Getting stoned and high addicted to drugs, really is a victimless crime?

Being drunk is a victimless crime. Forget the shattered cars and families along the way. These druggies need transport and money. Where does that come from? Family. Where that sting to the core? Family.

Victimless? What S***

Smoking pot is (usually) victimless. But drinking, doing meth, heroin, etc are all not victimless. Your details explain it all very well: the dangers of cooking meth, robberies, etc. Involving children is the worst though.
@Everest I can’t tell if you’re serious or not when you say: “Being drunk is a victimless crime”

Users addicted to any substance will go to any length to get their next fix, but it is problematic to generalize. Besides, any action will have many repercussions downstream that may not be very apparent. For example, I know users (not addicts) who have income and don’t steal and are otherwise responsible people. However , by the very fact they procure drugs, they are providing support to a seller who might in turn start to push shit on children and is also responsible for creating a demand for a meth lab or whatever. By the same token, there is probably a good chance any product you buy has a component that was manufactured by slave or child labor of which the final assembler/seller or his most immediate supplier may have no knowledge. The computer or smart phone you submitted yout question on may be one such product. And if not, your device required power to operate. That power mat have come from the combustion of fossil fuels or a nuclear reactor, both rife with environmental hazards and potential innocent victims downstream. What I’m trying to say is yes, there are desperate addicts out there that are scandalous trash but generalizations should be avoided, and one can find a victim in darn near any action, even one that seems extremely innocent.
See ya…..Gary/wtf

Living a western lifestyle can be considered a crime by the above standerds!
Look at the millions of people who are denied their Rights, their lands used to grow coffee instead of food to feed their families, wars fought over their oil and their profits pilfered, or whole economies carelessly obliterated due to OUR ADDICTION TO MATERIALISM!
Let’s really talk about the 800 lb gorillla in the rm. Using drugs is just to fill the emptyness caused by our way of thinking…

@Bagardbilla what are you talking about? The question was: Getting stoned and high addicted to drugs, really is a victimless crime?

It is definitely not a victimless crime. Many addicts resort to theft, often from their own families, to fund their addiction. Some commit heinous crimes while they are zoned out, such as the US fighter pilots that killed Canadian troops in Afghanistan because their judgement was clouded by speed. Those drugs are illegal with good reason.

@Violet Without wanting to turn this into another pot thread, why exactly do you think cannabis use is usually victimless?

Getting stoned, drunk or high is like running with a stick: It’s all fun and games until someone gets poked in the eye. The costs to society are huge. In addition to the problems stated above, there is also the damage to the economy. Funds are taken out of our economy and are sent overseas to cartels that can use them to further illegal activities.
The $10 spent for that “harmeless” baggie ultimately bought a $0.25 bullet that might be used against you.

Prohibition causes most of the negative effects of drugs:
Giving super-profitable business to criminals.
Criminalizing otherwise lawful and respectable citizens.
Socially marginalizing sections of society.

Highly addictive and physically and psychologically harmful drugs should be prohibited, but not enforced in the manner we observe in the USA. The rest of the world considers the US way of prohibition to be supremely idiotic.

Methamphetamine, cocaine, alcohol, other drugs like this ruin people’s bodies and minds and families.

Ganja, mushrooms and other psychs are primarily harmful to society because they are illegal.

Anyone who thinks ganja-smokers go round robbing grannies and breaking into cars to get their next “fix” is 50+ or stupid, but probably both. Same goes for anyone who believes MDMA puts holes in your brain, or taking LSD 7 times makes you legally insane.
This is all 100% All-American Bullshit and has no place in a modern, intellectual justice system.

MDMA doesn’t give people cancer or make them violent, how can it be worse than alcohol and tobacco?

If alcohol and tobacco are going to be legal, so should ganja and MDMA, people should be properly educated about the risks in every circumstance.

I suspect MDMA, ganja and LSD stay illegal, because when people take them, they tend to have some realizations about the exploitative nature of our society, that the establishment would rather they kept repressed in their unconscious…

Altering your state of mind not only robs you of your personality and the opportunity to be productive during your stoned moments, it robs those around you of the precious time we have on this planet to interact and enjoy the positive contribution of interpersonal relationships.

I think maybe 90% of the people in my country do 50%+ of their socializing whilst drinking.

I don’t think altering one’s state of mind makes one unable to socially interact. Far from it.
Alcohol, ganja and MDMA are all very social drugs.

The issue is with dependence and addiction. When people need to drink or whatever, then they become less social and less productive.

This is my source, along with a comment of my own. Emphasis is mine. http://www.essortment.com/articles/date_rape_100021.htm

Ecstasy is a synthetic amphetamine-like (speed-like), mind-altering drug that can cause you to hallucinate.
It has been known to cause death, especially when mixed with alcohol.

It is often mixed with speed by drug dealers, often without the user knowing. Ecstasy does not often come in a capsule, btw. To see some photos see our drug photos page, so you will know what they look like if you see them.

MDMA, also referred to as Ecstasy or XTC is one of a series of “designer drugs” created by chemically modifying methamphetamine. One of the other drugs in this class is MDA (3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine). To read more on this drug, read our article on Ecstasy. Or check out these websies: www.mninter.net/~publish/Photo21b.htm and www.maps.org/research/mdma/index.html (For more drug links, go to the Drug Links page).
By now you are probably saying you have heard of Ecstasy and that it is not a date rape drug.

It has been reported as a Date Rape Drug by law enforcement agencies in the United States and Canada, as it has been given unknowingly to many victims since its appearance in the mid-1980s.

So we decided to include it here for educational purposes, but more and more Ecstasy is being used to enhance the effects of alcohol and marijuana, PLEASE don’t mix these drugs, it can be a deadly combination! Some teens think the speed-like feelings they get from Ecstasy will counteract the downer feelings of alcohol and pot—wrong again!

It is important to note that most of the deaths that have occurred from MDMA have been from dehydration. If this drug is used it must be taken with a lot of water. WE are NOT recommending the use of this drug, just providing information.

Signs And Symptoms

Signs and symptoms
of Ecstasy are similar to those of speed and cocaine…

Anxiety
Blurred vision
Confusion
Chills or sweating
Heart rate very fast, and increase in blood pressure
Rapid eye movement
Tremors
Inability to sleep

This means anyone with a heart condition or blood pressure problems can DIE from taking it

It isn’t as dangerous as driving a car.

It sure would be dangerous if you were on this stuff and driving. I think I made my point above.

What, that it is far less harmful to society and individuals than alcohol?

I don’t even need to present research on the negative effects of alcohol,
almost everyone has personal experience.

Because that “drug” use might not hurt anyone. There is still a victim.

That victim is you. We just happen to live in a society that thinks if it does not hurt others then it is ok.

@ChazMaz Do we? I thought we had prohibition? In fact, I know we have prohibition.
We live in a society that thinks moral standards of right and wrong can be applied to behaviour which has no effect whatsoever on other people.
It’s almost thoughtcrime.

Nevertheless, I do not believe most drugs should be legal, they are harmful in ways that many people cannot understand. I know that is paternalism, but it’s OK because I am right.

Attend a few “family group” sessions for people in recovery from addiction if you want to see some victims. And that’s just for starters.

@Violet Sarcasm, dear. Read the bottom line.

I live in Holland and here it’s legal to smoke weed. I take a hit from the bong after a day of school or work. To relax. When I need to do something afterwards I get it done while stoned. I wouldnt say Im a criminal at all bc Im a student and go to work, from my salary I get my bag of weed from the coffeeshop. And then I smoke it at home, where I can’t bother anyone with my smoking. Or friends come over and smoke some too. So its not like I dont have a social life, I go out, do stuff, meet with friends when I feel like it. But most of the time I just feel like relaxing bc Im tired from work and have to go to bed in a few hours. So. Weed is very harmless here. It might have changed my personality a little, but my mother was the major cause of my personality shfting, hell, she lead me to smoke cigarettes bc she used to smoke but quit but then would agrue with my daily, causing stress to a 14/15 year old, which led me to find a way to relieve stress. First came cigarettes then weed.

Victimless crime? No.
It doesn’t matter if it’s cannabis or heroin – As @Everest said, these drugs need to be transported, there’s huge money involved. I’m positive that if you did some research on the subject, you would discover the horror that goes on during the process of transportation. There’s huge damage done here.
Think of a mule who takes on a “job” as he’s in desperate need of money. He gets caught at an airport security checkpoint. He goes to jail. Now think of him & his family.
This is before the drugs even get into the hands of the user.
When it comes to that, I agree with what @Jeruba said.

Even if all drugs were decriminalized, that would not make them harmless with the possible exception of pot.

Drug addiction changes the personality of the addict, and, even if the drug was legalized, the addict would still lose attachment to family (victims), eventually be unable to work (addict is the victim), cause auto accidents (obvious victims), etc.

The drug would have to be free for an addict to not resort to prostitution, stealing, etc., because part of addiction is being unable to do anything but chase the drug. That means no jobs and, again, back to stealing or prostitution.

Considering that Extacy (MDMA) is often used as a date rape drug, it obviously has a victim, and is a crime. (see my post above if you missed that point)

@FireMadeFlesh see @whyigottajoin‘s answer. Also, no one had ever died from smoking pot. (I’m not talking about drug dealing/dealers). People who smoke pot are usually calm, mellow, and harmless.

Recreational use of drugs is relatively harmless, as long as the user can afford it, other than the usual self-harm. One reason most addictions are dangerous is because the addict usually can’t afford it, and the addiction itself requires more and more of the substance to maintain the high. Addiction often drives the afflicted and they lose any semblance of self control. They become their own victims.

@Violet Maybe he needs to see the research on the brain damage that can be caused by long term cannabis use. They are usually mellow, relaxed people, but like any other drug they will do anything to get it if they are suddenly unemployed, such as depriving themselves of necessities or theft.

@FireMadeFlesh that’s why I said usually

Your two examples are theft and blowing up a meth lab.

Is it really using drugs that causes these things?

Or is it the fact that drugs are illegal, which means a number of things:

1) They are not regulated, so there is no guidance of what is a “safe” dosage, if there is such a thing.
2) Since they have to be purchased illegally, ANYONE can purchase them…there are no age restrictions, no restrictions for people who maybe have a problem with certain chemicals, no way to tell who’s going to get it.
3) Since they have to be purchased illegally, there is a great deal of risk involved in the distribution and sale. The combination of having a product which is hard to find, which has a “captive” audience, and for which one must risk his very life to get the product in the hands of the end user make drugs very, very expensive to obtain. Basic supply and demand…large demand, supply restricted because it’s illegal to produce, possess, transport or sell, and because it’s dangerous to produce, possess, transport or sell.
4) Because of the huge profit margins associated, people are willing to kill or risk their lives to produce, possess, transport and sell them. As the creation of meth, for example, can result in virtual overnight wealth for anyone willing to play amateur chemist, a number of people who don’t have enough common sense to know that there is no easy way to get rich quick, will try their hand at it. As production is unregulated, there is no qualification process, and someone who may not only be stupid, but messed up as well might be trying to master a complex chemical process, even if they got D’s in high school chemistry.

I’ve always felt that a number (not all, but a number) of drugs could be legalized, they could be produced by the government at a very low cost, and could generate huge revenues for the government. These revenues could be used to do a number of things:

1) Educate potential users…not only general education starting at an early age in school, more than just one semester, but continually reinforced, and taught “honestly”, meaning it’s not just a teacher saying over and over that “drugs are bad”, but explaining both the benefits and drawbacks of each drug in an honest way…give people all the information and they won’t assume you’re bullshitting them.
2) Licensing users for particular drugs, and repeating step one, provide all the benefits and consequences in a thorough education course which would require a test in order to become a licensed user of any drug.
3) Incentivise legal purchasing rather than illegal purchasing. The black market is what causes drug gangs, kids murdering each other in the street because they’re looking for an easy way out of poverty….if you had to get a license to use a drug, that alone might not quash the black market because some people would not want to be “known” as users, but if you undercut the illegal market by pricing drugs where they are way cheaper to buy officially than under the table, but where there was yet a huge profit margin, you would do away with a lot of gang activity.
4) Make sure that certain jobs could not be obtained if one was a user of certain drugs…make sure that you couldn’t jeopardize anyone’s safety if you got stoned and went to work.
5) Law enforcement would have a MUCH smaller role in drug enforcement, they would only need to go after the very small black market which would probably attempt to sell to the people who maybe are too young to get a license, have decided to circumvent the process or have failed the tests.
6) The combination of drug revenues with reduced law enforcement costs would leave a great deal of money to be used for treatment programs for those who found that drugs began to negatively impact their lives.

I believe you would have a share of people who otherwise wouldn’t do drugs who would try them and maybe become addicted, some of whom might even OD, if drugs were legalized. That’s the downside. But I think you could save a lot more people, because:

1) Some who got into it when they were offered it as a kid, and were never educated properly, would surely say it wasn’t worth it.
2) People concerned about getting certain professional jobs would surely say it wasn’t worth it.
3) A LOT less people would die in the streets because there would no longer be a restricted supply and a ton of unmet demand jacking the price of drugs through the roof, incentivising the risk of brining them to market.
4) A LOT more people could receive treatment as it would be funded by drug revenues.
5) Many who suffer in other countries at the hands of warlords financed by drug profits from America would be able to break free of murderous oppression, as it would no longer be worth doing for many of these people.
6) More people who chose to use drugs would have the tools they needed to know how much is enough and how much is too much.
7) No one would be taking risks by creating an inferior product at home, risking their lives, when they could cheaply obtain what they wanted legally.
8) There would be no more overdoses because of inconsistent quality…it would be standardized and homogenized.

I would think there might still be some drugs (cocaine, heroin, etc) which might not be safe in any dosage…or maybe certain drugs could be administered by a professional physician only. The amount a person could obtain could be limited…one would have to give their drug license to purchase, it would be hooked up to a database, and no one could sell to you if you’d already bought more than your allotment. Yes, this would drive some more people to the black market, but again, I think if we weren’t fighting literally thousands of organized gangs and jailing millions of casual drug users, I think the black market would be a very, very small part of the picture. Again, we’d have plenty of money to dedicate to law enforcement in this area.

Plus, I believe there’s enough profit to be had, even if the prices were reduced radically, to eliminate our budget deficit, pay off our national debt, and have enough money to meet the social needs of people who are currently suffering, starving or dying because they need a hand up and the government can’t afford to give it to them.

So yeah, I don’t see how using drugs is anything BUT a victimless crime. There are a lot of things that aren’t crimes that aren’t always victimless, like drunk driving, but is drinking equal to victimizing the person killed by the drunk driver, or is making a bad decision to drive while intoxicated what is victimizing the person killed by the drunk driver?

We have already been through this in the case of alcohol. Sure, in any crowd there is always someone who can’t hold his liquor. That is no reason to take it away from everyone else. Once you make it illegal, people no longer drink wine and beer moderately at home with meals. They drink hard liquor in speakeasies, where they drink to get drunk. Date rapists are going to rape regardless of what substances are available to them, and people who are inclined to hold up liquor stores will do so whether or not the liquor is legal.

What irks me are that people who are stone cold sober can still be so out of touch with reality that they will take this same failed policy, and continue to apply it for 70 years in the face of overwhelming evidence that drug prohibition has been no more successful than alcohol Prohibition in curtailing the use of any of these substances. Moreover, these clean and sober drug virgins can create one of the most horrific, expensive (and certainly the largest) prison system in the history of the world—causing untold misery to the millions of families that have been destroyed by having their breadwinners ripped from their lives and sent to prison on some bullshit drug charge.

Keep in mind that at one time heroin, cocaine and pot were all legal. In fact, they were sold over the counter as patent medicines, with very little harm to anyone and certainly no crime. Pot was made illegal, not because it was in any way harmful (it does not cause brain damage) but because William Randolph Hearst wanted to protect his newsprint monopoly from competition from paper made from hemp (which would have been ¼th the cost).

How opiates became illegal is another story of duplicity, double-dealing, bureaucratic ambition. All of this is well documented in Mike Gray’s Drug Crazy which you can download in its entirety for free.

Not to the guys on night shift in hospitals treating alcohol poisoning and opiate overdoses.

What about the many, many, many more lung cancers and heart disease cases?

MDMA is not “often” used as a date rape drug.

Even the “date rape” drugs (GHB etc) are used far more often for recreational purposes than “date rape”.

Plus, did we forget to mention the No.1 date-rape drug of all time, alcohol?

While alcohol is legal, there is simply no case for prohibition of MDMA, ganja and other psychs. Hell, even opium is far less harmful than alcohol or tobacco.

About weed; it’s proven cannabis itself isn’t addictive, the nicotine you smoke with it is. So even if I dont have the money to go out and get weed I would just simply smoke a cigarette instead.
Not that I start chainsmoking when I dont have weed, I can do well with taking a break from smoking weed.

Heroin however, when addicted to that, people will do crazy stuff to get their “hit”.

So I would say, people addicted to hard drugs cause more victims then people who do soft drugs (smoke weed, cigarettes, alcohol) b/c not being able to get soft drugs usually shouldnt make you go insane. But the craving and need for hard drugs can lead to crime and therefor victims.

@whyigottajoin Actually, there is no nicotine in pot. In fact, it appears to help some people to break their addiction to nicotine.

You also drastically overstate the addictiveness of heroin. Heroin is far easier to kick cold turkey than cigarettes. The real problem with being addicted to heroin is that people consider you less than human, and they consider every heroin addict capable of the worst thing they have ever heard (and everyone has heard a horriffic story). A great many heroin addicts become demoralized. But once they rediscover their innate self-worth, it is very easy for them to kick.

I knew one heroin addict (my step-daughter) who never missed a day of work, and who never stole anything, and who quit just as soon as she had gotten pregnant .

Don’t kid yourself, there are way more people who are stone cold sober who commit heinous crimes than “people craving hard drugs.” You’re not really helping anybody by mindlessly repeating “stuff” (stereotypes and drug war propaganda) you’ve heard.

@Zuma Thats exactly what I ment, there is no nicotine in pot, only in the tabak you smoke with it. Weed itself doesnt have nicotine, and therefore isnt addictive. That’s why I smoke cigarettes when I’m out of weed! (I live in Holland I know more about pot then the average person, I know little about heroin though)
I’m not repeating anything, my FATHER was a herion addict, thank god I dint have to see him go though it, but he went to jail twice for it, and the man isnt normal anymore, he has a girlfriend who is MY AGE, (so she could be his daughter) and my point is my brother tells me that he isnt himself anymore and has a different reality. He had lots of trouble quitting! He quit once, started again, went to jail again, quit again. I dont know if he uses now.
And you know, if I got pregnant, I would quit cigarettes cold turkey a soon as I find out. No question about it. Of course, when becoming a mother, you can quit ANYTHING cold turkey, when your baby is born and you breastfeed and he/she is alergic to anything, chocolate, cheese whatever, I’d quit those things in a jippy too!
But a man, who has no mother instinct, take my father for instance, who doesn’t have a baby inside him he would do anything for, would have a lot more trouble quitting I can imagine.
So just answer the question, I’m not saying Im an expert in weed and herion or anything, I’m mearly trying to provide some facts, like, weed has no nicotine, to answer the question, so please just chill. And I didnt say it’s a fact that people craving hard drugs commit crimes I said its more likely that a person addicted to hard drugs will comit a crime then a person addicted to soft drugs, read my answer correctly!! And don’t go all personal on me.

The victims of drug addiction are the addicts themselves. Society is a victim because of the gross over-reaction instigated by religious and political control freaks.

Sure addicts do stupid things that harm others For that they should be punished. Being drunk or addicted should not be a mitigating factor in the punishment. The real problem is stupidity, not addiction. Unfortunately, there is no cure for stupidity and the rest of society shouldn’t be punished for the problems caused by people on both sides of the drug issue. I think it should be a cage fight between the abolitionist and the addict. The winner is declared innocent and the public is protected because the combatants are in the cage.

@The_Idler I don’t think altering one’s state of mind makes one unable to socially interact. Far from it.
Alcohol, ganja and MDMA are all very social drugs.
The issue is with dependence and addiction. When people need to drink or whatever, then they becomeless social and less productive.
Would there be any dependence if the person did not resort to it in the 1st place? For instance, if a person was shy and took to drinking or doping because that provided access to groups or crowds because that is what they socially did, once the person has made friends in that culture, how would they know to stop if that is what is providing them the human interaction they crave? They could psychologically talk themselves into being addicted even if their body would suffer no ill effects if they quit. If they talk themselves into needing drugs, or whatever to keep access to the social connectedness they may find it too expensive and result to drastic means to get the money for it.

@YARNLADY Recreational use of drugs is relatively harmless, as long as the user can afford it, other than the usual self-harm.
What recreational drug is guaranteed to be affordable no matter what income the user has, of if they lost their job, while we are at it, one that will give a high the user wants all the time off the same amount never causing them to need more and more?