Blackberry well, as I understand it, it was kind of extrapolated by this and that, mostly in The Revelation to John, I believe.
@snowberry I don’t think you’re an idiot – but for me the rapture story is pretty silly. I mean, if I’m a good person, but don’t think the Christians have it right, then oops, RAPTURE! and I go to Hell? That’s one grumpy god there.
@Trillian I know! PEople use 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 to account for it, but similarly there’s no fallen angel, etc… Christian mythology.
@Sandydog Well clearly only American Christians will get taken in the rapture. ;)
@JeanPaulSartre The fallen angel is taken from Jewish lore, and also some Babylonian texts that predate the bible. The Babylonians may have been on to something though.
Jesus said He would go and prepare a place for us. When He is ready, He will come back and get us.
This is like day care, basically.
except He is the daycare staff, and the parent.
“What if there are space dragons waiting to invade from space if we don’t give up all religion in the next 3 years? Equally likely.”
It boils down to belief in God. If you don’t want to believe, at least don’t make fun of those who do (such as comparing belief in “space dragons” to Christianity.)
Most Christians I know, I admit we are a very diverse bunch, do not believe that the rapture is coming in 3 years. The fact is, we don’t know when it’s coming, but we do believe it will be soon. But again, Christ said, I am coming soon, and we’ve been waiting 2000 years. So our understanding of time is different than God’s. For God, a day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as a day.
during the 19th century, american Dispensationalists believed that the events of the Revelation of St. John had already happened, as predicted, and that we now lived in the new Christian era after the defeat of the Antichrist.
it wouldn’t surprise me if the Jehovah’s Witnesses did not (indirectly) promote the idea of the end of the world and the rapture. they first predicted it to occur by, I think, some date in the 1910s, moved the date up ahead a bit several and abandoned it later because it made for bad PR.
@snowberry: scroll down a bit to the New Testament section. you will find several instances of Jesus and predicting the end of the world or the Second Coming “soon”, i.e. within a human lifetime, and accounts by his followers who believed the same.
Christians shouldn’t worry about the rapture, since it is certain that in no time flat you will be dead regardless. When God returns, that will be a pretty good day. Whether you happen to be on the wrong side or not, at least you can have solace in knowing that everything will be set straight.
@snowberry I never said I don’t believe in god – but if space dragons did come and impose their own justice, they’d have done more to impact us than god. (Other than what belief in god has impacted, which is another story…) If the rapture isn’t in the Bible, why do you believe in it? Also, I don’t buy into the whole “god time” thing. God should know what clock we’re using, if god meant 2000+ years, soon is extremely misleading.
@Ria777 Thanks – I do like to have a complete picture, I’ll look into it.
@Ltryptophan 2000+ years? That’s a long time for papa to leave you kids at daycare.
Yes, he did. And he is here now. For it is in we live and move, and have our being.
Jesus was a He. I consider Jesus God incarnate. I believe God the father is bigger than sex though if that makes you feel better. Well if you don’t get raptured, maybe then you will have all the proof you need. Then you can confess to God, repent, accept Him and hope for the best. Maybe there is a certain group of people who will only be saved if they witness that sort of miracle. Maybe you are one of them.
I think we need to outgrow these rescue fantasies and fix our own problems. If we got “left” in some cosmic daycare, we should maybe put up a fresh coat of paint, clean up the dirty diapers, etc. 2000 years is a long time to wait for someone else to come and take out the trash.
He left people in charge. If you don’t like how things are in the church, why don’t you get involved and learn what you need to to change things, or see why they are the way they are.
Like I said He never left us. He is with us now! Even in this very thread!
@Ltryptophan That’s extremely condescending… eg “maybe if you accept the impending space dragon apocalypse they’ll spare you. Maybe.” I am involved in changing things – actual change of society for the better… not sitting in a church hoping for some creature to come and save us.
There is no “maybe” in whether or not you will be saved if you request it. The only “maybe” is if you will in fact do that. That is what I said.
I never even knew what the rapture was until I was searching Google for Anita Baker’s album. Now that, I will buy.
@Ltryptophan Why spend the time – if there is a god, clearly they’ve long since given up on us. There is no saved unless we save ourselves.
God is no creature. He is the creator. @JeanPaulSartre l would like to be clear that although I am a Christian, I am by no means perfect. However, I know this stuff. If you have questions ask them, and I will love to answer to the best of my knowledge, and honestly. I graduated in Philosophy, and know exactly where I stand. I’d be happy to discuss it with you and clarify how I believe it is.
Well God never said for you to stand there doing nothing, constanty waiting for Him. He said go out into the world and tell everyone the good news. He meant everyone. So that is our job as christians, and some are better at it than others, and some don’t even lift a finger.
@Ltryptophan I’m just curious, so do you also believe in a literal hell, or do you believe that the unsaved are simply wiped of their eternal soul and cease to exist after they die?
God hasn’t given up on you, and He never would. We cannot see everything that is going on, nor can we understand it.
[ citizen’s mod says:] This discussion is supposed to be about the rapture and it’s validity in the eyes of Christian’s. As much as I agree with @JeanPaulSartre, I think a more constructive debate could happen if you kept in mind the bounds of the question. Nobody knows whether God is real or not, but scientific evidence strongly supports the non-existence of a deity.
@Ltryptophan My second degree is also in Philosophy. Why buy into this rapture idea, specifically? Sans the Bible as a source. But spreading Christianity doesn’t prevent us from killing ourselves off with pollution, or nuclear war… god isn’t coming around to save us, we have to save ourselves. It’s irresponsible to think there’s a magical fix. God giving up on me or not is irrelevant.
@jfos Citizen’s Mod. I like it.
If Jesus is still preparing us a place, he is the slowest carpenter ever…
@holden well God is giving you a chance here to answer to your own witness. If you hear something and your heart tells you it is true, regardless of how it is conveyed, and then you ignore it, then there will be consequences.
If I told you that a house on your block was on fire, would you not go check to see if it was yours. Well that is like Christians you may have heard before who have failed to convey their message effectively. You should have still felt the pang and parsed it out completely. If you did and still felt nothing, I am not willing to sit in judgment, but God will. If you are comfortable with believing that in your deepest understanding this was all a farce then that is your call, but I don’t think it will work because I believe when men hear this message it sticks to them like stink on poo and they can’t shut it up from the witness of their own hearts.
@Ltryptophan I don’t understand anything you just wrote, or how that at all answers my question.
@Ltryptophan That’s slightly delusional. Saying you better believe in something that I’m telling you is in your heart or you’re ignoring what’s in your heart and you’re going to hell is circular.
I believe hell is absence from God. So, if you are unrepentent, because only Jesus is good, you will be separated from Him, which you are not at the moment. This absence I believe is best described as fire, or sufficiently similar that you cannot tell the difference, and it will be your only existence.
But that is not the correct impetus in my opinion for being a Christian.
@Ltryptophan Then we’re already in hell because he bailed out 2000+ years ago. And I’m good, I’m probably more good that Jesus… I pick up my kid from daycare every day.
For instance, you could offer to start making me suffer immediately, and horribly. Should I then bow to you? No. I bow to God only because I believe He is fit for it, not because of the pain He can inflict.
So, hell is absence from God, and it’s like burning in a fire? Am I hearing you right?
He never left us. He is the staff at the daycare.
It is also a choice, that you make.
I am not saying that even if you tell me you hate Jesus you are going there. I am merely saying that if He says you are going, you are. But who cares about that? It is not a good reason to do anything because you will suffer.
I can promise you that if you become a Christian, and you are doing the right thing you ought to be suffering because that is what He said to expect.
What kind of parent would leave their child in the care of someone whose method of discipline is to set kids on fire?
lol, it was a joke.
Absence, that’s a drink. Is it not?
“and you are doing the right thing”
Everything we do is Gods will. So there is no wrong thing, it is all the right thing. In Gods eyes.
Except for guilt and condemnation.
BTW, he just told me this.
I’m not leaving my kids with the Space Dragons or god… meanies.
@Holden, if you choose evil and corruption, then He will not suffer you forever. He will and must separate Himself from your ways if He is who He says He is. That is something you caused. If you are allowed to deny Him forever then who does that make you? It makes you better than Him, you’re not and it won’t be allowed. Unlike our country with God, lies are clear, and they are not part of free speech. They will not be honored. Denying God is a lie. You can’t enter heaven with a lie on your tongue that you will not release.
Okay, just to get back on… some kind of track… Rapture @Ltryptophan obviously you buy it – why should a rational person believe this will happen, without using the Bible as a reference.
It is like going through TSA with a bomb in your underwear.
…I believe that Jesus is God. The rapture is only in the bible, it is not an oral tradition outside the bible that some outside source could back up.
@JeanPaulSartre your judgement may or may not get you on the concourse. Gate Pearly.
@Ltryptophan if I feel and know in my heart that God, your God, does not exist, but I choose to worship him anway because people tell me to, then is there not also some sort of “consequence” for that?
@Holden, only He can judge you. You and Him are the only ones that know what you can and cannot believe. @JeanPaulSartre it is in the bible. Rapture is a term coined for the wording in the bible.
@Ltryptophan The Bible is a good story, but so is my Space Dragon story… I need outside references.
@Holden If you would like a best case scenario, maybe somehow you are unable to compute this whole matter effectively. God will see that and repair that in you for your judgment. Basically like aiding someone incompetent to stand trial. If once it were repaired you still denied Him, then that I’m sure will be it.
Maybe something a Christian has done has made you distrust religion. Who knows. What I do know is that He will judge you justly. Not me.
I know a “Rapture” that has multiple scientific sources backing it up (climate change), but Christian Rapturists will ignore that or even say that it’s aiding in bringing about the second coming…
I was brought up in an evangelical Christian faith (evangelical, not fundamentalist) that preached repentance, salvation, and being born again, and I never heard of “the rapture” until I was an adult and began to learn about some of the stranger fringe sects. We were taught about Judgment Day and the book of Revelation (not RevelationS), but the term “rapture” was not used as the name of an event, nor anything as literal as some people seem to imagine.
@JeanPaulSartre you wanted one for rapture which I don’t have. But if you need outside references for God then I got’em. They point to Christianity for me.
@Jeruba it seems like a new wave thing to me as well.
@Ltryptophan my belief or lack of belief should be irrelevant. But if you have scientific resources that confirm there is a god I’d like to see them.
It is certainly not even close to the most important things in christianity. It is a fact though that any moment you could face your demise. This might as well be the rapture.
Christians have been chasing the rapture for a long time.
The rapture was suppose to happen in the early 80’s. Or did it?
I hope not for @Ltryptophan sake.
No disrespect to you my friend. I know where you are coming from. Been there. Still am.
Once you stop fearing God you will see the truth. It will set you free.
And so we see once again the utter absurdity of arguing a point between 2 parties who are completely unwilling to see each others point of view.
“if there is a god, clearly they’ve long since given up on us. There is no saved unless we save ourselves.”
That is so silly it bears repeating. Even einstein admitted the existence of god. For you to dispute Einstein is simply ludicrous, despite a degree in philosophy.
Which, if you truly had said degree, you would probably be a little more open to philosophies of which you have no knowledge, ”There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” @JeanPaulSartre
@Ltryptophan Sure I could – but that’s not evidence to the Rapture as described, more like evidence for my Climate Change rapture.
And, the faults lie not in the stars but within ourselves.
@JeanPaulSartre I think Einstein was a humanist, of Jewish descent, actually.
Oh yes. Several of them actually. The Rapture Battlecruiser has a lot of firepower.
The rapture: do you buy it?
No.
@davidbetterman also religion is not philosophy, it’s a philosophy. One I disagree with, like relativism.
Chances are you will not partake in the rapture because if history holds it will not be in your lifetime, so why don’t you deal with the state of your soul as christians are worried about for you…
This would entail understanding what type of God you would be willing to worship if there was one. What sort of God would you worship. Would that God have to be higher than all things, uncreated, eternal, benevolent?
@holden Thanks. Either way, rapture was irrelevant.
@Ltryptophan because there are more pressing issues than my “soul”
@JeanPaulSartre “Einstein was jewish.” That was stupid my friend. Being Jewish has no bearing on believing in God. Or were you trying in some silly way to jump to the point that Jews aren’t included in the rapture, or that they don’t believe in it?
And so you are closed off in your philosophical views, with this alleged degree in philosophy. Verrry Interrresting.
That is the only sort of God I would worship. Jesus is self described as that being.
What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?
@Ltryptophan If I were to worship a god (because I still haven’t revealed belief) zie wouldn’t ignore us for 2000 years, zie wouldn’t let kids die of AIDs in Africa because they were raped… etc.
God does not need you to fix everything. Helping people is good and what is expected, but God can help them without you. He needs you to help you, first and foremost.
@davidbetterman Apparently Jews would be skipped in the rapture – that was my point, yes.
@Ltryptophan I can’t help myself if I’m being killed by CO2 emissions.
Suffering is the state of things and that is our own fault. God himself came to this world and suffered. He is not blind to it, and when the day comes He will wipe every tear away.
“Suffering is the state of things and that is our own fault.”
Hard to think that when a bear is chewing on your leg.
“He will wipe every tear away.”
Of course he will. Because none of it was anybody’s “fault” .
Action reaction.
@Ltryptophan What? So “he” blows us off for millenia and then comes back all “My bad”? Weak.
And off topic. I’m just saying that we need to save ourselves, not wait “anymore” or think our inaction is being faithful.
He cannot blow any individual off longer than their lifetime. So at most He has blown someone off for maybe a hundred years or so.
@Ltryptophan That’s not how the Bible describes it… He comes back and judges the living AND the dead… you sit in limbo apparently until the rapture either way.
But I am good reason to think He has not blown you off for even close to one hundred years.
I am going to get blown off tomorrow night!
What do you know of Limbo. What do you know of that time inbetween your death and judgment. It may well be that at your death you will awake at once to judgment without knowledge of a gap in time.
“What do you know of Limbo.”
That’s a dance. Is it not?
What does anyone know about death?
It’s a a gap in time.
Or is that limbo?
That there are two is what I know. You can have your flesh die. Then you can have your soul die eternally. Jesus is the only way to avoid the second death.
I think this discussion is nuts !!
“You can have your flesh die”
That would be Sunday morning. After my Saturday night blow off.
@Ltryptophan Listen I don’t know about limbo, it’s not my term even – but clearly for people who died long ago there is a gap, whether they are aware of it or not.
@Sandydog This is generally how these kinds of discussions go, I’ve noticed.
Jesus knows it is hard for you to believe that one day He will gather up the wheat from the chaff. Especially since He doesn’t do that all the time. But if you see it I hope you believe, and will repent before He completely closes shop down here.
@shadling21 I know that the Space Dragons will bring it about…
. o O (Rapture… isn’t there an iPhone app for that?)
Ignorance and humor do the same thing.
They make me laugh. I love you Fluther!
Even if I just crack myself up.
@Ltryptophan Jesus might’ve believed that when he was alive, but he’s long since gone.
The Rapture will come to each individual. Each will be invited to love and be loved, and to forgive and be forgiven. Those that have compassion will be taken up in the Spirit. Those that do not have the capacity for love and forgiveness will not be able to understand the call. The descriptions in the Bible of Armagedon, and the Second Coming of Christ are psychospiritual events in the life of the soul. These events will be the end of the world in the sense that the world of the individual will come to an end, and the soul will enter into a new existence in Christ. It has happened, is happening, and will happen every time someone turns toward or away from God.
@ChazMaz It’s good times. The Space Dragons approve.
@stump but what about loving compassionate atheists?
They are screwed. Try the Presbyterians down the street.
@JeanPaulSartre Did you post this question just to see how many Christians we could pull from the woodwork?
It’s amazing… Every religion-related question on Fluther boils down to something like this.
@ChazMaz Correction: We are screwed.
Maybe the Rapture has something in common with UFO’s ?
“Correction: We are screwed.”
I am not screwed. I get it. ;-)
None of us are screwed.
The cut off the nose to spite the face logic needs to stop.
@shadling21 Not really – but wow it sure got sloppy. But I’m just as guilty there.
@ChazMaz But I thought you were getting blown off, isn’t that like getting screwed?
@JeanPaulSartre – I hope so! Blown off and getting screwed.
But that is another NSFW post. lol
@JeanPaulSartre God has many names. The word ‘God’ may not have meaning for many people, but those that know love, compassion, forgiveness know God as surely as (and often better than) church-going worshipers.
Blown off! Screwed! Hah!
@Sandydog That’s a good point. Someone coming to take us away to some unknown. It actually gives a good parallel to explain why some people can become so consumed by the idea that aliens exist.
But how do people develop an opinion as to whether or not the aliens want to harm or help us? It can’t be based off of our moral behaviour, unless the aliens have some way of knowing enough about our culture to gain that information. Aliens will take the bad as well as the good, it seems, though we assume that they might prefer humans who are physically healthy (since they’d be scientifically advanced)... hmmm…
@stump Well that’s an interesting view – I appreciate this answer – even though I think a literal rapture is hooey.
I can tell y’all right now that I’m as good as screwed when it comes to this linear algebra quiz I’m about to have in an hour. X(
@shadling21…and would probably prefer ones that don’t have attachments to being saved mystically, since they’d be doing things to actually save the world.
“as (and often better than) church-going worshipers.”
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
MATTHEW 6:5
@holden Maybe the rapture will save you.
@JeanPaulSartre I don’t discount a literal rapture. God saves people in a billion ways. I wouldn’t presume to say that God won’t do that. But it isn’t necessary. People are taken up in the Spirit all the time.
@ChazMaz That is a good quote. But it doesn’t mean that all worshipers are hypocrites.
@JeanPaulSartre I summon the aid of the great Mystical Space Dragon to help me in my hour of need.
@holden They eat bananas – you should sacrifice one.
@stump Fair enough. Like I’ve said I still think more attention should be paid to saving ourselves from our own man made rapture.
“But it doesn’t mean that all worshipers are hypocrites.”
If they are not willing to remove the face of man from God they are.
Ya know what. Most are. Wright it off as those end times.
Beware of false profits and in the end many will walk away from the word.
Those individuals preach the gospel and pray next to you.
I find Fluther a better group of Gods chose people.
@ChazMaz I am not sure what you mean by ‘remove the face of man from God’. Do you mean the face of Jesus (a man), or the face of a minister or priest?
Also, many people may be duped by hypocrites, but they themselves are sincere.
I also think it is great that God speaks to you here on Fluther.
What I mean about “remove the face of man from God”.
“Gods” laws are man made. Inspired by who ever you want to inspire you. Epically if the bible is written on your soul. These laws are used to repress the weak and make the rich strong. Keep the sheep in line is the Shepard’s job. The sheep staying happy and safe. And sheep.
Most never stop to see (and question) who God really is. especially when we have to worry about “burning in hell”.
“I also think it is great that God speaks to you here on Fluther.”
My relationship with “God” is quite different then yours. “He” has no need to “speak” with me. Because I am God.
As we all are.
I get it.
Getting back to the rapture. If that floats your boat. Bon voyage.
Aw man, I missed all the action lol.
I think I’m gonna stick around for this. Dances with animated skeletons.
This “Rapture” thing really began to take of with a guy called Hal Lindsay publishing a book called The Late Great Planet Earth back in the 70’s. At the same time a Christian musician called Larry Norman was singing a song called I Wish We’d All Been Ready.
Some noted at the time that in the secular world a guy called Eric Von Daniken was becoming popular because of his book Chariots of the Gods, which was about aliens coming to earth and all that sort of
stuff. In that kind of atmosphere many believed in an imminent rapture
whoops. forgot about Hal LIndsay. as I said, though the Jehovah’s Witnesses got there first. (Von Daniken, though, didn’t say that aliens would come to Earth. he said that he already had.)
@snowberry to compare rapture to space dragons is not offensive given there is equal proof for both – just because you think space dragons are illogical but rapture isn’t doesn’t mean you make any sense.
@stump I’ve never heard the rapture described this way – that was interesting, thank you.
@snowberry Per believing it’s going to happen in 3 years. I’m a Christian. However, I was far more active in the church in the 80’s, and people kept giving rapture dates, and they were always within the next “few years.” And it doesn’t happen and doesn’t happen. It’s just crying wolf, and it gets old.
I had Christian friend who read a book by, I think, Timothy LeHay that listed out all the current “signs” that proved we were in the end times, and the rapture would happen in the next three years. My girlfriend was just awed at the “accuracy” of the prediction, and how it all tied together. She said, “Wow…we only have three years….”
I said, “Um. when was the book written?”
She looked, and fell silent, because it had been written 5 years earlier….just gets old.
Theyve been predicting the “Second Coming” ever since the crucifiction. There was an article on this in the mag “Christianity Today” years ago about this – I think it was when “rapture mania” was at its height in the 80’s.
“I think it was when “rapture mania” was at its height in the 80’s.’
SO true, let’s not forget the bar coding craze either.
666 was showing up on all our food.
@ChazMaz You know, I always took all of that stuff with a huge grain of salt BUT if you research a little, and find out which lines correspond to which numbers (Like two thick double lines=a certain number, one thick line = another number, one thick and one thin = a number) you’ll find that the first, middle and last lines in a bar code is….6 6 & 6. :) Go check it out!
Yes, I have traveled to the 80’s. That whole bar code thing almost became a crazy. People were protesting, to stop bar codes from being put on food.
Way ahead of ya. :-)
Nothing more then a religious conspiracy theory. Lubricating the rapture to fit in a round hole easier.
@ChazMaz I know….it was pretty crazy and I was caught up smack in the middle of it. That’s not to say I fed into it, but it was insane. Every daycare was run by pedophiles, there were satanists running around stealing children for sacrifice….it was really crazy!
It is soooo sad. I hear some people have probably given away their world possessions, etc. And the media to be sensational have been reporting it as the “end of the world” not the “beginning of the end” as supposedly Harold Camping said.
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