Would it be a good idea to make it optional to keep track of your lurve?

I don’t see why it matters.

My name is @janbb and I’m addicted to lurve. Don’t let the government mess with my Medicare and don’t let Fluther mess with my lurve.

People will lurve for appreciation and good answer/question. Unlike the old AB(people used to act more avaricious toward score there),here in fluther we all only can give ‘one’ lurve(score) for each question/answer. I think fluther is already good the way it is now. If you really want to add this new feature then you must get vote from people first(as many people like the way it is now).

I don’t really care one way or the other. I like lurve, but I care a lot more about seeing that someone gave me a great answer than I do about my number increasing.

What I would love is the ability to hide awards. I really don’t like having to scroll past the awards section on profiles. They take up too much space and don’t serve any function.

And shit like this is annoying.

No one forces you to look at your lurve, and even if you do, no one forces you to attribute any meaning to it. There is, of course, very little consequence, if any, to it, so any attention paid to it—such as that in this question—is far more than it deserves. Just put on your blinders and give some good answers to questions! Excuse me. Great answers!

The lights are on, but you’re not home
your mind is not your own
your heart sweats, your body shakes
another GA is what it takes

You can’t sleep, you can’t eat
there’s no doubt, you’re in deep
your throat is tight, you can’t breathe
another GA is all you need

Whoa, you like to think that you’re immune to the stuff, oh Yeah
it’s closer to the truth to say you can’t get enough,
you know you’re gonna have to face it, you’re addicted to Lurve.

@thriftymaid
@wundayatta
I think you miss the point.
Nobody forces us to care about lurve, that’s true. But if you’re on a diet and there’s a pile of free chocolate of your favourite kind right next to you, nobody forces you to eat it either, but it would still be easier not to give in to the temptation if you could at least look the other way.
That’s what I’m talking about. A bad habit people want to get over. And while it’s always technically possible to ignore scores with your brain instead of with an on-site feature, the latter would be a lot easier.

@janbb
I think you miss the point too.
Notice how I used the word “optional”. That means you can hold on to your lurve if you want to.

@everyone who doesn’t care about lurve anyway:
This thread is not for you. I’m suggesting an option you clearly don’t need.

What went wrong here? Did I write this thread in French by accident?

@Fyrius Yes. It’s there and you can’t say no. The addiction. Lurvaholics Anonymous is what will help. You can’t expect someone to post a guard at the liquor store to keep you out. Asking for help in this matter is just proclaiming your addiction to everyone. You are not alone in that, either. And don’t be fooled. It’s not the lurve; it’s the interactions. It’s that it seems like it all matters.

But no. Even if the liquor store were boarded up, you’d try to find your habit somewhere else. You were at AB, weren’t you? No matter. If fluther closed, you’d go somewhere else. You’d find another form of lurve.

As addictions go, it doesn’t harm your body so much. It does harm relationships. You disappear to the people around you. You are always online. Always fluthering. It may also keep you from going outside and getting exercise. It may keep you from trying to find real world relationships. This is so much easier. And safe. Rejection isn’t so fearsome. If you’re told to fuck off, there’s always a dozen others.

I think you’re fooling yourself if you think you can stay away from lurve, or any lurve substitue. Having it locked in a cabinet won’t help. You’ll find a way to get at it. If you want to stop, you have to stop yourself. You have to take responsibility for what you are doing, choose to stop, and actually stop.

I didn’t expect a simple suggestion to turn into an epic tale about a struggle with addiction, either. Nor did I anticipate a point missing competition.

I was on the internet long before I first came across any site where attention was quantifiable as it is here; I enjoyed the internet without it then, and I don’t doubt I could be happy without it now. There are plenty of sites I still happily visit and contribute to that don’t have any popularity contest aspects, or any individual identity for that matter. (Incidentally, no, I wasn’t on AnswerBag.)
Things being as they are, if you’re bent on being a reasonably objective person, lurve just gets in the way. It supplies a bias. It’s an incentive to turn into a politician, tweaking your posts to suit what others will approve of. And if you don’t mind that, that’s cool with me, but I really don’t think it would be such an insane idea to make it possible to give up lurve but not Fluther.

Things being as they are, you can jabber on about personal responsibility until the cows come home, but it’s not even possible to choose to stop, not without leaving the site altogether. Providing such a possibility is exactly what I’m proposing.

@Fyrius, are you saying you’re in need an intervention and we need to send you to the Fluther 12-step program, Lurve Whore Anonymous, because you’re consumed with the points?

f you’re bent on being a reasonably objective person, lurve just gets in the way. It supplies a bias. It’s an incentive to turn into a politician, tweaking your posts to suit what others will approve of.

I wonder if you can provide any evidence of this. I know I don’t do this. I am never anything but honest, even when it doesn’t reflect well on me. I get lurve despite that, or maybe because of it. I don’t know.

Comments that I think will get lots of lurve get none, and comments that I just toss off get lots of lurve. I defy anyone to show they can predict which comments will get lurve. You say it yourself:

”I didn’t expect a simple suggestion to turn into an epic tale about a struggle with addiction, either. Nor did I anticipate a point missing competition.”

I don’t think your perception of the lurve system is at all accurate. Or, at the very least, my perception is quite different. I could be wrong, too.

Oh, for crying out loud. Will you freaking listen to me? I’m not arguing for abolishment of the lurve system. I’m not asking for personal help to ward off the lurve demons. Read the bloody question.

I’m suggesting the option not to get lurve, if you decidedly want to help people for the sake of helping them instead of for the brownie points.
I know at least one jelly who has buggered off altogether because the lurve was making him cynical. I also know from my own experience that the lurve system has a way of making me a bit vain, and I don’t like that development either. So excuse me for not having your impeccable self-control, mister never anything but honest.

Is it really such a horrible idea to give people a choice? What is it to you?

See also: http://www.fluther.com/disc/66529/how-do-you-imagine-fluther-without-lurve-and-prizes/

No need for frustration. I’m sorry that I don’t understand what you are getting at. I really don’t understand why this is an issue for you. How does lurve harm you in any way that a little mental training wouldn’t fix?

I’m suggesting that the option is completely unnecessary to achieve the goal you seek. Most people here seem to be able to provide assistance just for the sake of assistance—or the feedback they get privately. I think that needing to turn lurve off shows that you really do care about it.

Sorry about that “honest” comment. I got carried away, and shouldn’t have been bragging like that. You are right to call me on that.

@Fyrius FWIW, I have never imagined you tweeking your posts to garner GAs!

I did understand what you are suggesting and was making some fun in my jocular way. It’s a valid suggestion, I’m just a conservative (in some ways) curmudgeon who resists change.

I think Zen is constantly re-inventing himself to avoid the pitfalls of too much self-lurve. Perhaps you could become New Fyrius and Fyrius_Again or even Serious_Fyrius if you want to avoid the perils of too much lurve.

I’m not trying to be offensive here so I hope you don’t take it as such; I just think sometimes we all spend a lot of time in Fluther navel-gazing. As you may or may not know, you and @mattbrowne are two of the most rational thinkers on Fluther and I really admire you both.

@wundayatta
(Okay, I’ve taken a much needed proverbial chill pill. I’m sorry for virtually shouting at you. I’ll try again.)

It’s not really as much of a personal problem of mine as you seem to have the impression it is. I’m just throwing an idea out there that I think might make Fluther a better place for a lot of people. I also didn’t have a well-prepared case to make for it when I posted it.

But if you want to know, I’ll follow you on that tangent about my personal reasons to feel ambivalent about lurve.
In my case, visible popularity is an issue for two reasons. Vanity and affected judgement.

I’m not going to lie. I like being appreciated. Elsewhere appreciation might manifest itself as an occasional compliment, and then it’s just nice, but here it’s a constant stream of numbers. Here you’re constantly aware of the community’s fluctuating levels of appreciation. And that makes me vain. (I check my lurve side bar more than I check my activity. I wish that was a hyperbole.)

As for the second reason, although hiding the numbers will probably not solve this entirely, I mentioned that seeing how statements affect e-reputation can get in the way of being dedicated to reason. For all my efforts to keep my mind in check, knowing what makes the counter tick could affect my judgement on some halfway subconscious level I don’t even know how to recognise yet. Conformity is a fundamental psychological imperative that’s not to be trifled with. We all have a head full of ancient mental machinery from a time when not being liked was likely to get you freaking killed. I’m not an exception, and neither are you.
No offence, but this is why I doubt that you’re truly always honest. You may always adhere to what you think is the right thing, but peer pressure can and almost certainly will warp your perception of what is the right thing. No man is an island.

It’s one of my long-term projects to learn not to let what other people will think get in my way. It’s easy enough to have that as a policy, a rational decision to take. But on an emotional level I still have a long way to go. (You say “a little mental training” as if it’s nothing, but this sort of psyche rewiring can take years of practise.)

Okay, end tangent.

@janbb
“FWIW, I have never imagined you tweeking your posts to garner GAs!”
I really try not to. I feel very guilty and ashamed when I catch myself trying to be popular.

I hadn’t thought of the name changing technique. It’s an idea to consider.
(I like the name “Fyrius”, though… well, I can think about it.)

@Fyrius:

“Things being as they are, if you’re bent on being a reasonably objective person, lurve just gets in the way. It supplies a bias. It’s an incentive to turn into a politician, tweaking your posts to suit what others will approve of. And if you don’t mind that, that’s cool with me, but I really don’t think it would be such an insane idea to make it possible to give up lurve but not Fluther.”

I’m not really sure that’s a bad thing. While lurve, or even identity, (since, even if there were no lurve, Flutherites’ reputations would not go away as long as everyone has a different username and avatar,) can subtly influence the way people word their answers and otherwise represent themselves, I think this is probably for the best. When people care about how others will react, when people have an investment in what they say, I think it improves the quality of their answers.

“For all my efforts to keep my mind in check, knowing what makes the counter tick could affect my judgement on some halfway subconscious level I don’t even know how to recognise yet. Conformity is a fundamental psychological imperative that’s not to be trifled with.”

I agree, and I do think that in some cases, people will simply respond with a popular opinion knowing full well that they will be rewarded with lurve for it.

But when I think of the average Flutherite I think of someone who is intelligent, someone who will usually make a judgement based on reason rather than on a knee-jerk emotional response.

In “real life” people withhold certain unpopular opinions in certain company for exactly the same reason as they would here. While I like the idea of the internet as someplace where one can be free to express themselves honestly without needing to be concerned with social sanctions, I’m afraid that total anonymity would bring out the worst in people rather than the best. Internet trolls, for instance, can turn out to be pretty regular people if you meet them in person. Lurve enforces our sense of community, which in turn promotes civility. I agree that it, unfortunately, also causes a bias, but I think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

Ah @Fyrius. You are too honorable, I think. I don’t really worry about it because a long time ago I learned that I do it for myself and for others. They are intertwined. It’s how I build connections with people, and you know what? Why should I care about what anyone thinks about what I think I want from others. If I want to be loved, I’m perfectly prepared to earn that love.

As I already said, I take back the “always honest” claim. It’s bullshit. What I was getting at, I think, is that I try to not keep anything back. I try not to let fear of people casting judgments on me stop me from “speaking my truth.” I know that I don’t have to defend myself if I don’t want to. It’s not like anyone will chase me around. All I can lose is reputation and if I haven’t said enough horrible things about myself to damn myself by now, then I figure people here are pretty damn generous in withholding judgment.

Yes, I am influenced, but seriously, it isn’t by lurve. Lurve does not, as far as I can tell, represent what people are thinking at all. You get 100 lurve from congratulating someone on 10K, and then someone pms you with vociferous thanks about what you said, and you get no lurve. There is no way lurve can affect you because it is too random. You can try to get it, but it won’t work.

And yes, I am influenced by others. I’d never hop on a 10K chain if it weren’t for everyone else doing it. That kind of stuff—fluff—annoys me. My only redemption is that I try to emulate what whathefluther does. I try to say something personal to each person. I try to appreciate them.

But it’s all me. It’s the honest me and the slithery me. It’s the powerful me and the insanely insecure me. And maybe I am totally missing the point (yet again), but I just don’t believe that lurve affects anyone in a way that they stop being themselves.

@Fyrius Again, not meaning any offense but what do you see as the role of emotion and emotional needs in your life?

I never look at my total.

I think it gets a lot easier to ignore once you’ve hit 10K. With the quality of your posts, you’ll be there in no time! Then, you can rest on your laurels and never give it another thought. ;-)

I can see it being a harmless addition that could help some. I am even leaning towards thinking it is a good idea.

Okay, I’m going to post this reply in two parts.

@pretty much everyone:
Oh, all right then, never mind. Bad idea. Noted.

@petethepothead
“When people care about how others will react, when people have an investment in what they say, I think it improves the quality of their answers.”
For certain people, this is probably true.
And for others it isn’t. I for one write my posts with just as much care on anonymous websites as I do here.

“While I like the idea of the internet as someplace where one can be free to express themselves honestly without needing to be concerned with social sanctions, I’m afraid that total anonymity would bring out the worst in people rather than the best.”
True again, for many people. There’s plenty of empirical evidence for the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory. (We probably all know about the notorious /b/.)
And again, false for others. I believe that internet fuckwadhood is essentially a phase, even if most people haven’t yet shown any sign of outgrowing it. If you eventually get used to anonymity, you’ll also get over the rush of unpunished mischief and realise there’s really no point to it.
People who have reached that stage are probably a minority, I know, but then again my suggestion was only for a (non-default) option to choose not to get lurve. I think deciding to give up lurve would take some maturity, which you wouldn’t have until you’ve at least outgrown the level of internet fuckwaddery.
(Admittedly that’s mostly speculation, though.)

@wundayatta
“Lurve does not, as far as I can tell, represent what people are thinking at all.”
That’s a good point.

@janbb
I’ll owe you an answer for a bit longer. It’s a difficult question. And the answer is a bit of a long story. (But I’m on a backstory exposition roll now anyway, so what the heck.)

@Fyrius Thanks – I know it’s a bit of a ballsy question, but I am seriously interested.

Haha, no problem.
It’s no secret that I don’t mind talking about myself. Which leads to a lot of other things about me being no secret either. :P
That’s vanity too, I know. Bad Fyrius.

Gotta love the internet. Who’d a thunk a penguin and a dog could have an intelligent conversation?

I know. It’s like we’re in a children’s book that’s way too complicated for its target audience.

Apologies for the delay. Introspection can be difficult and confusing work.

@janbb
You asked: “what do you see as the role of emotion and emotional needs in your life?”

Truth me told, I’m not sure. It’s something I’m still figuring out.
Maybe you suspect I think of emotion as something cumbersome that only gets in the way of glorious logic. That’t not it. I accept emotion as an indispensable aspect of the human condition.

I think of myself as someone with the mind of a cat and the heart of a sheep.
I believe I’m a sentimental person by nature, and a rationalist by choice. I’m also a coward by nature and an explorer by choice, and that makes me feel ambivalent about some of my emotional needs. I think my rationalist ambitions shouldn’t be allowed to let me lose sight of my sentimental side (because I do value that too, as I recently mentioned), but neither can emotions be allowed to derail me from pursuing what dry reason tells me is the right thing.

I don’t like to bring this up, but I’d leave out an important piece of the puzzle if I don’t also mention again that I didn’t have the good fortune to be born with a properly functioning mind. This is why self-improvement is important to me, not emotionally but for the sake of having a proper life. I’ve spent my childhood learning things most people already know and reverse-engineering underdeveloped mental machinery. This is an ongoing project.
This is no reason to feel bad for me or to gasp at how awesome I must be. I was still born in a very wealthy place to two very supportive parents, so I absolutely didn’t “lose the birth lottery” altogether. But maybe it’ll help you understand why I can’t always accept what I’m like by nature.

So how do my emotional needs and I get along?
Sometimes like best friends. Sometimes like a parent and a spoiled child. Sometimes like vermin and an exterminator. And sometimes like a scientist and a series of Very Complicated Things, just trying to make heads or tails of them. And a politician trying to decide what the scientist’s findings mean I should do with them.

Fun fact: I have now been editing, tweaking, second-guessing, revising and rewriting this post for over two hours. That’s how well I understand the subject matter.

@Fyrius Thank you so much for your long and thoughtful post. I appreciate the chance to get to know you better.

@Fyrius and @janbb Me, too. Wonderful explanation!

@Fyrius your thinking was starting to win me over…i wonder if you acquiesced to soon. Certainly an option to display lurve won’t be embraced by all. It would be interesting to see how and if sporadic displays would change dynamics. I think we have heard lots of reasons why certain people wouldn’t choose the option. It would be interesting to hear more people talk about why they would. But, I don’t want to force open a box that has been closed.

I appreciated your interaction with janbb. Thank you for sharing.

Hey, I put this idea out here, do with it what you want. I don’t have any exclusive rights to decide whether we talk about it or not. If you want to pursue the idea further, go ahead. You hardly need my permission.
But I think I’m done talking about it. I’ve given my arguments.

And you’re all welcome.

Hi. My name is Prolificus. I’m a lurveaholic. I wish I had more lurve to prove it.

Actually, I think if lurve tracking was optional, I’d have an obsession with hitting the toggle switch and peeking occasionally.

I think the lurve as it is might be necessary for the site to work as it does. The style of the site is what makes people use it the way they do, I think. It has it’s problems though. Maybe if you could choose between it being visible to others or not. . . I don’t know.

I want more lurve…

don’t see it as a big deal myself!

Who would ever thought people could get so heated on a question about lurves! Nothing like a good “cat fight” over “nuttin” !