Is this manipulation?

Something is off – obviously, if she knows your family situation, she knows her terms are hard to accomplish – so she’s getting her cake and eating it too since it looks like she’s compromising (and probably making herself feel better) but her solution isn’t one. I don’t like the sound of this at all.

However this situation has come about, you must honour your feelings and it sounds like you would really like a child…so you need to put that first…

I don’t think its manipulation, but it certainly sounds like a problem. I’m only 21 and I’ve never been married, but I would consider this grounds for a decision of great magnitude. It seems like you’re going to be stuck between staying with your bread-winning baby-avoiding wife or finding a new partner to have children with.

Hopefully you can settle somewhere in the middle.

How exactly do you feel she manipulated you?

Is your wife the controller in your family? if not, based on you question, it appears so. why are you two just now discussing having a family? its a little late in life for both of you. sounds like your wife has all the cards in her corner and now she is stacking the deck before your next game. why are you worrying about finances, now? you should have planned for this years ago. lets face it, she has you over a barrel and she knows it.

This is not manipulation, this is controlling. (i think you know this).

she’s not manipulating you- I had kids at exactly that age and kept on being a dr. and I had a nervous breakdown. I wish more than anything I had quit working when my kids were little. Keep on talking, she’s not crazy or stupid, you’ll both have to create a plan and a budget. You can do it- keep the communication open

Continuing @john65pennington‘s thought, how did you not see this coming? I don’t think it’s manipulation; I don’t think it’s controlling. I think you forgot to discuss it early enough, and now, for one reason or another, you want out. Fine. Go.

Do you feel manipulated? The fact that you are asking this question says enough… Disagreeing on whether or not to have children can (and most likely, will) cause major resentment in a relationship further down the road.

@nikipedia Well, by her saying yes we can have children…. but imposing conditions that are impossible to meet.

Now she is just trying to appease you. She told you, flat out, she doesn’t want children, now it’s time to decide what you want to do about it.

I think you feel manipulated because you kind of came back to ask the same question. I stick by my first answer. She might be riding the waves of a good career, she might even change her mind, find career is not the be all and end all of everything. Neither is money. You either have to leave her because you want kids “now” wait and see or just love her either way.

@Athamas I think your wife’s request to stay with her children is a valid one. What confuses me is that she’s okay with not having any, but if she does have, she’ll want to give them so much love and caring, that she’ll take off work till they are of school age.

Moving on, you just have to show her this argument, that her compromise, isn’t one at all. Not everyone wants children – you can’t force that upon anyone, especially not the woman… And so it’s really back to your first post about her changing her mind on you. Find out if she really wants children or if she’s just appeasing you. I think @tinyfaery ‘s answer is very valid.

What are you going to do about it?

I also agree with @Just_Justine‘s ending statement.

Tell your wife yes to everything she demands. now, lets see what her answer will be.

If anything it sounds like a misunderstanding.

@john65pennington Yes, she is & always has been the controller. I’ve usually been ok with this as I’ve recognised that she is a real shining star, brilliant, genius levels of intelligence, cultured, beautiful. She is genuinely increadable, & the opportunity to be with had always felt a privelidge. With regards to not discussing it, we did. Before we got married. I had told her that I wanted to have a child, I was prepared to call off the wedding if she didn’t agree, but she changed he mind & said yes.

No, she’s just telling you why she feels she can’t have a child right now.

Would you rather she did have a child that she felt she couldn’t support properly?

That would be unfair on her and the child. Also, many of the problems the child and family will face will ultimately be a result of your pressuring your wife into having into having a baby. Fancy that pang of guilt every time you get a sense of inadequacy with regards to your child’s raising?

I agree with the @The_Idler – I’d much rather you not have a child than have a child whose mother never wanted them.

@trailsillustrated The problem being that she is not prepared to accept a drop in her living standards… she’s a Dr, I do admin… Just so you know it’s not that I’m a drop-out or anything. I’ve spent the last decade virtually bankrupting myself to get her through all her training etc.

@susanc I didn’t see it coming because when we talked about children, before we got married, she said yes….. & now she’s saying yes, but under conditions that are imposiible to achieve.

@Athamas Sounds to me like there are some resentment issues on both ends – you guys have bigger problems than this..you have to reconsider if you want to stay in the marriage..if you do, you have to put bitterness behind you

Athamas, i knew it. i have been around too many controlling people, to not recognize your situation. like you said, “she is a shining star and being with her was a priviledge”. you two talked about children before your marriage and you had to threaten her to bear a child or you would call off the wedding? what kind of deal was that??? not meaning to degrade you at all, but honestly, how have you lived in this situation for all these years? a marriage is suppose to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 50–50 and believe me, you and your wife are not even close to that percentage.

Your wife sounds like she does not want children, at minimum she does not want them in the situation she is in. If she ideally does want children, she might be angry that she is the breadwinner and will not be able to take time off of work when the baby is born. This is not your fault. I had a friend who wanted really to have the old fashioned role model of a husband who brought home the bacon, and she would fry it up in a pan. Turned out she was much better at making money, but she was annoyed. They had a baby, and she was more annoyed because he barely helped and was not even working full time. I am not saying that is what you would do, I am only saying that your wife obviously has a picture in her mind of how she wants things to be if she has a baby, maybe even she is disatisfied beyond that?

Have you thought about being the primary caregiver for the baby, would she be ok with that? Is it that she wants to be home with the baby? Or, is that she is very concerned about having a nervous breakdown if she has to work and care for the baby, do the laundry, clean the house, etc.

I think @tinyfaery might be right also. And @ChazMaz. Many possibilities for what is going on here. I feel like she is not really telling you the whole story.

@Athamas perhaps don’t over blow up her status. Most Financial Advisor’s earn six times more than “doctors”. Get your own life and career, stop patting her backside.

@Idknown We had discussed children early in our relationship, & she had always stated she didn’t want any. However before we got married I had a change of heart, probably thanks to a few new arrivals to my extended family. When we discussed it at that time & I explained how I felt she said yes, she’d love to have my child. Then, a little while ago she said we couldn’t have any. I can only think she was either lying before, or she’s gone back to her old position in the meantime.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I agree, & had she pointed this out before we got married I would not have married her….

@Athamas I can read :). I know your situation.

That last part of your response: I can only think she was either lying before, or she’s gone back to her old position in the meantime.

You have to find THAT out. But it seems you answered my question: you are sure she doesn’t want children now.

So – time to talk it out. If you can’t find middleground – you still have the original question: What are you going to do about it?

Also – props for @JLeslie – I didn’t even think of that! Definitely see if you can stop working to care for the baby as she goes on to her career. It’s about opportunity costs.

@Athamas no way do you know this for sure

@john65pennington In fairness to me, I didn’t quite put it like that when we talked about it. I was scared shitless before the chat as we had both always said we didn’t want children. I genuinely didn’t expect her to say yes & had fully prepared myself for the fall-out. I was delighted when she said she would like a child after-all. She actually said it was as if someone had given her permission to be normal…. I actually cried it was so touching. I agree, it would appear that we have some major issues, but it’s not easy discussing things like this with someone who stratospherically exceeds your intelligence…

@Athamas Doesn’t sound like you feel you’re her equal – this will be a problem with a child added in.

is her middle name God?

@JLeslie I had offered that as a possibility…. As a man I would love to provide for my family & not being able to is one of the hardest things I struggle with day-to-day. I try to reconcile it by telling myself that she is qualified now because of me supporting her through her training over the last decade, somehow it doesn’t really help…. however my wife has stated quite clearly that if she does have a baby, she would have to be the primary care giver, basically she said no to me looking after the baby.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’ve never met anyone who is….. or who even comes close frankly.

I think you knew in the begiinig, what your life was going to be like marrying a doctor. that you would have to take a second seat in your marriage, simply because she was on a higher level than you. i understand your situation. i was a police officer for 44 years and my wife had to take a second seat, just because of my demanding occupation. i was blessed with a woman that understood my job and and i think you have been in this same position for years. you did not state how long you two have been married. please let us know. john

One last thing. My husband and I have had a lot of trouble, infertility trouble, and we go back and forth on accepting that we will never have children to wanting children, to thinking about adoption, we are all over the map. I guess neither of us are desperate for a baby. I always thought I would have childen, and have regret thinking that I might never have them. My husband seems more resigned to accepting what seems to be our fate. Now, I am older, and have even more regret, because I always wanted to be a young mother. I find myself in a difficult place right now, fairly sad about my situation, and I am culpable in many ways. It does cause tension between my husband and me, even though he will go along with whatever I want to do.

My point is she might be on the fence really. Maybe she never really lied, but can see it going either way, no kids, or kids. Since she can go either way, maybe she prefers it to be ideal, what she would picture as ideal, to actually go ahead and have a baby. Other people who simply desperately want to have children don’t care if the situation is ideal, they just want the baby and will work out the rest as it comes.

@Athamas fine you hero-worship her, great..anyone else isn’t your issue..you are her husband, this is your future child you’re talking about.

I like the possible solution @JLeslie came up with, what is wrong with you being the primary carer? Does she not want to have children because of the child care issues? or because she really just does not want children? It sounds to me like you are having a tough time. This is omething that shoud have really been discussed properly before you married, however hindsight is wonderful thing!
I can only suggest that you keep talking and hopefully a solution will appear, if not then you really need to consider what you want from life, can you imagine life with out children of your own… you could be that wonderful uncle that spends loads of time with their neices and nephews, taking them to the park, football matches etc…
If the disire for having your own children is so strong you need to seriously consider your relationship and what you want from it.

I only hope you gain the strength to follow your heart and make the right decision for you and only you! After all you have to live with yourself longer than you have to live with your wife!

@Just_Justine Yeh, three yrs out of training & she’s a senior Dr in one of the countries top private hospitals, & within a years she’ll probably be a consultant…. I’m happy your employment consultant friends are doing so well, however, its not them that would have to replace my wife’s salary is it?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Hero worship…. absolutely not. She is all the things I said, she is also a deeply flawed & damaged individual with an increadably complex psychology. I’m just trying to convey some of the issues I’m facing…. cant say I was really expecting all the flack.

@Athamas Okay so do you love her?

@Athamas employment consultant friends? anyway I think you idolize her too much. If she doesn’t want a baby dump her. She can find another guy fast enough and I am sure you will find a girl you can relate to.It just seems as no one here can answer your question? Love her enough to stay with no kids – stay. Love her enough to wait – then wait, want kids more, then leave.

@Athamas Is it just the money, or is it that she does not want to step out of her career right now? It is drilled into us, men and women, that taking a break in a career can ruin a career. It is a horrible message. If we want to take a year off you have to explain the break in your resume. Some of this is changing.

@JLeslie It’s hard to say… I think I’ll stop trying to convey what a formidable person she is in a discussion, hasn’t exactly endeered myself to the good people of Fluther so far… she’s not an easy person to unravel at the best of times.

@Just_Justine Sorry, I meant Financial Advisor friends…. guess I have a few things on my mind right now…

@Athamas In your response to @JLeslie – It is hard to say. But that should be your real question now.

I feel like you’re avoiding the real question here: Will you leave her if she says no to children?

We can talk all about her good side, her bad side – but ultimately – that is the question.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Yes, I do.

@Idknown You’re right, that is the real issue, thank you for bringing this all back on track. In an ideal world she would have said this before we were married, & I would have called things off then. It’s not so straight forward now though, I’m married, I don’t want divorces under my belt like my parents have, I’ve invested so much in our life together over the last decade & don’t want to loose it all. I don’t know how strong the urge to procreate is in us, how can I know if this is something I can live with over the next 20–30-40yrs… I just don’t know.

@Athamas then as we said before you have a tough decision to make – stay with a person and accept that a child can severely exacerbate the already existing tensions or leave her

People are jumping too quickly to an ultimatum. You need to talk to her calmly, and tell her you really want to understand what she really wants, that having a baby has become important to you, and you want to see if there is something that can be worked out. That you are not trying to manipulate her (realize she may be asking the same question as you in your original question) but hope you both can come to an agreement. People change over time, priorities change. Dont jump to being angry at her, or assuming she was deceptive, especially if overall you are happy with your marriage and believe her to be a woman of integrity.

Ask her why she considers you to be inadequate as a parent.

@Athamas No problem buddy!

@JLeslie I don’t really think people are taking the ultimatum as the first attack. The importance I feel is not to say “Take it or leave it.” But to really question one self as to whether or not this is so important, that Athamas is willing to give all of it up in search of it.

He needs to get his priorities straight and then have the talk.

@Athamas I totally agree with you – that it’s not straight forward. I hope you do decide to stay as she sounds like a great wife, but I am too young to be giving you information on this topic. The only thing I can give you is clarity – Remember to think about the pros and cons and make the decision that you won’t regret.

@The_Idler Yes – you can ask her why you wouldn’t make a great primary care parent – but I suspect that you suspect (by asking if its manipulation) that she’s just using this as an excuse. However – it’ll make a might good point though :).

@Idknown Don’t get me wrong, having children can be a make or break thing for a relatonship for sure. It just seemed people were jumping quickly to that end. maybe I misunderstood. This is way up there at the top from what I have seen in relationships, whether or not to have children, each person wants to live in a different city, I have seen marriages break up over these issues.

@JLeslie Well – I agree – this is the stuff that will make or break. And I truly understand when Athamas says that it’s not so straight forward. There’s SOOO much that goes into getting ready for the ultimatum.

For all we know he’ll think about it and end it with “I really want children honey, but you are the most important, and I’m willing to give that up to continue loving you.”

The point is – if he thinks about in that depth and detail – I hope he will not live to regret it later on.

@Idknown I am so bad at handeling my own sitaution regarding children, I probably should not even give my opinion. :) I get paralyzed. Difficult decisions can be seen as two different things. One, if it is difficult that means the two options must be good ones, so you can’t really make a bad decision. Two, The fear of making a wrong decision can lead to no decision, which can lead to regrets. I tend to be in the number 2 category.

It sounds to me like the relationship you think you’ve been having for the last, however long, isn’t the one you’ve actually been having. Your marriage seems very one sided, with her being in the driving seat & you strapped in the child seat in the back. Even if this is a genuine change of mind it leaves you in a position where you have to sacrifice everything for her & her nothing for you, again unequal. Personally, yes, this does sound like manipulation to me. I suspect she told you she wanted kids to the ring on your finger, & now is saying no but maybe as a way to keep you sweet, while she gets what she wants…..

@JLeslie Nope – you should give your opinions freely. Heck – I’m too young to even think about this stuff. But I’m very good on logic and that has helped me plenty when it comes to solving sticky situations.

There really are no wrong decisions (although I may live to see one). Each decision places you on a different path, which gives you a new set of decisions. I realized when I was even younger that I couldn’t be everything I wanted to be. This is the fate of our world – scarcity. So you end up just seeing which things are actually VERY important to you and pick the paths that lead you there.

it’s not her fault that you don’t like her terms. it’s not her fault that she likes you. :)
it wouldn’t be your fault if you stopped liking her because of this either.

however.. i think your defeatist attitude has to go. who says you can’t quadruple your salary? you can if you find a way. you certainly can’t if you don’t start looking for a way.

Didn’t you guys talk about having children before you got married?

It doesn’t sound like manipulation to me. She is being very clear as to what she wants and what she needs.

This sounds like a excellent sidestep, and she will make a very good parent because of it. When my friend was 11, the neighbor found raccoons in the attic of their father’s office. Several of the boys got to keep a baby raccoon as a pet. My friend’s mother, not wanting to seem mean, told him, “You may have a raccoon if you build a cage for it yourself.” He never built the cage, and she never brought it up again.

To that end, invite your in-laws over. Tell them that you’ve been talking about that it’s time to give them grandchildren, and that your wife is concerned about being pregnant after age 35, and would like to stay home with the child for the first 5 years. Say you’ve working online to figure out the finances to make that happen, and that there’s a lot that you can both do without to enable your wife to be home during the formative years, although you think of yourself as very nurturing and capable.

And then watch what happens.

@Silhouette Yes we did, as I wrote above, & in the linked question. We had a very long & fraught conversation about it in which she said she would like to have a child. Which is why I was asking if people thought her position now was manipulation or a change of heart….

@PandoraBoxx Thank you for your response & for providing me with some actual options to consider.

@Athamas I’m sorry I missed the link. I still don’t think she is trying to manipulate you, I think she had a change of heart and is looking for a way to keep you in spite of this “deal breaker”. You both have some serious talking to do. Are you set on having children yourself? Is it a deal breaker? What if any are your “specific circumstances.”