Can I be a good person and still go to hell?

The Christian faith does not rely on the righteousness of the person. According to Christianity, All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Righteousness comes by putting on Christ’s righteousness. I’m not preaching here, I am just explaining her belief system.

”What’s your view on her statement?”

It’s horseshit because Hell doesn’t exist.
When you die, you’re either cremated or buried. Nothing more, nothing less.
Unless you’re murdered, chopped up into itty bitty pieces, stuffed in a suitcase and never found. Then we don’t really know where you go.

I just thought it was odd to hear.

Yes. Good people can get sent to hell by mistake . See The Innocence Project and read a couple of case studies.

Organized religion does teach that. That’s why there’s all the “our way is the only way to get into heaven” stuff. Not exclusive to Christianity (I think).

You get some real shits that call themselves Christians, they go to church, they accept Jesus as their saviour, but they are still shit heads. I am a Christian and I get ashamed of people like this. Judi answered the question perfectly. Just because they say certain things but do other things does not mean they gain entry into Heaven. It’s none of her dam business, ones relationship with God is PRIVATE. I answer to Him no one else. Yes I am his wayward child!!

Honestly, it really just depends on what you believe. I’ve read that a lot of people really, truly believe that once you have a child out of wedlock, that child and that child’s offspring all are damned to hell. We’re talking endless generations, here.

That being said, there are a lot of “old rules” that people break and aren’t worried about Hell. Just be a good person and see what happens is all I can really say.

I think the lady was just saying that along with trying to live your life as a good person there must be redemption and justification as well as acknowledgment of sin. These are part of the Christian Faith.

I went to a school for a year where they taught pre-destination – it was decided before you were born if you will go to heaven or hell. What you do on Earth will not change that, but if you do well, it’s a good sign.

Also, accepting Jesus as the son of God was necessary to go to heaven. So things like being born 3,000 years ago, or growing up Jewish, or dying in childbirth meant an eternity burning in hell. Literally on fire and suffering forever.

They believe wealthy people are obviously on the right track, poor people are gonna burn. And as church members they “know” they have E-tickets, so whatever they do is God’s work and justified.

It was basic training for sociopaths.

@worriedguy If I were in prison, I’d be “innocent”, too.

I am a good person and I am in Hell. So… yeah, I can see that.

But I’m also of the opinion that if God is mighty and omniscient then you would be judged by your actions and thoughts, not whose collection plate you made heavier.

Ok, the lady you are describing has an “exclusivist” view of what Christianity teaches…in other words “I’m right, and they’re wrong/ We’re in, the rest miss out”....this is a very OLD fashioned, classical stance.

ACTUALLY in 1965 the Catholic Church adopted an INCLUSIVIST view of other religions….in other words, they still think THEY are RIGHT, but they believe by Christ’s saving grace, the salvation of these others will be included….AND these are the head honchos we are talking about making this decision.

So at the end of the day, this is just this one womens oppinion….Many famous religious “Christian” figures, take this inclusivist stance…

SOOO Good people, who seek out God, will be saved by the Grace of God.

THE END :)

Well I believe the pope is planning on visiting Alaska so yeah.

@meagan I’ve heard that too. Everyone in prison is innocent. Just ask them.
Except!!! In rare cases they really are innocent. DNA testing by the Innocence Project has proven this. Some people have been let out after serving 20 years. How can they ever be compensated?
Sometimes when someone says “I didn’t do it. You got the wrong man.” they are telling the truth. See Rickie Johnson . I’d classify 25 years in prison as hell.

If you was bad for 10 years, stealing, killing, etc. Then asked god (by praying) to forgive you. and you absolutely will change then you’re saved. You don’t have to go to church, or read the bible. But as long as you always do the right thing, help people out, and be thankful for what you have. even if it’s in the streets. You’re still alive. you’re good and you will go to heaven.

I don’t know about people who don’t believe in him.

But I use to be bad, run around, go in the store and steal, I use to cuss at my mom, run from the cops, beat up people. One day I got what I deserved. I went to a dentition home.
One night while I was laying in my bed at the dentition home. I prayed to god. which I never did before, I was suppose to get a year in the home. But after 3 months I got out, my mom said “she couldn’t handle me being in here”. I thought this was just luck. But it wasn’t.

I went to the store a couple weeks after that. I was going to steal a candy bar. It was $3 dollars. I only had $2 in my pocket. I bought that with my drink.

So I almost put the candy bar in my pocket before something told me “not to do it” I stopped, I went to the registration. gave her both my soda and candy bar. I played dumb and lied said I lost money. which was wrong. But the lady behind me in line said “you want an extra dollar?.

I was thinking if god made that lady gave me that dollar, even though I was lying about I thought I had an extra couple of dollars. But I guess god knew I was hungry (I use to not have food at the house)

I’ll skip a lot. but if I pray to god. something always good happens. I have a handsome son. (Even though I’m only 18) And, a beautiful girlfriend who I love and we’re about to make 3 years together.

My grandma is the one in the family who’s full Christian. I use to always go over to her house. When she was praying, she would speak a different language. She said a true Christian only can speak that. it’s speaking gods tung.
(Keep in mind she’s white)

I’m just saying. you could do a lot of wrong, but you can always ask for forgiveness (If you don’t play him and just do it again that is)

I don’t believe that a transcendent form of hell even exists. People who are bad and not good often face hell right here on planet Earth. Because remorse can make people feel miserable. Because prison can make people feel miserable. Because shame can make people feel miserable. If your friend tries to be a good person, she might not find an earthly paradise but what she will find is most certainly not hell. Your friend sounds like a wonderful person expressing doubts. Which is a good thing. As long as you also have good friends to talk to about your doubts.

PEOPLE…the question wasnt about prison…....

On the flip side, can I be a stinking rotten sinner and still get to heaven? Please tell me yes. please say yes

Depends on the brand of the can of horseshit you open. Some say so some don’t.

Personally, i wouldn’t think about it too much, afterall, there’s no evidence for any of that, and, for all they know, they’re gonna end into Hel because they didn’t die in battle like Odin wanted them to. It’s equally likely and just as possible.

@escapedone7 Yes you can, as long as you accept jesus christ as your lord and saviour, apparently. This according to most protestants.

I really don’t think Jesus is some big cartoon character that everyone makes him out to be… That once you are “saved” you get a get out of jail free card.
Just because you’re scared into religion but continue to sin, I doubt that you’ll be treated as fairly as a good Christian that has been kind and charitable.

Oh. I think I misread the first initial question – can you be a non-Christian but a good person, and go to hell?
You mean… worshiping “false” Gods (like the bible says). Yeah.
(This is all sounding so harsh from me. I’m just trying to give constructive criticism. :-/ I’m not so good at this.)

Example : I always clean the neighborhood myself cuz i luv doing good things. What I did not know was that the cleaning guy lost his job because folks didnt feel the need to hav him around. He cursed me, and i went to hell.

Something like that???

Not even bad people go to hell. Everyone, good or bad, religious or non-religious, simply dies at the end of their life, and is no more. The afterlife is a relic of a superstitious past.

Even if heaven and hell where actual destinations, there are so many unknown and/or uncontrollable variables that seem to influence where you wind up that it’s not worth losing sleep over.

About the best anyone can do is his best…and hope for the best.

@FireMadeFlesh just because humans can not explain something…or know the answer to something, or its exact location…does not mean it does not exist. Humans have HUGE limitations…So relying on something like science, which is JUST a human way of explaining our reality, to provide reasonable answers on the existence of places like “heaven and hell” is very arrogant…...in my opinion.

Considering there is NO WAY a human could prove that an afterlife does or does not exist, you can NOT say that the afterlife is just a relic of a superstitious past.

And if a HELL and a HEAVEN do exist….those that didn’t follow God might find themselves in hell.

And if HEAVEN and HELL don’t exist…those that did follow God will die with the peace of “knowing” they are going to be with loved ones anyway. So they don’t really lose out…they might just die with a smile on their face…a smile caused by the thought of something that doesn’t exist, but a smile nonetheless.

When we die our programming gets uploaded to a super computer where we live for eternity in a virtual world.

Until someone forgets to pay the electric bill.

You can’t go to hell under any circumstances. When you die you will wink out like a light, your consciousness will be forever annihilated, and your body will putrefy. Don’t worry about it. Just try to love, to work, and to be ameliorative toward your comrades, all of whom are in the same boat.

@j0ey Yet another mindless repetition of Pascal’s Wager? See here for a small list of my problems with religion and why believing is in fact detrimental.

As for your statement that “there is NO WAY a human could prove that an afterlife does or does not exist, you can NOT say that the afterlife is just a relic of a superstitious past,” I find this terribly naive. People have known for tens of thousands of years that corpses decompose, and no one knowledgeable of philosophy of mind or neuroscience has taken dualism seriously for decades – so what exactly is it that can go to heaven or hell? The afterlife is a relic of a superstitious past, and it is quite amusing that people still take it seriously and actually live in fear of an eternal fate that will never come to fruition.

@escapedone7 ; YES!

“Going to Hell” only affects you while alive.

If you have that standard religious belief that includes Good and Evil.
If that additional stress is needed in your your life to keep you on a “good” path.
Great, what ever floats your boat.

Understand who God really is and you will understand there is no hell.

Unlikely, as someone doesn’t go to a concept. Is an unproven theory designed by smart clergy to fear monger the herds.

The reward and punishment thing that has been going on since the caveman. One thing I know, “if you are good guy or girl you will go to heaven”.

I think that if you really want to go to heaven, you should get a job at NASA and get a seat at the a space shuttle. If you are lucky, you will be given a space suit and knock yourself out floating in the upper atmosphere. Now, that’s heaven.

@j0ey Prison is the only real Hell I know of.

@Judi Great short answer and in perfect agreement
@mattbrowne @FireMadeFlesh per @j0ey arrogant, arrogant, arrogant and incredible unbelievable naivete
@escapedone7 YES…yes…yes
@Just_Justine and I am his wayward child as well. Very glad He searches for me

I believe ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ are states of mind, consciousness.

Not a geographical destination. lol

@plethora – I don’t understand your confusing comment.

Anyone who tells you they know the answer to this question is blowing smoke. If there IS a “hell,” only God can decide who goes there and who doesn’t.

There are so many kinds of Christianity. They tend to be lumped in common thought under either Catholic beliefs of Baptist ones. Not all Christians even agree- or believe- in hell.

I don’t believe in hell, so I would say no. So, you can tell her that another Christian you know said you aren’t going to hell- so you’re good. We’ll cancel each other out, yes? Then it will be between you and your own personal faith, as it should be.

Yes, of course. God condemns everyone except his girlfriends to Hell. The whole morality thing is just a sick joke; He loves to see the expression on a person’s face when he finds himself roasting in Hell after having striven his whole life to be a good person.

@mattbrowne Sorry, refer back to @j0ey comment to @FireMadeFlesh
She says it well. In summary, humans are dramatically limited. Our manmade scientific approach is useful for interpreting the world around us, but is of little use on topics can be neither proven nor disproven because they are not observable or repeatable. She said it, but I believe also that it is arrogant to dismiss that part of a world view that cannot be subjected to scientific proof. Some, if not most, things are not provable.

Oh yeah? Prove it.

I agree plethora.

I have had many ‘spiritual’ awakenings, experiences…can I ‘prove’ them to be true, real? No.

Were they true and real for me? Yes!

I’d say that I am a ‘believer’ in the mantra of ‘when the student is ready, the teacher appears.’ In other words, openings occur ONLY when one is in alignment with self and the totality, therefore scientifically speaking there can be no measurement of ones openings, hence impossible to prove.

Yet, lack of measurement does not make the experiences any less real.

I think it is like having a hidden microchip within, with the proper scanning it can be activated, for many it simply remains inert and undetected.

Yup. You have to be “born again” to get to Heaven, so it really doesn’t matter how many good things you may do.

@neverawake

@neverawake

Yep, born again…but not in the christian definition.

‘Born again’ in the sense of an expanded consciousness, not asking Jesus to ‘save’ me.

The kingdom of heaven is within. ;-)

You can’t go to somewhere that doesn’t exist.

@Rarebear Can you prove it doesn’t exist? No, you can’t. Nor can I prove it does exist. Which means it is a belief that is not subject to the scientific method. But you are quite certain. Perhaps you know everything there is to know. That would make you omnipotent, which is an attribute of God. Pleased to meet you Sir…:)

@plethora “I believe also that it is arrogant to dismiss that part of a world view that cannot be subjected to scientific proof. Some, if not most, things are not provable.”

How exactly do you determine which things are provable and which are not? I believe that everything is subject to the scientific method, and if a theory fails to come from the application of it then you can begin to consider the idea that it requires a different approach.

The idea of a soul can be tested in observable and repeatable ways. We know that a person’s personality can be completely changed by a CVA (stroke) or brain injury, so therefore at least part of you resides in your brain. Whether this is a copy or not, there must be some sort of communication between the matter of the brain and the ‘soul’. Now we have a testable, repeatable, observable phenomenon to look for. Your claims do not get an exemption because you label them ‘beliefs’ rather than ‘theories’.

@plethora Can you prove the Tooth Fairy doesn’t exist? How about Santa Claus? Oh, and how about the Great Pumpkin? And can you prove there isn’t an evil version of yourself in an alternative universe?

Silliness.

I don’t think brain & soul are even in the same box of fruit.

The brain is an organ that holds dominion over the body and it’s life processes.
The soul is formless, limitless, pure awareness.

Personality has nothing to do with soul.

‘You’, the true ‘you’ resides in pure consciousness.

The body dies, falls away, but consciousness ( pure awareness) is unmutable.

@Rarebear

Can you see the eagerness of your ego to be right?
To make another ‘wrong.’ lol

Silliness.

@Coloma It’s not a question of ego. It’s a question of evidence. I don’t believe in things that have no evidence of their existence. I’m sorry if that offends you.

No offense. I don’t offend easily.

Thats okay, you can believe in whatever you want.

I am just an advocate for accepting others thoughts, experiences, and opinions…is this not why we engage in situations such as these?

Why participate if you are so close minded?

@Coloma “The soul is formless, limitless, pure awareness.”

People who hallucinate see things differently because of biochemical activities in their brain, whether it is the effect of drugs or an imbalance from lengthy isolation. When you are drunk, your ability to make conscious decisions (such as whether to overtake that car of not) is impaired. If the conscious mind was an external, ethereal soul, wouldn’t it be immune to biochemical actions occurring in the brain?

@coloma “Why participate if I’m going to be close minded?” Excuse me? Who is close minded here? Are you not willing to accept the probability that Hell doesn’t exist at all? And I was merely answering the question. The question said, “Can I be a good person and go to hell (sic)?” The question presupposes that Hell actually exists. I was correcting the presupposition of the question.

Don’t feel bad—I don’t believe in String Theory either.

If you or anybody else is able to provide me with any shred of verifiable evidence that Hell (or String Theory) actually exist, I’ll be the first to say I was wrong.

@Coloma But do you call everyone close-minded who has a differing opinion from your own?
The word close-minded is rarely used properly. @Rarebear has the right to say that Hell doesn’t exist. That is his/her opinion. It hardly makes him/her close-minded.
To say someone is close-minded is a cop out and a way to avoid the probability that her opinion could be correct. You’re taking it as is they’re claiming it’s fact.
If you were to write that God and Hell existed, and someone called you close-minded for saying that, would you appreciate it? Probably not. Everyone is participating with their opinions. No one is necessarily claiming them as fact for the simple fact that there is no proof regarding either argument.

@Vunessuh Exactly so. I don’t say it’s a “fact” that Hell doesn’t exist. I’m saying there is no EVIDENCE of its existence. There is a small, infinitesimal chance that Hell exists, just as there is a smll infinitesimal chance that gravity will all of a sudden reverse—I’m laying odds that it won’t. and I’m a “his”

@Rarebear

Have you not read my above postings? Apparently not.

@FireMadeFlesh
It is immune you isunderstand me, words being the limited forms that they are.

@Vunessuh
I guess you have not read my postings either.

I am simply stating that I see no need for sarcasm, so why not participate with a modicum of maturity?

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to spot a grievance looking for a cause.

@Coloma You obviously didn’t read my posts either. I am not being sarcastic. I am very deliberately equating “Hell” with “Tooth Fairy” because they have equal validity.

@Coloma But did you read the post below his you can’t go somewhere that doesn’t exist posting where Plethora was being sarcastic? This is what @Rarebear was responding to. If you want everyone to participate in a mature manner, then be consistent on who you’re point your finger at.

@Coloma If I misunderstand you, do you care to explain yourself better?

@Vunessuh
Yes..I did read that post..I said exactly the same thing..that heaven and hell are states of consciousness not geographic destinations.

@FireMadeFlesh

I can share my experiences which have nothing to do with hallucinations, drugs, alcohol or brain misfirings. lol

I think the misunderstanding is that I am not talking about conscious MIND.
I am speaking of consciousness, creative intelligence.

Therefore while there is clearly a creative intelligence, it is no more likely to save you from a car crash than ‘God’ himself. lol

Although that can happen too.

All I can intelligently speak of are my own awakenings and experiences, many which confound the mind, because, after all, mind is limited, it cannot fathom much of which it tries.

@Coloma Okay, You’re right, I did miss that post. What do you mean by “states of consciousness.”

It cracks me up that so many people know exactly what God requires, and there are a dozen conflicting versions in this thread alone. Not a good communicator, God.

What is consciousness? How did we become self aware? I understand there are chemicals in our brains, and neurons fire electrical pulses in chain reactions of sorts. I have read about the dendrites and the axons and the serotonin and dopamine. I have seen the big squiggly pink mass in pictures. I have seen images showing electrical activity in different areas. But I can’t fathom how that translates to consciousness itself. It’s kind of fascinating.

Opening to whats already there.

It’s like an orgasm, you will know it if it happens. lol
Otherwise I could spend all night and still not be able to accurately convey what I mean.

Read/listen to Eckhart Tolle, Gangagi, Adyashanti, the Tao,....form your own conclusions through actual experience not mind made thought forms.

Thats where people get hung up…consciousness is NOT about the mind, the brain….it is what you ARE!

Pure awareness..the same stuff just arranged a little bit differently than a dog or a tree or a star.

Oh man…I’m not cut out to be a teacher…lol

If it isn’t about a brain, then could the Earth have a consciousness, or even the Universe? Could there be one big ethereal collective consciousness of sorts?

@escapedone7

Your on it girlfriend!

Very good! ( smiling big! )

You can’t be a good person and go to hell. You can’t be a bad person and go to hell. You can’t go to hell, period. Although, some people think of our lives as hell, and I don’t mean that in the sense that you are in horrible pain all the time. Rather, we live with problems, and pains and those pains and hurts are hell.

As others have said, the idea of being good and going to hell is a peculiarly Christian thing. It has to do with the idea that accepting Christ trumps the things you do, whether good or bad. If you accept Christ, then you can be forgiven for all the crap you did that hurt others, and, I think, you can even get into heaven.

For me, it is good works that matter. I’m not sure if good intentions matter, since to me, anyone should be able to learn from mistakes and be able to start doing good things. So if you continuously have good intentions but never do anything good, it doesn’t count towards being considered a good person by others.

Good intentions are important, but so are good works. If you do bad shit, then I hope you can be rehabilitated, but you won’t find me risking my life by being around you, until you have given some evidence you have had a change of heart.

Our lives, I believe, are spent turning little bits of hell into little bits of heaven.

The concept of forgiveness no matter what is an interesting strategy. It’s about non-judgementalism. Which is import, psychologically, for people to feel like they can be loved by others again. If this is not possible, then why turn around? So, having a figure like Christ that can magically take the burden of bad deeds away from you is useful. It helps a person turn around because they feel forgiven, and it helps other to accept them because they know that Christ has forgiven them.

But I don’t understand the logic of extending this to good people who have not accepted Christ. But hey, religions are weird.

@Coloma You still haven’t defined what you mean by hell and heaven being part of consciousness. Being conscious is the result of a functioning reticular activating system.

runs to google what reticular means ok this just got over my head

@Coloma I see what you mean. However, you’re claiming that it’s immature for @Rarebear to compare God to the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus when in reality, there are plenty of people who find this example valid. Just because you don’t agree with it, doesn’t automatically make it immature or irrelevant. I guess I just fail to see how he was being close-minded or immature.
I don’t care to debate about whether or not God exists. I really don’t care.
My issue is that people who say that Hell and God positively exist are rarely open to the fact that it doesn’t, yet they’re never accused of being close-minded. It’s always the ones who disbelieve. I don’t understand why that is. Why must we be accused of being close-minded because we simply don’t believe in something? I don’t believe that you necessarily have this mindset, but it came off that way and it reminded me of the 562398 people I come across who call me close-minded for being an Atheist. Does it have to do with the translation of each word? Believe = positive. Disbelieve = negative.
I don’t think that disbelieving is a type of negation, but a lot of people seem to have that reaction.

@Rarebear

Words are so inadequate..but…lets try this.

Heaven & Hell are states of mind. Not places..not a NOUN. lol

‘Awakening’ simply means understanding that you are the stuff of stars, the same material, arranged a bit differently that every other life form, ‘managed’ by universal consciousness.

The interconnectedness of everything.

‘Ego’ is the little ‘me’...the survival mechanism of ‘you’ that creates a seperateness from being conscious of the interconnectedness of all life.

When the mind is still, when the ego is dormant, not concerned with it’s petty survival, when you are able to simply LOOK, without thought, as a bird in a tree, and FEEL the connectedness of the totality. THAT is pure awareness…the stuff of ‘God’ the holy grail! lol

The bird does not think about it’s next move, it looks, and then…consciousness MOVES IT! ( Are you following? )

When the mind is completely still, the ego calmed, and recognized as the false self…when you can look at a bird or a tree or a cloud without thought interfering, labeling it to be something contrived, trying to name the UN-NAMABLE!
‘You’ pure awareness are at one with the totality!

You ARE ’‘God’ and ‘God’ is you!

It is the understanding that ‘just this’ is enough, that all is indeed, perfect, just as it is right now!

It is the absoloute knowing that ‘you’ do not HAVE a life, ‘you’ ARE life!

When these openings occur the universe can and does bring exactly what is needed in the moment…..as life cannot flourish in a bubble, the totality cannot manifest through a constricted consciousness.

When you are open and receptive, not resistant and constricted, ‘miracles’ happen!

Being ‘conscious’ ( aware, open ) to ‘Consciousness’ ( God, Universe, creative intelligence, spirit ) ALLOWS you to recognioze this interconnectedness and know that everything that happens cannot, not happen.

You are a conduit in the universe.

@Vunessuh

I define open minded as just that…the ability to at least entertain alternative views.

I think the Santa Claus and Great Pumpkin analogies were a bit silly…plenty of humans have had ‘spiritual’ experiences, I don’t think anyone has ever woken up to a tree full of presents that they didn’t, infact buy. lol

Okay…think we are back to a productive space. :-)

I define open minded as just that…the ability to at least entertain alternative views.

And yet you put forth an absolute certain knowledge that “Heaven & Hell are states of mind. Not places”.

You’ve got a whole bunch of believers upthread who are equally certain you’re wrong.

@Coloma I gotchu, but some people still find validity in that comparison whether you think it’s silly or not. People make that comparison to show it’s all fairytale-like to them and I’ve seen some do it to show that super-powers in all of these things just don’t exist.
I just find it silly myself when believers get offended when someone says that they don’t believe in God because his existence is unprovable. It’s not like I run off and cry in a corner and slit my wrists when I read from someone that they believe in him. The uproar I observe from some believers is just ridonkulous, but I have seen it on both sides so I’m not trying to make a generalization.

@Vunessuh
@jaytkay

I never said with absloute certainty, anything.

I made a statement that is true for me.
Semantics.

What I see most is the need for separation….the stuff wars are made of.

One fact, more humans have been killed in the name of Christianity than all other sources in the history of the world.

To be perfectly clear, I do not agree with or adhere to any ‘organized’ form of ‘religion.’

I aspire to the greatest teachers to walk the planet, be it Jesus, Buddha, or my cat, the zen master. lol

”I made a statement that is true for me.”
So did all of us.

I don’t care what you believe in. I respect it. My hang up was calling someone close-minded for expressing what they believe or disbelieve in.

@Vunessuh

I hear what you’re saying…my reasoning for that was not about ones beliefs….it was in relation to what I perceived as another calling the other close minded. Okay…this is getting far too confusing….point taken, mea culpa, ...whew! lololol

I see what you’re saying. For the record, I know for a fact you didn’t mean anything bad or harmful by it. No worries.

@py_sue Ask her to prove it.

@Coloma Okay, I’m back from dinner and rejoining the conversation.

What you wrote is very poetic and pretty. But personally, and I apologize in advance for my attitude, it’s I think it’s also metaphysical BS. Humans are animals, just like rabbits are animals. We just have bigger brains, can use tools, and can type stuff on the internet. That doesn’t make us any more or less special than any other living thing—we’re just a product of evolution, no more, no less.

@Rarebear
Yes, we are animals, not any more or less ‘special’, although I am sure you see yourself as more special than say a mouse. lol

Evoloution has nothing to do with consciousness, the force behind evoloution.

Thats okay.

There are many paths.

One mans trash is another mans treasure.

And so it is. ;-)

@Rarebear @FireMadeFlesh Have at it big guys!!! I regret the arrogance I see in some Christians and hate it no matter where I see it. But I do believe that the arrogant atheists compare equally to the arrogant Christians I have come across.
i do wish you both the best.

@escapedone7 HaHa…you’re pretty funny!! Love your little side comments.

@Coloma Actually, I don’t see myself as any more special than a mouse, honestly. I’m smarter than a mouse, but I’m not any more special.

Your statement “Evolution has nothing to do with consciousness, the force behind evolution” makes no sense to me. I don’t understand it. Are you saying that consciousness is the force behind evolution? If so, I’m ready to debate you point by point on this one. Also, evolution has everything to do with consciousness for without evolution there would be no consciousness.

@escapedone7 Wikipedia has a good an article as anything else on the reticular activating system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reticular_activating_system

@Rarebear

Not into debate..too mentally exhausting thank -you.
Just ego sparring.

‘Consciousness’ IS ‘God’ Universal mind….not human mind.
So without consciousness there would be no evolution.

If your interested in understanding more of what I have so inadequately attempted to express, listen to Eckhart Tolles ’ A New Earth’ thats a good starting point.

G’ night…....

@Coloma
Okay ego sparring partner,

Consciousness IS a function of the reticular activating system, and the basal ganglia, with a few other bits thrown in. It’s not’ God.

Evolution is a natural process that needs six steps:
1) Evolution
2) Gradulaism
3) Speciation
4) Common ancestry
5) Natural Sselection
6) Nonselective mechanisms of evolutionary change.
(taken from Jerry Coyne Why Evolution is True published 2010)

I can expand in detail on each one of those points. But nowhere in there is there a requirement of consciousness. Bacteria evolve probably quicker than any living organism, yet they do not experiences consciousness.

The idea of a universal mind is more metaphysical religious nonsense. Until you can prove that such a universal mind actually exists, I’ll live in my own little world of reality.

And…g’nit to you too! I“m going to go turn off my reticular activating system now.

@Rarebear

Never said human consciousness ( as in the reticular activating system ) was God.

Only that Universal consciousness is something I do believe is a distinct possibility.

An entity that predates evoloution and without such, creative design would not have been possible.

Consciousness ( source ) expressing itself through all things.

Something that needs to be experienced, not theories from a textbook.

For such a blowhard science guy the most simplistic communications seem to escape your reticulated reticular navigations. lol

You have effectively created a closed system for furthur discussion with your proclaimations of ‘nonsense’

So be it.

Oh..P.S.

I disagree about the bacteria..it is one dimensional blowhards that evolve the most quickly of any organism and yet do not experience consciousness. lolol

@Coloma Ah so now you’re resorting to insults and a straw man argument when reasoned debate cannot suffice. I see how it goes with you. Very well then, enjoy.

@Rarebear Reasoned debate is not worthy of a closed system of idiocy.You need to ask your own question and stop trolling here.

@Coloma If you are not talking about the conscious mind, I am not sure we are even in the same discussion here. We started by talking about the soul, which by the Christian definition is unique to each person. Now you are talking about a collective consciousness for all entities (if I understand correctly?), even though we cannot perceive their minds. I am all for feeling connected with the environment, but I think it is a stretch to say that we (we being the self, the conscious mind) survive our deaths.

According to the Reverend Al Bundy, if you’re a good person you don’t have to go to hell, but you’re allowed to go there if you want to want to watch porn with Satan and laugh at your wife. ;-p

@plethora You’re calling me a troll? @Coloma called me a “blowhard science guy” whose “most simplistic communication has escaped (me)” then s/he called me a “one dimensional blowhard” to finish off the post. Excuse me, but who is the troll?

@Coloma said that “without consciousness there would be no evolution”. I countered that without evolution there would be no consciousness. @Coloma Then called me a blowhard. Then I pointed out that @Coloma was resorting to insults. And then @plethora called me a troll.

@plethora If you want to remain in your little cocoon of self-affirmed beliefs, then that is fine by me. However you will soon learn that almost no assertion goes unchecked on Fluther, whether true, false, or up for debate. You simply cannot call @Rarebear and myself arrogant, then resort to ad hominem assertions of trolling when we attempt to reason with you. I for one am not interested in such accusations, so if you decide to discuss these things openly and intelligently, you’ll know where to find me.

I am a person that always loves to learn about other people and what they believe, think and feel. I would love to hear open discussions between people of a myriad of faiths and backgrounds: Hindu, Muslim, A Native American who might follow an ancient tribal faith, Wiccan, you name it. I respect people who search for the “what more is there to this world beyond myself” kind of spiritual thinking. I see it as a part of who they are, their culture, background, a product of the free choice and thinking they should be afforded. I think there is probably something I could learn from everybody, and if nothing more I can take delight in the diversity of humanity on a cultural level.

That being said, I do believe there is a very strong outspoken atheist group here. What they think and believe matters too, that is also something I respect about individuality. Obviously we have some scientific, literal minded prove-it-to me people. Great. Many people in my family think that way and I love them to death. However, I’m being gentle here… I don’t feel like this community is very open to accepting people on a different path. Just as an observer, I think a lot of times any mention of a person’s faith at all results in something hostile.

Random example, a little white camel avatar couldn’t go to a funeral because he/ she (idk) was concerned about going into another church or something and people ripped the person apart. If I said I couldn’t attend a funeral because of a toothache, my cat was puking and needed to go to the vet, or my hair fell out after I dyed it, or even closer to the truth seeing dead bodies in open caskets triggers my PTSD sometimes, I don’t think I would have been put through a anti-faith of any kind food processor. People might have helped me understand other ways to make up for it, like sending flowers, a casserole, visiting the family afterward and comforting them and helping them during the hardest part of the grieving process (which is after the funeral).

As a person that likes to hear what other people believe, and a person who sometimes feels a little lost and searching for something to believe in, I frequently become disappointed in the open hostility.

With that being said, I well relegate most of my discussions on these types of topics with people in PM. There is a lack of respect towards other people on a different path in life. It is real. This is not the only place I see it I suppose the inability to accept other people of different beliefs is behind a lot of things that have been going on in the world for a very long time. It would be nice if, at least here, we could find a way to grow beyond that.

This is my take. I know I’m all verbage. This person asked a spiritual question about good people going to hell. This , to me, would be some ideal answers.

“I am athiest. I don’t believe in heaven or hell.”
“I am Mormon. I believe God will let good people in heaven.”
“I am a jehovas Witness. I believe only a chosen few will remain on Earth but the rest will just die, not go to hell.”
“I am a hindu, and I believe… (Idk) I“m making this stuff up because nobody ever gives people a chance to tell me what they believe anymore.”

Instead if someone states what they believe, someone attacks them “Prove to me this karma shit exists. Prove to me in reincarnation. How primitive.”

The insults, grilling and lack of acceptance of different ideas, began before this thread even started, and before many other threads ever started.

It’s a problem that has led to wars, genocide, political turmoil and even problems in or own schools and neighborhoods.

Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with us.

Lecture over. I love you children. Class dismissed.

@Rarebear

And how is it that ‘metaphysical BS’ & ‘nonsense’ are abdicated from your ideas of ‘insult’?

Like attracts like…you project power over, a determination to be ‘right’ and exude a huge aura of bullish energy.

You get what you give.

Clearly you are the ‘type’ that is highly identified with being right and pounding another until that acknowledgement is received.

Can you spell ‘bully?’

@escapedone Very well said…I’m opting out for peace! lolol

I am probably just talking out of my ass. I do that too much. My reticular ganglions aren’t gangling this morning. do reticular ganglions gangle? nevermind

@escapedone7

I think you exhibit an amazing openess, great mediation skills and a vast amount of tact, grace, diplomacy and sensitivity.

Not traits of anything that would come out of ones ass! lolololol

I see a lot of wisdom, maturity and well articulated thought!

Okay…time to release the Barracudas back to their feeding frenzy! lololol

This is mom. Just agree to disagree and stop the bickering alright?

@plethora, @Coloma, @Rarebear – We should not make the mistake to think that only physical entities exist. There is plenty of evidence for physical entities, sure. But there is also evidence for abstract concepts. I believe in democracy for example. It does exist as an abstract concept. And I also believe in it. I don’t believe in totalitarianism. I don’t believe in hell. Does totalitarianism exist as a concept? Yes, it does. Does hell exist as a concept? Yes, it does. Is hell a large room somewhere above Earth’s stratosphere full of blast-furnaces powered by charcoal to be ignited by God? No, of course not. Oh, and Santa Claus does exist. He’s a historical person i.e. a physical entity. His attitude was transferred into an abstract concept: secret gift-giving. Do I believe in it? Yes. It’s a wonderful idea.

@mattbrowne

I can see you sharing this with Rarebear, but I think plethora & I said the exact same thing.

I stated right off that I did not think of heaven & hell as places, but do think they can be states of mind.

Just because something is physically unseen, unexperienced, cannot be measured, cataloged, proven, does not mean it doesn’t exist.

Your words are wise but best directed @Rarebear the one that needs to hear them the most.

@Coloma – I noticed the heated debate above and you and @plethora were involved as well. Therefore I included your name. I realize that you and I have similar thoughts :-)

Peace bro! :-)

@Coloma Please look up the definition of ad hominem attack. I’ll refresh your memory. An ad hominem attack is when you attack the person and not the idea. I said the idea of what you said “metaphysical BS” and “nonsense”. I didn’t say YOU were full of BS and nonsense. If I did, that would be an ad hominem attack. Personally, I don’t think that you’re full of BS, but I think the idea is. You obviously couldn’t debate the idea and didn’t like what I had to say, so you attacked me as a person. You called me a “blowhard” and @plethora called me a “troll”. Those are examples of of an ad hominem attacks. Again, you don’t like what I have to say so you are calling me names.

@Rarebear Granted on the Santa Claus bit. But he doesn’t wear a red suit and ride around on reindeer. I do challenge you to find a tooth fairy, though.

@Coloma and @mattbrowne I have no problem if you want to define hell as a state of mind. I’ve certainly felt “like hell” sometimes. Where I was debating you, @Coloma (before you started calling me names) was not that concept, but when you wrote this:

“Evoloution (sic) has nothing to do with consciousness, the force behind evoloution. (sic).”

and
“So without consciousness there would be no evolution.”

The first statement I don’t understand. The second one is untrue. I tried to explain some basic concepts of evolution to you, but that’s when you called me a blowhard.

@Rarebear

Well..you exude blowhard energy, what can I say…I could feel your fist thumping the table, metaphorically speaking of course.

Okay…this is the last of it…to be as clear as I possibly can be.

The 1st statement that you do not understand…when I use the word ‘consciousness’ I intend it to be assimilated as ‘God.’ Life force, creative intelligence..et al.

I believe that something cannot come out of nothing, therefore I beleive there is a creative intelligent design behind the evoloution of the universe.

The second statement, now with your new understanding, is true…for me.
Without ‘consciousness’ ( creatvie intelligent design ) there would be no universe.

I have no quarrel with your evolutionary facts…they all fall into place, no dispute there.

‘Soul’ is not mind…so when I speak of ‘soul’ ( part of ‘God’ or universal consciousness) I mean that energy ( soul ) does not evaporate but is transformed, therefore the energy of soul, will reintegrate after death and return to the collective of the universe.
( Some want to call this heaven or hell )

No harm, no foul. Perhaps we will meet again in a more neutral space, like a question on how to grow your own Banana tree. lolol

Peace.

@Coloma Okay, so you admit the ad hominem attack. Didn’t exactly apologize, but that’s okay.

I disagree with pretty much everything you wrote in the above statement. I’ll point out where I disagree. If you want to continue to debate it I’ll be happy to. Otherwise we’ll leave it.

”‘consciousness’ I intend it to be assimilated as ‘God.’ Life force, creative intelligence..et al.’

No. Consciousness is simply the activity of an awake brain. The brain is a product of evolutionary forces.

“I believe that something cannot come out of nothing, therefore I beleive there is a creative intelligent design behind the evoloution (sic) of the universe.”

No. Life can be entirely explained by evolution. There is no intelligent designer necessary.

“I have no quarrel with your evolutionary facts…they all fall into place, no dispute there.”

Well, you obviously do have a quarrel since you just told me that you believe in intelligent design. If you understood evolution you would understand that intelligent design is creationism revisited and bad science.

“Without ‘consciousness’ ( creatvie intelligent design ) there would be no universe.”

Wrong again. The universe is entirely a product of physics. No intelligent designer needed.

”‘Soul’ is not mind…so when I speak of ‘soul’ ( part of ‘God’ or universal consciousness) I mean that energy ( soul ) does not evaporate but is transformed, therefore the energy of soul, will reintegrate after death and return to the collective of the universe.”

Nope. No evidence of this either. All evidence points to when we die, we die. Sorry.

@Rarebear

The term ‘consciousness’ ( pure awareness ) is used in many other philosophies to signify source. If you are not familiar with that particular term outside of your own use and meaning….well….doesn’t change the meaning I intend it as.

The Universe is a product of physics…yep, so?

And there is no space for something behind this?

Who says?

I recently attended an astronomy exhibition and every ‘scientist,’ astronomer, said the same thing…that you can only go just so far back, and it comes to a point where everyone says ’ I don’t know.’

I never said when we die, we don’t die.

I said my definition of ‘soul’ is the animated energy ( life force ) and that energy never dies. It is transmuted into another form of energy.

Our bodies die, our energy is passed on.

I am not interested in evidence, I am not interested in your determinations of right or wrong.

I am interested in possibilities, ideas, philosophies, experiences, creative sharings.

You are merely interested in pounding your evidence over others heads.

No need to be sorry…you can be dead if you want to. lol

Dead is when you think you have all the answers and lose curiosity for the unknown.

If you think you know it all you might as well be really dead now. hahaha

Cheers to the unknown!

I’ll start with your statement: “I recently attended an astronomy exhibition and every ‘scientist,’ astronomer, said the same thing…that you can only go just so far back, and it comes to a point where everyone says ’ I don’t know.’”

I agree with this statement. And it’s why cosmologists have jobs. 100 years ago, we didn’t know the truths about gravity, and were just scratching the surface on atomic theory. I never said we knew everything.

“I never said when we die, we don’t die.”
Yes you did. You said, “therefore the energy of soul, will reintegrate after death and return to the collective of the universe.” I maintain there is no soul, and when we die, our consciousness (evolutionary developed, by the way), dies with us. If you want to say that our physical atoms get reintegrated into the universe, that’s fine. I’d agree with that.

“I said my definition of ‘soul’ is the animated energy ( life force ) and that energy never dies. It is transmuted into another form of energy.’
Fair enough. I don’t believe in a soul. But like I said above, if you want to say that that carbon that is in our bodies gets recycled for future life, I’m good with that.

“I am interested in possibilities, ideas, philosophies, experiences, creative sharings.’
I’m okay with this. That’s fine.

“You are merely interested in pounding your evidence over others heads.’
Actually, to be precise, I haven’t presented any evidence. I have merely stated my point of view. If you would actually like me to present evidence, I’d be happy to, but it’s out of the scope of this thread. And I’m not pounding anything over anybody. People are free to completely and utterly ignore what I have to say. And, at the risk of sounding arrogant, the fact that I’m giving you the time of day is actually a complement. If I find someone on the internet who I think is completely wacky, I generally ignore them. I’m not ignoring you, so that should tell you that I’m actually respecting your opinion. I merely disagree with it—at times quite strongly.

“No need to be sorry…you can be dead if you want to. lol”
I certainly will be, one day.

“Dead is when you think you have all the answers and lose curiosity for the unknown.
If you think you know it all you might as well be really dead now. hahaha
Cheers to the unknown!”

Well, that’s a nice poetic point that I’ll actually agree with.

@Rarebear lololol

Well..I guess we’ve done alright then…and thanks, I appriciate the ‘wacky’ label….I take that as a compliment!.
I am a poet, not a scientist, and therefore I am naturally drawn to the mysterious and mystical.

Of course your not ignoring me….then you’d be talking to yourself as it seems everyone else has abandoned this sinking ship. hahahahahaha

Alrighty…we’ve made it to shore, a bit rocky but the storm has passed….you can sail your ship of fools in one direction and I will sail mine in another. lololol

Bon Voyage !

@Coloma Actually, I implied you weren’t wacky. I said I ignore the wacky people.

And I’m a scientist, not a poet. Touche. You write well.

@Rarebear

It’s those damn implications…..like exploding beakers! lol

Thanks..and you argue well. lolololol

@Coloma Actually, I did explode a beaker once. In chemistry lab in college, I heated a beaker of alcohol over a bunsen burner and not a hot plate. It exploded and ruined everybody’s experiment around me. I’ve never seen a teacher so pissed.

Are you permanently disfigured or just slightly scarred?Lol
Okay…going waaaay out on a limb here ( notice your interest in astronomy)....can you recommend a good telescope for a novice?

I am at about 2500 ft, great night sky vision.

@Coloma I’ll talk about this in a PM as it’s WAY off topic.

@Rarebear – Yes, of course, without consciousness there would still be evolution. Consciousness is about the ability to observe and understand the universe and evolution.

@mattbrowne An awake bunny rabbit is conscious but can’t understand the universe and evolution. If your statement is rephrased, “Consciousness allows human beings to observe and understand the universe and evolution” then I’d agree.

@escapedone7 Your long answer above is absolutely excellent, both in spirit and in content. I would agree that we have a virulent collection of atheists on Fluther. None of us are going to “prove” anything in the metaphysical arena. It is enough to know from an atheist that he is one, and that pretty well opts him out of this discussion. If he does not believe there is a God, then it contributes nothing to argue, against someone who does believe there is a God.

I, for one, will opt myself out of such discussion, and will share my beliefs and hopefully have an opportunity to add substance to them, as others will share theirs.;.

@plethora How can you opt out of a discussion when you just added to the discussion?

It’s ridiculous to think that an atheist will eschew a question about God or Heaven or Hell just because s/he is an atheist. The original question asks about a Hell. I’m stating my point of view about Hell. I should no more be “opted out” of this discussion than you should be.

@Rarebear – I also meant self-awareness. Let your awake bunny rabbit do the

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test

@mattbrowne Then I agree with you. Although according to the article, many animals do pass the mirror test.

@Rarebear I do agree with you because atheists have a religion too….the religion of atheism, with its own theology.

@plethora Nope. Atheism is the absence of a belief in God. With or without religion.

@Rarebear Ahhh….guess we’ll duel over words. The absence of a belief in God IS a position on God….that he does not exist.

@plethora Well, okay. Now we’re talking about the difference between hard atheism and soft atheist. I will agree that hard atheists believe that God doesn’t exist. Soft atheists, of which I am one, see no evidence for God and therefore don’t believe in God (like my tooth fairy argument above—I don’t believe in the tooth fairy because I’ve seen no evidence of her existence). If someone were to show me verifiable evidence that God existed, then I’d believe in God. I’m just empiric.

And unlike many atheist friends of mine, I actually have no issue with theists. People are free to believe what they want as far as I am concerned. It’s when a theist (or anybody else who believes in anything supernatural or magical) puts something forth as a fact, I will take issue. Like this question, for instance. The original question asks if the person can go to Hell if they’re a good person. Since I see no evidence that Hell actually exists as a real place, so I take issue with it. I actually have no problem with @Coloma‘s assertion that a personal hell can exist within oneself—but she and I came to an agreement on that awhile ago.

And interestingly enough, even if I were a theist in my own religion (Judaism) I’d still not believe in Hell, since Hell isn’t a Jewish concept.

@plethora “I do agree with you because atheists have a religion too….the religion of atheism, with its own theology.”

Atheism is not a religion. You cannot worship ‘lack of gods’. You cannot stand in awe of ‘lack of gods’, or fear punishment from ‘lack of gods’. Atheism is the rejection of religious ideas, but in and of itself it offers no replacement. Atheists such as myself do have philosophies that take the place of religion, but they are not religious because they do not include the key features of religion – ritual, worship, external ethereal experiences, and faith.

Nor do any two atheists necessarily share the same philosophies. There is no dogma, and no commonality among atheists except for a lack of belief.

@plethora atheism is as much a belief about god as bald is a hair colour.

@augustlan Didnt say atheism was an organized religion. It’s not. I do maintain that any position on God, including the belief that He does not exist is a theological position and requires some kind of faith to believe it. If it cannot be proven, then it must be accepted on faith. Not that I expect atheists to agree with me. (But, it is fun to annoy them….:)

@Thammuz Au contraire

@plethora “Atheists have a religion too….the religion of atheism, with its own theology.”

Of course atheism isn’t an organised religion, that is readily obvious. I contend that it is not a religion at all though. Atheism is hardly a theological position, as we see theology as an exercise in futility. It doesn’t take faith to ‘believe’ atheism, because it is not a belief. It is like asking what the colour of darkness is.

@plethora You wrote: “If it cannot be proven, then it must be accepted on faith.” You are correct in that you can’t prove a negative. But you are incorrect that because I cannot prove a negative then I have to have faith that the non-existence of the negative.

Again, the Tooth Fairy. It’s not that I have faith in the non-existence of the Tooth Fairy. I just see no evidence of the Tooth Fairy’s existence. If I am presented evidence that the Tooth Fairy exists, then I will believe in the Tooth Fairy.

Substitute the word “God” for the word “Tooth Fairy” and that states my position.

And @FireMadeFlesh you are incorrect in your assumption that all Atheists are not religious. I am an atheist, and I am an observant Jew.

@Rarebear @FireMadeFlesh I do love to get you guys going….:)

@plethora Fair enough. I’ll know next time that you’re just trying to provoke a response.

@Rarebear I did not say atheists are not religious, I said that atheism is not a religion and rejects many religious ideas. You are an atheist and religious as separate traits.

This was a great question but I am stopping following because it got so far off topic :-(

@Judi Your answer at the very beginning really said all that needed to be said..:)

@FireMadeFlesh Fair enough. This was the statement that you wrote that I was responding to and don’t agree with: “Atheism is the rejection of religious ideas…”

@Rarebear In hindsight I don’t agree with my statement either, since some religious ideas are valuable.

I’m curious though, in what ways are you Jewish? I’m not sure how or why an atheist would participate in Jewish rituals and festivals.

@FireMadeFlesh It’s a good question. Simply put, I participate in them because I enjoy them. I realize, though, that that’s not a satisfactory answer. But believe it or not, it’s not necessary to be a theist and to be a Jew. There is a famous quote attributed to Rabbi Hillel, who said, “What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow; that is the whole Law: all the rest is interpretation.” That’s how I think.

There is a long history of atheist Jews. Here is a wikipedia article on it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheist_Jews

And here is a really good Point of Inquiry podcast with an interview with an Orthodox Atheist Jew. I don’t share all his points of view, but it’s a good start.

You have to understand something about fundamental or conservative “christians”. They believe what they want to believe, its easy to be an a—h—e to other people, be racist, bigots, hate because its a conveiniant belief system for themselves, because good works or being decent does not get you into heaven, but belief in Jesus as your savior does so they can continue to be hateful, narrow-minded and make excuses for their bad behavior because “we all fall short of the glory of god” so by just “believing” rather than make the actual effort of trying to be a “good person” they can do whatever and justify it, even criticizing decent people who aren’t saved because Jesus already did the dirty work for them.

That’s why they frequently attack people with my spiritual beliefs which emphasize “what you sow you reap” and taking responsibilty for your own actions and actually being held accountable for all the wrong doings to other people, that’s why they say reincarnation and karma is of the “devil”. There is overwhelming evidence that the KJB has been altered by man over the years to fit their own religious dogma, this is coming from many biblical scholars and experts themselves. Unfortunately, while alive we will never know what the original bible texts were.

I don’t know why athiests are posting comments on here as well, the question was “do you have to accept jesus as your savior to get into heaven?”, the question wasn’t whether or not god exists, those comments would be for another posts, i try to respect other peoples beliefs whether or not i agree with them until they attack me, so with these athiests making posts on this topic if you can’t respect other peoples beliefs than i will start showing you the same disrespect back.

@Jabe73 I commented on this question because I wanted to.

@Jabe73 Having a different opinion doesn’t make it irrelevant.

@Jabe73 The question wasn’t whether or not god exists

No, indeed it wasn’t. But it needed an answer to that question in order to have an answer itself. It also needed a shitload of related answers before it even could begin to make sense as a question, but even taking it as an hypothetical it still NEEDED that answer before it could be expanded upon.

Also i’d like to add something: if you can’t respect other peoples beliefs than i will start showing you the same disrespect back

I’d like to know why am i supposed to respect a belief that not only is, precisely, only a belief, (aka not supported by anything concrete), but it is, by its very nature disrespectful towards those who don’t share it.

Mind you, it’s not that i give a rat’s ass about what’s in the bible, or that i take it into consideration in the slightest as my day to day life goes on, but it does say that atheists are fools and that they deserve to be punished for their not agreeing with christians. And the same goes for memebers of other religions.

So why should i pay respect to a set of beliefs that includes the fact that i’m an unintelligent and bad person by default? It clearly doesn’t show me any goddamned respect!

To Thammuz, FireMadeFlesh and Rearbearer the reason why i believe in an afterlife isn’t because of what i’ve been preached to about but my own personal experiences from people close to me who died, even though i can never prove it to you i know what i experienced and i’m not getting into what happened because you would find a way to debunk it anyway so i’m not going there.

I have great respect for your beliefs but not everyone who believes in the afterlife is a narrow-minded religious bigot either. I have noticed whenever Anyone brings up any subject relating to any possibilty of any god or afterlife you have to go out of your way to argue against them so in a sense that puts yous on the same level as the fundamentalist bible thumpers, people who believe in god have a right to their opinions and people who don’t have a right to theirs, i don’t even try to argue against the athiest threads, i put my reasons why i believe what i believe and thats the end of it, i’m not on every athiest thread saying “your wrong”! or “show me proof”! You are putting everyone that believes in god or even the possibilty in the same bracket, and that’s not fair, i frankly don’t even give a fuck whether someone believes in god or not because i believe the type of person you are in life is the only thing that matters anyway. What, you athiests think yous are the only ones attacked by the religious fanatics, there’s a big difference between religious people and spiritual people.

@Jabe73 “i’m [sic] not getting into what happened because you would find a way to debunk it anyway so i’m [sic] not going there.”
If there were an alternate explanation that fit the facts better than your ideas, would you be interested? Why don’t you want to hear our view of the matter?

“not everyone who believes in the afterlife is a narrow-minded religious bigot”
That is true, I know people who believe in an afterlife without being religious at all. However, as I said above I retain the right to disagree with the point of view expressed, and to express my disagreement.

“I don’t even try to argue against the athiest [sic] threads”
Why not? That is what Fluther is all about – dialogue between people with differing opinions and ideas.

“You are putting everyone that believes in god or even the possibilty [sic] in the same bracket, and that’s not fair”
That is not my intent. I realise there are differing views, but I cannot address the view of an individual until I know what their unique ideas are.

“i [sic] believe the type of person you are in life is the only thing that matters anyway.”
Beliefs lead to actions, and impact character. People who strap bombs to themselves and blow up innocent people do so because they believe in the lies of their leaders. People who vote the way their pastor wants them to do so because they believe what their pastor says. People act on their beliefs all the time, and if those beliefs are false they should be corrected. Please do not interpret this as thinking I cannot be wrong.

“you athiests think yous [sic] are the only ones attacked by the religious fanatics”
I do not have a victim mentality, only a desire to share my understanding with others.

What really REALLY bugs me about people on the internet is not their beliefs, but the fact that they’re too lazy to capitalize their letters. Just a pet peeve. C’mon, it takes one extra key stroke.

Okay, here goes
@Jabe73 wrote
“i’m not getting into what happened because you would find a way to debunk it anyway so i’m not going there.”
Fair enough. You’re mind’s made up. I won’t confuse you with the facts.

“I have great respect for your beliefs but not everyone who believes in the afterlife is a narrow-minded religious bigot either.”
Excuse me, please show me where I called you “narrow minded” or “bigot”.

“Also i’d like to add something: if you can’t respect other peoples beliefs than i will start showing you the same disrespect back”
It’s hard to take me seriously when you’re referring yourself to the first person singular with a small letter “i”. But go ahead, show me disrespect, I don’t mind.

“I have noticed whenever Anyone brings up any subject relating to any possibilty of any god or afterlife you have to go out of your way to argue against them”
Of course. Last I checked this was a free online forum open to discussion to all. If you want a forum where nobody will disagree with you, I’m sure there are a number of theistic forums.

“i don’t even try to argue against the athiest threads”
Except, of course, when you’re arguing with atheists.

“i put my reasons why i believe what i believe and thats the end of it, i’m not on every athiest thread saying “your wrong”! or “show me proof”! You are putting everyone that believes in god or even the possibilty in the same bracket, and that’s not fair, i”
Not fair? You want fair? Since when has the internet been “fair”? What you want is somewhere where you can put forward your beliefs without having your belief system challenged. That’s never going to happen here. If you don’t like it, go somewhere else.

“i frankly don’t even give a fuck whether someone believes in god or not because i believe the type of person you are in life is the only thing that matters anyway. ”
Now we can COMPLETELY agree on something. That’s the essence of humanism. Well done!

“What, you athiests think yous are the only ones attacked by the religious fanatics.”
I’m assuming by “yous” you mean “your ideas”. I never feel attacked by religious fanatics, as I’m totally comfortable with my knowledge of how the world really is. It is I who generally do the attacking. I make it one of my online mission in life to stamp out ignorance where I see it.

Well whether you know it or it or want to believe or not god loves you anyway and i’m comfortable with my knowledgde from what i experienced, like i said it don’t matter what you believe, it all comes down to your intentions and yes it is very pathetic to only want to do good because you don’t want to go to hell, YOU HAVE TO WANT TO DO GOOD BECAUSE YOU REALLY WANT TO, so it is completely irrevelvant what your religious beliefs are. I don’t ignore scientific facts either in place of man-made biblical quotes.

I am aware of some mistakes i made in my capitalization when i look back on my posts, sorry, i get ahead of myself and type to fast to catch it sometimes but i made my point. Well god bless you anyway, whether you want to hear it or not.

@Jabe73 Well, believe it or not, I agree with most of your last post. If you take out God (capitalized) and Hell (capitalized), and go to the meat of what you were saying, “You have to want to do good because you really want to,” that’s the essence of humanism. And since I’m a humanist, I agree with that.

@Jabe73 I have great respect for your beliefs but not everyone who believes in the afterlife is a narrow-minded religious bigot either.

Never said that. But i have to point out that we’re not talking about “an afterlife” here, we’re talking about the christian idea of salvation and hell.

I have noticed whenever Anyone brings up any subject relating to any possibilty of any god or afterlife you have to go out of your way to argue against them

I don’t “have to” i can quit anytime i want /joke

Seriously though. I come here to have discussions, are you surprised i pick the ones i know something about? I already stated this in the past (not on here though so i’ll repeat it): I’m italian, i don’t live in the US so many cultural elements are too foreign for e to argue about them, the same goes for american politics and these elements aside what is there to discuss if we bar philosophy and religion?

so in a sense that puts yous on the same level as the fundamentalist bible thumpers

I disagree. I don’t go around pestering people at random, i go to places where people come to be pestered. If you put something up for debate you’re asking my opinion and i will give it to you. Bible thumpers give you their opinion wether you want to them or not.

people who believe in god have a right to their opinions and people who don’t have a right to theirs

Doesn’t mean that these opinions are equally reasonable, valid, believable or correct. And i’m not pointing a gun at their heads telling them to disbelief if they want to live. I’m systematically pointing out holes in their beliefs but that doesn’t force them to abandon them, it just makes it really hard for them to cling to them which, frankly, is just their problem.

i don’t even try to argue against the athiest threads, i put my reasons why i believe what i believe and thats the end of it, i’m not on every athiest thread saying “your wrong”! or “show me proof”!

And that’s your choice. I personally enjoy debating so i will pester every single motherfucker that disagree with me. If this means i’ll look like an asshole then so be it.

You are putting everyone that believes in god or even the possibilty in the same bracket, and that’s not fair

No i’m not. I’m putting people who believe in a personal god in one bracket, people who believe in an impersonal god in another and those who believe in the possibility in the “reasonable people” cathegory. No possiblity should be barred beforehand, because that’s an irrational prejudice. However no possibility should be taken for granted without evidence either.

i frankly don’t even give a fuck whether someone believes in god or not because i believe the type of person you are in life is the only thing that matters anyway.

‘k, so? As a matter of fact i do too, and i believe that your beliefs determine your actions and your actions determine the kind of person you are. Therefore beliefs matter.

What, you athiests think yous are the only ones attacked by the religious fanatics, there’s a big difference between religious people and spiritual people.

First ad foremost, and i don’t know why i didn’t point this out earlier, you can’t herd cats. Atheists aren’t a group, and probably never will be. We rarely agree on everything and ofthen we agree on very little, so “we atheists” aren’t doing shit. Each of us speaks for him/herself.

Secondly From MY point of view there really is no difference from a rational point of view between religious people, spiritual people, people who believe in santa claus, the loch ness monster, the tooth fairy, horoscopes, homeopathy and so on. There are differences in the beliefs but if you believe something without evidence this puts your starting point on the same level. From that point what you do determines wether i like you or not.

Still no irrational belief is more dignified than another, they may be different, and some better from a human standpoint (see hindus vs fundamentalist muslims) but all in all from a rational standpoint they’re all the same.

Also a side note:

i’m not getting into what happened because you would find a way to debunk it anyway so i’m not going there.

What’s wrong with something being debunked? Personally i’d only be happy if somebody proved me why i was wrong on something, it would give me the opportunity to better understand reality.

I have an interesting story read about. Read about James Leininger, just google his name or watch his parents story on youtube. I don’t know if any of you already seen his story or not but explain to me how this little boy knew everything he knew, i’m not getting into the story here, look at it for yourselves.

This story has nothing to do with the reasons for my beliefs but I think it makes an interesting story for something that can’t be explained by many skeptics.

@Jabe73 http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html

@Jabe73 there you have it. @Rarebear just gave you an explaination.

Besides, even assuming i couldn’t give you a good explaination for this, how is this proof of anything?

What, the fact that this kid says he remembers actions he didn’t actually experience all of a sudden proves the afterlife exist?

Do you have the faintest idea how much bullshit i used to tell my parents when i was little?

@Thammuz Exactly. As Carl Sagan said, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof”. Or something like that.

No. There is no hell and and if there were, no decent god would send good people there.

@lillycoyote Good. Now that we’ve extablished the obvious we can speculate on wether the abrahamic god is a decent god.

@Thammuz I personally believe the “Abrahamic God” was a fictional character who exists/existed in a particular literary narrative. If you want to analyze whether or not he is or was a “decent god” in that particular context I’m game.

@lillycoyote i think we already did that, sorry you missed it…

@lillycoyote I miss a lot of things, very slow on the uptake I am.